![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by Kingfish on August 8, 2001, at 16:39:46
In reply to Re: Alcoholic Friend (very long post) » afatchic, posted by Marie1 on August 7, 2001, at 19:47:52
Marie:
I'm currently struggling with giving up alcohol, or at least limiting it to a glass of wine with dinner, but then I'm probably in denial if I do that, aren't I? ;) This is because I, too, feel it's "helping to destroy my life." I don't know if I'm an alcoholic, but I'm still drinking, even though I really want to "heal" and it's interferring with my medication. So I understand the struggle, and say "Kudos to you" for quitting all summer!!
I think Dreamer's advice is unfortunately the most sound. I don't know about giving an ultimatum - only you could decide that. Do you think he needs to seek professional help as well (a pdoc or such)?
- K.
Posted by Greg A. on August 8, 2001, at 16:43:52
In reply to Re: Alcoholic Friend (very long post) » afatchic, posted by Marie1 on August 7, 2001, at 19:47:52
Hi Marie,
We talked awhile back about long term relationships and how things get off track. Specifically, about whether we love our spouses or not. You didn’t mention before about the drinking part, at least not in the posts I read. In our family, if anyone has a problem with alcohol, it’s me. I self medicate with it but it has never really gotten out of hand. (in my opinion) My wife drinks, but infrequently, and then not very much. She comes from an alcoholic family (father) and is paranoid that she will follow in that path.
Why does your husband drink? I mean, I know it can be a disease, but is there a reason behind it? Why did you drink? Is your husband’s problem with alcohol part of why you question if you love him? You said before that you were pretty sure that your husband had little to do with your depression. The alcohol abuse part makes me question this.
Let me know if you want to talk about this further. Okay?Greg
Posted by Marie1 on August 8, 2001, at 17:33:23
In reply to Re: Alcoholic Friend (very long post) » Marie1, posted by Kingfish on August 8, 2001, at 16:39:46
Kingfish,
You brought up an interesting point about having a glass of wine on occasion. I have done that, but actually don't like to. My nose gets stuffy, my head foggy. Plus, even with one glass of wine, I feel it the next day. Sometimes I'm actually hung over or at the very least noticably less energetic the next day after only one or two glasses of wine. On the other hand, I really like the EFFECTS of alcohol; the way you feel when you continue to drink i.e., relaxed, increased sociability, lowered inhibitions, etc. So that's why I have to quit - it was too damaging physically, not to mention increased depression.
In my opinion, just having a glass of wine with dinner should be ok. If it helps you to relax or whatever, and you can stop at one, good on ya! I guess only you know if it's a problem. I'd be happy to offer support if you want/need it. Maybe knowing someone else is struggling at the same time can be helpful. Anyway, thanks for the kudos, and good luck to you.Marie
> Marie:
>
> I'm currently struggling with giving up alcohol, or at least limiting it to a glass of wine with dinner, but then I'm probably in denial if I do that, aren't I? ;) This is because I, too, feel it's "helping to destroy my life." I don't know if I'm an alcoholic, but I'm still drinking, even though I really want to "heal" and it's interferring with my medication. So I understand the struggle, and say "Kudos to you" for quitting all summer!!
>
> I think Dreamer's advice is unfortunately the most sound. I don't know about giving an ultimatum - only you could decide that. Do you think he needs to seek professional help as well (a pdoc or such)?
>
> - K.
Posted by Marie1 on August 8, 2001, at 18:23:55
In reply to Re: spouses and alcohol, posted by Greg A. on August 8, 2001, at 16:43:52
Hi Greg,
Thanks for taking an interest in my post. The reason I didn't mention alcohol being a problem in my marriage before, is - I didn't know it was one! Drinking with my husband (hardly ever at home unless we're having a party) has been a very long standing activity for us. There were times of more or less sobriety (my pregnancies, his hep. A), but it's something we've always regarded as fun - a way to amuse ourselves. Recently, I realized it was no longer fun. I don't know why it changed - (depression?); maybe it didn't, but my perception did. As I said in my earlier post, it took 18 mnths. of therapy to finally see things for what they are. My husband is still in denial - he may have more of a physiological addiction than I do. His mother was an alcoholic - I've witnessed her drinking straight from the bottle in the morning! She has since died from the disease, but she was definitely a hard core drinker. My in-laws marriage was a catastrophic sham, and in my darkest moments I'm afraid my husband will turn out to be like his mother, and I'll have to take care of him. I'm simply not willing to do that. I know we said "til death do us part...," and he's really been supportive of me through my depression, but I really don't want to live with an alcoholic.
Why does he drink? I never stopped to question that. He gets high as much as he drinks, so I guess he just likes getting buzzed. He would say it's the social part of it - he likes to be social, so he drinks. If I'm truthful with myself, I would say I like to drink, so I'm social.
Anyway, maybe alcohol played a part in my loss of feeling for my husband; I don't know. But I do know that, from my sober point of view, I'm quickly losing any remaining respect I had for him. And that's sad, because at least we liked each other.
Please understand too, the last way I want to come across is "holier than thou", or the stereotypic reformed alcoholic. But his inability to see that this disease really scares me and his unwillingness to change is killing us. Maybe it always was, but I didn't see it til now. Does this make any sense to you? I feel like I've been rambling, but it's been cathartic. Again, I appreciate your interest; this is a major problem for me and I'd love to get your input. Take care.Marie
> Hi Marie,
>
> We talked awhile back about long term relationships and how things get off track. Specifically, about whether we love our spouses or not. You didn’t mention before about the drinking part, at least not in the posts I read. In our family, if anyone has a problem with alcohol, it’s me. I self medicate with it but it has never really gotten out of hand. (in my opinion) My wife drinks, but infrequently, and then not very much. She comes from an alcoholic family (father) and is paranoid that she will follow in that path.
> Why does your husband drink? I mean, I know it can be a disease, but is there a reason behind it? Why did you drink? Is your husband’s problem with alcohol part of why you question if you love him? You said before that you were pretty sure that your husband had little to do with your depression. The alcohol abuse part makes me question this.
> Let me know if you want to talk about this further. Okay?
>
> Greg
Posted by Kingfish on August 8, 2001, at 18:40:43
In reply to Re: Alcoholic Friend (very long post) » Kingfish, posted by Marie1 on August 8, 2001, at 17:33:23
> Oh, my goodness, everything you brought up, is Exactly how it is for me now! Even a glass makes me feel yucky the next day, but I too enjoy the effects a great deal. It changes my mood! That's it. I especially would drink a lot when manic sometimes. That's been better lately, though.
I agree that it contributes to depression. It's not a good "drug."
We'll see. I'm going for awhile at least without it to give my meds a chance to work. :)
Good luck with your relationship. I wish I had some words of wisdom to share there.
- K.
Posted by Willow on August 8, 2001, at 21:27:36
In reply to Re: spouses and alcohol » Greg A., posted by Marie1 on August 8, 2001, at 18:23:55
>Recently, I realized it was no longer fun. I don't know why it changed - (depression?); maybe it didn't, but my perception did. As I said in my earlier post, it took 18 mnths. of therapy to finally see things for what they are. My husband is still in denial - he may have more of a physiological addiction than I do. His mother was an alcoholic - I've witnessed her drinking straight from the bottle in the morning! She has since died from the disease, but she was definitely a hard core drinker. My in-laws marriage was a catastrophic sham, and in my darkest moments I'm afraid my husband will turn out to be like his mother, and I'll have to take care of him. I'm simply not willing to do that. I know we said "til death do us part...," and he's really been supportive of me through my depression, but I really don't want to live with an alcoholic.
> Anyway, maybe alcohol played a part in my loss of feeling for my husband;Marie
Your story sounds like mine, the only difference was that I stopped drinking after the wedding. I was a teenager and it was fun to go out drink and dance. I had a picture of what I thought life would be like. I've always been independent, so before the children I traveled a lot on my own. His drinking then didn't bother me.I've sat on the fence too long. Then there is the issue of the vows and the fact that he has helped me out with so much. Am I being selfish? After all no person is perfect. But over time it is beginning to affect his character. It is becoming more "me, me." As long as everything goes along his line of thinking all is fine. Last week he threatened to leave. I was happy, but the next day he was like nothing happened. It's starting to remind me of the abusive relationship I left as a teenager, except just verbal jabs.
I guess I'm helping myself here more than you. Just looking for an easy solution when there isn't an easy street.
Weeping Willow
Posted by Marie1 on August 9, 2001, at 7:43:12
In reply to Re: Alcoholic Friend (very long post) » Marie1, posted by Kingfish on August 8, 2001, at 18:40:43
Kingfish,
Did you ever notice that *most* people don't react to smaller amounts of alcohol the way you and I do? Yeah, almost everyone gets a hangover after really getting smashed, but they can have a few drinks without feeling bad the next day. I think my body tolerates alcohol like it would an allergen (?). I mean, I'm way allergic to it. I used to think of that as "god's way to keep me from being an alcoholic". Huh! So much for that theory! Actually, I feel loads better since quitting - more energy, and I even sleep better at night. Right now, that's enough positive reinforcement to keep from imbibing.
Good luck to you too!Marie
> > Oh, my goodness, everything you brought up, is Exactly how it is for me now! Even a glass makes me feel yucky the next day, but I too enjoy the effects a great deal. It changes my mood! That's it. I especially would drink a lot when manic sometimes. That's been better lately, though.
>
> I agree that it contributes to depression. It's not a good "drug."
>
> We'll see. I'm going for awhile at least without it to give my meds a chance to work. :)
>
> Good luck with your relationship. I wish I had some words of wisdom to share there.
>
> - K.
Posted by Kingfish on August 9, 2001, at 7:59:23
In reply to Re: spouses and alcohol, posted by Willow on August 8, 2001, at 21:27:36
> >Willow:
I'm in a Really different situation than you are, but I just went through a major marriage renovation (and still majorly renovating, and occasionally majorally questioning) - I thought I was going to leave my husband last spring after 9 years.
If you have any interest in talking about it, please feel free to e-mail at doghappy@ivillage.com. If not, no offense taken. :)
- K.
(Sorry, eavesdropping again.)
===
Posted by Marie1 on August 9, 2001, at 8:03:48
In reply to Re: spouses and alcohol, posted by Willow on August 8, 2001, at 21:27:36
Willow,
I didn't realize from your previous post that your husband drinks too much. Has this been a major problem in your marriage?
As for being selfish, by husband has always been that way - he'll do what he wants to do regardless of others. I've been told that that's a typical characteristic of children of alcoholics.
I think you and I may be getting hung up on the idea of supporting our spouse in their disease, as they did/are doing for us. But I see a big difference here: my husband doesn't seem to want to get better. I'm not going to support him in his efforts to kill himself, slowly, but steadily. You're right - there is no easy path. But it helps hashing it out with others. Take care.Marie
> Marie
> Your story sounds like mine, the only difference was that I stopped drinking after the wedding. I was a teenager and it was fun to go out drink and dance. I had a picture of what I thought life would be like. I've always been independent, so before the children I traveled a lot on my own. His drinking then didn't bother me.
>
> I've sat on the fence too long. Then there is the issue of the vows and the fact that he has helped me out with so much. Am I being selfish? After all no person is perfect. But over time it is beginning to affect his character. It is becoming more "me, me." As long as everything goes along his line of thinking all is fine. Last week he threatened to leave. I was happy, but the next day he was like nothing happened. It's starting to remind me of the abusive relationship I left as a teenager, except just verbal jabs.
>
> I guess I'm helping myself here more than you. Just looking for an easy solution when there isn't an easy street.
>
> Weeping Willow
Posted by Greg A. on August 9, 2001, at 14:45:57
In reply to Re: spouses and alcohol » Greg A., posted by Marie1 on August 8, 2001, at 18:23:55
Marie,
It’s tough when a relationship heads downhill and there doesn’t seem to be a way to stop it. I question whether I am thinking rationally about my relationship with my wife. I know that when I am in a depressed cycle my thought processes seem to be on the irrational side, but lately I have been feeling pretty good and I still wonder if I want to keep on trying to make things work. Then I question just how much effort I am really putting into making it work. Not much I think.
Your description of your husband only being home when there’s a party does not seem like a good way to have a solid foundation to re-build things. I, too, think about all the past good memories with my wife, but that accumulation of thoughts does little to make me happy right now, and I know that it won’t hold up for the future either. Is your husband looking for something to give meaning to his life? It sounds like he is trying to avoid some critical issues by being high a lot of the time. In the past five years I have really questioned a lot of my goals. I guess you could say it’s a sort of mid-life crisis. I am not where I thought I would be at this point in my life, though things could be a lot worse. I am working at trying to slow down and enjoy things more, but it’s hard. Your husband seems to be escaping into a haze. I admire you for not choosing to follow. It seems to me that you are also searching for meaning and having a hard time. I have read that depression is often a signal to take stock and make some changes. Life’s way of saying ‘stop right here and don’t continue the way you have been going.’ It sure is hard to see what the new path might be though.
You cannot make a relationship work by yourself. You have to have cooperation from the other party and even if you don’t totally agree on what needs to change, you can make progress by talking. You guys are not working together are you?
Just some miscellaneous thoughts from someone equally as confused by life.Take care
Greg
Posted by Marie1 on August 11, 2001, at 8:27:42
In reply to Re: spouses and alcohol, posted by Greg A. on August 9, 2001, at 14:45:57
Hi Greg.
I think you misunderstood about drinking at home. I meant to say my husband and I hardly ever drink at home. We always went out. Now that I'm not drinking, he goes out alone. Last night he left around 8 PM and didn't return til about 3 AM. I told him (once again) that this behavior was UNACCEPTABLE to me, and he appeared to have heard me this time. He agreed to stop. We'll see. Maybe what got his attention was I used the "D" word. We never bandied about the idea of divorce lightly. I know he doesn't see a problem with what he does, so I really don't hold out much hope for long-term change, but we'll see...
In your case, why specifically are you thinking about giving up your marriage? I mean, besides the lack of loving feelings. Have you tried to get that back - counseling, or whatever? (I apologise if you addressed this in earlier posts, but my brain's a veritable seive these days!) Do you and your wife argue all the time? How do you think she feels about your marriage? My husband may be clueless as to how I'm really feeling because I haven't actually told him. Do you and your wife discuss breaking up?
I think what you said about depression being an eye opener about what's really going on in our lives is interesting. Maybe that's what is happening with both of us. I don't really think my husband is searching for something. His partying is a habit that he's been developing for about 25 yrs. I think he's actually quite content with life. He's just never grown up. What was fun for a lot of people during college years and early twenties never lost it's appeal for him. And only recently for me. I wonder why this is? Why do some people mature and others don't? Sounds like a question for my pdoc, but I think I fired him this week. Bad move - now I feel more alone than ever.
Okay, here's a sticky question - are you still sexually attracted to your wife? I ask because I know that I'm not really attracted to my husband anymore, although physically he hasn't changed all that much in the last 20 yrs. I guess it's more about how I feel about him as a person. If that desire is gone, and the romance is gone, is it possible to get it back? To me, that's everything.
So, enough ruminating. Hope to hear back from you.Marie
> Marie,
>
> It’s tough when a relationship heads downhill and there doesn’t seem to be a way to stop it. I question whether I am thinking rationally about my relationship with my wife. I know that when I am in a depressed cycle my thought processes seem to be on the irrational side, but lately I have been feeling pretty good and I still wonder if I want to keep on trying to make things work. Then I question just how much effort I am really putting into making it work. Not much I think.
> Your description of your husband only being home when there’s a party does not seem like a good way to have a solid foundation to re-build things. I, too, think about all the past good memories with my wife, but that accumulation of thoughts does little to make me happy right now, and I know that it won’t hold up for the future either. Is your husband looking for something to give meaning to his life? It sounds like he is trying to avoid some critical issues by being high a lot of the time. In the past five years I have really questioned a lot of my goals. I guess you could say it’s a sort of mid-life crisis. I am not where I thought I would be at this point in my life, though things could be a lot worse. I am working at trying to slow down and enjoy things more, but it’s hard. Your husband seems to be escaping into a haze. I admire you for not choosing to follow. It seems to me that you are also searching for meaning and having a hard time. I have read that depression is often a signal to take stock and make some changes. Life’s way of saying ‘stop right here and don’t continue the way you have been going.’ It sure is hard to see what the new path might be though.
> You cannot make a relationship work by yourself. You have to have cooperation from the other party and even if you don’t totally agree on what needs to change, you can make progress by talking. You guys are not working together are you?
> Just some miscellaneous thoughts from someone equally as confused by life.
>
> Take care
>
> Greg
Posted by Willow on August 11, 2001, at 9:46:04
In reply to Re: spouses and alcohol » Greg A., posted by Marie1 on August 11, 2001, at 8:27:42
> Okay, here's a sticky question - are you still sexually attracted to your wife? I ask because I know that I'm not really attracted to my husband anymore, although physically he hasn't changed all that much in the last 20 yrs. I guess it's more about how I feel about him as a person. If that desire is gone, and the romance is gone, is it possible to get it back? To me, that's everything.
Marie
I think you hit the nail on the head! (Is that a pun?) I don't know if it is the same for men, but I do believe a woman needs a connection with her mate. Without the emotional connection we start staring at the ceiling.
Physical attributes don't have much to do with sexual attraction for myself. (Well maybe it isn't sexual, more a warm cuddly feeling.) Anybody that is smiling and having fun I like. And then let the poor soul give me any praise, (thanks to effexor) I'll lap it up like a little puppy, friend for life.
So I guess if we're not connecting emotionally with our spouses, they start to look less desirable.
Posted by Marie1 on August 11, 2001, at 19:32:15
In reply to Re: spouses and alcohol, posted by Willow on August 11, 2001, at 9:46:04
Willow,
Yeah, I think you're right. I wonder if Greg would agree. Greg?? I also agree about the physical attributes; to me it's always been more the person's character that creates the sense of sexual attraction. I guess (some) men are different that way. Once again, there's proof of the superiority of the feminine sex! :-)Marie
> > Okay, here's a sticky question - are you still sexually attracted to your wife? I ask because I know that I'm not really attracted to my husband anymore, although physically he hasn't changed all that much in the last 20 yrs. I guess it's more about how I feel about him as a person. If that desire is gone, and the romance is gone, is it possible to get it back? To me, that's everything.
>
> Marie
>
> I think you hit the nail on the head! (Is that a pun?) I don't know if it is the same for men, but I do believe a woman needs a connection with her mate. Without the emotional connection we start staring at the ceiling.
>
> Physical attributes don't have much to do with sexual attraction for myself. (Well maybe it isn't sexual, more a warm cuddly feeling.) Anybody that is smiling and having fun I like. And then let the poor soul give me any praise, (thanks to effexor) I'll lap it up like a little puppy, friend for life.
>
> So I guess if we're not connecting emotionally with our spouses, they start to look less desirable.
>
Posted by Willow on August 11, 2001, at 19:34:49
In reply to Re: spouses and alcohol » Willow, posted by Marie1 on August 11, 2001, at 19:32:15
> Willow,
> Yeah, I think you're right. I wonder if Greg would agree. Greg?? I also agree about the physical attributes; to me it's always been more the person's character that creates the sense of sexual attraction. I guess (some) men are different that way. Once again, there's proof of the superiority of the feminine sex! :-)
>
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Okay, here's a sticky question - are you still sexually attracted to your wife? I ask because I know that I'm not really attracted to my husband anymore, although physically he hasn't changed all that much in the last 20 yrs. I guess it's more about how I feel about him as a person. If that desire is gone, and the romance is gone, is it possible to get it back? To me, that's everything.
> >
> > Marie
> >
> > I think you hit the nail on the head! (Is that a pun?) I don't know if it is the same for men, but I do believe a woman needs a connection with her mate. Without the emotional connection we start staring at the ceiling.
> >
> > Physical attributes don't have much to do with sexual attraction for myself. (Well maybe it isn't sexual, more a warm cuddly feeling.) Anybody that is smiling and having fun I like. And then let the poor soul give me any praise, (thanks to effexor) I'll lap it up like a little puppy, friend for life.
> >
> > So I guess if we're not connecting emotionally with our spouses, they start to look less desirable.
> >
Posted by Kingfish on August 12, 2001, at 15:19:29
In reply to Re: spouses and alcohol » Willow, posted by Marie1 on August 11, 2001, at 19:32:15
> Willow,
> Yeah, I think you're right. I wonder if Greg would agree. Greg?? I also agree about the physical attributes; to me it's always been more the person's character that creates the sense of sexual attraction. I guess (some) men are different that way. Once again, there's proof of the superiority of the feminine sex! :-)
>
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Okay, here's a sticky question - are you still sexually attracted to your wife? I ask because I know that I'm not really attracted to my husband anymore, although physically he hasn't changed all that much in the last 20 yrs. I guess it's more about how I feel about him as a person. If that desire is gone, and the romance is gone, is it possible to get it back? To me, that's everything.
> >
> > Marie
> >
> > I think you hit the nail on the head! (Is that a pun?) I don't know if it is the same for men, but I do believe a woman needs a connection with her mate. Without the emotional connection we start staring at the ceiling.
> >
> > Physical attributes don't have much to do with sexual attraction for myself. (Well maybe it isn't sexual, more a warm cuddly feeling.) Anybody that is smiling and having fun I like. And then let the poor soul give me any praise, (thanks to effexor) I'll lap it up like a little puppy, friend for life.
> >
> > So I guess if we're not connecting emotionally with our spouses, they start to look less desirable.
> >
Posted by Greg A. on August 13, 2001, at 13:19:30
In reply to Poor Greg ;) (np), posted by Kingfish on August 12, 2001, at 15:19:29
Hi! I didn’t realize I had positioned myself as the defender of all males. All I can do is say how I feel or think and that is probably not very representative of others.
My wife is not as physically attractive to me as she used to be. But I don’t think that’s the make or break point in our relationship. (I suppose even I may have changed a little over the twenty plus years we have been married) The emotional closeness is definitely not there anymore though. Where did it go? The stress of kids, careers, goals not reached . . . I don’t know. I think, in general, men are attracted to whatever they perceive as good looking in a woman – at least on a primordial level. For me, if there’s no substance there, I quickly lose interest. The urge to reproduce is just not that strong. What do I find attractive, looks aside? Wit. Compassion, Understanding. Intelligence. That’s why I married my wife. All those things are still there but some ingredient has gone missing, or I am not looking as hard as I used to. I read somewhere that serial monogamy is the normal state for humans. Not one partner for life but one partner after another – just one at a time though. This seems to be the path a lot of men go down. Do we not grow up and mature? Do we try to retain our youth by collecting a trophy bride? Probably. Marie – maybe you’re right. Your husband is still in party mode from college. And you are not. Something has made you examine that life and decide to change. I know lots of men like that. They have left wives and children because they got in the way of having ‘fun’. I have a friend who left his young family for another woman. He told me ‘Watch out what you wish for – it just might come true.’ So I will consider things very carefully and try not to act impulsively. I will take my time with this important decision. I sure wish I had a clue as to what makes me tick though.
Posted by Willow on August 13, 2001, at 13:52:11
In reply to Re: Poor Greg ;) (np), posted by Greg A. on August 13, 2001, at 13:19:30
*I sure wish I had a clue as to what makes me tick though.
I think what makes us click is the key. For myself being able to maintain some form of independence on my own is key, but feeling the way I do right now I'm limited by how much I can do. Finding another partner would not improve this.
Having said that we have grown in different directions, though my spouse is quite content with the status quo, only change he would like is for myself to be earning a paycheque or for us to have more finances. For myself I would like a spouse who takes more interest in my activities and thoughts. Someone to share with.
I know that is a contradiction of what I said earlier, but it would be nice to find the right balance that would leave both of us happy and content.
I've become a roommate who preforms sexual favours. This is not how I imagined marriage, but perhaps I want too much. Some friends who have been married about the same length say their spouses aren't even interested in the physcial aspects of the relationship anymore.
Searching Willow
Posted by Kingfish on August 13, 2001, at 13:54:04
In reply to Re: Poor Greg ;) (np), posted by Greg A. on August 13, 2001, at 13:19:30
Sorry to jump in, but just a quick note from a female - I often don't feel like being monogamous at all (with one person for the rest of my life). Have been married nine years and have recently gone through a mjor upheaval, and am still going through it, too. When I finally realized that I have always felt "odd" about monogamy, I felt better.
I think society expects women to want a lifetime monogamous relationship, and that's not always the case. It doesn't mean you don't have one, it just means, you have to accept that desire is there.
I think your explanation fits me pretty well, Greg, the desire for serial monogamy.
Thinking about actually leaving my husband did a lot for me - it opened up new possibilities that I never thought of before, because I thought I "shouldn't." I'm still struggling. I don't have children, so it makes it easier for me, I think.
Getting away for awhile, even a night or two at a time is imperative, so you can get a different perspective. I went on a 10 day trip to visit friends and my parents. Without that, I don't know what would have happened...
- K.
Posted by Greg A. on August 13, 2001, at 14:19:24
In reply to Monogamy? » Greg A., posted by Kingfish on August 13, 2001, at 13:54:04
Well there are certainly some common threads between us married men and women. The desire for ‘more’. The need for understanding and communication with our spouses. My wife (Leslie) is different from me in some fundamental ways. She likes to have people around all the time. I like time on my own. If I want to be away from her, she takes it as meaning I don’t want her around when all it is, is me satisfying my requirement for space. I also read somewhere that we look for a couple of things in a partner. Our semi-conscious level looks for complements to our own personality. I looked for someone who was more outgoing and social, because I wasn’t. Leslie looked for stability I think, because her family was unstable. Unconsciously, we look for the very things we may have identified in our lives as being undesirable. We are familiar with them. Children of alcoholics marry alcoholics. Children of strict and domineering parents often find domineering and even abusive spouses. Not all the time – but enough times that I am convinced it is something that does happen.
The desire to have new relationships is common. The initial time of getting to know someone is the exciting time. Everything seems new. You ignore all the bad habits and see only the new and interesting. One thing with men – anytime we get to know someone new and female – we always try to make it a sexual thing. Do women have male friends on the same level as their regular friends? What’s the line? Women use sex to get love and men use love to get sex. Something like that.
Enough rambling for now. Perhaps before I’m too old, I’ll have a better idea of who and what I am.
Posted by Marie1 on August 13, 2001, at 17:04:14
In reply to Re: Monogamy?, posted by Greg A. on August 13, 2001, at 14:19:24
You know, it really doesn't seem "natural" that humans are expected to be monogomous for life. People change (duh), and spouses may or may not change in the same direction. I used to consider myself happy or at least content in my marriage. But these days, I want to be married to a grown-up. I don't see how we can stay married and faithful to each other if my husband won't grow up with me.
OTOH, I really believe that nature must have meant for us humans to be monogomous for life because we have children. I don't think you can over estimate the emotional devastation to a child when his parents divorce. Unless, of course, if it's an abusive situation. Personally, I have difficulty imagining getting a divorce from my husband because of my kids. They don't deserve that; it's not their fault their parents have become different people than when they were first married. My kids have enough problems of their own without adding to them by divorcing their father. So as long as my kids are still at home and I feel the way I do, I guess I'm stuck.
Greg, in answer to your question re: having friendships with men (I can only answer for myself of course), I have several male friends with whom I am fairly close. These friendships are platonic, but I think I can say there is ALWAYS some level of sexual tension, at least on my part. The sexual tension isn't a bad thing; it's an awareness of the other person being a man. And vice versa. I'm not sure this will make sense to anyone reading this post, but I can't think of any other way to say it. And my youngest is irritatingly reminding me that I promised to take her to the mall, so enough esoteric rambling for now.Marie
> Well there are certainly some common threads between us married men and women. The desire for ‘more’. The need for understanding and communication with our spouses. My wife (Leslie) is different from me in some fundamental ways. She likes to have people around all the time. I like time on my own. If I want to be away from her, she takes it as meaning I don’t want her around when all it is, is me satisfying my requirement for space. I also read somewhere that we look for a couple of things in a partner. Our semi-conscious level looks for complements to our own personality. I looked for someone who was more outgoing and social, because I wasn’t. Leslie looked for stability I think, because her family was unstable. Unconsciously, we look for the very things we may have identified in our lives as being undesirable. We are familiar with them. Children of alcoholics marry alcoholics. Children of strict and domineering parents often find domineering and even abusive spouses. Not all the time – but enough times that I am convinced it is something that does happen.
> The desire to have new relationships is common. The initial time of getting to know someone is the exciting time. Everything seems new. You ignore all the bad habits and see only the new and interesting. One thing with men – anytime we get to know someone new and female – we always try to make it a sexual thing. Do women have male friends on the same level as their regular friends? What’s the line? Women use sex to get love and men use love to get sex. Something like that.
> Enough rambling for now. Perhaps before I’m too old, I’ll have a better idea of who and what I am.
Posted by Greg A. on August 13, 2001, at 18:14:45
In reply to Re: Monogamy?, posted by Marie1 on August 13, 2001, at 17:04:14
Staying together for the kids. I bet that’s something you swore you’d never ever do. It's different when you have them though, isn’t it? I can’t begin to imagine the unhappiness that would result from splitting up my family. Maybe that’s someone’s way of making us think twice about walking away from a marriage. After twenty or so years of life together, the status quo probably deserves some lengthy consideration before changing everything.
You are right. People do change and grow at different rates. However, I think we are often better at just leaving our problems and differences behind, than at trying to work them out. It requires so much less effort just to walk away. I think you (and possibly me) have a conscience that demands you make the effort and not just opt for the easy way out. That’s good, I think. I do hope that we both end up happy though.
Posted by Marie1 on August 14, 2001, at 7:29:15
In reply to Patience is a virtue??, posted by Greg A. on August 13, 2001, at 18:14:45
> Staying together for the kids. I bet that’s something you swore you’d never ever do. It's different when you have them though, isn’t it? I can’t begin to imagine the unhappiness that would result from splitting up my family. Maybe that’s someone’s way of making us think twice about walking away from a marriage. After twenty or so years of life together, the status quo probably deserves some lengthy consideration before changing everything.
Well put, Greg. I don't want to come across as a martyr and I'm not one to think kids can't handle some diversity in their lives. Nor am I guilty of always putting my kids first, to the exclusion of all other considerations. But they're really so innocent in their parent's problems, and I don't think they should be vicitimized by our - dare I say - selfishness? I see the kids of my friends who are separating and divorcing and it breaks my heart how they react. Then I think, well maybe I've never been as miserable in my marriage as they are. My best friend and business partner has been in this process for the past few years. She has three little ones under the age of twelve who are confused, frightened, insecure, etc. And I think my friend has handled things well as far as trying to prepare her kids. Her separation has been fairly amicable, although her husband was against the idea at first. I've seen her utterly miserable and can't really relate to that degree of unhappiness. Yet. Maybe that day will come, but, yes, right now I'll stay together for my kids. And maybe for myself, too. We can always have hope, can't we?
Marie
> You are right. People do change and grow at different rates. However, I think we are often better at just leaving our problems and differences behind, than at trying to work them out. It requires so much less effort just to walk away. I think you (and possibly me) have a conscience that demands you make the effort and not just opt for the easy way out. That’s good, I think. I do hope that we both end up happy though.
Posted by JennyR on August 14, 2001, at 19:26:06
In reply to Re: Patience is a virtue?? » Greg A., posted by Marie1 on August 14, 2001, at 7:29:15
Man is this all too close to home. I have been unhappy in my marriage for a very long time (17th anniversary coming up). I stay because of the kids, because I don't want it to look bad to the relatives, and because my husband would be devastated - he's a very dependent type. The result is I'm miserable. there's not the slightest doubt in my mind that if this were a boyfriend, I'd be outta there in a flash. What I was willing to settle for then, and what I feel I deserve now are very different.
I feel hopelessly trapped. Glad to know there are other prisoners in this prison, in different cells.
The other question it brings up for me is, does th lousy marriage which meets none of my needs cause the depression, of does the depression make me dissatisfied with the marriage? No way to tell.
Posted by Greg A. on August 15, 2001, at 15:51:26
In reply to Too close to home, posted by JennyR on August 14, 2001, at 19:26:06
Hi Jenny,
I’m not sure if I should respond to your thoughts today or not. It has been a lousy week for me and I may be much too negative.
My wife has asked the chicken vs. egg question on more than one occasion. Am I depressed because of her or are we getting farther apart because I am depressed.
What do you like about your husband? How have you changed so that you feel you need something more? I am a very steady type despite the depression. Nothing flashy. Just a person with a conscience that doesn't walk away from responsibilities. Too much so maybe as I often feel that my responsibilities extend too far for my own good. My wife wants a partner who is more attentive to her needs. For example – I don’t go out with the boys and leave her alone. I just don’t go out at all and she still feels alone. I think she wishes I would do some things away from her as long as that meant the time we were together was better.
I’m just curious what makes a lousy marriage from your point of view and why you settled for something so different than what you need now. Maybe I’ll find something that will help me make some sense out of where I am and give me an idea of what to do. I don’t think at this point, doing nothing is an option for me.Greg
Posted by Willow on August 15, 2001, at 16:41:09
In reply to Too close to home, posted by JennyR on August 14, 2001, at 19:26:06
> I stay because of the kids, and because I don't want to hurt husband. The result is I'm miserable. There's not the slightest doubt in my mind that if this were a boyfriend, I'd be outta there in a flash. What I was willing to settle for then, and what I feel I deserve now are very different.
The other question it brings up for me is, does the lousy marriage which meets none of my needs cause the depression, of does the depression make me dissatisfied with the marriage? No way to tell.I just changed a few words and I'm in the same boat Jenny. I do love my husband, but besides looking after our home and a physical relationship there's nothing else here for me. He's supportive and helpful, plus he does have his bad points. He's miserable/grouchy when he wakes up, plus he doesn't do anything with the children besides feed, etc. Plus he has little interest in social activities unless there is alcohol involved.
For myself I think the depression has made the relationship worse, making me more dependent thus I'm more able to see his faults. If I was busy about my own business I would be happier thus less likely to be seeking blame.
Just some of my many opinions.
Willow
ps been together 16 years maybe it's what comes after the 7 year itch in less than perfect relationships
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