Posted by JLx on November 10, 2003, at 6:49:03
I've been following the discussion on other threads, checked the archives, been doing some reading and am still confused about folic acid and TMG too.
On the Alternative Mental Health site, in comments by Dr. Walsh of the Pfeiffer Clinic, http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walshQZ.htm#Ta, he says for the under-methylated (as I think I am, due to my positive response to SAMe in the past),
"Treatment focuses on the use of ANTIFOLATES such as calcium, methionine, SAMe, magnesium, zinc, TMG, omega-3 essential oils, B6, inositol, and A, C and E. The dose of inositol is 500 to 1000mg. Choline is anti-dopaminergic and often makes undermethylated patients worse. Also bad are DMAE, copper and FOLIC ACID." (my emphasis)
From Mindboosters by Dr. Ray Sahelian, http://www.mind-boosters.com/chapter_10.html
"Both these vitamins [FOLIC ACID and B12] occupy a key position in the remethylation and synthesis of S-adenosyl-methionine (SAMe), a major methyl donor in the central nervous system. Therefore, deficiencies in either of these vitamins leads to a decrease in SAMe and an increase in homocysteine, which can be critical in the aging brain." (my emphasis)
Elsewhere on that site, Dr. Walsh again,
"The mechanisms of action of SAMe and TMG are quite different. Most of our methyl groups come from dietary methionine. The methionine is converted to SAMe in a reaction with magnesium, ATP, methionine-adenosyl-transferase, and water. SAMe is a relatively unstable carrier of methyl groups and is the primary source of methyl for most reactions in the body. Once the methyl group has been donated, the residual molecule is s-adenosyl-homocysteine which converts to homocysteine. TMG (betaine) is a biochemical which can donate a methyl group to homocysteine, thus converting it back to methionine. The TMG route is secondary to the 5-methyl-tetrahydroFOLATE/B-12 reaction which the primary route for restoring methionine. Methionine and SAMe supplements directly introduce new methyl groups into the body. TMG can provide a methyl group only to the extent that there is insufficient FOLATE/B-12 to do the job. In some persons, the methylation effect of TMG is very minimal. In addition, persons who are undermethylated have a SAM cycle which is "spinning very slowly", much like a superhighway with little traffic. The answer for them is NOT to more efficiently convert the small amount of homocysteine to methionine (using TMG), but rather to directly introduce more methionine or SAMe into the body. A small percentage of persons with sufficient dietary methionine cannot efficiently produce SAMe --- These persons need supplemental SAMe, and not methionine or TMG and are the exception to the rule. In most other cases, methionine supplements alone are sufficient. TMG is a great way to treat individuals with dangerously high homocysteine levels. TMG can be very useful in augmenting methionine therapy along with B-6/P-5-P , serine, etc. The challenge is to supply enough methyl groups to help the patient, without creating dangerously high levels of homocysteine. Use of TMG is an "insurance policy" against this happening. (Jan 22, 2003)" (my emphasis)
So, is folic acid contraindicated for the undermethylated or not?
I'm not sure I understood that distinction about the slow SAMe cycle, but what I concluded was, not knowing if I'm a "slow cycler" or not that I'd hedge my bets and take both TMG AND methionine...using the TMG to counteract homocysteine for one thing, especially if I decrease folic acid. (I had a great result with SAMe, but found it too expensive and when I was taking it as my only anti-depressant remedy, that it pooped out after about 2 months.) I recall Larry's explanation to Ron Hill re why this might happen and concluded that with methionine, it might not.
Should I be concerned about the folic acid in my B-complex? Is 400 or 800 mg per day a good amount or is it contraindicated? (I don't eat green leafy veggies, so I figure my dietary amount is pretty neglible.) Is this something one could evaluate "in real time" with trial and error? (i.e. take some TODAY, feel better or worse TODAY)
Thanks,
JL
poster:JLx
thread:278139
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/278139.html