![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 66. Go back in thread:
Posted by bil on January 11, 2007, at 20:31:00
In reply to Jealousy, Seperateness, NewYrs, Now -long***TrigSH, posted by ElaineM on January 11, 2007, at 15:59:49
Elaine-
I don't know how to get these quote things to work, so I can't pick out bits of your original post to refer to... but all I want to say is that this man is TROUBLE!!! NOT you!He sounds like he is being very manipulative and controlling- and very scary... he is playing on how low you feel about yourself to give himself power.
Do NOT feel sorry for him- and I'm sorry if I sound like I'm ranting, but there is no way in h**l this person should be calling himself a therapist. I might be a messed up individual myself, but I've taken enough counselling courses myself to know that this man has broken every ethical rule in the book.
Get on the phone to your lady T. and tell her exactly what he is doing to you... please, please please! You are NOT bad, and you do not deserve this... your intuition makes you 'want to throw up' at some of the things he has said to you- well, that is your inner wisdom telling you that this guy is NOT out for your best interests!
He is NOT weak, and he is NOT fragile... tapeworms might be little things, but PARASITES CAUSE DAMAGE!
This man is not a therapist... he's botulism. Honestly! ! !
Bil
Posted by Dinah on January 11, 2007, at 20:41:25
In reply to Jealousy, Seperateness, NewYrs, Now -long***TrigSH, posted by ElaineM on January 11, 2007, at 15:59:49
I think you know he really isn't acting as your therapist any more. He hasn't been for a while. He's acting as a suitor. Is this what you want in a suitor? People are at their best when they're wooing, and this doesn't sound all that best. I can't imagine what he'd be like once he considered you his.
I know how hard it is to break off long term relationships. I do understand that. But you need to find someone to help you with all this. A real therapist. I know you've been having trouble finding someone to be your therapist, but don't give up.
You're worth more than to give up on yourself.
Posted by muffled on January 11, 2007, at 22:14:29
In reply to Re: Jealousy, Seperateness, NewYrs, Now -long***Tr » ElaineM, posted by Dinah on January 11, 2007, at 20:41:25
can we be supportive of elaine?
I am saying this with the utmost humility, I KNOW I am an idiot LOTSA the time.
I have been reading Elaines threads from the start.
I don't know that its helpful to bash her T too much anymore.
Personally, I take from it that there's a great deal of caring, and yes outrage. That people care enough bout El that they hate her T for hurting her. I think thats one of the special things of babble, how we want to watch out for each other.
Its hard to see a fellow babbler being hurt.
But at the same time, I would like to make my fellow babbler comfortable enough to post and receive support.
I'm not sure what we can do best, to be supportive of El?
Maybe she has some ideas herself of what we might best say that would be helpful to her.
For all I know maybe it IS helpful to bash her T. I dunno. El will have to tell us.
Cuz i think thats what we all want. We want to help SOMEhow, and its hard to with just words.
So El if your reading this, know that I (and I beleive I could say in honesty WE) care. You are one of us. And I hope you can be OK. And mebbe you can help us, by maybe telling us how best you feel,that we can be supportive to you. Cuz you are one of us.
So in NO way am I trying to make ANYONE feel bad. I am delighted that so many are supportive of El.
I am just curious as to how we might be best supportive of her.
I REALLY hope I am not speaking out of turn here......
I feel all who have posted did so with kindness and caring,
((((Babblers))), but its hard sometimes isn't it?
I want to be supportive of you El,cuz I care, but I'm not sure how?
Mebbe like Job in the bible, just listen and commiserate? I don't know, and I want to help you carry your burden somehow...
((((Elaine)))
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by ElaineM on January 11, 2007, at 22:33:19
In reply to Re: Jealousy, Seperateness, NewYrs, Now -long***TrigSH, posted by annierose on January 11, 2007, at 17:40:47
>>>>>>He is not a therapist, as long as you know that. You are not doing therapy together.
I know he's not a therapist to me anymore. And he kinda knows that to. But he thinks he is *more* than a therapist now, not less than -- and that it's good. I'm pretty sure I know that we're not doing therapy anymore. It's just confusing cause he says that what he does and suggests IS best for me, or will be in the long run. Being in the hospital so much (especially while trying to defend your opinions and perspectives while having AN) you learn that everything malicious you think of doctors, pdoc and T's is only a symptom of your sickness. I can't even get the dentist to take my word as fact (and I pay him thousands of dollars a year!). Plus, I did trust T for well over a year, when he was still normal and silent. It's hard.
>>>>Right now, he is playing with your mind.
I appreciate your anger - I do - I know it comes from a good place. But I fear that I see a side of him no one else can. That if you could hear his voice, and see his eyes when he speaks...if you saw him tear up, you may too doubt whether he's so predatorial. Sometimes I do question his motives (when he suggests bad things, or makes me upset when I won't let him know everything about me) but then he does a 180. And amidst all his bad behaviour, he also seems to genuinely care -- which sounds impossible, but that's what it's like.
Thanks for caring. I always think I make you all hate me -- when I can't do what you all say. That that weakness in me repels you guys. It's good to hear from you. I hope I can give you all a positive update one day.
blove, EL
Posted by ElaineM on January 11, 2007, at 23:09:17
In reply to Re: Jealousy, Seperateness, NewYrs, Now -long***TrigSH » ElaineM, posted by Scentedgarden on January 11, 2007, at 19:18:56
>>>>> I would think of it nicely. I don't deserve anyone. It would be luck - not a bad thing. It's fine.
>>PLease dont think like this about yourself , as it's just not true..it would not be fine!!!I have a hard time caring about myself. I hate myself. And I care even less about my body than any other aspect of me. I always figure I've abused it myself (with the AN) worse than anyone else before or now. The Before's never left lasting damage. Plus my body is so useless and broken down and painful. I hate it. I'm sorry my T sounds like an ex boyfriend of yours. That must've been a confusing relationship to say the least. The thing with me is that my T is very different from any other man who's been in my life. No man has ever been so weak around me. I almost feel stronger than him -- and that's an unsettling feeling for me. It makes me really nervous. I'm used to something quite different, and I think that's why I'm so confused and reluctant to leave. He's never ever loud, never violent. I don't want to be the person who's the one who hurts the other.
>>>>>This is awful stuff from this guy....his intellectual masturbation...! the man is a screw ball
I still kinda don't know what that meant. But I wonder if that's a way that would be normal for him to speak with a male buddy. I sometimes feel that he see's me in multiple ways: both a peer, a mother substitute, a daughter, and the other thing. That's what causes the craziest reactions in my head. I can't stand when I can feel him putting me in more than one of those roles in a meeting. He should know, instinctly, how f*cked up that is. It makes me question everything from the past few months (since summer). Maybe I misunderstood when he's said "romantic" stuff before. And then wanting to be like a parent to me would be alright. But he's started saying all the same "love you" stuff again, and it makes me feel gross.
>>>>>>This man is seriously f*cked up and neds to be shut down from practise immediateltLY
See, that's something else that's very difficult for me. I'm positive that I'm the only client he's so strange with. I know alot of other people depend on him. I've seen some of his clients when I stay even longer than I'm supposed to. [I hate it, but he likes when we go extra long sometimes, cause it means we were being "close".] I know all about his family, his children. I couldn't ruin his life, and all those who's intertwine with his. Even if I liked myself, and loved life, I am not worth inflicting that much upset on others.
>>>> do not go to that place with that man..if you did it would probably destroy you in the end...so plz dont give in...
Usually it's only a fleeting thought. Once I really thought I was gonna do something, the first time he started crying about his stuff infront of me. But it was more of a panic reaction. I wouldn't do anything. He'd have to, and he's so shy and sad that I can't imagine him being forceful. So I'm sure it will never happen.
>>>>>IM SO GLAD YOU MET A LADY T....Cn you start to see her more...and this nutcse of a man less?
why do you have to wait till feb to see her again..?
She's my old T from a few years ago. I have to wait cause I can't see her too much in a year, or too close together, cause that's all her organization will allow without considering what we're doing "therapy". It's only supposed to be an "update", to provide continuity, not help work on things. Also, she doesn't charge for these rare meetings (not just for me, but her other prior patients too).
>>>>i hope youre not upset with what ive asked you to think about, or what ive said about this weed from hell..if ive upset you i apologise a million gizzillion times...
No, not upset. I just question myself when I read strong emotions -- I wonder if I've mislead you somehow. I guess it just comes back down to me not being able to see T the exact same way as everyone else. It sounds like you know what hurt is, and that's why you care so much.
I'm glad you have a T who respects your right to boundaries. Thanks for writing me. The voices of you guys here is really all I have other than his voice (which is saying the oppostie). You take care too.
blove, EL
Posted by ElaineM on January 11, 2007, at 23:13:31
In reply to Re: Jealousy, Seperateness, NewYrs, Now -long***Tr » Scentedgarden, posted by ElaineM on January 11, 2007, at 23:09:17
bil, muff, dinah: I'm falling asleep typing now and can't reply to you all adequately. So I'll save my responses for after my session tomorrow.
thank you all. You make me feel less alone.
blove EL
Posted by Karolina on January 11, 2007, at 23:14:53
In reply to Jealousy, Seperateness, NewYrs, Now -long***TrigSH, posted by ElaineM on January 11, 2007, at 15:59:49
hey Elaine,
I'm going to warn you ahead of time, this will probably come across as blunt, and I know I usually am not that way, but I just feel really worried about you. None of us like seeing you feeling this bad. Life is too short you know??
But we were glad to hear from you. But please know this - you are NOT disgusting, you are NOT a whore, pathetic, weak, or anything else like that. I know that I will probably sound hypocritical a little bit (since I struggle with my own T and how to take his comments/actions and how to handle my attraction to him) -- BUT...my situation is maybe PG-13 and your's is like NC-17. I don't mean for that to sound b*tchy, but it's just so clear that your T has broken boundaries of normal ethical therapy (asking you to hang out outside of the office, taking up YOUR time by talking about HIS problems, expressing his feelings about you -- i think I remember you saying one time he told you he loved you, he gets jealous of you getting attention from other guys, etc)
In a way it almost sounds like the dynamics of your past troubling relationships are being reinacted - with your T. Like he's learned how to manipulate you into feeling guilty or bad about really stupid stuff, like how long your emails should be to him...This relationship is unhealthy, not just because he is behaving as an unethical T, but even if it was a real relationship with some guy you met somewhere else, it wouldn't be healthy.
If your T was a good guy, you wouldn't be feeling so bad right now. HE is the one with issues, not you E. I'm glad you have had contact with your ladyT, have you told her any about what's been going on with him??
Like muffled said, I really don't know what you're truly feeling and I might be wrong in getting this feeling from what I read, but it almost sounds like you wish you could get away from him, but just dont know how to cut it off. because you're worried about 'hurting' him and he's made you feel so responsible for everything.
I know you feel you can't just 'walk away' but -- you CAN. You are strong E and you can stand up for yourself. You don't have to put up with this crap anymore. He needs serious help and what's sad is he has probably tried to start something like this with other women in his life, probably even other patients.
It would maybe be different if you felt like you loved him and were attracted to him. But from what I can tell, you feel grossed out by the suggestive things he says to you.
And it probably feels more like a burden having to listen to his emotional chaos, emails, letters/print-outs he brings to sessions, and feeling like you are the one who is supposed to help him tame it all.
Even though he thinks of you guys now as more friends instead of doctor and patient, it would still be aggravating/overwhelming to constantly feel like you needed to help him fix everything. He definitely needs to keep seeing his own therapist.
...I know the things I say are probably coming out harsh, and you might even feel pretty mad at me for saying all this.
But please don't be defensive of the situation, be honest about the situation instead.
That it's messed up and making YOU feel messed up, and there should be no reason for that. Because you dont deserve all this!
I'm sorry for saying all this but I care about you - everyone here cares about you. I think like muffled said, it would be a great idea to write out how you're feeling about everything on here. Because I feel bad if all of my assumptions are totally wrong about how you feel. But anyway like I said, I just care....
-Karolina-
Posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on January 12, 2007, at 12:35:17
In reply to To ALL-just a thot, how best, posted by muffled on January 11, 2007, at 22:14:29
Hey Muffled,
I share your concern about how to help Elaine in the short run and the long run.I have also been in touch with her since she first joined us here. I am grateful that she posts about things that are really difficult, really raw. I'm impressed that she trusts us folks with her story. Often I feel that the more I reveal of myself personally, the more vulnerable I am. Many times Elaine has been incredibly brave- to show psycho-babble, and crisis counselor, and other helpful folks her psychological weaknesses and vulnerabilities.
Elaine, you may not realize it, but since you've been posting here, you have not been a burden. You have not made us hate you. If anything I feel more warm thoughts about you the more I know. I know that it's hard to appreciate compliments when you are feeling really down on yourself, but you have a lot of strength (both in terms of your willpower, your heart, and your body). You have been through a LOT, and you don't give yourself enough credit for stuff. I mean, you live on your own, despite a lot of physical and psychological hardship. You have allowed your body to be nourished and you are trying to take the best care of yourself that you know how.
So, I'm not sure that bashing your T is what you need to hear right now. Some weeks ago you sounded like you had more strength, like you felt more independent and sure of yourself. Maybe I'm just putting my own gloss on things, but I feel that during periods when you are not so much in contact with him you actually do better. You seem more reasonable about what kind of person you are, and about what kind of care you need to learn how to build the skills to make a long-term relationship with a man work out.
If one of your goals for yourself is to be in a relationship where you are loved for who you are, then you will need to move on to a new T. You know this already, though. So, I don't want to beat a dead horse.
The day to day goal of having something to get you out of your home and a reason to interact with another human being is very natural and very human. Is this one of the reasons why you are still going to see your "t"? And why you will continue to read e-mails and other things? You often sound very isolated and I'm sorry that this hurts so badly. I wish you could get out and be merry. I find it aggravating that your "t" does not seem to understand that people who are alone all day often feel depressed, and feel like bad people.
I do not think you are a bad person for putting this immediate goal (of planned social interaction with "t") ahead of your long-term goals. I cannot judge you for making the choices that you have made. You are the only one who knows what the best decision is for you. You are very intelligent, so I know it's not because you haven't considered this stuff before. You are very kind and seem to have a lot of love to give. As other posters have said, you seem to be pretty thoughtful and reasonable "sane", in terms of what is happening.
I hope that by writing out these updates (which I very much appreciate, btw) you get a sense of what parts of you are contradicting other parts of you. Which parts of you are essentially healthy and well, and which weeds can you pull from your garden.
Does it help you when we point out some of the contradictory things you write about? Or does it just make you feel bad?
Well, no matter what, sometimes the most important support is knowing that you have witnesses. When you start to question your own sense of reality, your own memory of things-- you have an archive in your witnesses who can gently lead you back on course. If you've got the stomach to read your old posts (I can't read mine. too icky.) then you may even be able to see some patterns there too.
Sorry so long. I hope you don't mind. I hope I didn't say the wrong things to you Elaine.
Thanks muffled, for being you. And for caring :)
b-love to both of you
-Ll
Posted by Scentedgarden on January 12, 2007, at 19:37:05
In reply to Re: Jealousy, Seperateness, NewYrs, Now -long***Tr » annierose, posted by ElaineM on January 11, 2007, at 22:33:19
> >>>>>>He is not a therapist, as long as you know that. You are not doing therapy together.
>
> I know he's not a therapist to me anymore. And he kinda knows that to. But he thinks he is *more* than a therapist now, not less than -- and that it's good.**i THINK I CAN SEE WHAT YOU SEE... HE SEES
> >>>>Right now, he is playing with your mind.
>
> I appreciate your anger - I do - I know it comes from a good place. But I fear that I see a side of him no one else can.**HIS REMINDS ME OF MAN I LET ABUSE ME I WAS THE ONLY PERSON IN THE WHOLE WORLD WHO SAW THE GOOD IN HIM..
That if you could hear his voice, and see his eyes when he speaks...
** MY BOYFREINDS..THE LOVE OF MY LIFE AT THAT TIME..HAD DAZZLING EYES TO ME...
DO YOU KNOW THAT THE NDEVIL ALWAYS COMES AS A MASQUERADING ANGEL OF LIGHT..?
if you saw him tear up, you may too doubt whether he's so predatorial.
*** MY BF DID ALL THAT TOO ME, EVEN DOWN ON HIS KNEES BEGGING ME..CRYING...BUT ALL THE WHILE SCREWING OTHERS AND ABUSING ME SO MUCH EMOTIONALLY NA D MENTALLY..AND BOY COULD HE LIE!!!
Sometimes I do question his motives (when he suggests bad things, or makes me upset when I won't let him know everything about me) but then he does a 180.
THIS IS A NORMAL BEHAVIOUR FOR VERY NARSICCISTIC PERSONALITY TYPES... And amidst all his bad behaviour, he also seems to genuinely care -- which sounds impossible, but that's what it's like.
ELAINE..I KNOW I REALLY DO KNOW..I AM UNDERSTANDING YOU NOW...I CAN SEE SO MUCH OF THE STRUGGLR YOU ARE HAVING ...I HAVE BEEN IN A SIMIALAR POSITION...WITH A MAN..
I WAS 18 YRS OLD ..AND HE WAS 43 WHEN WE MET...AND WE WERE TOGETHER FOR A LONG TIME...HE IS IN HIS EARLY 60'S NOW...!
I LEFT HIM ONE DAY AND WAVED GOODBYE TO HIM UP AT HIS WINDOW...AND I'VE NEVER SEEN HIM AGAIN..!
IT WAS THE HARDEST THING I EVER HAD TO DO...I WENT HOME AND I WAS CRAWLING ON THE FLOOR IN MY ROOM..JUST GRIPPING ONTO THE CARPET..AS EVERYHTING INME WANTED TO GO BACK TO HIM...
I PRAYED AND PRAYED AND I MANAGED TO NOT SEE HIM..THEN I MOVED 400 MILES AWAY...WE SPOKE BY FONE..AND NOW NO CONTACT FOR A FEW YEARS...!!
IT WAS NOT EASY ELAINE ....AND I HONESTLY BELIEVE YOU WHEN YOU SAY HE SEEMS TO CARE...HIS EYES ARE LIKE SHINING...ETC ...
EVERYTHING WILL BE OKAY ELAINE...
I FEEL THAT YOU ARE GOING TO COME THROUGHT THIS...
PLEASE STAY IN TOUCH WITH BABBLE FOLKS..AS WE REALLY CARE ABOUT YOU...!!!
THATS THE TRUTH...
BLOVESG
P.S. SORRY I HAVENT ANSWRED YOUR OTHER POST TO ME...BUT I WILL HOPE TO SOON...AS I HAVE MAYBE SOMETHING TO SAY THERE TOO..BUT THE POINT IS I WANTED YOU TO KNOW ..I THINK I UNDERSTAND HOW YOU FEEL..!!!WHAT YOU ARE GOING THROUGH AND WHY ITS SO HARD FOR ONLY YOU TO SEE THAT BAD IN THIS GUY..
EVERYONE AROUND ME TOLD ME MY BF WAS BAD FOR ME...EVERYONE!!! EVEN MY FAMILY COULDNT STAND HIM..HE WAS SO OBVIOUSLY BAD FOR ME IN THEIR EYES....MY FREINDS ETC...ALSO JUST COULDNT UNDERSTAND WHAT I SAW IN HIM...
BUT I THOUGHT I HAD TO KEEP LOVING HIM..AS I WAS SORT OF HIS SVIOUR IN A WAY BECAUSE ONLY I COULD SEE THE VERY GGOOD MAN INSIDE OF HIM...
THE LITTLE BOY WHO WAS LOST AND ALONE AND VULNERABLE...AND WHO TRUSTED ME ENOUGH TO SHOW ME ALL HIS REAL FEELINGS...
SO PLEASE IF IT'S ANY COMFORT...I AM ABLE TO SAY...YES ELAINE , I KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO CARE FOR A MAN LIKE YOUR THERAPIST...
PLEASE TRY TO RELAX
EVERYTHING IS GOING TO BE ALLRIGHT WITH YOU..
IT TAKES TIME..
AND THERE IS AN APPOINTED TIME FOR EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN...
IM SO GLAD YOU HAVE POSTED ALL THIS....THANK YOU!MUCH BLOVE
SCENTEDGARDEN..xx
>
> Thanks for caring. I always think I make you all hate me -- when I can't do what you all say. That that weakness in me repels you guys. It's good to hear from you.*** I CAN SEE WHY YOU THINK YOU MAKE US ALL HATE YOU..I UNDERSTAND YOUR THINKING THAT WAY ...REALLY I DO...BUT WE COULDNT HATE YOU ELAINE..NO WAY!!!
YOUR WEAKNESS ??? YOU'RE NOT WEAK ELAINE!!!!!!
ON THE CONTRARY...YOU ARE VERY VERY STRONG...!!
I BET THAT SURPRISED YOU ME SAYING THAT...LOLbut it's the truth you're not weak...your strong as an ox...and i know you're going to be allright...
> blove, ELbig PEACE...PEACE ..PEACE
p.p.s. plz feel freee to ask me anything you want to know and i agree i will answer as honestly and helpfully as i possibly can..ok..?!
SG
xp.p.p.s. I hope I can give you all a positive update one day.
****dont you be worrying about that...this is not the time to be thinking what you can do for us Elaine...but its very nice of you thinking like that...and just goes to show again how wonderful and kind and intelligent you are...please chill..! bye bye and GOD BLESS YOU !!!!!!! xx
Posted by ElaineM on January 12, 2007, at 21:56:46
In reply to Re: Jealousy, Seperateness, NewYrs, Now -long***TrigSH » ElaineM, posted by muffled on January 11, 2007, at 18:49:36
>>>>>Does it help at all to be able to write it out to cyberspace?
It helps a little - I don't really talk to anyone else in real life. But I think it's beyond that now. I need a different kind of "not alone".
>>>>I just wonder if you had any sense of why you continue? Whats the real reason you just can't walk away?
Cause I always destroy people. I did it with my first T - made her hate me. My parents. Scott (old boyf). And I warned T now that I suck the life (or at least the Happy) out of people. Now it seems like it's being proven true. Even if I never officially complained about him, leaving would crush him. And I know that sounds so conceited or something, but for some crazy, sick reason I mean something to him, and he gets so visably upset when I seem to distance myself from him. If I actually left he'd be really broken. He's also said before that if we weren't getting together in the professional setting that he'd still want to hang out with me -- that he'd want to date me if I wasn't his patient. I'd never say no - I know it. I couldn't. But I also know I'd probably not be able to tolerate myself then. I never could say no to my parents either. I feel kinder and safer continuing to see him in his office as a "patient".
Plus, the other thing is that I'm just plain old afraid to be alone. Anything is better than alone. I don't have the strength to put up with the other stuff in my life (my health in particular) without someone sharing it with me [even if it's in a twisted, unethical way].
>>>>>>Is there any way to find out if he is going. Could you make a contract and put the pressure on your T that you absolutely WILL NOT come if he is not seeing a T?
I did ask and he said he's still going for now. I've told him that he can't expect me to come, if he thinks going to his own ("when there's nothing to say") is pointless. I don't know how I'd be able to tell though if he was lying. I guess his recaps of his sessions would sound made up or something.
>>>>>**WOW! Thats great! And a long session. She must really actaully care?! And then she e-mailed you too????!!! And you go again in Feb???!!! Thats good.
Are you able to really tell her whats going on?
And did the session go well?She knows EVERYTHING that's been going on with me. The only thing she doesn't know is that "the T" I have the questionable relationship with is the same T that she sent me to. I made up a story about switching (which I had intended to do about a year ago cause I wasn't comfortable or connecting with a male T. So my story seems legit to her). She kept telling me to tell "T now" - that I could trust him - that he's "where the money's at". She was very concerned about stuff in my life. She said I need more support than I have now. She's helping me deal with something going on with me too -- mostly just listening. But when I was leaving she said that if I ever chose to, she'd help me report "this guy". It was hard cause (unknowingly) she was condeming and promoting the same man. I just couldn't tell her - cause once I say his name she's legally obligated to start the reporting process even without my consent.
Muff, I appreciate you so much. You're so genuine and caring, and I can feel it through your posts. I wish I could leave him so I could tell you all. I've been taking care of myself better since Dec. I've been getting some scary tests done, waiting for them by myself, going by myself to strange people. I'm trying, but I don't think I have it in me right now to leave him. I'm sorry that makes you all worry. I worry for myself too. But I'm more worried about what I'd be like all alone.
Thanks for all your long replies. I'm glad you talk to me.blove EL
Posted by ElaineM on January 12, 2007, at 22:16:09
In reply to Re: Jealousy, Seperateness, NewYrs, Now -long***Tr, posted by bil on January 11, 2007, at 20:31:00
>>>>>He sounds like he is being very manipulative and controlling- and very scary... he is playing on how low you feel about yourself to give himself power.
He really does seem to "feel low" about himself though. Like, really low. Even today, I'd given him a book cause I've started to put together more of his childhood/teens and realized he was an ACOA. So I gave him one of my books and we had such a good session today. He read out parts that really touched him, and talked more about specific examples from his family. He'd never connected alot of the stuff. ANd at the end he said he was realy considering looking for a group to go to. I was so proud of him. A bit bothered cause he only asked me after an hour and forty minutes, "Oh, did you have anything you wanted to talk about today?" I didn't, so it's not like it was a big deal. Plus he did do some meaningful work today. I felt better about today than any of my meetings for maybe the last two months. But it just leads me to believe that he really is more fragile than I am. I mean, I hate having to speak so much, I hate having to be the strong one, and I hate having someone depend on me to "look after" them -- but I'm the one, out of the two of us, that he's put in that role, so he must feel very sensitive. And I've never seen a man cry before (except at a deathbed once, and at funerals). I've seen him do it at least three times now. I don't want to hurt him.
>>>>>this man has broken every ethical rule in the book.
I do know this. But it's hard cause I know that he doesn't *realize* he's doing it. I wish he'd had a therapist much earlier in his life, or even that he'd stayed with the ones he had to work with when he was younger and beginning.
If I knew that he was being 100% deceitful, and evil and manipulative, it'd be easier to have angry feelings towards him -- it'd be easier to leave. But he seems to be making all these mistakes out of some misplaced love, and desire to be loved. I wish I wasn't the one he was confronting all this with, but that's how it's turned out. THe fact that I'm so "similar" to him, and our family histories are somewhat similar, and I have quite a few parallels to his last EX ... it seems inevitable that it would've happened this way. I feel like sh*t even considering abandoning him.
Bil, thanks for your support. THere are days where I do feel the resentment and distaste that you have, but they are mixed in with alot of other emotions. I wish I was with LadyT. I'm glad she's alright still having contact with me, and that she's as available as she can be, right now.
blove EL
Posted by philyra on January 13, 2007, at 8:26:10
In reply to Re: Jealousy, Seperateness, NewYrs, Now -long***Tr » annierose, posted by ElaineM on January 11, 2007, at 22:33:19
> I appreciate your anger - I do - I know it comes from a good place. But I fear that I see a side of him no one else can. That if you could hear his voice, and see his eyes when he speaks...
Hi Elaine,
I don't think we've ever posted to each other before, but I felt moved to respond to your thread. I just wanted to say that I believe that you see a side of your T we don't see. You two have become very close and I get that the feelings are very deep there.
I wanted to say also that I think leaving him would be the best thing for both of you. Not just for you. It sounds like it will be very painful, but it will be healthy for him as well as for you. I really believe that bringing this relationship to your other T's attention and making it possible for him to be reported, and/or your terminating, would help him get the help he needs.
Maybe that will help to think about.
take care,
philyra
Posted by ElaineM on January 13, 2007, at 11:59:41
In reply to Re: Jealousy, Seperateness, NewYrs, Now -long***Tr » ElaineM, posted by Dinah on January 11, 2007, at 20:41:25
>>>>>Is this what you want in a suitor? People are at their best when they're wooing, and this doesn't sound all that best.
I guess not. I've never really had a "suitor" though. I don't think I've ever had anyone be their "best" with me. It's okay, cause I've never expected it. I don't know why but I've always been more comfortable with strong, domineering, almost cruel (which sounds really sick) males. It sounds dumb but it actually scares me (or something) when I see men be weak - maybe it's just me being afraid of having to be "strong" myself.
I wouldn't want to date him. But it's also hard for me not to rationalize that at least his "not best" is not his worst. Or more so, that his "not best" isn't as bad as other's "not best". He hasn't forced anything yet. He never yells, or swears. He never tells me how ugly or stupid or sh*tty I am. He doesn't tell me what to wear, or what to eat. (THe only thing he's said is I could maybe try and lose some weight cause it might help with my physical problems, and would probably make me feel better emotionally. That was hard at first cause it's been years since someone approached dieting from that side with me, and cause my old Boyf before AN used to tell me what I shouldn't eat and how much I should work out. But I'm more alright with T's weightloss comments now). He doesn't care how I wear my hair, or what color it is. All he is is perhaps too caring and too emotional. It's so damn hard to see him as bad then -- even though I know that what he's doing is technically wrong.
>>>>>>I know you've been having trouble finding someone to be your therapist, but don't give up.
I'm kinda tired of telling people. I've told psych center pdoc, ladyDoc, LadyT, crisis counsellor, and a help organization worker (in person). And nothing came of it. If anything (except for LadyT) telling all those others made it worse because the hour or so of feeling helped (as I was talking to them) disappeared once they told me that they couldn't see me themselves and to keep looking elsewhere. To feel something "good" only to lose it makes the hurt even worse -- even though it was the exact same place I was in *before* I told. It's too much disappointment. ANd to go back to being alone with it all afterwards makes my feelings of guilt for betraying Him so much worse.
I'm not giving up altogether, but I'm focusing more on increasing what I can endure. I'm proving to myself that I'm stronger than I know. T always says that I'm good at doing what I need to to get by. I want to learn to be even stronger and untouchable.
thanks (((dinah)))
blove, El
Posted by ElaineM on January 13, 2007, at 12:12:39
In reply to To ALL-just a thot, how best, posted by muffled on January 11, 2007, at 22:14:29
((((((((((((Muffly)))))))))))))
You have such a strong instinct to take care of others. It's so touching. I don't understand why something would be like that towards me, but I appreciate it so much.When it comes to people bashing my T, I'm kinda used to it, in a way. I can't really expect less of others, when now, even *I* can admit that he's rather unethical. But it does create this powerful urge within me to defend him. The only thing is that it also makes me feel sad cause I know that I can't leave him - can't do what everyone is saying (and have been saying for many months). It's tough though cause I feel bad that I can't leave, and think I'd feel bad (probably even worse) if I did. I've set myself up not to win either way. And when I hate myself even more, I start to think that you all feel the same way.
Mostly I'm just scared of everyone, all the time, everywhere. I do know that people mean well here. It would be upsetting if people *didn't* respond at all. I can understand where all the comments come from - that they're motivated from concern.
Even though it's taken me awhile to respond, I read this when you first posted it and it means alot that you want me to feel safe here.
thanks again ((((muff)))
blove, EL
Posted by ElaineM on January 13, 2007, at 14:23:45
In reply to sorry this is long..., posted by Karolina on January 11, 2007, at 23:14:53
>>>>>>I know that I will probably sound hypocritical a little bit (since I struggle with my own T and how to take his comments/actions and how to handle my attraction to him) -- BUT...my situation is maybe PG-13 and your's is like NC-17.
I don't think it's hypocritical -- I try not to compare situations too much cause each context is always different. I guess I can see how you differentiate our T's, though I hope that wouldn't make you discount the inappropriateness of some of the things you've said your T does. He has said that he loves me a handful of times. ANd while he has said "make love" or "be the man in your life in every way" he never does or say overtly sexual things. He does get jealous, but I can't tell when it's an emotional or a physical jealousy, or both.
>>>>>>>If your T was a good guy, you wouldn't be feeling so bad right now. HE is the one with issues, not you E. I'm glad you have had contact with your ladyT, have you told her any about what's been going on with him??
I don't know about his "goodness" but I do think he's got some psychological problems. I have many of my own issues (I'm not healthy by any means either) and he has his. LadyT knows everything, (including his profession) except his real identity.
>>>>>but it almost sounds like you wish you could get away from him, but just dont know how to cut it off. because you're worried about 'hurting' him and he's made you feel so responsible for everything.
I wish leaving him wouldn't hurt both of us. I wish me staying didn't mean so much to him. But then again, maybe I do. It's pathetic but he's really the only one who's close to me on a somewhat personal level. He's the only one who'd notice if I wasn't there. It's hard to give that up. Someone caring too much is easier to take than no one caring (IRL) at all, or too little. LadyT helps but I'm a patient to her, not a regular person. If I was without him, no one would have "real" feelings for me. I know that accepting the difficult and the bad is hard, and it hurts at the time - but then knowing that I exist on an emotional level to him is a powerful consolation. LadyT doesn't think about me when I'm not associated with some professional thinking, or when I'm not associated with my diagnosis. T's can think about you on their own, but it's because they don't want your "illness" to be harming you at the time, they don't want to perpetuate your "illness", they're wondering if they made the right decisions (in terms of your "illness") when they last spoke to you, they think of you as an extension of their job. Sure, she can like parts of me personally, but she'd never associate with me socially (or maternally) before I was her patient, and wouldn't now that I'm not her patient. T is different that way. I know it's bad psychologically, but professional/social/... have been combined, making each facet harder to give up.
>>>>>>He needs serious help and what's sad is he has probably tried to start something like this with other women in his life, probably even other patients.
I think he does need help. But I don't think that he does this with other patients. Not cause I'm good at converation, or have a good personality, or look good -- I'm too quiet, ugly, monotone. I know that his "choosing" me doesn't mean I'm special (and it doesn't make me feel that way). But I just really feel deep down that this isn't something he's done before, or is doing now with anyone else.
>>>>>It would maybe be different if you felt like you loved him and were attracted to him. But from what I can tell, you feel grossed out by the suggestive things he says to you.
That's true. I do feel grossed out. The age gap is huge. But I'm scared and grossed out by almost all men now. I have been having an extra hard time with "older" men for the past few months though. I get the urge to start screaming when I'm too near one. But now I'm the same way with younger men too. I can't imagine him touching me beyond how/when he does now. It really makes me sick to my stomach.
>>>>>He definitely needs to keep seeing his own therapist.
I think so too. I also think that he needs to start talking about the right things too. He gives me recaps of all his sessions the next day, and I ask him questions about them. I think it's great that he's talking about stuff to do with his Ex -- I think her role is important in the dynamics he and I have. But I've been begging him to mention *our* relationship, and how it effects him. I want him to have another professional male's (who's his age) opinion -- and maybe that would tone him down, or wake him up. He won't though. I mention it and he blows it off right away saying he doesn't want to be lectured to about how wrong it would be. He says that his T wouldn't understand how different I am. It's really frustrating. But he will not do it. I even mentioned it again this past Wed. I wrote about it again in an e-reply I just sent off to him -- I'll see what he says.
K, I don't think you're too harsh. I'll try and write updates more often when something new happens. I'm going through alot of terrible stuff lately. I think it makes me think that T isn't SO bad even more than usual. THe only thing I worry is that when I'm writing out here, I feel calmer and start to downplay, re-write, and forget everything that happens with T and I. And I also forget how upset I was when he's done or said certain things, when I have a different, non-related issue in my life pull focus. Thanks for staying in touch. You keep writing about your stuff, cause I sometimes worry about you too.
blove EL
Posted by MidnightBlue on January 13, 2007, at 15:53:03
In reply to Re: sorry this is long... » Karolina, posted by ElaineM on January 13, 2007, at 14:23:45
Elaine,
You wrote:
That's true. I do feel grossed out. The age gap is huge. But I'm scared and grossed out by almost all men now. I have been having an extra hard time with "older" men for the past few months though. I get the urge to start screaming when I'm too near one. But now I'm the same way with younger men too. I can't imagine him touching me beyond how/when he does now. It really makes me sick to my stomach.
This is the first time I've noticed you commenting on there being a huge age gap between you and your T. You are mid 20s right? So he is what 50? 60? more? Am I reading this right?
If so this puts things in a whole different light.
MidnightBlue (who is still reading and trying hard to figure out what to say)
Posted by ElaineM on January 13, 2007, at 16:15:02
In reply to Re: To ALL-just a thot, how best » muffled, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on January 12, 2007, at 12:35:17
>>>>>>>Some weeks ago you sounded like you had more strength, like you felt more independent and sure of yourself.
A few months ago I think I did. I don't think it's just your "gloss" :-) But I can't remember why I felt that way, I can't really remember what it felt like -- only that I'm pretty sure that your remark was true. I'm confused, cause end of Nov was when I was still during a really bad physical phase. I can't remember that far back. I tend to forget things as soon as they happen though - kinda like my life behind me is blank. I guess I learned that there's a bit less to worry about, and be upset over that way.
>>>>>>The day to day goal of having something to get you out of your home and a reason to interact with another human being is very natural and very human. Is this one of the reasons why you are still going to see your "t"?
Ya, I think I mentioned some of that in the reply to Karolina. I think someone only counts as being alive if someone would miss them when they are gone. He's the only one in my real life who I think would (or at least first. My sister would notice at some point, though I think T would be most effected emotionally). I really think every T will seem uncaring now -- when they are only acting normal for them. It took a long time for me to be able to even look LadyT in the eyes when we had our meeting before Christmas. And I still questioned trusting her during, and worried about it after. Part was the subject matter, part my emotional state, but part was also that she sounded so different from T now - even minus his excessive self-disclosure.
>>>>>>>And why you will continue to read e-mails and other things?
I do that part cause he says it makes him sad when I don't, that he looks forward to when I respond to his messages. He says it means alot to him, and it makes him feel very far away from me when I have days when I don't. I've been terrible with it lately - just can't bring myself to do it. I sent one today after five days! That's the longest I've ever gone without answering. I felt so bad so I sent one out this morning.
>>>>>>Does it help you when we point out some of the contradictory things you write about? Or does it just make you feel bad?
No it doesn't make me feel bad. I'm aware that in terms of T there's two sides of me -- the part who's quiet and facilliating and supportive during sessions, and the part that breaks down later here and rips him apart. *sigh* But as far as believing in the "good" parts of me -- the only thing I ever believe is that I try to be good and kind, and don't like others hurting. Other than that, it's kinda impossible for me to think I'm anything but the cr@p I think I see and am. (I know that's stubborn, I'm sorry. Self-image and appearance were things i was supposed to be working on with LadyT.)
>>>>>>Well, no matter what, sometimes the most important support is knowing that you have witnesses. When you start to question your own sense of reality, your own memory of things-- you have an archive in your witnesses who can gently lead you back on course. If you've got the stomach to read your old posts (I can't read mine. too icky.) then you may even be able to see some patterns there too.
I am glad that I'm not so completely alone - that you guys know and listen and ask. I question my reality and memory all the time. You didn't say anything wrong, so don't worry. It's nice to read stuff from you. Though I'm not sure I could go back and read my old threads without being humiliated and regretful. THanks for helping.
blove El
Posted by ElaineM on January 13, 2007, at 16:37:39
In reply to Re: Jealousy, Seperateness, NewYrs, Now -long***Tr » ElaineM, posted by philyra on January 13, 2007, at 8:26:10
Hi philyra, No, I don't think we've spoken before. Nice to meet you.
>>>>>>I wanted to say also that I think leaving him would be the best thing for both of you. Not just for you.
Actually I never thought of it that way. If I knew 100% that leaving and hurting him that way would push him farther into the arms of a capable T then I may try to do it. I worry that the only reason he's seeing one now is cause I really push for it, and he thinks it's important to me. I've had to talk him out of quitting before, and now he's talking about it again. I worry he'd just breakdown and isolate.
He's been talking to me recently about how he wants me to help him to be like me. He thinks it's a noble, strength-proving thing that I tolerate my disengagement from the world so well -- That I "accept" aloneness and loneliness, reject the idea of "hope" when it would only be a lying to oneself. He says I amaze him that way -- he think it shows wisdom. I told him that it's not a good thing for someone to give up on the world that way. That it's not admirable that I've removed myself from life, or that I've been so damaged that I don't feel properly, or have any normal attachments or likes. I said it's more defeatism than anything and that I wouldn't wish that on anyone, let alone help him to be like me. It's offensive to me -- my life is terrible and full of pain, not some exercise in zen, or something.
I worry that he wants to "copy" my mindset that way. Combined with how upset he'd be if I left him, I'm not sure he'd turn to someone else. He says that before me he has already turned away from people emotionally that way, in regards to his own stuff.
I'd never report him though. Ever. I'd never destroy his life, his family's life that way. Never. It'd be more likely for me to just stop seeing him.
Thanks for the reply. I wish there was away that I could not hurt either of us.
blove El
Posted by ElaineM on January 13, 2007, at 16:42:04
In reply to Re: sorry this is long... » ElaineM, posted by MidnightBlue on January 13, 2007, at 15:53:03
>>>>>This is the first time I've noticed you commenting on there being a huge age gap between you and your T. You are mid 20s right? So he is what 50? 60? more? Am I reading this right?
Yes. But I don't want to say his exact age. I'll say "more than 50". Sorry, maybe that's not a "huge" age gap -- I don't want to offend anyone. It's big to me though.
>>>>>>If so this puts things in a whole different light.
How? I don't understand, but I'm really curious how it could put it in a different light.
>>>>>>>(who is still reading and trying hard to figure out what to say)
Don't worry - I know :-)
blove EL
Posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on January 13, 2007, at 23:50:02
In reply to age » MidnightBlue, posted by ElaineM on January 13, 2007, at 16:42:04
Hi Elaine,
Just wondering how you're doing. You impress me- you really respond to everyone's posts so thoughtfully.Anyways, just wanted to let you know I was thinking of you.
Hugs,
-Ll
Posted by Frida on January 14, 2007, at 0:11:32
In reply to Hey » ElaineM, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on January 13, 2007, at 23:50:02
Dear Elaine,
I've been reading your posts and I so feel for you. How I wish I could "send" you loving people you could really trust...someone to guide you through this, and make you feel that there is some hope..and that someone can care about you in a way that doesn't hurt you..
You are in such a painful, difficult situation... :-(
I know it's not the same, but it reminds me of the relationship I had with my father (he ended up abusing me for years). I know you don't see your T as abusive, but the feelings you are having, feeling trapped in a situation...the conflicting feelings, feeling like you would hurt him so much, etc...resonate with me.
You are too young...I am so sorry that the times you reached out to other people they didn't come through for you. I so wish you could find someone who could truly guide you through this..and give you the support and care you need.
I feel for you and how alone you are.
I hear how tired you feel about all of this, how tired of fighting and dealing with this...I wish you could find help, someone safe to help you...What does the ladyT say about this situation? Isn't she concerned for your well-being?
I know you are tired and you've already tried..I don't know, I wish I could help..I wish I could help you myself, or help you find someone you could trust...(((((((((Elaine))))))))
Hugs to you
Don't forget..that you are valuable, and you deserve so much more.
Frida
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 14, 2007, at 0:55:07
In reply to Jealousy, Seperateness, NewYrs, Now -long***TrigSH, posted by ElaineM on January 11, 2007, at 15:59:49
I am wondering if he is HELPING YOU any? I also feel if you are seeing him only to be of help to him then maybe the fee can be waived? I do not feel you should have to pay to listen to his issues. I am not going to dis your T. I do not feel that would be productive. I am wishing you the best.
Posted by JeffSmith on January 14, 2007, at 9:49:24
In reply to Re: Jealousy, Seperateness, NewYrs, Now -long***Tr » ElaineM, posted by Scentedgarden on January 12, 2007, at 19:37:05
Elaine, Im new and have never read any of your posts (I dont think) but just read this thread and now have to reply... but everyone else has said things I already thought and has given you great feedback.
So, let me just say that youve gone from having your own issues/problems to deal with (which is why you went to therapy to begin with) to now having the additional weight of this new unhealthy relationship where it seems this man is much more concerned with fulfilling his own needs rather than helping you... and meanwhile it seems your initial issues are not being addressed properly or at all.
Im sorry youre now burdened with this relationship on top of everything else and I hope youre able to, in your own time, find a healthier therapist who will help you with you, instead helping you help him.
Good luck : )
Posted by philyra on January 14, 2007, at 11:57:35
In reply to Re: Jealousy, Seperateness, NewYrs, Now -long***Tr » philyra, posted by ElaineM on January 13, 2007, at 16:37:39
Hi Elaine,
Nice to meet you too. I've been thinking about your message and I guess what I want to say in reply is... I was holding your story in my mind and heart, and imagining you leaving this relationship, and the sense that i have is that it would be the best thing for your T for many different reasons. Not just the possibility that he would turn to someone else for support, as it seems you imagine (ideally another T), but for many other possibilities it would open up for his process. And my sense is too that whatever way it would push him in wouldn't necessarily be immediate. It might take him a long time to get the help he needs after his relationship with you was over.
I guess I want to just gently remind you (as I gently remind myself as often as I can) that you're not responsible for his process. But I also totally get how it doesn't feel that way. I get that the connection is deep there.
I'm not sure why your story resonates with me so much, maybe it's because it reminds me of relationships I've been in, both interpersonal and therapeutic. It's a hard, sad, beautiful, painful thing to have that kind of connection with another person. I'll keep you in my thoughts and I hope you continue to find some support here.
take care,
philyra
Posted by bil on January 14, 2007, at 15:08:41
In reply to Re: Jealousy, Seperateness, NewYrs, Now -long***Tr » bil, posted by ElaineM on January 12, 2007, at 22:16:09
"A bit bothered cause he only asked me after an hour and forty minutes, "Oh, did you have anything you wanted to talk about today?" I didn't, so it's not like it was a big deal. Plus he did do some meaningful work today. "
Lol!! Oh, Elaine- you are so good-hearted, really you are... I wish you could believe that!
ok, I won't have a go at your t anymore... this is something you are obviously struggling really hard with, and so it's not fair on me making things more difficult for you.
I WILL say, however (!!) that the NEXT time he talks for an HOUR AND FORTY MINUTES of YOUR session that you present him with an invoice, and tell him that you're splitting the cost of the session with him.
you are a lovely person.
bil
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