![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DAisym on August 20, 2007, at 21:58:08
Have I ever told you, "I hate therapy?" I do - a lot lately.
My therapist occasionally pushes me. Or challenges my thinking. Or encourages me sort of aggressively to stand up for myself. And it seems like every time he does this, I fall in this black hole. I get so upset. My thinking kind of goes like this: "OK - so you don't want to deal with the younger parts and the stories. You want me to use my adult self to comfort this scared part and not let her fear take over. That makes sense and is a good goal for therapy. Fine, I can do that. But it makes me sad and there is loss in this, though I can't name the loss."
I find myself mad/upset with him for wanting me to do something I feel I can't. And I'm upset because I agree with him that I should be moving towards this. But I feel so alone when he pushes like that.
Today I told him how upset I have been since last week. We did work really hard during Thursday's session but perhaps it was too hard. On the other hand, how am I ever going to get better and grow up and stop being controlled by old fears if I can't find my own power? He said finding my power doesn't mean giving up our connection. He wants me to use the connection to augment my power. I don't know how to do that. I hear, "I expect you to use good judgement and not be ruled by fear. Be strong - I know you are strong. I expect you to comfort yourself, not reach out to me." Blah. He didn't say that, but it is what I hear.
Today he also said that anytime he pushes on me, even a little, I fall apart. He wants to know what that is about. He asked me if it really is so devastating for him to nudge me. And he asked me to try and tell him that whatever he is doing isn't working right then and there. Then maybe I wouldn't get so upset because I wouldn't be sitting with it so long.
I have no answers for this. I think I want to act like a strong grown-up woman, but maybe I'm resisting for some secondary gain? I need thoughts on this. What do you do when your therapist pushes on you in the direction you know you need to go? Intellectually I know therapy isn't all warm sessions and shared tears. But it hurts so much -- but what is it that hurts? What is this huge loss I feel?
Posted by muffled on August 20, 2007, at 22:50:17
In reply to I'm a therapy weakling, posted by DAisym on August 20, 2007, at 21:58:08
The loss.
i have wondered that too.
Maybe its finally giving up the dream that one day someone will save you?
That you can't be 'saved', but that in fact, we have to take care of our own miserable selves.
Maybe its losing the child that makes me sad. We used to hate her, but have come to realize she got good points too.
And there's fear, fear of NOT being sick anymore, cuz its all we know....the fearful child has been so strong in our makeup...how to overcome that?
I dunno Daisy, these are things I say to myself.
My T used to push me just a bit, then I'd dissociate, and she'd back right off. I kinda wish she wouldn't have. Mebbe I'da found out something. Maybe not.
I dunno.
I just know that when I realized that it was up to me to comfort this child within me, well, for one I didn't want to, cuz I hated her, and for another, I was resentful to, and for another...I wanted t to do it, and for me to maybe feel the (caring?) thru the child, cuz I (for unknown reasons) am not allowed.
I want to feel the peace and safe feeling a child feels when it is young and safe and being held by a loving parent. If its *I* that must supply it to my child...well...its just not the same, cuz then *I* won't get a chance to feel it, cuz Iam giving it to the child, but not to myself. I want to GET 'it', not just give 'it'.
Sort of like that well of 'need'. I think it relates to that.
A T's job, is to work themself out of a job...mebbe in some way you feel rejected by him pushing you to heal?
Maybe your child feels rejected by him saying he can;t comfort her, but that adult daisy must do this...
Dunno if that makes sense.
Anyhow, when I read your post, i kinda understood, cuz I could feel it in my chest, and I don't usu feel that much, so I have wondered the same.
Interesting.
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by RealMe on August 21, 2007, at 0:09:45
In reply to I'm a therapy weakling, posted by DAisym on August 20, 2007, at 21:58:08
Clearly I don't know what is the huge loss you feel, but it seems to have to do with earlier years and perhaps experiences other than abuse. Was anyone there for you emotionally?? ever?? I certainly don't take your therapist comments the way you do. Should he nudge; yes; and it is important to start thinking about what that triggers in you within the session. Of course you can't do it over night or in a week or a month. That is the goal sort of, to notice in the session if you start to feel hurt, lonely, and any other feeling, and to talk about it. It is easy for that stuff to fester, and usually we are wrong about what was intended by the comment. I sure find that true with my therapist. And, though I don't say it immediately (sometime yes), I try to say something the next session, but I don't always succeed. The relationship with the therapist is part of the "cure." Remember that. You are in a sense reliving things with someone who is not going to hurt you and who can help you heal That is of course also scary because in the long run it means you won't need your therapist anymore. You are not at that point and probably not even close, and when it does happen, you will be ready. I know that to be true. Part of therapy is resisting. That is normal too.
YOu know from where I sit you are doing a fantastic job in therapy and working really hard; your therapist sees this, and if it is too much, he will understand that you need to back off for a time. You are definitely not a therapy weakling--quite the opposite.
RealMe (OzLand)
Posted by DAisym on August 21, 2007, at 1:15:13
In reply to Re: I'm a therapy weakling, posted by muffled on August 20, 2007, at 22:50:17
>>>>>The loss.
i have wondered that too.
Maybe its finally giving up the dream that one day someone will save you?
That you can't be 'saved', but that in fact, we have to take care of our own miserable selves.
Maybe its losing the child that makes me sad. We used to hate her, but have come to realize she got good points too.
<<<<I think this is true. I have come to realize that I do keep wishing to be saved. I've told a horrible story and then turned to my therapist and cried, "where were you? Why didn't you make him stop?" I'm not sure I know how to save myself, or worse, that i want to.>>>>>And there's fear, fear of NOT being sick anymore, cuz its all we know....the fearful child has been so strong in our makeup...how to overcome that?
I dunno Daisy, these are things I say to myself.
<<<<<<But I have never looked sick, or upset. I've kept the fearful child hidden and secret. I felt like I was doing the right thing by finding this part of me and letting her talk. Now it turns out I'm supposed to keep her quiet.>>>>My T used to push me just a bit, then I'd dissociate, and she'd back right off. I kinda wish she wouldn't have. Mebbe I'da found out something. Maybe not.
I dunno.
<<<<<Yeah, I was doing a lot of that this weekend and today. It feels kind of dizzy or like I haven't eaten for awhile.>>>>>I just know that when I realized that it was up to me to comfort this child within me, well, for one I didn't want to, cuz I hated her, and for another, I was resentful to, and for another...I wanted t to do it, and for me to maybe feel the (caring?) thru the child, cuz I (for unknown reasons) am not allowed.
I want to feel the peace and safe feeling a child feels when it is young and safe and being held by a loving parent. If its *I* that must supply it to my child...well...its just not the same, cuz then *I* won't get a chance to feel it, cuz Iam giving it to the child, but not to myself. I want to GET 'it', not just give 'it'.
Sort of like that well of 'need'. I think it relates to that.
<<<<<<This makes a lot of sense to me. I'll have to think about if I'm resentful. But I think I am sad that I'm not allowed to feel safe anymore, I have to make myself safe. And I was never very good at that.>>>>>A T's job, is to work themself out of a job...mebbe in some way you feel rejected by him pushing you to heal?
Maybe your child feels rejected by him saying he can;t comfort her, but that adult daisy must do this...
Dunno if that makes sense.
<<<<<Makes perfect sense. And I think rejected is exactly how I felt. And scolded. I want to do therapy right so I can be done with it but yes, it is scary to think about leaving this safe base.>>>Anyhow, when I read your post, i kinda understood, cuz I could feel it in my chest, and I don't usu feel that much, so I have wondered the same.
<<<<<I'm sorry you have such strong feelings around this too. It seems like someone should invent an easier way.
Posted by DAisym on August 21, 2007, at 1:19:06
In reply to Re: I'm a therapy weakling » DAisym, posted by RealMe on August 21, 2007, at 0:09:45
I'm finding that identifying how I feel in the moment is difficult. I've been trained to hide my feelings and certainly never give anyone the power to see you are upset. I can't yet identify what this triggers. Being pushed isn't new, my mother was the queen of pushiness. But maybe that is why it feels so bad?
I'm going to bed to hide under the covers and hope not to dream. Thanks for saying I'm not a weakling. I sure feel like one.
Posted by Dinah on August 21, 2007, at 8:05:26
In reply to Re: I'm a therapy weakling, posted by DAisym on August 21, 2007, at 1:15:13
My therapist has always said that when he pushes, I bite. When I try to encourage him to push me, he's very reluctant and when he does and I respond badly he says the therapeutic equivalent of "I told you so" and refuses to push again.
I think therapists have to work on a client by client basis, to find the right blend of support and change. My therapist's style may work well for me because I tend to take what he does and eventually incorporate it. Or I'll challenge his acceptance myself.
<<<<<<But I have never looked sick, or upset. I've kept the fearful child hidden and secret. I felt like I was doing the right thing by finding this part of me and letting her talk. Now it turns out I'm supposed to keep her quiet.
I don't think that's a fair conclusion from whatever he might have said. He's never encouraged you to keep any part of you quiet. It might feel that way, but I doubt the feelings reflect reality.
FWIW, if you can work really hard on identifying what you're feeling in the moment, it really can help. Sometimes I can't identify the actual feeling, but I've worked hard at being able to say "I don't understand what I'm feeling or why I'm feeling it, but I'm feeling pretty upset right now." I think I learned to do it by noticing cues that meant I was feeling something, or covering up some feeling, and then using creative visualization to open the doors to the feeling itself. It makes *such* a difference. While I'm certainly not perfect at it, and still get time delayed responses to therapy, when I do manage it it saves me the time between sessions stewing and adding layer upon layer to what he actually did say. And since he usually can calm me down anyway, it's easier to do it all at once.
I understand why you're feeling hurt. A push to change always seems to include an implication that you aren't fine just as you are. And that doesn't feel good. If you can, remember that your therapist isn't saying you aren't fine to him just as you are. He's worried that you aren't fine to *you* just as you are. While he may be totally accepting, he'd also like to push here and there to make your life better for yourself, not to make you more pleasing to him.
And I've got to say, complete and total acceptance can be a bit frustrating after a while. My therapist smiling with affection and saying "I know..." was nice for a bit, but then I wanted to shake him and say that I knew he knew, but that didn't help me change!
Or at least those are my two cents, based on my experience, and may be totally off the mark.
(BTW, my therapist does draw the line at suggesting that any part of me should show itself less. He's no idiot.)
Posted by B2chica on August 21, 2007, at 8:06:53
In reply to I'm a therapy weakling, posted by DAisym on August 20, 2007, at 21:58:08
hi ((((((Daisy)))))))
i wrote a response and ended up triggering myself...(sometimes i feel like such a d@rk). but i'll try it again.
if a T pushes me i usually (quickly) dissociate. or get a mind block.
i think we all know we need to move forward, the part that we object to is going there. we automatically revert to our old (protective) emotions.
sometimes it helps to have T pull me through it, asking questions, i am able to give 1-2 word responses, sometimes it's enough if T walks beside me. One time when trying to recall an old memory my old T told me to picture him in the room with me so that it wasn't so scary.but i think it's the nudging itself that could be triggering. i mean, well, its really triggering to me if someone tries to PUSH or talk their way into making you do what they want. for me i always had someone else pushing their 'want's on me even if they 'talked nice', the result i learned was hurtful to me. and sometimes when someone is nice that way it's actually worse on me than if they would be mean and yell saying what they wanted.
anyway.Hon you have the power inside you already, its just accessing it and that too will come in time.
***you are SOOO NOT a therapy weakling!
you very strong daisy.
though it may not seem like it at times, you ARE working very hard. give yourself time.
Posted by JoniS on August 21, 2007, at 8:24:52
In reply to I'm a therapy weakling, posted by DAisym on August 20, 2007, at 21:58:08
I sure don't believe you're a therapy weakling. I could sooo relate to your post. And, like Muffled, I often dissociate when I am pushed.
It is mysterious to me also about what is "the loss" Maybe for me it is I'm afraid I'll lose the comfort of staying in the routine. Like sitting in the same place at church, it's just where we are used to being. That sounds simple I know. A different scenario. I really struggled the first time I was in therapy and began to start "self-soothing" because I could see that when I did this, I was not in my routine of being constantly down and depressed. I actually began missing the part of me that stayed down - because that was what I was used to for soo many years.
Now in t when I am pushed, I think I'm afraid of losing my T and I'm afraid of a "change" in our relationship. I guess this is pretty much what you or muffled or RealMe already said so I don't know if I'm adding any value here. but my guess is that the fear is that your relationship will change and that you want your T to remain the one who "rescues you". I may be projecting my stuff on you, sorry if I am. Just 2 weeks ago I had a pretty major meltdown and afterward I realized that it was my T and only him that I wanted to lean on, I wanted his strength, and of course I realized that IRL that will not always be possible and it's going to have to be up to me.
I hope that after you've slept on it, you realize that you were being way too hard on yourself -
"...On the other hand, how am I ever going to get better and grow up and stop being controlled by old fears if I can't find my own power? ..... I don't know how to do that. I hear, "I expect you to use good judgement and not be ruled by fear. Be strong - I know you are strong. I expect you to comfort yourself, not reach out to me." Blah. He didn't say that, but it is what I hear..."You are getting better and better all the time. Sometimes baby steps and somtimes bigger ones. But there is no timetable, no requirement to measure yourself and determine where you "should be"
I get mad when my T pushes too, and I definitely want t to be all about "warm sessions and shared tears" in those sessions we're building the bond, and in the push sessions we're having to trust, rely on that bond, and take a big step forward. But when we cower back, it's ok, next time we'll be stronger and we'll do it.
Probably what hurts so much is fear of losing the T relationship as you know it. I don't know, just my guess, but that is such a Powerful realtionship for me, the thought of it changing or of losing it... scares me just to say that, let alone really think about it.
I hope today is a good day for you and that you wont be hard on yourself. Even though we know it, it bears repeating that Therapy is Hard. You are doing great work. Hang in there.
Posted by sunnydays on August 21, 2007, at 10:30:20
In reply to I'm a therapy weakling, posted by DAisym on August 20, 2007, at 21:58:08
I wish I knew Daisy. My therapist can push me to a certain degree if I'm in the right frame of mind for it, which I am sometimes. But other times the exact same thing will reduce me to tears for the night. If I'm already in the little-girl place seems to be when it upsets me. That's why my T tries to keep the conversation in areas where I'm more adult sometimes.
My T and I have had the discussion about telling him what doesn't work right then. Sometimes I can do it, but sometimes the upset doesn't come until later about a particular comment. Does that happen for you? It really can be useful if you can manage to figure it out, but I know it's really hard because I only manage to figure out it's happening a small percentage of the time.
Sometimes for me I think I feel like I need comfort that day but he's in a more problem-solving mode, or in the mood to push more. And so sometimes I think we just end up working at cross-purposes without knowing it. I wouldn't call it a secondary gain, though. Everyone needs that feeling.
I think that maybe you just aren't ready to be pushed. Maybe if you can see if it makes a difference whether you're feeling more like the little girl or more adult in session? I wish I had more advice to give. It's such a struggle sometimes, isn't it?
sunnydays
Posted by muffled on August 21, 2007, at 19:49:56
In reply to Re: I'm a therapy weakling, posted by DAisym on August 21, 2007, at 1:15:13
> >>>>>The loss.
> i have wondered that too.
> Maybe its finally giving up the dream that one day someone will save you?
> That you can't be 'saved', but that in fact, we have to take care of our own miserable selves.
> Maybe its losing the child that makes me sad. We used to hate her, but have come to realize she got good points too.
> <<<<I think this is true. I have come to realize that I do keep wishing to be saved. I've told a horrible story and then turned to my therapist and cried, "where were you? Why didn't you make him stop?" I'm not sure I know how to save myself, or worse, that i want to.**Hmmmm, good points :-( Cept I say it to God. Part of me hates Him SO much :-(
>
> >>>>>And there's fear, fear of NOT being sick anymore, cuz its all we know....the fearful child has been so strong in our makeup...how to overcome that?
> I dunno Daisy, these are things I say to myself.
> <<<<<<But I have never looked sick, or upset. I've kept the fearful child hidden and secret. I felt like I was doing the right thing by finding this part of me and letting her talk. Now it turns out I'm supposed to keep her quiet.**Hmmm, mebbe not so much keep her quiet, but accept her and comfort her, and.....I dunno, but we have always rejected the child, badly rejected her, nastily rejected her, but she wouldn't stop, she wouldn't go away, she kept haunting us. So now we trying to accept her, accept what she feels and for US to say ITS OK. I think its the only way to stop her. She's not all bad really. She mostly just scares us cuz there's rules bout 'stuff', and she wants to break the rules....and its just not allowed. So our latest gambit is to accept her, and not invalidate her, but she's not allowed to talk to noone. Its going mostly OK I think...mebbe, sorta. Oh hell I DON'T KNOW. But anyways, mebbe this can make some sense for you?
>
> >>>>My T used to push me just a bit, then I'd dissociate, and she'd back right off. I kinda wish she wouldn't have. Mebbe I'da found out something. Maybe not.
> I dunno.
> <<<<<Yeah, I was doing a lot of that this weekend and today. It feels kind of dizzy or like I haven't eaten for awhile.**Sorry you feeling bad :-( Sometimes it takes awhile to go away.
> >>>>>I just know that when I realized that it was up to me to comfort this child within me, well, for one I didn't want to, cuz I hated her, and for another, I was resentful to, and for another...I wanted t to do it, and for me to maybe feel the (caring?) thru the child, cuz I (for unknown reasons) am not allowed.
> I want to feel the peace and safe feeling a child feels when it is young and safe and being held by a loving parent. If its *I* that must supply it to my child...well...its just not the same, cuz then *I* won't get a chance to feel it, cuz Iam giving it to the child, but not to myself. I want to GET 'it', not just give 'it'.
> Sort of like that well of 'need'. I think it relates to that.
> <<<<<<This makes a lot of sense to me. I'll have to think about if I'm resentful. But I think I am sad that I'm not allowed to feel safe anymore, I have to make myself safe. And I was never very good at that.**yeah, well, guess we never totally safe, but the kids fear, well, she don't goto have that fear no more, not really. And you can keep her safe. Have you explored how to make yourself feel safer? I have 'Nasty' who can protect my physical safety. But as for that T safe thing...well, I gotta admit I haven't quite worked that out yet.....yeah, guess I pretyty much struggling and pissing myself off on that one all right...
>
> >>>>>A T's job, is to work themself out of a job...mebbe in some way you feel rejected by him pushing you to heal?
> Maybe your child feels rejected by him saying he can;t comfort her, but that adult daisy must do this...
> Dunno if that makes sense.
> <<<<<Makes perfect sense. And I think rejected is exactly how I felt. And scolded. I want to do therapy right so I can be done with it but yes, it is scary to think about leaving this safe base.
>
> >>>Anyhow, when I read your post, i kinda understood, cuz I could feel it in my chest, and I don't usu feel that much, so I have wondered the same.
> <<<<<I'm sorry you have such strong feelings around this too. It seems like someone should invent an easier way.**yeah.
M
Posted by DAisym on August 22, 2007, at 23:57:54
In reply to I'm a therapy weakling, posted by DAisym on August 20, 2007, at 21:58:08
Thank you all for the replies. I see I'm not alone in this. But is is so painful and hard, isn't it?
We've spent a couple of sessions trying to talk about what happened and why I got so upset. I still can't articulate exactly the feeling. Mostly what I can get is that I don't know how to use our (my therapist and mine) connection to feel strong. I seem to think that being strong severs the connection. And then I'm so terribly alone again. And that is just devastating.
He thinks that this is really, really old. I was alone with all the abuse and craziness and I had to handle it on my own. Having support from someone else meant telling them, and I just couldn't do that.
We also talked about Dinah's idea that his pushing feels like a critism, that I'm not OK the way I am. He said he pushes for me to be self-protective, not because I have "flaws." (my word) I said it feels like he has seen something in me that isn't right, before I saw it and before I could fix it or apologize for it. In other words, he noticed I'm not perfect. How can I want to be special to him if I'm not perfect? Then I don't deserve his caring or to be special.
He made a face and said, "perfect is boring. If I wanted a perfect patient, I'd just treat robots." Well, thank goodness I'm at least not boring. He also said that I do deserve his caring - I think he said, "why else would I put all this time and energy into our relationship and helping you feel better?" (yes, there is a smart @ss answer to that question.)
Today the topic was completely different, due to a melt down, but at one point he said, "I know you don't want me to challenge you, but you are being way too harsh with yourself right now." So at least I know he heard me and is taking it into consideration. Nothing like making your therapist gun-shy, is there?
Posted by RealMe on August 23, 2007, at 0:31:51
In reply to Re: I'm a therapy weakling, posted by DAisym on August 22, 2007, at 23:57:54
>
Well when one has to take care of one's self as a child with all the abuse, then allowing someone to help means you are weak--that was always how I saw it, and it fits for now; if I can't take care of all this myself, it means I am weak. Well in my head I know that is not true.
I decided to try to be just me and not the perfect patient as that doesn't work, and your therapist is right; perfect is boring. Who wants to be perfect and do everything right. No one would want to be around you, because they would feel like they could never measure up to you. Sounds like you have a really good therapist.
So, my suggestion; to the best of your ability try to be just you. IT is a lot easier then to make a connection, and when you do, it is likely it will scare the hell out of you. Maybe not, but it does me as then I am trusting someone who knows me in a way I don't know myself, and thay makes me vulnerable. So, it comes down to trust that the therapist will not intentionally hurt you, and if it happens, it is likely to be repairable as it will have been unintentional. Your post got me to really thinking too. Thanks.
RealMe (Oz)
Posted by DAisym on August 23, 2007, at 1:57:10
In reply to Re: I'm a therapy weakling » DAisym, posted by RealMe on August 23, 2007, at 0:31:51
<<<<<<So, my suggestion; to the best of your ability try to be just you. IT is a lot easier then to make a connection, and when you do, it is likely it will scare the hell out of you
>>>>>>Yes - it does. It is something that we talk about frequently, about the power trusting him and needing him gives him. What would I "allow" him to do, if I gave myself over to it completely? Intellectually I know he wouldn't ever hurt me. But there is still fear around all of this. Both about being hurt or being abandoned. Again.I want to just be myself. But I don't really know who that is anymore.
I'm glad I made you think. At least, I am if that is a good thing.
Posted by RealMe on August 23, 2007, at 20:08:16
In reply to Re: I'm a therapy weakling, posted by DAisym on August 23, 2007, at 1:57:10
I guess I meant by just be you to just let yourself go with the flow and don't worry about what your therapist might think. I am trying to do this, and it is really hard. I have already revealed some things that part of me wishes I could take back, and so then I start wondering if he will judge me in some way that I would not like. Even though I have seen him for only a few months, I don't believe he would hurt me. Well, I can say that today anyway. I am afraid of being hurt too, but I figure I have to take the risk. One thing I do know for sure is that I have survived lots of terrible hurts over the years, and so if I were hurt by him, I know I would survive. Not that I want to be hurt.
So, I am meaning to go ahead and say whatever comes to mind and don't monitor it before you speak. If I start talking and look down at the pattern of the rug on the floor, my therapist will wait maybe a minute or two and then ask me what am I thinking. So, I try to go ahead and tell him what I am hashing over in my head even though it is not figured out yet. Don't know if that makes sense.
RealMe (OZ)
Posted by DAisym on August 23, 2007, at 21:03:57
In reply to Re: I'm a therapy weakling » DAisym, posted by RealMe on August 23, 2007, at 20:08:16
Yes, it makes total sense. It is the "try to figure it out WITH me" conversation that my therapist often starts. Censoring what I say just is so automatic. I've learned to say, "well, I was going to say "blah blah" but I think I'd rather say "blada blada." That way he knows how my thoughts are unraveling.
I'm halfway through an interesting book on just this topic called "Side Effects." Adam Phillips writes about how the slip ups and asides in therapy are really what we should be paying attention to, which means speaking as freely as possible. It is just so hard!!
Posted by RealMe on August 29, 2007, at 22:30:43
In reply to Re: I'm a therapy weakling » RealMe, posted by DAisym on August 23, 2007, at 21:03:57
Yes it is very hard to just speak what is on your mind. On the otherhand, it takes a lot of energy to monitor oneself too. I guess I try as much as possible not to monitor, but I am far from successful. Once I get going on a topic, though, I don't monitor anymore. But my therapist has to encourage me often to get out of my head as he calls it and where I do all the self-talk and talk myself out of saying things. I am going to try getting out of my head this Friday, the 31st and see what happens.
RealMe
(Oz)
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