![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by daisym on June 12, 2004, at 20:00:35
I'm really struggling to understand how I can get so totally overwhelmed that I start to think I can't continue to live with all of this. Really. I push away the thoughts of what it will mean to my kids and it is almost as if a whole other person, who is completely done, takes over.
Most of the time I fight these thoughts. I tell myself that it can't get better if I'm not here to makes sure it does. I tell myself that I want the pain to die, not me. But sometimes I catch myself working out the details and realize I've been thinking about it for a long time. I convince myself that while I have the wish sometimes, I'm too responsible to act on it.
But there have been two times now (last October and last Thursday) when I scared myself. I couldn't get back to rational thought. I was split and all the sides of me were yelling at each other and at the core was this desire to make it all stop. One part of me was trying to keep me safe. She took me away from home to a safer place. She called the therapist. She signed into Open with "I'm in trouble" and made me connect to others until I was calm enough to go home and stay safe. In the words of Racer, she wore the seat belt.
On Friday, I got up, went to work for a little while and then came home and just hung out in my swing. I didn't talk to my therapist until 5pm -- 24 hours after I called. (That's a different story altogether.) By then I was beyond the crisis and not in any real danger. I felt tired, beat up and bruised instead. But I still told him about it though it felt weird and dramatic to repeat what had happened. I felt like someone telling a story about someone else. And it felt like it happened a long time ago and really far away.
This makes no sense to me. How can you go from really suicidal thinking and feeling to this flat emotional place so fast? I'm not on meds, so it isn't a change there. It occurred to me that perhaps these really horrible feelings connected to the suicidal ideation might be old. That maybe as a girl of 11 or 12, I thought these thoughts. And now we've touched them off again by going to the dark places in my mind. Maybe that is why they come and go so fast. But we've been working through the memories for months now, so that doesn't completely fit. And yes, life has been more stressful this week, especially at work. But that has happened lots of times.
Maybe this bounce is normal. You go completely to the bottom and hit, and go up again. It just feels wild and out of control to me. And I don't do "out of control" very well.
I really want to understand it so that I can try not to go there again. Anyone have any ideas about this? Can where you are in your therapy cause this too? And have you found that talking about it with your therapist makes it better? I'm sure he is going to want to but it is hard to explain how it got so bad so fast when I'm not there anymore.
Thanks, btw, to those of you who hung in there with me Thu/Fri (via email, IMs and Open). I really needed you all and feel blessed that your support was available.
Posted by Poet on June 12, 2004, at 22:47:42
In reply to Suicidal ideation question - *trigger potential*, posted by daisym on June 12, 2004, at 20:00:35
Daisy,
I'm sorry you were in crisis and glad you came out of it with the realization that you need to know why you were thinking so strongly about suicide.
If it's not too painful, think back to when you were 11 or 12. Where you thinking of suicide? Did something happen recently that made you feel like that unhappy child again?
My first major depression and suicide thoughts were at 18 and I can draw a connection to then and now. I thought I had no future and was a failure who would never be successful at anything and that's how I feel now.
I wish I had an answer for you as to how you can be suicidal one day, and seem to be out of it the next, I've never had that experience. You are a strong person to realize what was happening and to decide to question why. Remember that strength and call on it. Also call on the compassion you show others, like me, and save some for yourself.
((((Big hugs))))to you. Thank you for all the help you've given me. I hope I can help you as much. Take care.
Poet
Posted by Racer on June 13, 2004, at 2:02:35
In reply to Suicidal ideation question - *trigger potential*, posted by daisym on June 12, 2004, at 20:00:35
Daisy, depression is a giant Beast who's only goal is our destruction. Whatever it takes to bring it about.
The first thing it does is to strap a pair of goggles on us that see only straight ahead, and only a short distance. That's the same sort of thing I'm struggling with about meds, because what I feel RIGHTTHISMINUTE is all I've ever felt, so how can meds help? It's a real problem, and a real part of depression. There really is a good part to it, though, as you've found out: you also can't remember how bad it actually felt as soon as it's over. (Tuesday I was actively suicidal, now I don't understand that anymore. Same as you experienced. And I'm ashamed to admit to my planning. Same as you experienced.) ('Course, I tend to think that you're safer than I am, because it still seems alien to you. You can't really imagine it, and you know what? It's not alien to me anymore. That's meant to encourage you, Daisy. You're still testing the waters, I think, and trust me -- go find a nice stream somewhere, or the ocean. The waters in this pond are stagnant and polluted. Swim where you'll be safer, 'K?)
I have a 'journal' on ths computer, and when I feel that way I try to write it down. I also have my little half finished mood chart thing, and make notes several times per day to keep track of what I feel like at various times during the day, and any events associated with them. That helps me a little, at least being able to look back two or three days later to see that I was a 2 (noticeably depressed, but able to function) rather than a 5 (hopeless and suicidal) at 4:30PM. It helps. (If you want a copy of the Word document that I made for my print out, let me know. I can send it to you if you think it would help you.)
Hang in, Daisy, hang in. You may be crazy, but you're not going crazier -- that is the nature of depression, to rob you of anything beyond THIS moment. That's why people suicide, of course. Because they literally cannot see anything beyond the pain they feel this moment. Even if yesterday wasn't so bad, and tomorrow promises to be better, THIS MOMENT is impossible. And we'll all tell you it wasn't impulsive, and to us it really wasn't. (One day when I'm stronger, I'll tell you about last summer.)
I hope some of that helped.
Posted by Aphrodite on June 13, 2004, at 7:37:28
In reply to Suicidal ideation question - *trigger potential*, posted by daisym on June 12, 2004, at 20:00:35
Two members of my family have committed suicide. I remember when my grandfather did so when I was 20, I stood at his winter graveside service shaking my head -- I thought he had to be the most selfish person in the world to hurt all of us.
And along came me at the age of 26 . . .
I had a summer of tragedy and pain, and for the first time in my life, I became suicidal. I had a plan, a date, no hope, and I finally understood what it is like to die of depression and what my family members had gone through.
At that rock bottom stage, I started to pull myself out of it taking very small steps. Then, I had a child and didn't go "there" very much any more.
But now that I am in therapy, and my child is getting older and isn't as needy, those demons who had visited from time to time have now taken up permanent residence in my mind. My therapist and I have discussed it. He said I suffer more than people he knows who did commit suicide.
Your cycle of suicidal desparation followed by emotional exhaustion and depletion is a familiar one to me. In the bleakest moments, I can rationalize and justify hurting those around me. It's very easy because suicidal thoughts for me are accompanied by feelings of worthlessness and despair and the thought that everyone would be better off without me.
My therapist and I worked once on avoiding triggers. For me, they are sleeping alone at home during the day -- can't do that. (That REALLY messes with my thinking!) Also, I avoid situations where I'll be out of town by myself at a conference b/c leaving town to hurt myself has been part of previous plans. There are others, too, and it does help to recognize and avoid triggers.
I know when it's coming on b/c when I'm depressed, I try to organize, clean, etc. if I am at home. If I just start doing the dishes, I'm OK. But, if I started organizing my personal things, suicidal ideation is around the corner. If I let it run wild, I'll start destroying personal letters, writings, journals, etc., cleaning up the writings on my hard drive -- things I wouldn't want anyone to find. I'll rationally say that I'm just being organized, but I'm really acting out on part of my plan. (I have none of my journals from childhood to age 26.)
When these times are over, I'm exhausted and spent and worst of all, self-berating for ever giving in to those feelings to begin with b/c, of course, "I know better."
Therapy has brought these feelings back up and more so lately as I open up more. I think the best thing I can do is try to recreate that frame of mind and behavior in his office so he can point out the many errors in my thinking that I cannot do for myself. You know, mentally slap me around, if you will:)
Daisy, it's a horrible nightmare that robs the joy out of your life. It sounds like you haven't discussed it much with your therapist. I hope you will -- for me, I'm glad another human being knows because isolation only feeds the flames.
Posted by fallsfall on June 13, 2004, at 10:54:44
In reply to Suicidal ideation question - *trigger potential*, posted by daisym on June 12, 2004, at 20:00:35
>This makes no sense to me. How can you go from really suicidal thinking and feeling to this flat emotional place so fast?
I think that the emotionally flat place is a coping mechanism. The pain has been so great that you have been desperate for a way to make it stop - this is the suicidal planning. But then (fortunately) you are able to push the pain away and bury it - leaving you in the emotional void. So while the void is not a comfortable place to be (you *know* that it is not how you truly feel - it is not natural), it protects you from taking irreversible actions. This is good.
It speaks to your strength that you can get to this place and forbid the suidical intent. When you are with your therapist, you can try to deal with the causes of the pain. The hope is that eventually you can come to terms with things so that the pain is not so intense. But until you can do that you *must* find ways to protect yourself. And this is what you have done. If you couldn't get yourself out of the suicidal place - if you were still planning today, and collecting items and cleaning up loose ends - then it would be time to go into a hospital. The hospital can help provide the structure and holding and support that you need to see that there is a life worth living.
So, since the planning and preparing stages can be paralyzing this is when you must get help. My experience has been that the periods of being submerged get longer as the process continues. This means that in the beginning I might submerge for 15 minutes, and later in the day I might submerge again for 30 - 45 minutes etc. But in between the submersions, I am aware of what is happening. This is the time when I need to call my therapist or go to the hospital - because I can't be sure that I won't submerge again, but not come back up.
There are ways of working to be able to "tolerate the distress". Getting involved in life (also known as distraction) is a very important tool because it can break up the focus on ending the pain. It can give you hope that there are parts of life that you do want to be able to stay with. This is what you did when you left your house - you took action to break the "spell".
And, of course, you do need to face the pain (with your therapist) so that you can eventually resolve it, and not have to keep trying to find ways to protect yourself from it.
Yes, talking about certain things in therapy can increase suicidal ideation. Make sure your therapist knows what things do cause this increase for you. This doesn't mean that you will want to avoid these topics, but it does mean that both you and your therapist should be aware of the topics that are dangerous for you and use caution when they are being discussed.
When you are back into a more stable place, please have a serious talk with yourself and promise yourself that you will ask for help when things start getting serious (when you are planning and preparing). You need to make this decision BEFORE you are in that place because you won't be able to decide this when you are inside. It will be hard enough to ask for help.
You will need to have a strategy for asking for help - write it down - what are the phone numbers you can call? You won't be able to look them up. What will you say? Come up with 3 or 4 words that will let the person you contact understand that you need help. How long will you wait for a return call before you try calling someone else? You won't be able to make these decisions when you are in the middle of things. You need at least one action that you can take that will not rely on an individual person being available - like calling your local crisis line or dialing 911. You need to take this action when the people you are counting on can't come through for some reason (they are on vacation, or sick, or dealing with their own crises, or they didn't pay their phone bill).
You need to decide that you *will* ask for help, and know *how* to do that. This decision needs to be made *before* things get really bad. Aphrodite is so right when she says that isolation feeds the flames.
I'm so sad that you know about this place.
Posted by Racer on June 13, 2004, at 13:34:40
In reply to Re: Suicidal ideation question - *trigger potential* » daisym, posted by fallsfall on June 13, 2004, at 10:54:44
The advice to have that list of what to do in that sort of crisis is the best advice -- bar none -- that I've ever come across anywhere. Thank you.
I'm going to try to make that list for myself. Thank you for suggesting it.
Posted by holymama on June 13, 2004, at 18:30:51
In reply to Best advice I've ever read anywhere » fallsfall, posted by Racer on June 13, 2004, at 13:34:40
Dear Daisym,
I'm relieved and saddened to know there are others out there who have the same kind of suicidal thinking processes as I do. THough I AM on medications. THe process is the same though. I can be really frighteningly depressed and hopeless for a few hours, making plans, looking for the right pills to take, assuring myself that my 3 children and husband will be better off without me...it's like a few days of playing with the idea of 'should I or shouldn't I' has finally come to a conclusion, and I've decided 'I should'. I've had quite a few days like this in the past year or so. I scare myself, I start thinking I should call someone, sometimes I do, but always the feeling passes and a few hours later or the next morning I wonder how I could ever have thought such things.
My therapist and doctor know I've been unstable in this way lately (I think you might be able to call yourself that right now too), and so we three made a deal. If I ever feel that way, I just need to check myself into the hospital. Better safe than sorry, I guess. Even if I check myslef into a hospital a handful of times until I get more stable (we're working on getting my meds working better), at least I'll be safe until the feeling passes. For some reason, this plan gave me a lot of relief. Just having a plan, knowing what to do when I feel that way, so I don't have to question myself (is it bad enough for the hospital? won't I feel differently in a few hours?) and knowing exactly which number to dial (my therapist's) made me feel a lot safer. I actually did check myself into a hospital a couple of weeks ago. It's not solved everything for me, but I like knowing I have a plan. I don't want to kill myself. I know that shen I'm more rational. I'm afraid of how irrational I can be and how desperate when I'm in that frame of mind. Sorry to babble so much, I'm just really relating to your story and concerns. I would really love to hear how to actually *stop* my mind from going there, into thinking about suicide. It's totally horrible and destructive. And now my husband tels me that I hold everyone *hostage* when I say I want to kill myself, which makes me feel guilty and selfish on top of everything else.
Posted by antigua on June 13, 2004, at 18:31:26
In reply to Suicidal ideation question - *trigger potential*, posted by daisym on June 12, 2004, at 20:00:35
My heart hurts for you Daisy. I don't know if it's better that we stay away from each other or not because we are in the same situation right now.
I don't want you to die. You have kids too, but you said something really important to me today. Sometimes it just hurts too da@@ much. More than I love my kids. I tell my T and she listens, and I tell her how serious this is right now, because I'm afraid I'm going to be overcome. She tells me that wishes aren't the actions. I know that, but what about being set into overdrive (or into total dissasociation) so that I don't even know what I'm doing? She says it's just the constant fear I've lived with my whole life. Should I believe her?
The lows that you mention were evened out for me (when it worked) w/medication. It was a lifesaver for me. I can't tolerate such swings in emotions.
Also, about not talking to your T for 24 hrs. I feel so needy right now,and I've called mine, but I realize I have to hold this together myself. As good as she is, she can't save me; nobody can save me, but ME. I can carry her w/me, but I have to live alone. We all live alone. It's good, but also so very, very hard.
antigua
Posted by shadows721 on June 13, 2004, at 20:58:40
In reply to Suicidal ideation question - *trigger potential*, posted by daisym on June 12, 2004, at 20:00:35
Daisy,
You are having some insight into the real cause of these feelings. Yes, they may be old. It's actually normal to go through these feeling when you are digging at painful memories. When going through them, we forgot the feelings of that 11 to 12 y/o. She was wanting to die from what she went through. Perhaps, to her, it was a way out. Maybe the pain was just too much to bear alone.
You are probably at a better place now than then. That's why these very unsettling feelings arise for you to feel. That's the mechanism of memory work that the hardest. Sometimes, the urges are actually urges from yesterday and not today. There is a split. The child within is still there and you are now taking care of her. She is trusting you and that's why these very painful feelings are arising from the dead so to speak. When these feelings come up, affirmations and support systems need to be in place until the wave of these feeling settle back down.
Sometimes, these feelings come up right before a memory. It is as though the child part within doesn't realize they actually lived though the terrible ordeal. It's the adults part to keep saying over and over again, "You are safe with me. I will not hurt you. I will not allow you to hurt yourself." It's hard work. That child part deep with in the subconscious does not realize it's the year 2004. It's the year it happened. The subconscious knows no time clocks. That's why it's so important to keep reminder yourself (and that young girl) it's 2004 and I lived through that back then. Do conforting things for yourself. Remember, you are a survivor. You have the power to live through these feelings by staying safe.
Posted by daisym on June 13, 2004, at 22:41:08
In reply to Re: Suicidal ideation question - *trigger potentia » daisym, posted by Poet on June 12, 2004, at 22:47:42
Poet,
Knowing I'm not alone helps me tons. I read about how you struggle and marvel at YOUR strength. I appreciate that you are willing to share some of it with me.
It is amazing to me that I can ask a question like this and get back honest answers and not "just think happy thoughts!"
Take good care.
D
Posted by daisym on June 13, 2004, at 23:00:25
In reply to The Beast » daisym, posted by Racer on June 13, 2004, at 2:02:35
Good name...accurate description. I feel like the goal of this beast is to suck every piece of competence and selflove out of me and leave this shell that looks like me, talks like me but just simply exists. I want to LIVE, not just get through each day or week. I want to look forward to things, get excited about shoes and chocolate cake. I don't want to be torn inside about whether I'm more useful here or out of the way. I don't want to hurt so much that I wonder if I'm physically ill...like something wrong with my heart.
I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who is mortified looking back at the planning. I feel like drama queen extraordinare! It so isn't me. I guess I read you as saying if I continue to question why I feel this way, there remains hope. I "hope" you are right. I scared myself. I still feel a certain trepidation trying to think about what exactly cause me to slide so hard and so fast.
I too keep an electronic journal. When I read over my notes from Thursday, I get incredibly sad. I was trying so hard to explain why...but I think I was writing it to myself, not to anyone else.
I'm sorry you are in this space as well. I hope I didn't make it worse in anyway. You always make me feel better somehow, like a warmth through cyber space that I can wrap around myself. Maybe it is those things you are always knitting. You've created a cyber-sweater for me.
weak smile
Daisy
Posted by daisym on June 13, 2004, at 23:26:22
In reply to Re: Suicidal ideation question - *trigger potentia » daisym, posted by Aphrodite on June 13, 2004, at 7:37:28
A-
I'm sorry for your experiences and for the way you feel lately. But you and I both know that "knowing better" doesn't have anything to do with this. Before all of this, I thought it was a selfish act too. I had a brother in law who did it 18 yrs. ago. I watch the effects on the family. But in that space of sheer soul-seering pain, it is only about making it stop. Stepping out. Only the clarity of time allows me to reflect on what it means to others. I have no words to leave that will explain that it isn't about anybody except me.I have to tell you, I never thought about destroying my journals. Lots of other stuff is taken care of. I'll have to think about what to do about those.
>>> It sounds like you haven't discussed it much with your therapist. I hope you will -- for me, I'm glad another human being knows because isolation only feeds the flames.
Actually, when this first happened I did finally tell him. And he was great about it all. He took it very seriously and made sure I knew I could and should tell him anytime this came up. But the past few weeks I've been reading and researching some of the "best practices" about therapy for adults who suffered childhood abuse. Most of these warn how hard it gets for the therapist to work with us...how draining, etc. There is a lot about dependency and how it is best to avoid this. So I've been holding back. We uncovered a pretty shocking memory a few weeks ago and I've been struggling with it a lot on my own. Not completely, but I've been withdrawing, pulling inward and away from him. He called me on it Wednesday and I told him about the web sites on Thursday. He was frustrated. He has always, always made it clear that he believes that we can't get through all of this if I don't allow the attachment. He does know how hard that is for me.
When I talked to him on Friday about Thursday night we agreed that I get this way when I've pushed him away. I feel so alone in it, and I know I can't cope with it alone. He asked me if I could promise him that I wouldn't hurt myself and that if I felt I was going to, I would call him first. He also extracted a promise to not hold back from him, to not protect him.
I honestly don't know which is going to be harder to keep. And why it feels so weird to have had that discussion. There are so many things these days that just don't fit my image of myself. *sigh*
Thanks for your ongoing support.
Daisy
Posted by daisym on June 13, 2004, at 23:49:38
In reply to Re: Suicidal ideation question - *trigger potential* » daisym, posted by fallsfall on June 13, 2004, at 10:54:44
Posted by daisym on June 14, 2004, at 0:26:01
In reply to Re: Suicidal ideation question - *trigger potential* » daisym, posted by fallsfall on June 13, 2004, at 10:54:44
I have read your post 4 times today. It makes so much sense. You give me too much credit for strength though. I think I was operating on primal instinct.I keep going back to your last paragraph though. How do you get the words out in such a way that you don't sound dramatic? That people don't think you are "just" having a bad day. Remember, practically no one in my life can see the suffering. I tried to talk to my hubby today about how far down I am. I think he got it because he asked, "You aren't going to kill yourself, are you?" But even as he asked the question, I could hear a "gee, aren't you being just a little ridiculous" quality to his voice. He didn't ask the question in any sort of a serious concerned way. He was letting me know what I sounded like. (His solution, btw, was that I should find a new job.)
It was really hard for me to have that conversation with him, as limited as it was. I can't imagine saying to him, or anyone, I'm seriously suicidal. Yes, it is pride. Its one of the few strong things left. I guess this goes to going to the hospital as well. It is beyond the pale for me that I even have to think about all this.
But you did make me think about what I need to talk about more in therapy. Coming to terms with it all sounds almost impossible. But figuring out those tricky triggers is important because it got so bad so fast. And you are right, I really didn't know what to do when I couldn't reach my Therapist.
I'm going to steal your word "submerged" when describing how I felt. I've been referring to drowning but I think submerged helps explain the up and down of all of this. While you are under, it feels impossible. But once you've emerged you don't feel the panic of losing all your air and struggling against it, so you can think more clearly.
It is clear to me that unless you've been to this place, you can't understand how tight it holds you. I'm sorry you've been there too.
You know you are near the top of my support plan list, right? I don't know what I would do without you...especially when I have to live through the "I can't find my Therapist terror." You kept me from allowing my imagination to run wild and let all those abandonment fears come calling again. I think my Therapist owes you big time, can you imagine the mess I would have been by the time he finally called if you hadn't been running interference for him?! I think I'll tell him that tomorrow.
Seriously, thanks. For all the advice and a lot more. :)
a droopy daisy
Posted by daisym on June 14, 2004, at 0:32:06
In reply to Re: Best advice I've ever read anywhere, posted by holymama on June 13, 2004, at 18:30:51
HM -
Your last line really struck a cord in me
"And now my husband tels me that I hold everyone *hostage* when I say I want to kill myself, which makes me feel guilty and selfish on top of everything else."
This is one of the reasons I hesitate to tell anyone how I'm feeling. It feels like crying wolf, without the purposeful intent. How do you respond to that, except to keep it all inside and try not to dump it out on others?
I hope you are getting the ongoing support you need. It sounds so difficult. Thank you for sharing your story. It is nice to know I'm not alone too, though I wish no one had to go through this and feel this bad.
Keep taking care of yourself. And keep posting here!
Daisy
Posted by daisym on June 14, 2004, at 0:43:58
In reply to Re: Suicidal ideation question - *trigger potential* » daisym, posted by antigua on June 13, 2004, at 18:31:26
Somehow staying away from each other doesn't seem to be the answer. I need you because I know you understand what I'm going through. And that is so important to me right now. I feel like I'm in shadow somehow, like people see what they want to and nothing more, and nothing less. I feel like screaming, "Can't you see I'm hurting?! Please DON'T give me yet another problem to solve!" But of course I swallow the screams like I've always done.
I know I have to find a way to do this myself. But right now, I need to lean a little, especially on my Therapist and on Babble. Writing helps me more than anything else and I just can't keep coping with the memories on my own. I need to tell him, to take someone with me into the dark places. Maybe he can bring a flashlight or a torch and banish the demons. I'm glad you called your therapist. I think you need her too.
Please keep posting. Even if it is one sentence, "today sucked." Then I'll know that you at least had today. I hope your daughter is coping and not driving you nuts. Talk about a life distraction!
Hugs from me.
Daisy
Posted by daisym on June 14, 2004, at 0:56:13
In reply to Re: Suicidal ideation question - *trigger potential*, posted by shadows721 on June 13, 2004, at 20:58:40
Can I ask if you've lived through this yourself? You got it exactly right. I woke up this morning with yet another piece of this awful puzzle of the past. It still takes my breath away how much I've chosen not to remember. I thought I always "knew" but I really didn't. I seem to be having a pattern of lately of feeling these memories coming, fighting against them and then "just" waking up with new knowledge.
I hope to someday be able to do what you suggested. Comforting the younger parts of me is tremendously hard. I want to push her away, because "she" carries all the pain and she is going against all of "our" defenses and is telling (finally) what happened. If she would just hush up, "we" would be fine. (OK, I know this isn't true, but somehow I wish it were.)
I thought I would be a lot further in the process of integrating what happened and accepting it after a year in therapy. I make myself crazy trying to pretend that I'm OK with looking at all of this and sorting out the effects and contributions to how I feel now.
I'm trying to comfort myself. I've spent a ton of time on my swing (my kids built a bench swing for me in the backyard for Mother's Day this year) and I finished two books over the weekend, The Notebook and the Secret Life of Bees. I ignored the work I brought home from the office, which I will pay for tomorrow. But, oh well...
Take good care.
Posted by ghost on June 14, 2004, at 0:57:57
In reply to Suicidal ideation question - *trigger potential*, posted by daisym on June 12, 2004, at 20:00:35
i dont think this is abnormal. i'm glad you made it, too. really glad.
Posted by rs on June 14, 2004, at 6:07:06
In reply to Re: Suicidal ideation question - *trigger potentia, posted by daisym on June 13, 2004, at 23:26:22
Hi Daisy. Again do not post here often but read. I am so sorry about this. Understand how you feel especially about pulling back. Please do not. He cares and wants to help you. Falls has been much support for me with this. Know I care and think your a strong person with much going on. you deserve a great therapist that cares.
May I ask where the information you metioned is from. Is is web sites? Thanks. Hugs if ok
Posted by gardenergirl on June 14, 2004, at 7:42:43
In reply to Need Aspirin for heart aches » antigua, posted by daisym on June 14, 2004, at 0:43:58
Daisy,
I wanted to let you know I have been thinking about you. I wish I had something to add here, but right now my brain is either really full or really empty. There's a lot going on with family and health stuff.Please take care and know that you are in my thoughts.
gg
Posted by fallsfall on June 14, 2004, at 9:14:54
In reply to Tell me the three or four words » fallsfall, posted by daisym on June 14, 2004, at 0:26:01
>
> I have read your post 4 times today. It makes so much sense. You give me too much credit for strength though. I think I was operating on primal instinct.*** yes - you were operating on instinct, and your instinct makes you strong.
>
> I keep going back to your last paragraph though. How do you get the words out in such a way that you don't sound dramatic? That people don't think you are "just" having a bad day. Remember, practically no one in my life can see the suffering. I tried to talk to my hubby today about how far down I am. I think he got it because he asked, "You aren't going to kill yourself, are you?" But even as he asked the question, I could hear a "gee, aren't you being just a little ridiculous" quality to his voice. He didn't ask the question in any sort of a serious concerned way. He was letting me know what I sounded like. (His solution, btw, was that I should find a new job.)
>
> It was really hard for me to have that conversation with him, as limited as it was. I can't imagine saying to him, or anyone, I'm seriously suicidal. Yes, it is pride. Its one of the few strong things left. I guess this goes to going to the hospital as well. It is beyond the pale for me that I even have to think about all this.***[Pre-script: This is just a suggestion on how you could approach this. I base this suggestion on my experience as someone who has both said the 3 or 4 words and someone who has heard them. Your mileage may vary.]
*** It took a lot of courage to talk to your husband. And he did, in a sense, understand what you were saying - that's good. His illness has shown him what despair and hopelessness feels like, so at least he should be able to relate on some level. I think that you need to tell him that you are afraid that you might not be able to keep yourself from wanting to kill yourself. Tell him that you are afraid that you may get to a point where you need him to get you to a safe place.
At this point, you need to have a couple of real, live people who know that you are in crisis right now. You don't need to give them the details. All they need to know is that you have a wonderful therapist, but that you need to be sure that you have an emergency plan in place in case you end up in an emergency situation. Tell them that you (the "planner" that you are) will feel better if you have a emergency plan, and if the people who you might need are aware of your emergency plan.
If it is at all possible, your husband should be one of these people. You should choose one person at work for this role. And didn't you say that you have started to talk just a little bit to a friend or two? Consider adding a friend or two who knows that you are having a hard time.
So you should have 3 or 4 real people on your list. (Of course, your therapist would be the first one you call. You can always call me, or sign on to babble, but if you DO end up in an emergency, you will need a real, live person who can physically be WITH you to help you.)
What do you tell these people? You tell them that you are trying to come to terms with abuse from your childhood (can you tell them that? - nothing more than that, not what kind of abuse, not who or when or what or how much. If they ask for details tell them that you have a wonderful therapist, and that you really can't talk about it with anyone else, but you appreciate their concern). That this work is getting a bit scary for you and that you need to know that there are people you can call who will know how to help you. That they are among the group of people who you trust most in the world, and that - if they are willing - that you would feel so much better if you knew that you could call them if you get into an emergency. You can tell them that knowing that you HAVE an emergency plan will help reduce the chances that you will have an emergency.
So, at this point, they are concerned because Daisy always has it all together and Daisy is the one who THEY would go to in an emergency. And they want to know more so they can figure out how to help you. And they are honored to be on your list of people who you trust. They will probably want to be able to DO something to help you - I tell people that hugs really help - but depending on how you feel about hugs that might not work for you. You can tell them that knowing that they are *there* is helpful - that an email every so often would let you know that they are available to you. Tell them that you really don't expect (or want) to ever really need them like this, but that you would feel better knowing that they were there. Tell them that by agreeing to be on your list of people to call that they ARE doing what you really need the most.
Tell them that there are 3 or 4 or however many there are on your list of people to call (this doesn't count your therapist or babble) so that they know that if you can't reach them for some reason that you DO have other people to call - that they don't have to follow you around making sure you are all right all the time. So let them know that there are others on your list, but it is a short list.
Let them know that you WILL call them if you need to. But also tell them that you really want to be able to continue your life as normally as possible, so if they can pretend in real life that you've never had this conversation with them it would be helpful to you. Ask them to just tell you if they are going out of town for a week so you will know if you should not expect to be able to reach them. (In reality, each person will know that they are at the top of the list at particular times - your husband in the evenings when you are home, your work friend during work hours, etc. What you are hoping for is that they will keep their cell phones with them, and check regularly for messages, that if they are going to not be where you would expect them to be that they would let you know (like if your work friend is going to take the afternoon off for some reason). Each person doesn't have to be THERE all the time, but it is helpful for you to know who is likely to be available at a particular time so that you know who, on your short list, to call first. It is important to make sure that they know that it is YOUR responsibility to let them know when you are having an emergency - that they don't need to decide FOR you if it is an emergency. This keeps you in control, and makes it so that they don't feel like they have to keep checking up on you all the time. By the same token, though, when they see you and ask "How are you?" you DO have to give them some semblance of a true answer - the same way that you do for me. "I'm OK" means they don't need to worry. "Hanging in" means that things are rough, but that you are handling it. "I'm here..." means that they should let you know where they are, and maybe ask you again in a couple of hours. "Not so good" means that they should ask you if you want their help. "Remember when I told you I might need you sometime to help me?" or "I need your help now" means that you are asking them to implement the emergency plan.)
So what do you want them to DO if you actually are having an emergency? You want them to physically stay with you, or at least be in easy phone contact (but since you will only be calling them if you are seriously suicidal, you really should try to get someone to "watch" you). They can make sure that you have contacted your therapist, or keep you company while you try to get hold of him. If your therapist recommends, or if YOU decide they should take you to the hospital. You should figure out in advance what hospital you would prefer to go to. I have contacted my therapist in these cases, and she talked to the Psych hospital and I was able to go directly there. Usually, Psych hospitals would prefer that you don't just show up on their doorstep - so they will recommend that you go to the nearest emergency room and be evaluated there. The emergency room then makes arrangements with the Psych hospital. It can take HOURS to get through the emergency room process - they will do a brief medical exam, and then call someone to do a psych evaluation (at least this is how it works where I live). It can take that person as many as 4 hours to get to you (they might be evaluating someone else at a different emergency room). So if your friend can keep you company in the emergency room this is a wonderful gift. Bring something to do, if you can (a deck of cards can keep your hands busy without really requiring you to think very much, bring your favorite comfort toy, put a Silly Putty egg in your pocketbook, word search books - where you find words in a grid of "random" letters - can give you the illusion of finding order in chaos [or they can frustrate you completely]). Hopefully your friend can either listen if you want to talk, or can fill up the time with trivial amusing chatter. The other reason to have your friend stay with you in the emergency room is that if you show up there and say that you are suicidal the hospital MUST make sure that someone is watching you all the time. The hospital I usually go to puts psych patients in the room across the hall from the security office and requires that we leave the door open. If, however, you have a friend who will agree to stay with you and make sure that you stay safe, they let us close the door. I have also seen hospitals "post" someone in a chair outside of the room. It is MUCH better to have a friend with you. Your friend can also communicate your needs (hunger, headache, etc.) to the nurses so that you don't have to communicate as much.
But you don't have to tell them all of this. Just tell them that you should try to get in touch with your therapist. That it would be helpful if they could stay with you to keep you company. Tell them that you might need them to drive you to XYZ hospital, and if they could stay with you there that it would be helpful, but that if they can't stay that once they get you to the hospital that they have done what you need them to do. That is all you need to tell them.
These people do not need to decide what you need to do - that is between you and your therapist (or if you can't reach him and are really distressed, between you and the hospital). *IF* you ask them for help they need to do two things: 1. "watch you", but you can call it "keep you company" and 2. help you get physically where you need to go. Driving yourself in these situations is not usually a good idea.
Hopefully, all you will need these people for is to help keep you safe while you try to contact your therapist. Your therapist, Babble (either posts or in Open), or I can help you decide if you need to go to the hospital - then, if needed, one of your emergency people can get you there safely.
(((((...a droopy daisy)))))...
Falls.
Posted by pegasus on June 14, 2004, at 11:21:42
In reply to Suicidal ideation question - *trigger potential*, posted by daisym on June 12, 2004, at 20:00:35
Oh Daisy, I'm so sorry things have gotten so bad for you. I'm glad that babble, and especially fallsfall, are helping. I feel so bad for you that it is such a challenge to communicate about this to the people around you. Are your 3 or 4 words "I need help. I feel suicidal."? OK, that's 6. But I would think it's hard to misinterpret? I know it's so tough for you to ask for help. Maybe you can say "I'm afraid" instead?
I love falls advice, and I hope you are able to come up with an emergency plan. You're so precious to us here in babble world. Please keep us updated when you can.
(((daisy)))
pegasus
Posted by deirdrehbrt on June 14, 2004, at 12:15:29
In reply to Re: Suicidal ideation question - *trigger potential*, posted by pegasus on June 14, 2004, at 11:21:42
Hi Daisy,
I don't spend alot of time outside of social, but my heart goes out to you here. I think I know nearly exactly how you feel. I know what it's like for your kids to disappear in the fog of pain. I know how much more horrible you feel just for that.
I know what it's like to wake up remembereing more than you did when you went to bed. I know how frightening even going to bed can be.
I know what it's like to see people around you manage to escape through suicide and to wish you could join them; only to be reminded that your kids need you, and then feeling that your children are an anchor holding you here, in your pain.
I also know what it's like to have friends that care so much that they are willing to go without sleep, without being home, without eating, comforting me when I'm in the ER drinking charcoal, getting tube after tube of blood drawn, IV's inserted, EKG's, and tons of other things done.
I know what it's like to be there with that friend, and not have family ever come to visit.
I also know that my T cares, that this friend, and others care, even if family doesn't.
What I have learned, and I am by no means free from the claws of depression and suicidality, is that these friends matter so much; that if I can't find a reason to live, perhaps they can give me one.
Journaling is very important to me. I use it as a way to communicate things to my T when I can't say things. I write my journal by hand, partly because it's more convenient ( I can do it anytime, anywhere ) and partly because by looking at the handwriting, I know who wrote it and how they were feeling.
A plan to deal with suicidal feelings is really important. Knowing who you can call at any time of the day or night really helps. Having friends who know what is going on now really helps. A phone number that you can call in the middle of the night can be a lifesaver
Falls is very right, and really knows what happens. I trust just about everything she said in that post.
One thing that could be helpfull in an emergence plan is a list of phone numbers. The following might be good to keep with you:Emergency services,
Local emergency room
Close friend(s)
Therapist
Psychiatrist
Primary care doc.(for hospital reference)
Your own number. (when stressed, you can forget)
It's amazing what you might forget in the ER. Should you become hospitalized, the other numbers can make the task of aftercare easier for the social workers.Sometimes having a self-care plan can keep you from going deeper into the suicidal thoughts. It helps you to remember that the suicidality is more a result of the illness than what your rational mind wishes.
It sort of hurts me to know where you are coming from. These are feelings I would rather not know. If it helps to understand your pain right now, then in one sense it's a good thing. I hope that you can keep yourself out of that dark place.
Dee.
Posted by Poet on June 14, 2004, at 14:41:02
In reply to Tell me the three or four words » fallsfall, posted by daisym on June 14, 2004, at 0:26:01
I wish I had the right words for you. I wish you weren't feeling the way you are.
((((Daisy)))))
Poet
Posted by shadows721 on June 14, 2004, at 18:42:29
In reply to Re: Suicidal ideation question » shadows721, posted by daisym on June 14, 2004, at 0:56:13
Yes, I have gone though this many times. I actually started keeping a diary, so that I would start to see a trend of symptoms. In trauma work, there is a wave of feelings that will come. Internally there will be resistance expressed with suicidal ideation, compulsive behaviors (chemical, eating, sexual, or self mulilation), ambivilence, or keeping really busy. Feelings can range with waves of mania, sadness, despair, terror, anger to rage. It's all just a part of the process of remembering. The main thing to do is nurture yourself, utilize therapeutic expression of emotions, social support, and journal to provide safety through the work.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.