![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by WorryGirl on May 12, 2003, at 10:01:06
I'm at a loss to describe exactly how I feel, but I'm starting to think that aside from my best friend (who lives a few hours away), the only people who seem compelled to have any kind of friendship with me don't make me feel very good about myself.
Seriously, am I naive to expect that friendship would entail lifting each other up, and complimenting each other occasionally and sharing thoughts without judgment? Disagreement is fine, but negative judgment bothers me.
The few friends I have made around here (if you want to call them that), make me feel so badly about myself after my interactions with them.
One of these friends thought I was wonderful for the first month or so, but now she makes comments that undermine me whenever we're around other people, such as other neighbors. In fact, when around them, she seems to make it appear that she is not overly close or fond of me. Things that she acted like were perfectly normal feelings or things that she had experienced also, turn into something completely different when we're around others. She cleverly manages to snub and insult me with comments alluding to what we had shared on the phone a few days earlier. I can also sense that she has made negative comments about me to neighbors, who I have gradually and carefully been trying to get to know (and not self-disclosing too much like I tend to do). But we all got together recently and none of them were as receptive as they had been previously. It seemed obvious that she has relayed things to them that portrayed me in a negative light.
This is exactly why I have social phobia.
This same person will probably call me one of these days and be as nice as can be and then proceed to share more of her bad thoughts about me to the neighbors again. Why do I let this happen? How can I nicely let her know that although I value friendship, she is not making me feel very valued? To be honest, it almost seems as though she considers our friendship a charity frienship. Ouch!Where are the nice people and why don't they want to be friends with me?
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on May 12, 2003, at 10:25:13
In reply to Toxic Friendships, posted by WorryGirl on May 12, 2003, at 10:01:06
> One of these friends thought I was wonderful for the first month or so, but now she makes comments that undermine me whenever we're around other people, such as other neighbors.
---------------The world's a confusing social power struggle to me, and I don't know what the prize is. I'm behind your definition of friendship, though. It should be a simple, positive thing. You shouldn't be made to feel bad.
My response to everything is to try and be a genuninely good person to everyone, regardless of how they treat me. It an unassailable position to adapt, makes me feel good, and hopefully helps out everyone else too. Other people will say that you're being used, or taken advantage of, because they're afraid of losing points in the social power struggle by appearing weak. Don't listen to them.
I'd say that you should let your friend know (in a sincere and non-accusatory way (a real art)), that some of the things she does hurt your feelings. If she's a friend of any value, she'll at least be more discreet about it. Be gracious and nice with her, at any rate. It doesn't cost you anything, and may serve as an example for her later in life. People may think you're a doormat now, but time will prove you right (everyone's too focused on looking good in a given moment, and it's short-sighted, imho). Being a good person gives you strong and easy conviction in action.
Posted by mmcasey on May 12, 2003, at 11:15:56
In reply to Re: Toxic Friendships » WorryGirl, posted by Eddie Sylvano on May 12, 2003, at 10:25:13
I agree with Eddie. It seems like a good idea to just tell her how you feel in a straightforward but gentle way so as not to piss her off. I know that's easier said than done, but I have come to realize that honesty is the best policy in most cases. I think that respect in a friendship is one of the most important things, and if she respects you, then she should try to accomodate your feelings and change her behavior.
Posted by WorryGirl on May 12, 2003, at 12:28:51
In reply to Re: Toxic Friendships » WorryGirl, posted by Eddie Sylvano on May 12, 2003, at 10:25:13
> > One of these friends thought I was wonderful for the first month or so, but now she makes comments that undermine me whenever we're around other people, such as other neighbors.
> ---------------
>
> The world's a confusing social power struggle to me, and I don't know what the prize is. I'm behind your definition of friendship, though. It should be a simple, positive thing. You shouldn't be made to feel bad.
> My response to everything is to try and be a genuninely good person to everyone, regardless of how they treat me. It an unassailable position to adapt, makes me feel good, and hopefully helps out everyone else too. Other people will say that you're being used, or taken advantage of, because they're afraid of losing points in the social power struggle by appearing weak. Don't listen to them.
> I'd say that you should let your friend know (in a sincere and non-accusatory way (a real art)), that some of the things she does hurt your feelings. If she's a friend of any value, she'll at least be more discreet about it. Be gracious and nice with her, at any rate. It doesn't cost you anything, and may serve as an example for her later in life. People may think you're a doormat now, but time will prove you right (everyone's too focused on looking good in a given moment, and it's short-sighted, imho). Being a good person gives you strong and easy conviction in action.
Thanks for the advice Eddie. I do usually manage to always be kind to everyone I come in contact with. Occasionally someone will bring me to the point of anger. But ultimately you are right. If I am genuinely a good person maybe eventually some people will realize that any bad info they heard may not be accurate. Or my sort of fair weather friend may realize that she may have had wrong perceptions of me and change her tune. The interesting thing is that I have never intentionally done anything to her that was remotely unkind. I have never tried to upstage her, put her down, or betray her confidences. While it is true that I have given her an earful of my worries (she's not a martyr and always finds a way to hang up after 10-15 minutes of this), I have always been available as a listening ear to her. But it's like she doesn't want to share her problems with me. And I know she has several, which matters not in the least to me. Doesn't everybody have some kind of problem? But most people probably don't like sharing them with others, not even friends.This particular friend has been driving me crazy because she is starting to become more influential in the neighborhood. Speaking of the social power that seems to drive some people, she is definitely driven by it. Because she comes across as much more secure, outgoing and witty than me, she has much more credibility. The worst case scenario for me is that I may end up with no friends in the neighborhood. Hopefully, it won't come to that.
What has been bugging me is WHY has she changed her tune towards me? I briefly thought of jealousy (that all too common problem among people of all ages and income levels, which almost goes hand in hand with power).
But for everything that I have going for me that she doesn't, she has at least twice as much going for her. The only real thing that she is struggling with that we aren't is financial issues. They live frugally, but comfortably because she is so skilled at running an efficient household. She is a better housekeeper/cook than me. She is more socially gifted and is very smart (she earned a master's degree while I continue to slowly work on my BS degree when I can). She is equally physically attractive, and most importantly, she has a large support group of family and friends who are available within short notice to watch her child. She has excellent taste and is talented artistically. To my knowledge, she takes no medication of any kind and doesn't see a therapist.
So surely, if it is any kind of jealousy, it would have to be finance related. If I had everything she had, though, I wouldn't be jealous of anyone.
Unfortunately I don't think it's that simple. What I'm terribly afraid of is that she just plain considers herself superior to me in just about every way and enjoys feeling that way and letting me subtly (and sometimes not so subtly) know that she finds me to be inferior.
I'm one of those people who sometimes makes an excellent first impression, but then it all goes downhill.I'm really sorry for rambling like this. It's just that every time I think I'm making a bit of progress, I fall two steps back.
Take care, and thanks for being there. I do consider you as one of my PB friends!
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on May 12, 2003, at 12:44:35
In reply to Re: Toxic Friendships » Eddie Sylvano, posted by WorryGirl on May 12, 2003, at 12:28:51
> Unfortunately I don't think it's that simple. What I'm terribly afraid of is that she just plain considers herself superior to me in just about every way and enjoys feeling that way and letting me subtly (and sometimes not so subtly) know that she finds me to be inferior.
-------------Who knows why people act they way they do sometimes. It's always the worst when behavior is inconsistant, like your friend. Do you like me or no? Pick a side. It sounds like she's working a social angle for something, but who knows what?
My soon-to-be mother-in-law (lotta hyphens there) has been the type of person who does everything in her power to gain social favor, while being really hurtful to the people around her in private. It worked well for her for many years, and made her look good at the expense of others. Last year, however, her husband finally got up the will to leave her, her daughter realized that she doesn't want to talk to her anymore (her mom only makes her feel bad about herself), and it's all coming back to her. She has no one, and no one can really feel sorry for her. Next time you get snubbed by someone like that, know that their victory is short gained, and they're running at a social debt that will come back to get them (it just may take a while).> I'm really sorry for rambling like this. It's just that every time I think I'm making a bit of progress, I fall two steps back.
-------------Sounds like you're on the right track to me. Hope you find some friends that appreciate you :)
_joe
Posted by bookgurl99 on May 12, 2003, at 17:29:20
In reply to Toxic Friendships, posted by WorryGirl on May 12, 2003, at 10:01:06
I understand how you feel about wanting to have 'true' friends. They are so hard to come by.
I have also had problems with developing a bad reputation (partly due to a negative breakup in the small lesbian community), and having people who I _could_ have befriended misjudge me as a result. It really hurts.
But you can't keep beating your fists against a wall if certain people aren't true friends. To be honest, I would just blow this woman off.
In time, hopefully your neighbors will realize that you're a nice lady.
I find, especially in small towns, some people take a dx of something as simple as anxiety as proof that you're a nut. I take it as proof that you're not in denial like so many others.
Good luck.
Posted by WorryGirl on May 12, 2003, at 18:48:13
In reply to Re: Toxic Friendships » WorryGirl, posted by bookgurl99 on May 12, 2003, at 17:29:20
> I understand how you feel about wanting to have 'true' friends. They are so hard to come by.
>
> I have also had problems with developing a bad reputation (partly due to a negative breakup in the small lesbian community), and having people who I _could_ have befriended misjudge me as a result. It really hurts.
>Hi BookGurl,
Thanks for your kind words. I can imagine how uncomfortable it might be in a tightly knit community such as yours, being involved in a break-up. I'm sorry that it was so unpleasant. Did you finally leave your community? It probably is very similar to a small town in many ways.
Where I live people either are aloof and/or snooty, or if they do get to know you it feels like they're checking out every nook and cranny to see what's wrong, to make sure you really qualify for their friendship. Now I know what houses must feel like if they had souls. Imagine being there for 100+ years, having had many wonderful families and memories living in you for so long; they even lovingly would come back and visit you later. But as time goes by and things start to crumble, the picky potential buyers don't notice the wonderful parts, so much as the crooked floors and faulty windows, etc. But then someone comes along who loves you like you are and knows that with a few improvements you will be more appreciated and loved than ever. Kind of corny analogy, but that's how I feel! Like I'm waiting for someone to realize that underneath my faults lies a pretty neat person.> But you can't keep beating your fists against a wall if certain people aren't true friends. To be honest, I would just blow this woman off.
>I have thought about doing this, but am afraid that if I do so, everyone else might decide I really am wacko. If she wasn't seemingly friends with almost every other woman in the neighborhood I am sad to say that I would feel some satisfaction in blowing her off after how she's made me feel. But I have enough co-dependency traits that when she becomes charming and sweet I fall for it and think that she really does like me for who I am after all. I feel like such a fool. But she does have many good qualities and I am trying to watch her social success and hopefully I can learn a thing or two from her. One thing she does that I have a hard time with is her ability to be a chameleon (sp?). She is one of those people who seem to be able to relate to any type of people and that is a gift. But in my humble opinion, she abuses her gift by making someone feel inferior the next moment, or day, whatever.
> In time, hopefully your neighbors will realize that you're a nice lady.
>
I hope so. Probably by now I am known as the strange but nice wimpy lady in the stone house. Could be worse I guess!> I find, especially in small towns, some people take a dx of something as simple as anxiety as proof that you're a nut. I take it as proof that you're not in denial like so many others.
>I like the way you think. I would 10x rather be around someone who is anxious or nutty but honest and real. I am so honest sometimes that people think I'm a phony. I think that I've been honest about things that no one else would admit to and that really makes me seem bizarre. I used to lie a lot as a child and got in a lot of trouble. When I grew up I began to realize the freedom that honesty gives you. Unfortunately, as I get older, people don't always appreciate that honesty.
> Good luck.
Thanks and take care :)
Posted by noa on May 14, 2003, at 19:51:56
In reply to Re: Toxic Friendships » WorryGirl, posted by bookgurl99 on May 12, 2003, at 17:29:20
Worrygirl, now that I've reread your post and the replies, I will reply.
First, it sounds like a terribly uncomfortable situation!
And, your wish for friendship to be supportive and uplifting is a good wish. If this person is not very positive, maybe you should not have such an intense friendship with her, and continue to meet people whom you feel have more positive energy.
Is it possible that the friendship got too intimate too fast? You describe disclosing your worries to her, etc., and that she also disclosed to you. Maybe she feels too exposed? Maybe if she disclosed financial issues, her husband found out about it and is really uncomfortable with you and your husband knowing about their finances? Maybe it just got too revealing to quickly and that can be scary. Or too interdependent too quickly?
Who knows?
But obviously, you would wish she would handle the discomfort (whatever the reason) in a better way, I am sure.
Whta do you think about the idea of talking to her, like something along the lines of: "hey, you know, I've been sensing that there is a little tension between us lately. You, know, we hit it off really well really fast, and maybe a little too fast, and maybe we should back up a bit? I like you, and still would like to be friends with you, but do you think we both might feel more comfortable if we both stepped back a bit? You know, take the pressure off? Because I'd like to preserve our friendship,and I'd hate for this tension build and get in the way of being great neighbors."
I dunno. Just an idea. And of course, it's all armchair coaching hehe, ie, much easier to think about YOU doing than ME!!
Also, since you seem to be someone who worries, maybe you can hold off on concluding *why* things are going the way they are. I know that I have overinterpreted things sometimes, and it can help to wait and see before acting on conclusion that might be skewed by anxiety.
Which is not to say you are imagining this problem! I hope the previous paragraph doesn't seem to imply that.
I just know that it is often hard to guess what another person's motivation really is.
I think you should meet different people, keep it "light" for a while before getting too close, and get a sense of who has positive energy that you want to get to know better.
Posted by WorryGirl on May 14, 2003, at 20:14:21
In reply to Re: Toxic Friendships, posted by noa on May 14, 2003, at 19:51:56
> Worrygirl, now that I've reread your post and the replies, I will reply.
>
> First, it sounds like a terribly uncomfortable situation!
>
> And, your wish for friendship to be supportive and uplifting is a good wish. If this person is not very positive, maybe you should not have such an intense friendship with her, and continue to meet people whom you feel have more positive energy.
>
I think she may be extremely moody. I've called her and been given the cold shoulder but other times she seems very happy to talk. Me, if I'm busy, and someone calls, will say, "I'm dying to talk to you, but I've got a ton of stuff going on. Let me call you back when it all calms down". She makes me feel intrusive when I call by either cutting me off, not sounding friendly, or not returning my answering machine message sometimes. When she is positive, she is wonderfully sweet.> Is it possible that the friendship got too intimate too fast? You describe disclosing your worries to her, etc., and that she also disclosed to you. Maybe she feels too exposed? Maybe if she disclosed financial issues, her husband found out about it and is really uncomfortable with you and your husband knowing about their finances? Maybe it just got too revealing to quickly and that can be scary. Or too interdependent too quickly?
>I think you're right. As hard as I try, I fall into this pattern. Why do some people, such as myself, do this? Why are we so anxious to get close too fast. It always backfires, but I find myself repeating this pattern.
> Who knows?
>
> But obviously, you would wish she would handle the discomfort (whatever the reason) in a better way, I am sure.
>
> Whta do you think about the idea of talking to her, like something along the lines of: "hey, you know, I've been sensing that there is a little tension between us lately. You, know, we hit it off really well really fast, and maybe a little too fast, and maybe we should back up a bit? I like you, and still would like to be friends with you, but do you think we both might feel more comfortable if we both stepped back a bit? You know, take the pressure off? Because I'd like to preserve our friendship,and I'd hate for this tension build and get in the way of being great neighbors."
>
I like that. If a situation comes up that's appropriate, I will use those words. I think, though, that SHE has already made the decision to back off. Nonetheless, if she knows I have been feeling the same way maybe it will take some pressure off her. Those words of advice have given me a big sigh of relief! A-a-ahhhh> I dunno. Just an idea. And of course, it's all armchair coaching hehe, ie, much easier to think about YOU doing than ME!!
>
> Also, since you seem to be someone who worries, maybe you can hold off on concluding *why* things are going the way they are. I know that I have overinterpreted things sometimes, and it can help to wait and see before acting on conclusion that might be skewed by anxiety.
>
> Which is not to say you are imagining this problem! I hope the previous paragraph doesn't seem to imply that.
>
No, sometimes I do overanalyze situations that have no real negativity in them, just my perceived worries. But this case isn't entirely in my head. How she really feels about me, though, only she knows. Since I have always gone out of my way to be nice, I don't think she could have any serious issues with me.> I just know that it is often hard to guess what another person's motivation really is.
>
> I think you should meet different people, keep it "light" for a while before getting too close, and get a sense of who has positive energy that you want to get to know better.I'm working on it. Thank you, Noa. I have met one or two "potentials" and am trying to be relaxed and unhurried concerning a possible friendship with them.
Posted by leeran on May 14, 2003, at 21:31:30
In reply to Toxic Friendships, posted by WorryGirl on May 12, 2003, at 10:01:06
WorryGirl –
I was thinking about your post while I had lunch. I work at home, so it's usually myself, the dog and MSNBC or Fox News (and whatever is currently on my mind).
I mentally revisited the neighborhoods where I've lived over the years (as an adult) and realized I've never formed any close neighborhood relationships. Maybe because of my mother's warnings about not getting too close to neighbors (because if there's a falling out you still have to live nearby). Her “what if” attitude has trickled down the genetic gutter pipe in more ways than one.
Actually, she can’t take the blame for this. The likelier contributing factors are (a) I’m very shy in person (b) I usually feel like a social misfit in most situations (c) the neighborhoods where I've lived haven't been all that neighborly (or at least not with me - LOL!).
This is a tough situation. It sounds like this woman may be employing some rather Machiavellian tactics and in those circumstances, the players are often backed into a 'd**ned if you do - d**ned if you don't' corner."
When I read this line:
"She makes comments that undermine me whenever we're around other people"
I was reminded of my first husband who became adept at maneuver, knowing full well that I would never cause a scene in front of other people. And although he could be a stinker, he was anything but Machiavellian. His actions were probably based on his own self-esteem issues. Despite the fact that he was (and still is) very handsome (and never failed to remind me of that fact), he struggled in other areas.
Regardless of his looks, he never came off as very warm and people usually picked up on that vacancy in his personality soon after meeting him. If this is the case with your neighbor, it may be common knowledge around the 'hood. And understanding someone’s “motive” makes it easier for me to tolerate their behavior (note: if she wasn’t a neighbor and you didn’t have to encounter her from time to time I would drop her like a hot skillet – but considering real estate is involved, a more amicable solution seems ).I'm getting the impression that you're the newer/newest neighbor? With any luck, people are more aware of her methods than you might realize. They may be a bit afraid of her because they've been subject to this treatment as well. Other neighbors may eventually disclose this voluntarily (once they realize it won't get back to her), but you’ll definitely have to tread carefully as the new "gal on the block" until someone else mentions it first. Even then, I would just take it as positive confirmation (i.e. with no more than an “oh, really?” response) and try not to comment on anything directly regarding her. After all, you never know how news travels through the neighborhood grapevine (my trust issues are hanging out all over this post!).
I do believe that most people are pretty observant and, moreover, good at heart, so once the other neighbors have gotten to know the real you (versus whoever she might have unfairly portrayed you as) you might find a warming trend coming in your direction!
There's a girl in my son's class who is very "popular." There are countless stories in circulation (even among other parents) of the incredible control she exerts over her peer group. Why are so many kids willing to offer up this kind of loyalty to one individual? The only reasonable explanation I've come up with is fear. Fear of alienation? Retaliation? It must be all of the above and then some. Whatever it is, she's managed to orchestrate the social demise of many a young girl over the four years since we've lived here.
People like this both fascinate and repulse me, regardless of age (as long as they’re within observation distance – not interaction distance!). I had an out-of-state manager who was involved in the end of my seventeen-year career with the same organization. Involved, yet seemingly innocent, all the while turning people against one another behind the scenes. My business partner and I ended up quitting because staying would have been just as difficult. It was a lose-lose situation and every bit as wrenching as either one of my divorces. We later found out that many of the ill feelings that existed between departments were perpetuated by this one fellow who was so adept at playing one side against the other. You've got to hand it to people like this. It can't be easy staying on top of all the alliances and machinations necessary to keep everyone pitted against one another (without sullying your own name in the process).
These are tough situations and I feel for you WorryGirl. Life is dicey enough without having to deal with chessboard neighborhood maneuvers! You sound very genuine and open. These qualities, that come so natural for you, can be threatening to people who thrive on dissension. An internet friend of mine always used to show up on the message board we both frequented whenever heated discussions took place. At least she was honest when she described herself as a "controversy junkie."
As you mentioned, this neighbor may be jealous of the difference in your financial situation. Variances in financial prosperity can eat away at some people. In situations like this I always try to hold my cards close. The less she knows about your personal dossier, the less she can twist things (either in her own mind or to other people).
I had a former friend whose modus operandi was badgering “friends” for personal information - i.e. household income, marital discord, etc. I eventually stopped taking her calls after one particular lunch (I may have posted about this before) when she successfully pried the news of my ex-husband's infidelity out of me. When she laughed in my face after this painful admission I just checked her off my list. This was before “toxic” was a catch-phrase, but when I read your post title I immediately thought of her.
Luckily, she wasn't a neighbor and I only saw her one other time (while she was driving slowly past our new house on a dead-end street about thirty miles from where she lived). She pulled in the driveway and admitted she wanted to see what our house looked like. I’m ashamed to say that I actually orchestrated the situation by inviting her husband, who was our insurance man, over (professionally) to upgrade our policies after we moved. I knew her well enough to know that she would hound her husband for a complete description of our house. Very petty of me. It was a great coincidence, being outside when she drove by. And although there was a small measure of momentary satisfaction, I ended up being more disgusted by my own need to twist the knife of revenge. By that time my marriage had become a monument to materialism and my unhappiness with myself was something I pushed away with new cars, jewelry, vacations, etc.
Sorry to divert in so many ways in this post – but I guess that brings up a good point. Sometimes, people who look the happiest and appear to have the most, are really the unhappiest of all. Anyone who did a “drive by” of my house/life back then would have been greatly deceived by the false front I managed to carefully construct over the years.
<<Sigh>>
WorryGirl, I'm hoping this neighbor of yours is more like my ex-husband and not like the freshman girl who reigns over her nail-biting masses (in other words, a stinker versus a tyrant). I think people will tolerate an Eddie Haskell type, but they fear Little Chucky. THE GOOD THING IS, I THINK THE CHUCKYS ARE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN! I've not met many in my lifetime. My former boss and this teenage girl are the only two that even come to mind! Even this rather toxic "friend" of mine was rather harmless simply because she was so obvious (her own husband was constantly apologizing for her rude behavior).
Hang in there, WorryGirl. It's hard to imagine that there aren't other neighbors that this woman has alienated - i.e. people with whom you may end up having more in common. As I get older I find myself in agreement with the cynic, Diogenes, who said “it is better to have one friend of great value than many friends who are good for nothing.”
Lee
Posted by WorryGirl on May 15, 2003, at 11:16:10
In reply to Re: Toxic Friendships (loooonnnnnggg) » WorryGirl, posted by leeran on May 14, 2003, at 21:31:30
> WorryGirl –
>
> I was thinking about your post while I had lunch. I work at home, so it's usually myself, the dog and MSNBC or Fox News (and whatever is currently on my mind).
>Lee, thanks for your lo-o-ong response. It is most appreciated and I was up late last night when I read it and was too tired to respond. BTW I love to knit to the MSNBC and stuff like that. It's the only way I keep up with world issues. I don't have the concentration to just sit there and watch them, but if I'm doing something else it works.
> I mentally revisited the neighborhoods where I've lived over the years (as an adult) and realized I've never formed any close neighborhood relationships. Maybe because of my mother's warnings about not getting too close to neighbors (because if there's a falling out you still have to live nearby). Her “what if” attitude has trickled down the genetic gutter pipe in more ways than one.
>
I have heard that warning before, but then would read in Good Housekeeping or some magazine like that about these neighbors who have been best friends for 20 years or whatever, and they have something so special, and their life is so happy and fulfilled, yadayadayada.
Realistically, I do think it's probably not good to get too close as your mother wisely mentioned. Because if you do have a falling out, then everyone else gets to hear about it and take sides (ugh!). My mom is good friends with her next door neighbor, though, and it works nicely. They are good friends, but not super close. A lot of it depends on the luck of the draw. I think I read in one of your posts that there is at least one soul mate for everyone. It's funny, because my husband and I are close, but not exactly in a soul mate way (not because of the male issue, either). Sometimes he just doesn't "get" me where a soul mate would. But I cherish him and am so grateful for the respect and love I have received from him.> Actually, she can’t take the blame for this. The likelier contributing factors are (a) I’m very shy in person (b) I usually feel like a social misfit in most situations (c) the neighborhoods where I've lived haven't been all that neighborly (or at least not with me - LOL!).
>
These people don't know what they're missing. But it sounds like you are OK with this; if not, neighbors continuously change, and maybe you or me could end up with a neighbor we connect with one of these days.> This is a tough situation. It sounds like this woman may be employing some rather Machiavellian tactics and in those circumstances, the players are often backed into a 'd**ned if you do - d**ned if you don't' corner."
>
I never would have pegged her as Machiavellian, because she is usually so-o-o nice, but after looking the word up in the dictionary, I realized that she is a bit cunning, if it is working something to her advantage. I don't want to play this game; hopefully she will realize this and either leave me alone or be nicer.> When I read this line:
>
> "She makes comments that undermine me whenever we're around other people"
>I also realized after I typed that, that she has also undermined me when it is just her talking to me, too. I probably felt it more intensely when around the others, because I didn't want them picking up on her negative vibes towards me.
> I was reminded of my first husband who became adept at maneuver, knowing full well that I would never cause a scene in front of other people. And although he could be a stinker, he was anything but Machiavellian. His actions were probably based on his own self-esteem issues. Despite the fact that he was (and still is) very handsome (and never failed to remind me of that fact), he struggled in other areas.
Oh, to be married to one of those physically godlike men! I know there are some super nice hunks out there, but I've heard stories about how difficult some can be to live with. I guess the same is true for some stunning women.
> Regardless of his looks, he never came off as very warm and people usually picked up on that vacancy in his personality soon after meeting him. If this is the case with your neighbor, it may be common knowledge around the 'hood. And understanding someone’s “motive” makes it easier for me to tolerate their behavior (note: if she wasn’t a neighbor and you didn’t have to encounter her from time to time I would drop her like a hot skillet – but considering real estate is involved, a more amicable solution seems ).
>I think that she, like me, is just starting to get to know people in this neighborhood, and was sort of a recluse after having a child for a while. She had a network of friends not from the neighborhood and decided to get closer to the people in this neighborhood. Everyone seems to like her so far. What they really think about her I don't know and am not going to ask. I don't feel comfortable talking about other people/friends when they're not around.
> I'm getting the impression that you're the newer/newest neighbor? With any luck, people are more aware of her methods than you might realize. They may be a bit afraid of her because they've been subject to this treatment as well. Other neighbors may eventually disclose this voluntarily (once they realize it won't get back to her), but you’ll definitely have to tread carefully as the new "gal on the block" until someone else mentions it first. Even then, I would just take it as positive confirmation (i.e. with no more than an “oh, really?” response) and try not to comment on anything directly regarding her. After all, you never know how news travels through the neighborhood grapevine (my trust issues are hanging out all over this post!).
>
I'm fairly new, but so is she. She got on the homeowner's board and has gotten to know almost everyone. I have no interest in the board (it would, in fact, be a nightmare for me). That's my own fault, I know.
After your advice and the others' advice on this board I honestly feel much better about the situation and I thank you all so much for your words - they really help :)> I do believe that most people are pretty observant and, moreover, good at heart, so once the other neighbors have gotten to know the real you (versus whoever she might have unfairly portrayed you as) you might find a warming trend coming in your direction!
>I hope so, too.
> There's a girl in my son's class who is very "popular." There are countless stories in circulation (even among other parents) of the incredible control she exerts over her peer group. Why are so many kids willing to offer up this kind of loyalty to one individual? The only reasonable explanation I've come up with is fear. Fear of alienation? Retaliation? It must be all of the above and then some. Whatever it is, she's managed to orchestrate the social demise of many a young girl over the four years since we've lived here.
>
How do those powerfully popular kids do it? Do their parents give them the incredible self esteem, or the ability to intimidate? Or is it something they were born with and has nothing to do with how they were raised or their parents' personality?> People like this both fascinate and repulse me, regardless of age (as long as they’re within observation distance – not interaction distance!). I had an out-of-state manager who was involved in the end of my seventeen-year career with the same organization. Involved, yet seemingly innocent, all the while turning people against one another behind the scenes. My business partner and I ended up quitting because staying would have been just as difficult. It was a lose-lose situation and every bit as wrenching as either one of my divorces. We later found out that many of the ill feelings that existed between departments were perpetuated by this one fellow who was so adept at playing one side against the other. You've got to hand it to people like this. It can't be easy staying on top of all the alliances and machinations necessary to keep everyone pitted against one another (without sullying your own name in the process).
>I'm fascinated and repulsed, too. I'm the type who would enjoy reading books on the subject just to get more insight, but it wouldn't change who I was in the slightest. Somehow I feel that the more I understand why certain people act the way they do, it makes me feel less badly, when their bad behavior is aimed at me.
> These are tough situations and I feel for you WorryGirl. Life is dicey enough without having to deal with chessboard neighborhood maneuvers! You sound very genuine and open. These qualities, that come so natural for you, can be threatening to people who thrive on dissension. An internet friend of mine always used to show up on the message board we both frequented whenever heated discussions took place. At least she was honest when she described herself as a "controversy junkie."
>
> As you mentioned, this neighbor may be jealous of the difference in your financial situation. Variances in financial prosperity can eat away at some people. In situations like this I always try to hold my cards close. The less she knows about your personal dossier, the less she can twist things (either in her own mind or to other people).
>
I think there is some truth to this. We have been doing renovating, while they struggle. It's hard to hide the stuff we've been working on when she comes over and there it is. I wonder if she isn't a bit resentful and thinks she would have done things differently. Her taste is superb, and maybe she gets satisfaction out of thinking, "If I had the money my place would look so much better". Our place is customized for us, not our neighbors. I would love for their financial situation to improve, and I know it will. They just need to be patient - they are both very intelligent people who will go far. They are also several years younger, and as my husband said, when he was their age, he was struggling, too. Sorry to ramble!> I had a former friend whose modus operandi was badgering “friends” for personal information - i.e. household income, marital discord, etc. I eventually stopped taking her calls after one particular lunch (I may have posted about this before) when she successfully pried the news of my ex-husband's infidelity out of me. When she laughed in my face after this painful admission I just checked her off my list. This was before “toxic” was a catch-phrase, but when I read your post title I immediately thought of her.
>What an insensitive (toxic) person! You must have appeared as if you had it all to her and she couldn't wait for you to be knocked off your pedestal. You were smart to check her off your list.
> Luckily, she wasn't a neighbor and I only saw her one other time (while she was driving slowly past our new house on a dead-end street about thirty miles from where she lived). She pulled in the driveway and admitted she wanted to see what our house looked like. I’m ashamed to say that I actually orchestrated the situation by inviting her husband, who was our insurance man, over (professionally) to upgrade our policies after we moved. I knew her well enough to know that she would hound her husband for a complete description of our house. Very petty of me. It was a great coincidence, being outside when she drove by. And although there was a small measure of momentary satisfaction, I ended up being more disgusted by my own need to twist the knife of revenge. By that time my marriage had become a monument to materialism and my unhappiness with myself was something I pushed away with new cars, jewelry, vacations, etc.
>Don't feel badly for your monument to materialism at the time. We all find ways to feel fulfilled, but when we are there, and the fulfmillment is real, I'm sure there will be no mistaking it for anything else.
I have to comment - how strange that she drove 30 miles out of her way to see your house. People sure do some irrational things, don't they? The only time I would have driven 30 miles out of the way is when I was much younger, if I had a huge crush on someone and was too shy to approach them. If they had caught me I would be mortified.
I almost wonder if this woman had a crush on your husband? And that made you intriguing to her, because you had been married to this man. I'll admit when I had a crush on a boy in high school, I was always a bit intrigued by his girlfriend, if he had one, figuring out her appeals.
> Sorry to divert in so many ways in this post – but I guess that brings up a good point. Sometimes, people who look the happiest and appear to have the most, are really the unhappiest of all. Anyone who did a “drive by” of my house/life back then would have been greatly deceived by the false front I managed to carefully construct over the years.
>You're absolutely right. You can't judge a book by it's cover, or even the first few pages for that matter.
> <<Sigh>>
>
> WorryGirl, I'm hoping this neighbor of yours is more like my ex-husband and not like the freshman girl who reigns over her nail-biting masses (in other words, a stinker versus a tyrant). I think people will tolerate an Eddie Haskell type, but they fear Little Chucky. THE GOOD THING IS, I THINK THE CHUCKYS ARE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN! I've not met many in my lifetime. My former boss and this teenage girl are the only two that even come to mind! Even this rather toxic "friend" of mine was rather harmless simply because she was so obvious (her own husband was constantly apologizing for her rude behavior).
>I hope she's not a Chucky, too. I'm going to think positively and say probably not.
> Hang in there, WorryGirl. It's hard to imagine that there aren't other neighbors that this woman has alienated - i.e. people with whom you may end up having more in common. As I get older I find myself in agreement with the cynic, Diogenes, who said “it is better to have one friend of great value than many friends who are good for nothing.”
>I agree and I have that one friend even if she's miles away. I hope I haven't sounded ungrateful, but it sure would be nice to have a closer close friend one of these days.
> Lee
>
>Thanks again!
Posted by leeran on May 15, 2003, at 11:23:11
In reply to Re: Toxic Friendships (loooonnnnnggg) » leeran, posted by WorryGirl on May 15, 2003, at 11:16:10
"What they really think about her I don't know and am not going to ask. I don't feel comfortable talking about other people/friends when they're not around."
Oh no, I didn't suggest that! In fact, I think I mentioned somewhere else that it would have to be a case of someone else bringing it up . . . and even then, I would just have an "Oh really?" type of attitude. In other words, I would file the information in my brain and know that I wasn't the "only one" who had experienced this kind of treatment from this one woman.
Posted by WorryGirl on May 15, 2003, at 11:38:21
In reply to Re: Toxic Friendships (loooonnnnnggg) » WorryGirl, posted by leeran on May 15, 2003, at 11:23:11
> "What they really think about her I don't know and am not going to ask. I don't feel comfortable talking about other people/friends when they're not around."
>
> Oh no, I didn't suggest that! In fact, I think I mentioned somewhere else that it would have to be a case of someone else bringing it up . . . and even then, I would just have an "Oh really?" type of attitude. In other words, I would file the information in my brain and know that I wasn't the "only one" who had experienced this kind of treatment from this one woman.
>
>
>
Lee,
I did read that part of your post, so I knew you wouldn't suggest that. I was just kind of phrasing that on my own, saying that I don't know for sure what the neighbors think of her, and in fact, would do as you say, and have an "Oh, really?" attitude if her name was brought up about anything. I just wanted you to know that I don't go around talking about others if they're not there. It's happened to me so many times and I know how I feel, so I wouldn't do it to anyone else.Thanks
Posted by leeran on May 15, 2003, at 11:49:21
In reply to Re: Toxic Friendships (loooonnnnnggg) » leeran, posted by WorryGirl on May 15, 2003, at 11:16:10
"I almost wonder if this woman had a crush on your husband?"
Do you know, WorryGirl, this had never EVER occurred to me. But what an interesting concept . . . I do remember (this was all 15 - 20 years ago) her mentioning that her husband had told her many times that if he did things like my husband she would never stand for it (i.e. go on two-week long hunting trips, leave every weekend to go hunting, etc.).
Hmmmm, interesting thought.
Regarding riding by the house - I'm telling you - it was the weirdest thing. Our house was in a rather remote rural "subdivision" of houses on 1/4 to acre sized lots. She didn't work and given her curious nature about us, I guess it was no big deal for her to take a Saturday afternoon drive without the kids or her husband (I doubt he would have agreed to accompany her). By this time she had a very large Mercedes (and very large sunglasses), but she was still fully recognizable, and when she saw me out pruning - she gave a little wave and pulled in the drive. I even asked her (when she said she wanted to see our house after her husband had described it) if she wanted to come in (what else could I do - it was so awkward?) but she hastily declined.
Thx for that insight on the crush possibility. This is not to speak disparagingly about myself - just relaying the truth - but I actually remember one woman (on a cruise) having the nerve to ask me how I had ever snared my husband (given the fact that he was so handsome). The funny thing is, I had lost so much respect for him as a person (especially after his one-night stand) that I didn't even find him attractive anymore. It's all perception I suppose . . .
Regarding your husband and the soul-mate "thing" - it sounds like he adores you and loves everything about you. That type of acceptance and unconditional love that you have with him is, in my opinion, very "soul-mateish." If you have small children it isn't easy to feel that mind connection 24/7, I mean - there are so many other things going on!
Last night I watched Dr. Phil McGraw on Larry King Live. He made a point of saying that you should marry someone who is your best friend. Larry King - who has been married several times before - quickly commented that Dr. Phil's concept seemed to take the romance "out of it."
I have found that what I "need" the most in a spouse is a continuing companionship and an effortless rapport. I didn't even think about such concepts when I got married the first time at age twenty two! The second time, I was doing exactly what old Dr. Phil described - getting away from something versus going toward something.
Can you tell that here lately I think Dr. Phil is "the man?" I've only watched his show three times and saw him last night on Larry King Live, but I agree with everything he says. I've never been an Oprah disciple (or a disciple of any TV host, including Pat Sajak) but Dr. Phil may be the closest to "pedestal status" that I've ever allowed any celebrity type to be!
WorryGirl, you have many great gifts - including that of seeing many sides to a situation. Don't go wandering off, you hear?
Posted by leeran on May 15, 2003, at 11:51:34
In reply to Re: Toxic Friendships (loooonnnnnggg) » leeran, posted by WorryGirl on May 15, 2003, at 11:38:21
Whew, glad to hear that. I struggled with the wording of that section of the post and I was worried that I hadn't made myself very clear!
I'm quite paranoid (if you hadn't noticed already :-)
Posted by leeran on May 15, 2003, at 12:15:47
In reply to Re: Toxic Friendships (loooonnnnnggg) » leeran, posted by WorryGirl on May 15, 2003, at 11:16:10
"I agree and I have that one friend even if she's miles away. I hope I haven't sounded ungrateful, but it sure would be nice to have a closer close friend one of these days."
WorryGirl, I understand completely and I don't think you've sounded ungrateful in the least. Since moving 2000 miles from two of my closest friends and my parents I have often felt the same way.
It's rather ironic that a woman that used to "work for me" here on the West Coast lives eleven miles away. She and I had a very on/off relationship because of the competitive nature of our business. I really didn't think I would ever see her again when she was let go from the organization. Soon after she was let go I met my husband and had a two year relationship with him that ended up with us getting married and literally living in the same coastal "neighborhood." She had no idea that I had been spending a good portion of my time in her area for the two years since we had parted ways.
I never had any intentions of ever contacting her - but she ended up calling, by chance, our old offices soon after I moved here and I ended up calling her back. She was so shocked to know that her old adversary lived in the same area code.
We used to have some good phone conversations way back when, but there was always an undercurrent with us. However, over the four year time period that I've lived out here she and I have actually become rather good friends - plus, I do some writing for her business on the side (which is one of the few creative outlets I have).
There was a very real adjustment period for her, getting to know the "real" me (or the divorce-weary/cortisol-spent version of me versus the hard-*** version I always had to be with her), but now that all of the readjustment is behind us, she is of the most supportive and understanding people I know, especially regarding (my) depression.
This friendship is one that was totally unexpected and took some time to evolve, but it is important to me (and I think to her as well).
I may never feel as close to her as I do to these two close friends back in the Midwest, but who knows? Maybe in time . . . so much of all this has to do with history and trust.
WG, I hope you find a confidante in your area. It is important to have someone with whom you can let your hair down and not feel worried about how they're going to feel about you later.
It's been my experience that these things happen when you least suspect . . .
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on May 15, 2003, at 12:30:20
In reply to Re: Toxic Friendships (loooonnnnnggg) » WorryGirl, posted by leeran on May 15, 2003, at 11:49:21
> Can you tell that here lately I think Dr. Phil is "the man?" I've only watched his show three times and saw him last night on Larry King Live, but I agree with everything he says. I've never been an Oprah disciple (or a disciple of any TV host, including Pat Sajak) but Dr. Phil may be the closest to "pedestal status" that I've ever allowed any celebrity type to be!
-----------------Dr Phil gets to the point. Much faster than having an analyst talk you aimlessly through your life. It's a very simple tack, too... What's your problem? > What is *really* your problem? > Examine how your behavior is affecting the issue > modify your behavior and/or attitudes.
It's odd to me that it took Dr Phil to bring such a framework to public light. It's just common sense. He's just been the only one willing to challenge people on their claims, and address the issues that need attention. Maybe he's just better trained. idk. I think it's also fortunate for him that he's large, loud, and hard to ignore. Nobody would listen to Woody Allen saying the same things.
Posted by WorryGirl on May 15, 2003, at 12:36:12
In reply to Re: Toxic Friendships (loooonnnnnggg) » leeran, posted by Eddie Sylvano on May 15, 2003, at 12:30:20
Posted by leeran on May 15, 2003, at 12:37:34
In reply to Re: Toxic Friendships (loooonnnnnggg) » leeran, posted by Eddie Sylvano on May 15, 2003, at 12:30:20
"I think it's also fortunate for him that he's large, loud, and hard to ignore."
He has a "dad" way about him, or "dad-like" qualities.
I agree, it's all logical stuff, but "stuff" I couldn't grasp in my twenties or even thirties, late bloomer that I am.
Posted by WorryGirl on May 27, 2003, at 23:11:44
In reply to Re: Toxic Friendships (loooonnnnnggg) » WorryGirl, posted by leeran on May 15, 2003, at 11:49:21
> Regarding your husband and the soul-mate "thing" - it sounds like he adores you and loves everything about you. That type of acceptance and unconditional love that you have with him is, in my opinion, very "soul-mateish." If you have small children it isn't easy to feel that mind connection 24/7, I mean - there are so many other things going on!
Hi Lee,
Just had to respond to this. When I wrote that I was feeling a little misunderstood, but you are so right.
My husband is the most wonderful companion, father and husband, and how could he possibly be everything to me? NOBODY IS! Just like I can't be everything to anyone else either.Actually I had a boyfriend who seemed to be my soul mate and could read my mind so well he abused the privilege. So maybe it's better if our spouse is a bit clueless at times.
He definitely knows how to bring a smile to my face.
Thanks for reminding me of that!
This is the end of the thread.
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