![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 25 to 49 of 49. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on October 1, 2006, at 19:49:31
In reply to Re: Do you believe this? » alexandra_k, posted by muffled on October 1, 2006, at 11:13:39
> ...mebbe you throw T's off?
> But cerebrally knowing stuff, is alot diff. than having fears and emotions and stuff inside, messing with your life....
> mebbe you need to get down to real basics, insteada all the dx and science stuff. Just get down and dig in the actual basic shitpile of stuff that messes up your life.Yeah Muffled. I'm reading this because it is thesis related. I've decided not to go there in my thesis, anyway, but I think it is important to understand some of the views. Even if it is just historical interest. But then I do have a bit of a side interest in how it all relates to me...
Yeah, I think you are right that I throw my t's off. I don't mean to. But I guess I do. Sometimes I don't know what to say... And sometimes t's find silence hard. So I try and think of something to say and the only thing that seems manageable is to talk about my week for a bit... And to talk about what I've been reading and stuff. I guess... It is a defence, yeah.
The sh*tpile of stuff...
I'm not sure how to get to that. I'm not sure how to talk about that. I'm really not sure...
I forgot to ask my t for her email address last week. So... You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to try and write something for her. And I'll read it to her. I'll try and make it fairly short and managable. But I need to figure out how to connect with her.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 1, 2006, at 19:56:25
In reply to I have a different take on this., posted by madeline on October 1, 2006, at 16:24:47
> Imagine how wonderful that would be. We could choose to be free from all this that binds us.
> I hope more research is done on this theory. Because, boy, if I knew how to choose differently, you'd better believe I would.
I hear you. The word 'choice' is something that I find particularly hard... The notion of 'choice' is all tied up in the notion of blame and responsibility. It is also a point that theory doesn't exist in isolation... Usually something like a treatment plan follows from the theory. And... What is the treatment plan that follows from this theory?
Sounds like no treatment to me.
And yeah, that is a bit hard to take. I don't think that follows... May have followed in practice. May be that the people (if there are any) who believe symptoms are a 'choice' thought that the best treatment was to discharge the person and that was all. There are behaviourist views (I'm thinking of Spanos in particular, who wrote about treatment) where they called it 'strategic enactment'. They thought that the people who strategically enacted mental illness symptoms were indeed mentally ill. They were cautioning against a clinician overfocusing on the symptoms, however. The notion was that the symptoms are a strategic enactment, but the point that the person did strategically enact meant that they were indeed mentally ill. So they had a treatment plan. Though the treatment plan sounds rather... Worrying too... The notion is to punish (ignore) the symptoms and reward (praise with attention and the like) non symptom behaviour. Thus the patients behaviour would be shaped towards successive approximations of mental health, one can only suppose.
I have trouble with that view too...
Posted by alexandra_k on October 1, 2006, at 21:27:35
In reply to This was what I thought of, posted by ElaineM on October 1, 2006, at 17:15:49
Sometimes different fields lable the same things differently, and label distinct things with the same term. I have been struggling with the notion of 'dualism' as it is used in psychiatry / psychology. It might well be that sociologists use the term 'intentional paradigm' differently from how this guy (psychiatrist) is using it. In philosophy the closest I've come to the term 'intentional paradigm' is Dennett's notion of the 'intentional stance' which is a very different notion...
> I don't know, I interpret the "Intentional Paradigm" differently, though I usually refer to it as the Socio-Cultural explanation for mental illness.
Okay. So I have gotten interested in philosophy of psychiatry. I do analytic philosophy rather than continental and there really isn't much analytic philosophy of psychiatry out there... I found one very recent, very good book on the topic and he said that to the best of his knowledge his was the only book written on the topic. I was a little surprised so I had a hunt in the library and I found this "The Philosophical Defence of Psychiatry". He talks about the following paradigms in psychiatry:
- The medical paradigm
- The psychodynamic paradigm
- The behavioural paradigm (though he lumps cognitive in there too on occasion)
- The intentional paradigm
- The sociological paradigm
He says that one might be concerned that these paradigms all compete and thus psychiatry is in a hopelessly fragmented state. What he aims to do, however, is to show how they are all different theories (that can compliment or conflict) within the over-arching medical paradigm. For the most part he tries to show the different theories are consistent. He also acknowledges conflict, however, (in case falsification is important).This is what he says about the sociological paradigm:
'The sociological paradigm also contradicts the medical paradigm by assuming that there are no mental illnesses. Instead, disturbed behaviour is seen as the consequence of social forces.
> The social model maintains that mental illness is related clearly to social factors and there is no difficulty in predicting that one will follow from the other. For example, it has been shown in many studies that people who live in poor deprived geographical areas, who are unemployed and in unsatisfactory housing and have no special occupational skills, are likely to suffer higher rates of mental illness than the rest of the population (Tyrer and Steinberg, 1987, p. 77)
> Abnormal behaviour is seen as a symptom of a disturbed society, and for this reason the individual is not consideed ill - if anything is ill, it is society. This paradigm makes a number of assumptions. First, that abnormal behaviour can be the result of labelling. And second, that abnormal behaviour can be the result of averse social circumstances. In this way, the sociological paradigm seeks an explanation for the patient's behaviour outside that individual in a sick social group' p. 142
___________________________________
> is it possible that "game played" was only being used synonimously with "strategy enacted" or "technique implimented", or something like that.Yes, I think so. But I could be wrong... I think the notion of playing a game isn't meant to convey glee or anything. More a strategic enactment, yeah.
> Okay, I'm kinda scared cause this is the first "something other than emotional support" post I've made.((((Elaine))))
I know some people don't like these kinds of discussions... But I guess there are enough threads and posts for people to pick and choose what interests them. I get a lot out of them. Thanks for putting yourself 'out there' to talk to me :-) I appreciate it a whole heap.> I've probably asked more questions in my post than argued anything but oh well.
Thats cool :-) I wasn't arguing anything either. Just presenting a theory as this guy wrote about it. I'm not sure if his is the most perspicuous statement of it. He has a chapter on it, but I don't think I'm going to read it... I started doing a lot of work on the book, but he makes some fairly dodgey philosophical claims. I think that is why... Other analytic philosophers have fairly much ignored him... But I wanted to write about different 'paradigms' and different levels of explanation and how they relate to one another. I don't think I'll write on the particular paradigms he has chosen, however. They don't seem to be a part of mainstream theorising anymore, best I can figure. I think I should focus on genetic / environmental. Genetic / neurobiological. Cognitive / neuropsychological. I don't know because I don't know enough about this as yet... But I think I need to find the current productive scientific research programs and worry about how they relate to one another. There is a whole heap of decent philosophy on the nature / nurture controversy too. And a whole heap of stuff on how the biologists and social constructionists views can be synthesised for a more complete picture. I think I need to worry about them.
> Sorry if I'm confusing, the thinking part of my brain is rusty.
I don't think you are confusing, I think you are very clear. If I haven't engaged more with what you have said its because... I think you are speaking a lot of good sense.
> If I'm crossing theories here let me know because I focused on Sociology during my studies.
Thats hard for anyone looking at stuff that has been done within another discipline. I struggle with that too...
> But I'm trying to argue that I agree with the beliefs of everyone who've posted, but am saying that I'm not sure that the Int.P. exists to contradict those beliefs.
Yeah. Thats what Reznek is trying to argue. I'm not sure his arguments succeed but... I agree with the general spirit.
Posted by muffled on October 1, 2006, at 21:44:36
In reply to Re: Do you believe this? » muffled, posted by alexandra_k on October 1, 2006, at 19:49:31
> Yeah, I think you are right that I throw my t's off. I don't mean to. But I guess I do. Sometimes I don't know what to say... And sometimes t's find silence hard. So I try and think of something to say and the only thing that seems manageable is to talk about my week for a bit... And to talk about what I've been reading and stuff. I guess... It is a defence, yeah.
***Yeah. Proly you got good defenses to stay safe...
>
> The sh*tpile of stuff...
>
> I'm not sure how to get to that. I'm not sure how to talk about that. I'm really not sure...*** mebbe you could just start by talking bout stuff that triggers you. like people talking behind, and gossip, and exclusivity,and people saying you smart, things like that. Stuff that upsets you, and meebe that'll be a start in a corner of the pile, a place to begin and talk. Rather than talk bout inane type stuff. And its ok if you get upset, cuz THATS when you can process and learn stuff with your T. If you don't feel like talking bout something, then do it, lay it on the table and see what happens.
I find the best sessions usu. are a result of my behaving like an idiot sometime before......
>
> I forgot to ask my t for her email address last week. So... You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to try and write something for her. And I'll read it to her. I'll try and make it fairly short and managable. But I need to figure out how to connect with her.
>
***Mebbe don't worry so much her. mebbe just put some of the iside Alex on the paper, and see what she does with it.
Let Alex out, all her anger or pain or insecurities or confusion etc, whatever, let it come out.
See what happens.
Mebbe she a good T, mebbe not.
Good luck in it, whatever you manage.
Writing works well for me.
I write for myself, then mebbe edit slightly to give to my T. Often I don't edit at all.
Take care Alex, you a feisty little sweetie you are!!! :-)
Muffled
Posted by alexandra_k on October 1, 2006, at 23:53:27
In reply to Re: Do you believe this? » alexandra_k, posted by muffled on October 1, 2006, at 21:44:36
> *** mebbe you could just start by talking bout stuff that triggers you. like people talking behind, and gossip, and exclusivity,and people saying you smart, things like that.
Hmm...
<pout>
How did you get to know me so well...
<cross look>
Well... I guess I can't argue with that...
;-)> And its ok if you get upset, cuz THATS when you can process and learn stuff with your T. If you don't feel like talking bout something, then do it, lay it on the table and see what happens.
I'm a bit scared of showing her my emotions. Because sometimes... They are very strong. And people find that aversive. Hell... *I* find that aversive. I guess I shouldn't assume that she will find it aversive... But it is part of people generally and our culture in particular to find intense emotions to be aversive - isn't it? I'm not sure how she copes with the bits of emotions I've shown her. I remember one time she looked really very surprised... I was fine... Then I started raving about something for maybe 20 seconds and was kinda wound up with tears streaming... And then I freaked a bit and pulled myself together and was back to calm. All in the space of about 30 seconds.
I remember one of my t's... I was reading my file and she had wrote (on the basis of a single meeting) INTENSE and she underlined it about 4 times so strongly she almost ripped a whole in the page.
:-(
> ***Mebbe don't worry so much her. mebbe just put some of the iside Alex on the paper, and see what she does with it.
> Let Alex out, all her anger or pain or insecurities or confusion etc, whatever, let it come out.I... I don't know what to say...
Sometimes... I find it hard to talk. I wouldn't say anything at all... T's don't like that :-( So I've learned to talk. But I talk about... Stuff that doesn't matter. What matters? I don't know. How to get to what matters? I don't know. Sometimes I think something matters and then I say it and it doesn't seem to matter. I don't know. Confused...
> Take care Alex, you a feisty little sweetie you are!!! :-)
> MuffledThanks muffled.
((((muffled))))
I wish I wasn't feisty :-(
I'd rather be... Kind.
Take care.
Posted by muffled on October 2, 2006, at 11:18:22
In reply to Re: Do you believe this? » muffled, posted by alexandra_k on October 1, 2006, at 23:53:27
> Hmm...
> <pout>
> How did you get to know me so well...
> <cross look>
> Well... I guess I can't argue with that...
> ;-)***LOL
> I'm a bit scared of showing her my emotions. Because sometimes... They are very strong. And people find that aversive. Hell... *I* find that aversive. I guess I shouldn't assume that she will find it aversive... But it is part of people generally and our culture in particular to find intense emotions to be aversive - isn't it?***I think its part of our culture to hide emotions too much....
When they hidden they have more power, when they out in the light of day, they look different, not so mysterious.
Maybe you could say you want to understand your emtions better, and your frightened of the intensity of your emotions....> I'm not sure how she copes with the bits of emotions I've shown her. I remember one time she looked really very surprised... I was fine... Then I started raving about something for maybe 20 seconds and was kinda wound up with tears streaming... And then I freaked a bit and pulled myself together and was back to calm. All in the space of about 30 seconds.
***And did you guys talk about that? About the fact you felt she looked surprized? And maybe how that made you feel?
Or did you talk about why you HAD to suck yourself back in so quickly?
Those are little doorways that sometimes lead to other more important stuff....
S'all good...
>
> I remember one of my t's... I was reading my file and she had wrote (on the basis of a single meeting) INTENSE and she underlined it about 4 times so strongly she almost ripped a whole in the page.*******Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
Thats a bit of a peeve of mine. People making assumptions about people on very short notice.....REALLY pisses me off.....
I think you CAN be very intense. Sometimes our greatest gifts are our hardest challenges. I think your intensity is a gift, you just goto get a handle on it, cuz its a powerful gift. You could do lots of good things with your intensity...
> I... I don't know what to say...
>
> Sometimes... I find it hard to talk. I wouldn't say anything at all... T's don't like that :-( So I've learned to talk. But I talk about... Stuff that doesn't matter. What matters? I don't know. How to get to what matters? I don't know. Sometimes I think something matters and then I say it and it doesn't seem to matter. I don't know. Confused...***See thats the thing, sometimes its the most innocuous things that lead to the greatest insights.
Sometimes something I think is SO important....is nothing. Its a voyage of learning and growing.
I wonder if you are very adroitly sidestepping and redirecting conversation when it gets too close to where you don't want to go..... I dunno.
>
> > Take care Alex, you a feisty little sweetie you are!!! :-)
> > Muffled
>
> Thanks muffled.
> ((((muffled))))
> I wish I wasn't feisty :-(
> I'd rather be... Kind.
> Take care.
>
***But Alex you ARE kind. Its like I always trust that you are genuine in your caring, that no matter how involved in a debate etc you get, you will always come down to baseline and be very careful to apologise and make sure you have hurt noone. I have seen this again and again. I think feisty is GOOD. You are feisty AND very caring.
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by littleone on October 2, 2006, at 21:45:26
In reply to Re: Do you believe this? » muffled, posted by alexandra_k on October 1, 2006, at 23:53:27
Hi alex,
I think muffled had some very smart words for you. I found with my T that when we talk about head stuff (adult stuff) I feel pretty much no connection to him. Saying the words just puts up a wall between us. But if I can start talking about the feeling stuff or about about thoughts/feelings from my younger parts (I guess a lot of these would be deeper fear kind of stuff), then that's when I start to feel connected to him.
I know you've said before that you don't feel connected to your T. Do you think you're hiding behind the adult head stuff? Because if you are, then you need to remember that doing that will get you nowhere. That doing therapy is all about doing that which we find frightening. Facing your fears. And if you find it scary and threatening to show your inner self to someone, then that's exactly what you need to do. Show your T that side of you.
> I'm a bit scared of showing her my emotions. Because sometimes... They are very strong. And people find that aversive. Hell... *I* find that aversive.
If a T can't handle strong emotions, then they shouldn't be a T. It's not your role to protect your T. If you *are* doing that, then it might help to try to think of how you protected significant people in your past.
Alex, this is exactly what therapy is for. It is a safe place where you can show strong emotions.
A good starting point could be to talk to your T about why you're afraid of showing strong emotions. Let her tell you exactly what is okay or not okay. Let her help you face your fears.
> I remember one of my t's... I was reading my file and she had wrote (on the basis of a single meeting) INTENSE and she underlined it about 4 times so strongly she almost ripped a whole in the page.
For the record, I think being "intense" could easily be a strength. I think of people who have passionate ideas/concepts as intense. And I don't mean that as a put down. I think they need to be intense to drive the ideas forward. I think their energy comes out as mental intensity rather than physical exertion. Both types of release are good in my books.
> Sometimes... I find it hard to talk. I wouldn't say anything at all... T's don't like that :-( So I've learned to talk. But I talk about... Stuff that doesn't matter.
See, once again this is done to protect the T. That's not your job. If you want to go to therapy and sit in silence for an hour, then you can. It's your hour.
I think the idea of writing stuff for your T and then reading it out during your session is a really good idea. It could be a really good opportunity to talk about some of your inner stuff that you wouldn't normally talk about.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 3, 2006, at 5:02:12
In reply to Re: Do you believe this?, posted by muffled on October 2, 2006, at 11:18:22
> ***I think its part of our culture to hide emotions too much....
Well...
They found that people in American culture tend to be expressive.
In Japanese culture, however, there would be a brief flash of emotion and then it would be masked. The brief flash was enough to reliably signal to others what emotion the person was experiencing. It is typically thought that American culture is one of the most expressive cultures...There is stuff on game theory, though. About barganing ability and the like. Being able to conceal fear and the like so as to be a more effective bargainer. I wish I had more emotional control. I wish. I wish. I feel like... I wear my heart on my sleeve much of the time. I hate that. I feel... Naked. How much better to feel numb.
> ***And did you guys talk about that? About the fact you felt she looked surprized?
No. Surprise... Aversion... Slight... Fear? Concern? Concern that it would happen again. She changed the topic. I really don't think... That she thinks it is a good thing when I express emotion. I try and... Be calm. A little numb. Calm. To talk calmly. To express upset with a tear or two but that is all. To not startle. I hate me :-(
> I think you CAN be very intense. Sometimes our greatest gifts are our hardest challenges. I think your intensity is a gift, you just goto get a handle on it, cuz its a powerful gift. You could do lots of good things with your intensity...
(((Muffled)))
I don't think so. I think that is how I'm damaged.
And it is there... For all to see. Not hard to figure me out.
My supervisor said something about 'and you don't exactly treat your body as a temple'. I ignored him. But he is right. And it isn't exactly confidential information, I suppose. Munted fingernails... Anxious habits... Scars... F*cked up legs... And wearing my emotions on my sleeve :-( I hate being embodied :-(
> I wonder if you are very adroitly sidestepping and redirecting conversation when it gets too close to where you don't want to go..... I dunno.
I'm scared muffled. Scared. Numb. Scared. Numb. Numb. Numb. I don't feel anything. I DON'T. I don't know what to do... I can't think sometimes. Can't think. I hate feeling like that. In therapy sometimes. Can't understand. Can't follow. Can't... I don't know.
> ***But Alex you ARE kind. Its like I always trust that you are genuine in your caring, that no matter how involved in a debate etc you get, you will always come down to baseline and be very careful to apologise and make sure you have hurt noone. I have seen this again and again. I think feisty is GOOD. You are feisty AND very caring.
((((((((((muffled)))))))))))
Sometimes I'm not kind muffled :-( Sometimes I'm not. But I feel really privaledged that you trust me. I hope I never hurt you muffled.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 3, 2006, at 5:21:22
In reply to Opening up » alexandra_k, posted by littleone on October 2, 2006, at 21:45:26
> Hi alex,
Hey.
> I found with my T that when we talk about head stuff (adult stuff) I feel pretty much no connection to him. Saying the words just puts up a wall between us. But if I can start talking about the feeling stuff or about about thoughts/feelings from my younger parts (I guess a lot of these would be deeper fear kind of stuff), then that's when I start to feel connected to him.I think... Understanding is important to me. I feel connected when I feel like I understand someone and find what they are saying interesting or when I feel like someone understands me and finds what I have to say to be interesting. I think thats why I got on so well with my past t... In a way it kind of is a defence. In sessions... She used to switch between talking about my work or my thoughts on something and talking about my feelings or my thoughts on more personal matters. Sometimes the latter would... Get to be too much. So we would switch back to talking about the former. Sometimes she would explain something abstractly and then make it more concrete to apply to my case. And sometimes I could follow the abstract stuff but when it came to applying it to my case that was so much harder. Sometimes... I couldn't do it. I miss her so much. I've had some other clinician's since who kind of hooked into this way of doing things. But other clinician's... I don't really have an understanding connection with them and thus... I don't seem to be able to get the other sort of connection either. But I need to try harder. Try and meet her halfway. Try and do this. Try my best. See what we can do.
> If a T can't handle strong emotions, then they shouldn't be a T. It's not your role to protect your T. If you *are* doing that, then it might help to try to think of how you protected significant people in your past.I... Used to feel protective towards my Father. Because my Mother was very emotionally intense. I could see him cringing from her and she would be f*cking ropable and I'd want to protect him. But I never did. But then fairs fair he never protected me neither lol. I'm scared of me because... I'm just like her. And so I'm f*cking terrified of me. And I think that some of whats inside... I don't think anybody can handle that. I need to learn. But I have to get stronger before I start to access it. I need to be strong enough to deal with what comes up. I lost it a couple times before. Don't really remember... Years ago now. Couple of times when nurses were going on and on and on at me on the ward about causing my own distress and stuff. I felt like I started to go numb and shot out of my body from behind. I watched me lunge at the nurse and start hitting and yelling. Snapped back after getting jumped on by peoples. Curled up. Was mortified. Mortified. That happened a couple of times. I don't ever want that to happen again. It can't happen again. I'm serious. My emotions aren't safe.
> See, once again this is done to protect the T. That's not your job. If you want to go to therapy and sit in silence for an hour, then you can. It's your hour.
:-(
:-(
But it wasn't ok. I got terminated
:-(I'm sorry.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 3, 2006, at 5:43:42
In reply to Opening up » alexandra_k, posted by littleone on October 2, 2006, at 21:45:26
I'm sorry littleone. I guess... Opening up is about the scariest thing in the world for me :-(
Posted by littleone on October 3, 2006, at 22:28:27
In reply to Re: Opening up » littleone, posted by alexandra_k on October 3, 2006, at 5:21:22
> I... Used to feel protective towards my Father. Because my Mother was very emotionally intense. I could see him cringing from her and she would be f*cking ropable and I'd want to protect him. But I never did. But then fairs fair he never protected me neither lol. I'm scared of me because... I'm just like her. And so I'm f*cking terrified of me. And I think that some of whats inside... I don't think anybody can handle that.
I think it can be hard to see the differences between our beliefs and reality. For example (and I'm not saying this is the case, just something to think about) it may be possible that you grew up to believe that that type of interaction is totally intolerable and can't be handled at all.
But remember that it was the young you who first experienced that and started to believe it. Then that belief carried through to the present day you through countless instances where it was re-proven.
And it would be perfectly understandable that the young you found that intolerable. The young you probably wouldn't have had the resources to cope with it.
But a healthy and well adjusted adult probably *would* have the internal resources to handle that experience.
A good goal might be to learn to trust your T to be a healthy and well adjusted adult who has sufficient internal resources to handle experiences you might bring to your therapy. It could be very healing for you to experience your T coping with these "intense" experiences.
> But I have to get stronger before I start to access it. I need to be strong enough to deal with what comes up.
I know. It is very very hard. And will take a long time and a lot of hard work. I guess I just get worried when I see you trying to leave her. Get worried that you're doing a runner like I always want to. Leaving because you're afraid to do the real work with her.
> I watched me lunge at the nurse and start hitting and yelling. Snapped back after getting jumped on by peoples. Curled up. Was mortified. Mortified. That happened a couple of times. I don't ever want that to happen again. It can't happen again. I'm serious. My emotions aren't safe.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is that even if you don't let the emotions out during therapy, at the very least you need to talk about why you think that is unsafe. Tell her what's happened in the past, tell her what your fears are, tell her what your fears about telling her are. It was babble that taught me that if you can't talk about something, talk about talking about it.
> But it wasn't ok. I got terminated
> :-(:(
I'm sorry alex. I know I'm pushing you here and I think that's probably my own stuff leaking out. I'm sorry if it feels like a hard shove. It's not meant to be. I'd just like good things for you.
I guess I have a hard time reading people here. Like I'll see you and someone debating a point and I'll cringe and hide because it feels like an argument. But then they'll say something that makes it apparent it doesn't feel like an argument to them at all.
And then here I try to point something out to you and I think it will be fine, but instead I hurt you. I'm sorry I'm no good at this people stuff.
I feel a real strong urge to delete the top half of this post. But I won't because I think there is an important message in there. But I will say that if you don't like what I wrote, please feel free to ignore it. Like I said, I think there is my stuff leaking out there.
Posted by muffled on October 3, 2006, at 23:14:30
In reply to Re: Do you believe this? » muffled, posted by alexandra_k on October 3, 2006, at 5:02:12
> > ***I think its part of our culture to hide emotions too much....
>
> Well...
> They found that people in American culture tend to be expressive.
> In Japanese culture, however, there would be a brief flash of emotion and then it would be masked. The brief flash was enough to reliably signal to others what emotion the person was experiencing. It is typically thought that American culture is one of the most expressive cultures...***LOL. I'm canadian, I think we must be known for hiding stuff...
> There is stuff on game theory, though. About barganing ability and the like. Being able to conceal fear and the like so as to be a more effective bargainer. I wish I had more emotional control. I wish. I wish. I feel like... I wear my heart on my sleeve much of the time. I hate that. I feel... Naked. How much better to feel numb.
***Maybe it could be rephrased to, you are genuine, you are real. Mebbe its not the nicest to hide stuff and be an effective bargainer, maybe its good to be honest and real.
> > ***And did you guys talk about that? About the fact you felt she looked surprized?
>
> No. Surprise... Aversion... Slight... Fear? Concern? Concern that it would happen again. She changed the topic. I really don't think... That she thinks it is a good thing when I express emotion. I try and... Be calm. A little numb. Calm. To talk calmly. To express upset with a tear or two but that is all. To not startle. I hate me :-(***Ahhhhhhhhhh, see there's alot surrounding that small flash of 'surprize'.
I don't hate you.
Emotional control is good generally speaking, but if you got stuff to deal with, then mebbe those emots need to come around or at least be talked about, so that thwey can be dealt with...
(I talk SUCH a good line eh? Me the non expresser of emots at therapy . LOL!!!)>
> > I think you CAN be very intense. Sometimes our greatest gifts are our hardest challenges. I think your intensity is a gift, you just goto get a handle on it, cuz its a powerful gift. You could do lots of good things with your intensity...
>
> (((Muffled)))
> I don't think so. I think that is how I'm damaged.
> And it is there... For all to see. Not hard to figure me out.
> My supervisor said something about 'and you don't exactly treat your body as a temple'. I ignored him. But he is right. And it isn't exactly confidential information, I suppose. Munted fingernails... Anxious habits... Scars... F*cked up legs... And wearing my emotions on my sleeve :-( I hate being embodied :-(***Your supervisor should go f*ck himself. I suppose he treats his body as a temple???? Never drinks, smokes, eats junk food, overdoes things etc, etc.
MOST people don't treat their body as a temple.
We all have our stuff we do.
Mebbe some more than others, but your surely not alone.
>
>
> > I wonder if you are very adroitly sidestepping and redirecting conversation when it gets too close to where you don't want to go..... I dunno.
>
> I'm scared muffled. Scared. Numb. Scared. Numb. Numb. Numb. I don't feel anything. I DON'T. I don't know what to do... I can't think sometimes. Can't think. I hate feeling like that. In therapy sometimes. Can't understand. Can't follow. Can't... I don't know.***I think it may be a dissociative defense mechanism brought on by stress. Anxiety reduces memory capacity. You keep numbing cuz you scared. Don't I know. I do it too. Oftentimes in my journal I have written 'I don't even feel human, I am quasi human' and the like.
If you can relax and come to trust your T (took me over 1 1/2 yr.-and she bent over backwards to get me to trust her), then you won't get so confused.
Sometimes I feel like I'm the biggest idiot on earth cuz I don't understand the most simple, understandable relational type stuff.
>
> > ***But Alex you ARE kind. Its like I always trust that you are genuine in your caring, that no matter how involved in a debate etc you get, you will always come down to baseline and be very careful to apologise and make sure you have hurt noone. I have seen this again and again. I think feisty is GOOD. You are feisty AND very caring.
>
> ((((((((((muffled)))))))))))
> Sometimes I'm not kind muffled :-( Sometimes I'm not. But I feel really privaledged that you trust me. I hope I never hurt you muffled.
>
You proly will hurt me, and it will be ok, cuz I trust you. I will trust that we can work it out.
Its the human condition to hurt people. Everybody hurts people. We don't mean to, but it happens.
Sometimes I'm not kind either. Sometimes I have awful thots.
Or derive satifaction from someone elses discomfiture, cuz i think they desrve it or something. Or I gossip, or I am selfish etc, etc.
We not perfect.
We are works in progress.
Slowly, slowly, getting better.
Sometimes we fall back, but we ever gaining.
We gonna be ok Alex.
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by muffled on October 3, 2006, at 23:39:52
In reply to Re: Opening up » littleone, posted by alexandra_k on October 3, 2006, at 5:43:42
> I'm sorry littleone. I guess... Opening up is about the scariest thing in the world for me :-(
***This is muffled, but I wanted to say that opening up is TERRIFYING. No doubt about it. I think that was why it was SO important that I trust my T. We went round and round and round, me testing her left and right.
But I think I can say now, that I trust her pretty much now.
And now talking to her isn't so terrifying, cuz I trust her not to ridicule me or puposely hurt me or be disgusted by me etc.
Well, mebbe it still totally freaks me, but now I can do it, where I couldn't before. Open up more I mean.>Couple of times when nurses were going on and on and on at me on the ward about causing my own distress and stuff. I felt like I started to go numb and shot out of my body from behind. I watched me lunge at the nurse and start hitting and yelling. Snapped back after getting jumped on by peoples. Curled up. Was mortified. Mortified. That happened a couple of times. I don't ever want that to happen again. It can't happen again. I'm serious. My emotions aren't safe.
***Thats is just a defense mechanism. Fight or flight. Those nurses went on at you, you couldn't get away, so you protected yourself. Stupid nurses got what they asked for and hopefully they learned something.
Then your final defense was freeze. And you curled up, cuz there was nothing left to do....
I remember asking my T NUMEROUS times if she was afraid of me. She would just calmly say 'should I be?', in a totally unafraid voice.
I fortunately don't think I'd ever jump my T. She knows I carry a knife most of the time.
I tend to lash out at inanimate objects mostly, or myself, or flight at all costs. I have been tackled. I have been put in restraints. I get scared sometimes, that mebbe I'd hurt my T, but somehow in reality I don't think I ever would.
I think if you are very honest with your T about how you feel bout your intense emotions and the fear you have of losing control, then the T can take some very basic protective measures. For BOTH of your guys comfort.
Like T sitting closer to the door, and/or panic button, if need be she could sit in a chair she can easily jump out from. Mebbe putting a table btwn. you. I dunno. It could be only temporary, so you could feel better bout being safe to express your emotions. And mebbe give T the opprtunity to help you learn to calm yourself at these times. And then once you've conquered that, mebbe you can deal with what sets you off in the first place etc. etc.
Yep, think that might be a good first step.
Easy to say when its not ME.
Anyhow, I NEVER woulda thot I'd have gotten as far as I have w/my T, but I have.
So if your T isn't willing to make a safe environment for you, or is too fearful, well, mebbe she isn't the T for you.....
But mebbe if you lay your cards on the table she will try?
Idunno.
But T needs to be safe before you can open up. Whatever needs to be done so you don't got to be afraid.
Take care,
Muffled(aka missknowitall)
Posted by alexandra_k on October 4, 2006, at 16:05:31
In reply to Re: Opening up » alexandra_k, posted by littleone on October 3, 2006, at 22:28:27
> > I... Used to feel protective towards my Father. Because my Mother was very emotionally intense. I could see him cringing from her and she would be f*cking ropable and I'd want to protect him. But I never did. But then fairs fair he never protected me neither lol. I'm scared of me because...
...I internalised her. I lived with her for 14 years and the last 7 of those years he wasn't around so she interacted with me. And so... I've internalised her way of talking. A voice in my head... Not me, can't be me. In my head, must be me. Sometimes I get caught up in it... Othertimes I'm horrified and mortified and ashamed of the voice / thoughts. It was her and now its a part of me. And if I'm not careful around people I might try and elicit it from others. So they can be bad instead of me.
Sigh.
I got to reading this book yesterday about attachment and projective identification and the like. It was a bit painful, but it is making more sense to me now. Have been having some internal conflict... I think I'm feeling a bit calmer now. A bit fragile. Internal conflict. Haven't felt it like this for a long time. Things moving inside... In an interesting though scary way. I don't know. I want to be a better person. I want to be a safe person. Safe to be around others. Locked myself away for a while because I didn't want to hurt people. Hurt me instead. I want to get better. I've been socialising more IRL. Social anxiety is hard. Especially around food. Every time... Every time it is important I make social blunders. Only... I'm not sure that they are blunders really. It is more about blundering on. Smiling and enjoying yourself. Not feeling mortified. It is okay. People don't give a sh*t so long as I'm having a good time. It is okay. Nobody even noticed. And if they did they don't care. They will have forgotten all about it by the end of the night. I don't have to replay it over and over and over or hurt myself later. It is okay. People are okay really. People can be great. I wish I was a better person to them.
> A good goal might be to learn to trust your T to be a healthy and well adjusted adult who has sufficient internal resources to handle experiences you might bring to your therapy. It could be very healing for you to experience your T coping with these "intense" experiences.
Yes. Little slow steps. Take a little risk and see how it goes. If it goes okay then take another little risk and see how that goes. That way one builds trust over time and as one builds trust the risks can get bigger.
The trouble is that I do take these little risks and... They don't seem to go okay. Why not? She is a nice lady trying to help. I really believe that. She IS a nice lady trying to help. But I do not feel... Like the little risks are paying off. Thats why... I feel disconnected.
> I guess I just get worried when I see you trying to leave her. Get worried that you're doing a runner like I always want to. Leaving because you're afraid to do the real work with her.
Maybe. But then I have worked okay with some people... And yeah sometimes I want to run from them too. But I want to be close to them sometimes too. With this lady... I don't know. Maybe I am running away. I don't know. She is going away in November for a month and she said she will try and see whether her supervisor can see me during that period. I will see if we get on any better. I do want to work. I'm just not sure that things are working out with her.
You are great you know. I saw your response further up the board... The thread about forgiveness and stuff. I wanted to reply just so you would know that I read your post but... You kind of said it all. I thought it was a great post. Nothing left to be said. I know that sounds strange... But sometimes posts are like that.
Thanks for talking with me. It means a lot.
How is your therapy going?
Posted by alexandra_k on October 4, 2006, at 16:12:41
In reply to Re: Opening up » alexandra_k, posted by muffled on October 3, 2006, at 23:39:52
> You proly will hurt me, and it will be ok, cuz I trust you. I will trust that we can work it out.
Yeah. Thank you.
> We not perfect.
We are works in progress.
Slowly, slowly, getting better.Yeah. It can be hard to see how far we have come sometimes...
And still... So far away.I'm fairly tired... Have a busy day ahead. Woke up at 5am. Most unlike me...
I'm so glad you have your t. Sounds like you guys get on great and you have been making a lot of progress with trust and stuff.
:-)
Thanks muffled.
Posted by littleone on October 4, 2006, at 21:37:16
In reply to Re: Opening up » littleone, posted by alexandra_k on October 4, 2006, at 16:05:31
> ...I internalised her.
:(
A little while ago I had to make a list of all the ways that my life had been impacted by the way my mother mothered. It was a very long and very negative list and it upset me a lot.
I figure your list would have the above line on it and that makes me real sad too. Even if you chose to protect yourself and stop being with her ... how do you stop being with *you*?
I bet that was a real painful realisation to make. I guess understanding is the first step to healing, but still ... very painful.
> I got to reading this book yesterday about attachment and projective identification and the like.
Do you know what the title/author is?
> It is more about blundering on. Smiling and enjoying yourself. Not feeling mortified.
I think the real secret is to have enough ego strength to truly not be bothered by what other people think of you. Obviously I'm a long way from getting even close to that one.
> The trouble is that I do take these little risks and... They don't seem to go okay. Why not? She is a nice lady trying to help. I really believe that. She IS a nice lady trying to help. But I do not feel... Like the little risks are paying off. Thats why... I feel disconnected.
Yeah, I can see that would leave you feeling disconnected. Sorry, but I get a bit confused. Are you talking each of these instances over with her when they happen? And are you saying how you felt when she did something? And how you wished she would have xx instead? Is she getting the opportunity to explain why she did what she did? (When I say "did", I really mean did, said, didn't do, didn't say, etc).
> You are great you know. I saw your response further up the board... The thread about forgiveness and stuff. I wanted to reply just so you would know that I read your post but... You kind of said it all. I thought it was a great post. Nothing left to be said. I know that sounds strange... But sometimes posts are like that.Thanks for saying that. I had thought I'd upset everyone.
> Thanks for talking with me. It means a lot.I'm glad you were okay with it. I had thought I was making things bad for you.
> How is your therapy going?I might post a new thread about it. I'll have to see how I feel. Sometimes I find babble real hard. I think that if I do post it, it'll quickly become very apparent as to why I was so concerned about you doing a runner.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 4, 2006, at 22:44:05
In reply to Re: Opening up » alexandra_k, posted by littleone on October 4, 2006, at 21:37:16
> I bet that was a real painful realisation to make.
Well... That part was kind of okay. Because I knew I thought 'bad' thoughts sometimes. It makes sense of why. Of where it comes from. Makes it understandable and stuff.
> > I got to reading this book yesterday about attachment and projective identification and the like.
>
> Do you know what the title/author is?"The American Psychiatric Publishing Textbook of Personality Disorders"
There is an article on attachment and mentalisation in BPD.The harder stuff was about... Projective identification. There was something about mirroring in attachment. How attachment figures mimic your emotions and... Can't remember exactly... But that is supposed to be good. But when there isn't this kind of mirroring... Then sometimes you attempt to elicit (aka manipulate) others into mirroring your internal state. That is why sometimes when one is distressed one tries to elicit distress from another. Mirroring. But when the internal state is 'bad' and one elicits that from another then one gets to say 'the badness isn't in me after all - it is in you'. It is a way of coping with the badness inside. By externalising it. Maybe that is why people with BPD are thought to have bad boundaries. Because the bad in the environment gets internalised... Then it comes back out into the environment again. Hard stuff to think about...
> I think the real secret is to have enough ego strength to truly not be bothered by what other people think of you. Obviously I'm a long way from getting even close to that one.
Yeah. Though... I guess we are supposed to have attachments at various levels and stuff. Caring about what other people think is part of being human, I reckon. Maybe it is about... Trusting that other people aren't as likely to think the worst as I am. And trusting that other people have stable enough representations of me so that they won't judge me too harshly. And coming to have a stable enough representation of myself so my self worth isn't dependent on my performance at every particular instant...
> Are you talking each of these instances over with her when they happen?
No. It is hard to explain... There just isn't an understanding connection. I mean... I can give you an example. I was telling her that I worry about being stupid. About people evaluating me as stupid. And she was like 'but you know you aren't stupid or you wouldn't be doing what you are doing'. And I was like 'but I'm worried about being the stupidest person doing what I'm doing'. And I am. Because the goal posts have shifted. And... She didn't understand. She doesn't understand. Lots of examples like that. And she tries to focus my attention on how few people do what I do but she doesn't understand that that isn't the relevant comparison class. I'm not worried about the former comparison class I'm worried about the latter. I'm worried about fitting into the latter. I'm worried about their evaluation of me because their evaluation of me determines whether I get a job or not, whether I get good references or not, whether I get publications or not, and so forth. Whether they invest in me or not. I mean they are kind of invested already but they do talk about 'taking gambles' on some students and about how 'sometimes that pays off and sometimes it doesn't' and I've surely seen what has happened to some people who they decided not to invest further in. They end up becoming public servants. Which is okay so far as that goes but I'm not doing this to become a public servant. And... She doesn't understand. I kind of think she doesn't *need* to understand. But her lack of understanding seems to prevent her validating my feelings. And I guess I do need that validation so I elaborate and talk it through. When people directly attempt to intervene on my thoughts, on the other hand, I don't feel safe sharing what is going on for me. Sometimes... The process of expressing... I guess it is hard for clinicians to see me in distress and not attempt to intervene. Just to let me... Experience it. It is later... Later that I can rationally process what happened and what that was about. Then I benefit. I don't know. I guess I just think that we aren't particularly well suited.
> Thanks for saying that. I had thought I'd upset everyone.
No.
> I'm glad you were okay with it. I had thought I was making things bad for you.No. You are helping.
> I might post a new thread about it. I'll have to see how I feel. Sometimes I find babble real hard. I think that if I do post it, it'll quickly become very apparent as to why I was so concerned about you doing a runner.
Ok. I'll check the boards later tonight. Right now... I better do some work.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2006, at 7:34:45
In reply to Re: Opening up » alexandra_k, posted by littleone on October 4, 2006, at 21:37:16
http://www.net.klte.hu/~keresofi/psyth/a-to-z-entries/projective_identification.html
Posted by Declan on October 5, 2006, at 10:00:38
In reply to Re: projective identification » littleone, posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2006, at 7:34:45
That was as good a description as I have read of it.
Very familiar.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2006, at 19:40:53
In reply to Re: projective identification, posted by Declan on October 5, 2006, at 10:00:38
> That was as good a description as I have read of it.
> Very familiar.yeah. i didn't know what it was before.
i feel... bad about this... i feel bad about this. i feel arrogant and then i feel ashamed. but... this seems to describe what is going on in my therapy:> This inequality might make the therapist feel insecure and, therefore, it will impair her work. If she does not notice or appreciate this difference, the patient certainly will. He might experience something similar to what one experiences when the image of a much-respected dear friend is shattered inside oneself. He might then feel pity or contempt for the therapist. Such feelings, based on the correct assessment of the situation, will damage the therapeutic relationship and render the work ineffectual or impossible.
except... how are you supposed to feel 'when the image of a much-respected dear friend is shattered inside oneself'? like i killed it? is that the idea?
i feel a bit like that...
but those are bad thoughts...
i think... that i do struggle with finding a clinician i get along with. why? because some of them aren't willing to give me a chance. because they have seen my file / heard of me from others. because there was a time when... before DBT when... i didn't know how to make the bad feelings stop and i guess i thought there was nothing i could do and they started to get frustrated that i wasn't getting any better. so i was refusing to do the work, to help myself etc. blaming the victim. because of pressure on the public service. too many people too few clinicians too little time...
but then some people who would have been about perfect for me... wouldn't work with me. 'i'd love to work with you but if i were to do that i'd be doing what i wanted instead of doing my job. my job is to prescribe medication'. wouldn't work with me. or did for a time... then moved on.
and then people who are so well intentioned. so very well intentioned. caring. lovely people. genuine lovely people. and i can't connect with them. because... they don't off balance me. they don't understand me. because... i'm smarter than them. i feel bad saying that. because they don't off balance me i just go from defence to defence to defence and i don't seem to be able to break out of that by myself. it isn't working. it isn't going to work. and that is why.
but i can't say that. not in one million years. i have been thinking it for a while... but i'd never say that. to say it to think it makes me want to hurt myself. for my arrogance. i know i can be an arrogant sh*t at times and it is something i hate about myself. i wouldn't say it... even though... i think she knows. i think she knows what it is. i think she knows what is wrong. sometimes... she doesn't understand because she feels insecure about herself. i feel insecure when she feels insecure. i want to reassure her because she is such a lovely person.
i don't think thi sis just a defence.
i know when it is a defence (in a bit of hindsight anyway)
it has been a while that i've been trying to get through this.
it isn't working.i remember the interview with her supervisor. she was nice too. nice and compassionate and stuff. followed my implications... saw what i was getting at. my current t doesn't understand those. she seemed to have a bit of a... stubborn streak. or something. some kind of inner strength. like she wouldn't be afraid to challenge or call me on my sh*t. it might work with her.
the online thing said that... session 5 seemed to be crucial. in terms of indicating how things were likely to go.
it would be nice if there was an assessment session at session 5 so they could look at whether it is working or not.
i probably shouldn't beat myself up so much about this. the particular kind of intelligence i'm talking about is one thing, being a f*cking decent human being who is kind and stuff can be quite another. i don't look down on her. i really don't think i do. but i can't think of her as my t. she is just a really nice lady who i go and talk to sometimes.
Posted by gardenergirl on October 5, 2006, at 20:39:02
In reply to Re: projective identification, posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2006, at 19:40:53
> because... they don't off balance me. they don't understand me. because... i'm smarter than them. i feel bad saying that. because they don't off balance me i just go from defence to defence to defence and i don't seem to be able to break out of that by myself. it isn't working. it isn't going to work. and that is why.
I understand this. The knowledge of it and the feeling bad about it. And how shameful it can feel when you are smart and yet also need someone's help, but not just anyone's. It's real, alex. It's not a shameful or arrogant thing about you. It's a strength. A gift.
And
It makes it much more difficult for you as far as therapy is concerned. I wish it didn't. And I know I'm blessed to have the T that I do. I've tried to work with a couple of others in the past, but I knew what I was "supposed to" say or I knew what they were doing, and it didn't work.
What can help counter the intellectual piece is if you can get in a situation where you can just sort of sink into it. Submerge, surrender, and let go. But that takes incredible trust, and it takes time. But I wish that for you, very much.
> i don't look down on her. i really don't think i do.I don't hear that in your words. And I've experienced a very kind, caring alex, so I believe you.
(((((alex))))))
gg
Posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2006, at 20:48:34
In reply to Re: projective identification » alexandra_k, posted by gardenergirl on October 5, 2006, at 20:39:02
thank you gg.
i don't really feel ashamed that i need someones help. it is more that i feel ashamed that... i can't let her help me. i guess that is what it comes down to. yes, part of me wants to work, but i guess another part of me doesn't want to work, it is trying to defend me. and... the defensive part is pretty smart and does... exploit. i think that is the word. and i feel bad about that. because she is kind. and she is trying. and i feel ashamed that... that isn't enough. it might have been enough if it was earlier in life... but not now. it isn't enough now. and i feel ashamed about that.> What can help counter the intellectual piece is if you can get in a situation where you can just sort of sink into it. Submerge, surrender, and let go.
i can't. well... i guess i have done that at times... but it is because they called me on stuff. they broke through. and found something... i can't put away the stuff to get to that something by myself. i try, but my trying is typically trying rationally to understand. trying harder... is just more of the same really. though sometimes... i think i do find something there. i think i do. but it can be hard to be objective about oneself. so very hard...
i'll see how it goes with this other lady. it will just take... probably 5 sessions to know. to see...
i wish... i wasn't like this.
Posted by Daisym on October 5, 2006, at 21:03:34
In reply to Re: projective identification » gardenergirl, posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2006, at 20:48:34
I hear so much sadness in your words. I feel like you do - I'm so smart that I can "manuever" easily around other people's attempts. But I desperately want to stop doing that and feel cared for and heard and helped.
I'm so thankful that my therapist won't let me get away with much. He is smart and a total smarta%%! He uses humor a lot but he is also tough when he needs to be. Once he said, in a sort of angry voice, "who are you saying that to? Me? Me - who has watched you weep? Pull that 'I'm fine sh%% with someone else!" Hmmm -- scary but soooo nice.
I hope this new person works for you.
Posted by littleone on October 6, 2006, at 0:33:22
In reply to Re: Opening up » littleone, posted by alexandra_k on October 4, 2006, at 22:44:05
I've seen gardenergirl talking about projective identification before. I understand what she said and what it's about, but I find it hard to see what stuff of mine is that and what is another type of defense.
But I do think that I do it too.
I guess the thing you need to remember is that you aren't doing it in a deliberate overt attempt to maliciously manipulate the other person or yourself. It's a coping mechanism you've learnt over the years and should be respected in part - because it has helped you cope.
I wonder how harmful it would truly feel to fully know about and own the negative aspects of oneself. I mean, I know this can be worked towards and achieved. But I wonder how harmful it would have been to know and own those things as we were growing up.
I read a really interesting thread about the term "manipulation" on another forum recently. This sometimes comes up as a bad thing for me because of my control issues. But from memory I think it would probably apply to projective identification as well.
> > Are you talking each of these instances over with her when they happen?
>
> No. It is hard to explain... There just isn't an understanding connection.I understand what you said. But by the same token, she'll never understand if you don't keep explaining it to her further.
Are you still going to write things out for her like you were thinking of doing?
It would probably also be good to write to her about the projective identification. I think that's an important thing to get her feedback on. The thing with it is that say you think she is taking on your anger for example, you don't really know this unless you talk to her. Only she can tell you if a) she is angry, b) if it's from you or her own stuff, c) if it's unusual for her (and therefore maybe proj iden), d) if she thinks proj iden is at play there. This is the sort of thing you need feedback from her on. You can't know what's going on inside for her without her help.
Also, re being smarter than your T, I have this problem a lot too. I get very squirmy trying to write this, but my T believes I'm actually very very intelligent (ie a long way above normal). And he thinks he is more on the high normal range. I find this real hard because it gives the teenager and extra solid reason for leaving him (how can he possibly help me if he's dumber than me). And I also think that's a real bad thought to have. But it is there. So bad or not, it needs to be accepted and dealt with.
I guess I try to remember that I might have brain smarts or book smarts, but he has people smarts and insight smarts. He's real smart in an area I'm not. Can you see where your T might have smarts where you don't?
Posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2006, at 17:41:48
In reply to Re: projective identification » alexandra_k, posted by littleone on October 6, 2006, at 0:33:22
> I've seen gardenergirl talking about projective identification before. I understand what she said and what it's about, but I find it hard to see what stuff of mine is that and what is another type of defense.
> I wonder how harmful it would truly feel to fully know about and own the negative aspects of oneself. I mean, I know this can be worked towards and achieved. But I wonder how harmful it would have been to know and own those things as we were growing up.i guess thinking of it as genes + natural and social environment -> thoughts / feelings etc -> behaviour. means that the badness is only in me because of the meeting of my genes and my natural and social environment. given that stuff was the way it was... the bad thougts were inevitable. it isn't my fault the bad is inside me. i don't know. this sounds hollow sometimes. i don't know what i believe.
> I understand what you said. But by the same token, she'll never understand if you don't keep explaining it to her further.
i can't afford to risk that much.
> Are you still going to write things out for her like you were thinking of doing?no.
> Can you see where your T might have smarts where you don't?
no.
like i said: she is a really lovely person who is trying to help me. she has a lot of qualities that i really value. but this isn't going to work.
This is the end of the thread.
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