![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 21 to 45 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by Kingfish on August 12, 2001, at 15:19:29
In reply to Re: spouses and alcohol » Willow, posted by Marie1 on August 11, 2001, at 19:32:15
> Willow,
> Yeah, I think you're right. I wonder if Greg would agree. Greg?? I also agree about the physical attributes; to me it's always been more the person's character that creates the sense of sexual attraction. I guess (some) men are different that way. Once again, there's proof of the superiority of the feminine sex! :-)
>
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Okay, here's a sticky question - are you still sexually attracted to your wife? I ask because I know that I'm not really attracted to my husband anymore, although physically he hasn't changed all that much in the last 20 yrs. I guess it's more about how I feel about him as a person. If that desire is gone, and the romance is gone, is it possible to get it back? To me, that's everything.
> >
> > Marie
> >
> > I think you hit the nail on the head! (Is that a pun?) I don't know if it is the same for men, but I do believe a woman needs a connection with her mate. Without the emotional connection we start staring at the ceiling.
> >
> > Physical attributes don't have much to do with sexual attraction for myself. (Well maybe it isn't sexual, more a warm cuddly feeling.) Anybody that is smiling and having fun I like. And then let the poor soul give me any praise, (thanks to effexor) I'll lap it up like a little puppy, friend for life.
> >
> > So I guess if we're not connecting emotionally with our spouses, they start to look less desirable.
> >
Posted by Greg A. on August 13, 2001, at 13:19:30
In reply to Poor Greg ;) (np), posted by Kingfish on August 12, 2001, at 15:19:29
Hi! I didn’t realize I had positioned myself as the defender of all males. All I can do is say how I feel or think and that is probably not very representative of others.
My wife is not as physically attractive to me as she used to be. But I don’t think that’s the make or break point in our relationship. (I suppose even I may have changed a little over the twenty plus years we have been married) The emotional closeness is definitely not there anymore though. Where did it go? The stress of kids, careers, goals not reached . . . I don’t know. I think, in general, men are attracted to whatever they perceive as good looking in a woman – at least on a primordial level. For me, if there’s no substance there, I quickly lose interest. The urge to reproduce is just not that strong. What do I find attractive, looks aside? Wit. Compassion, Understanding. Intelligence. That’s why I married my wife. All those things are still there but some ingredient has gone missing, or I am not looking as hard as I used to. I read somewhere that serial monogamy is the normal state for humans. Not one partner for life but one partner after another – just one at a time though. This seems to be the path a lot of men go down. Do we not grow up and mature? Do we try to retain our youth by collecting a trophy bride? Probably. Marie – maybe you’re right. Your husband is still in party mode from college. And you are not. Something has made you examine that life and decide to change. I know lots of men like that. They have left wives and children because they got in the way of having ‘fun’. I have a friend who left his young family for another woman. He told me ‘Watch out what you wish for – it just might come true.’ So I will consider things very carefully and try not to act impulsively. I will take my time with this important decision. I sure wish I had a clue as to what makes me tick though.
Posted by Willow on August 13, 2001, at 13:52:11
In reply to Re: Poor Greg ;) (np), posted by Greg A. on August 13, 2001, at 13:19:30
*I sure wish I had a clue as to what makes me tick though.
I think what makes us click is the key. For myself being able to maintain some form of independence on my own is key, but feeling the way I do right now I'm limited by how much I can do. Finding another partner would not improve this.
Having said that we have grown in different directions, though my spouse is quite content with the status quo, only change he would like is for myself to be earning a paycheque or for us to have more finances. For myself I would like a spouse who takes more interest in my activities and thoughts. Someone to share with.
I know that is a contradiction of what I said earlier, but it would be nice to find the right balance that would leave both of us happy and content.
I've become a roommate who preforms sexual favours. This is not how I imagined marriage, but perhaps I want too much. Some friends who have been married about the same length say their spouses aren't even interested in the physcial aspects of the relationship anymore.
Searching Willow
Posted by Kingfish on August 13, 2001, at 13:54:04
In reply to Re: Poor Greg ;) (np), posted by Greg A. on August 13, 2001, at 13:19:30
Sorry to jump in, but just a quick note from a female - I often don't feel like being monogamous at all (with one person for the rest of my life). Have been married nine years and have recently gone through a mjor upheaval, and am still going through it, too. When I finally realized that I have always felt "odd" about monogamy, I felt better.
I think society expects women to want a lifetime monogamous relationship, and that's not always the case. It doesn't mean you don't have one, it just means, you have to accept that desire is there.
I think your explanation fits me pretty well, Greg, the desire for serial monogamy.
Thinking about actually leaving my husband did a lot for me - it opened up new possibilities that I never thought of before, because I thought I "shouldn't." I'm still struggling. I don't have children, so it makes it easier for me, I think.
Getting away for awhile, even a night or two at a time is imperative, so you can get a different perspective. I went on a 10 day trip to visit friends and my parents. Without that, I don't know what would have happened...
- K.
Posted by Greg A. on August 13, 2001, at 14:19:24
In reply to Monogamy? » Greg A., posted by Kingfish on August 13, 2001, at 13:54:04
Well there are certainly some common threads between us married men and women. The desire for ‘more’. The need for understanding and communication with our spouses. My wife (Leslie) is different from me in some fundamental ways. She likes to have people around all the time. I like time on my own. If I want to be away from her, she takes it as meaning I don’t want her around when all it is, is me satisfying my requirement for space. I also read somewhere that we look for a couple of things in a partner. Our semi-conscious level looks for complements to our own personality. I looked for someone who was more outgoing and social, because I wasn’t. Leslie looked for stability I think, because her family was unstable. Unconsciously, we look for the very things we may have identified in our lives as being undesirable. We are familiar with them. Children of alcoholics marry alcoholics. Children of strict and domineering parents often find domineering and even abusive spouses. Not all the time – but enough times that I am convinced it is something that does happen.
The desire to have new relationships is common. The initial time of getting to know someone is the exciting time. Everything seems new. You ignore all the bad habits and see only the new and interesting. One thing with men – anytime we get to know someone new and female – we always try to make it a sexual thing. Do women have male friends on the same level as their regular friends? What’s the line? Women use sex to get love and men use love to get sex. Something like that.
Enough rambling for now. Perhaps before I’m too old, I’ll have a better idea of who and what I am.
Posted by Marie1 on August 13, 2001, at 17:04:14
In reply to Re: Monogamy?, posted by Greg A. on August 13, 2001, at 14:19:24
You know, it really doesn't seem "natural" that humans are expected to be monogomous for life. People change (duh), and spouses may or may not change in the same direction. I used to consider myself happy or at least content in my marriage. But these days, I want to be married to a grown-up. I don't see how we can stay married and faithful to each other if my husband won't grow up with me.
OTOH, I really believe that nature must have meant for us humans to be monogomous for life because we have children. I don't think you can over estimate the emotional devastation to a child when his parents divorce. Unless, of course, if it's an abusive situation. Personally, I have difficulty imagining getting a divorce from my husband because of my kids. They don't deserve that; it's not their fault their parents have become different people than when they were first married. My kids have enough problems of their own without adding to them by divorcing their father. So as long as my kids are still at home and I feel the way I do, I guess I'm stuck.
Greg, in answer to your question re: having friendships with men (I can only answer for myself of course), I have several male friends with whom I am fairly close. These friendships are platonic, but I think I can say there is ALWAYS some level of sexual tension, at least on my part. The sexual tension isn't a bad thing; it's an awareness of the other person being a man. And vice versa. I'm not sure this will make sense to anyone reading this post, but I can't think of any other way to say it. And my youngest is irritatingly reminding me that I promised to take her to the mall, so enough esoteric rambling for now.Marie
> Well there are certainly some common threads between us married men and women. The desire for ‘more’. The need for understanding and communication with our spouses. My wife (Leslie) is different from me in some fundamental ways. She likes to have people around all the time. I like time on my own. If I want to be away from her, she takes it as meaning I don’t want her around when all it is, is me satisfying my requirement for space. I also read somewhere that we look for a couple of things in a partner. Our semi-conscious level looks for complements to our own personality. I looked for someone who was more outgoing and social, because I wasn’t. Leslie looked for stability I think, because her family was unstable. Unconsciously, we look for the very things we may have identified in our lives as being undesirable. We are familiar with them. Children of alcoholics marry alcoholics. Children of strict and domineering parents often find domineering and even abusive spouses. Not all the time – but enough times that I am convinced it is something that does happen.
> The desire to have new relationships is common. The initial time of getting to know someone is the exciting time. Everything seems new. You ignore all the bad habits and see only the new and interesting. One thing with men – anytime we get to know someone new and female – we always try to make it a sexual thing. Do women have male friends on the same level as their regular friends? What’s the line? Women use sex to get love and men use love to get sex. Something like that.
> Enough rambling for now. Perhaps before I’m too old, I’ll have a better idea of who and what I am.
Posted by Greg A. on August 13, 2001, at 18:14:45
In reply to Re: Monogamy?, posted by Marie1 on August 13, 2001, at 17:04:14
Staying together for the kids. I bet that’s something you swore you’d never ever do. It's different when you have them though, isn’t it? I can’t begin to imagine the unhappiness that would result from splitting up my family. Maybe that’s someone’s way of making us think twice about walking away from a marriage. After twenty or so years of life together, the status quo probably deserves some lengthy consideration before changing everything.
You are right. People do change and grow at different rates. However, I think we are often better at just leaving our problems and differences behind, than at trying to work them out. It requires so much less effort just to walk away. I think you (and possibly me) have a conscience that demands you make the effort and not just opt for the easy way out. That’s good, I think. I do hope that we both end up happy though.
Posted by Marie1 on August 14, 2001, at 7:29:15
In reply to Patience is a virtue??, posted by Greg A. on August 13, 2001, at 18:14:45
> Staying together for the kids. I bet that’s something you swore you’d never ever do. It's different when you have them though, isn’t it? I can’t begin to imagine the unhappiness that would result from splitting up my family. Maybe that’s someone’s way of making us think twice about walking away from a marriage. After twenty or so years of life together, the status quo probably deserves some lengthy consideration before changing everything.
Well put, Greg. I don't want to come across as a martyr and I'm not one to think kids can't handle some diversity in their lives. Nor am I guilty of always putting my kids first, to the exclusion of all other considerations. But they're really so innocent in their parent's problems, and I don't think they should be vicitimized by our - dare I say - selfishness? I see the kids of my friends who are separating and divorcing and it breaks my heart how they react. Then I think, well maybe I've never been as miserable in my marriage as they are. My best friend and business partner has been in this process for the past few years. She has three little ones under the age of twelve who are confused, frightened, insecure, etc. And I think my friend has handled things well as far as trying to prepare her kids. Her separation has been fairly amicable, although her husband was against the idea at first. I've seen her utterly miserable and can't really relate to that degree of unhappiness. Yet. Maybe that day will come, but, yes, right now I'll stay together for my kids. And maybe for myself, too. We can always have hope, can't we?
Marie
> You are right. People do change and grow at different rates. However, I think we are often better at just leaving our problems and differences behind, than at trying to work them out. It requires so much less effort just to walk away. I think you (and possibly me) have a conscience that demands you make the effort and not just opt for the easy way out. That’s good, I think. I do hope that we both end up happy though.
Posted by JennyR on August 14, 2001, at 19:26:06
In reply to Re: Patience is a virtue?? » Greg A., posted by Marie1 on August 14, 2001, at 7:29:15
Man is this all too close to home. I have been unhappy in my marriage for a very long time (17th anniversary coming up). I stay because of the kids, because I don't want it to look bad to the relatives, and because my husband would be devastated - he's a very dependent type. The result is I'm miserable. there's not the slightest doubt in my mind that if this were a boyfriend, I'd be outta there in a flash. What I was willing to settle for then, and what I feel I deserve now are very different.
I feel hopelessly trapped. Glad to know there are other prisoners in this prison, in different cells.
The other question it brings up for me is, does th lousy marriage which meets none of my needs cause the depression, of does the depression make me dissatisfied with the marriage? No way to tell.
Posted by Greg A. on August 15, 2001, at 15:51:26
In reply to Too close to home, posted by JennyR on August 14, 2001, at 19:26:06
Hi Jenny,
I’m not sure if I should respond to your thoughts today or not. It has been a lousy week for me and I may be much too negative.
My wife has asked the chicken vs. egg question on more than one occasion. Am I depressed because of her or are we getting farther apart because I am depressed.
What do you like about your husband? How have you changed so that you feel you need something more? I am a very steady type despite the depression. Nothing flashy. Just a person with a conscience that doesn't walk away from responsibilities. Too much so maybe as I often feel that my responsibilities extend too far for my own good. My wife wants a partner who is more attentive to her needs. For example – I don’t go out with the boys and leave her alone. I just don’t go out at all and she still feels alone. I think she wishes I would do some things away from her as long as that meant the time we were together was better.
I’m just curious what makes a lousy marriage from your point of view and why you settled for something so different than what you need now. Maybe I’ll find something that will help me make some sense out of where I am and give me an idea of what to do. I don’t think at this point, doing nothing is an option for me.Greg
Posted by Willow on August 15, 2001, at 16:41:09
In reply to Too close to home, posted by JennyR on August 14, 2001, at 19:26:06
> I stay because of the kids, and because I don't want to hurt husband. The result is I'm miserable. There's not the slightest doubt in my mind that if this were a boyfriend, I'd be outta there in a flash. What I was willing to settle for then, and what I feel I deserve now are very different.
The other question it brings up for me is, does the lousy marriage which meets none of my needs cause the depression, of does the depression make me dissatisfied with the marriage? No way to tell.I just changed a few words and I'm in the same boat Jenny. I do love my husband, but besides looking after our home and a physical relationship there's nothing else here for me. He's supportive and helpful, plus he does have his bad points. He's miserable/grouchy when he wakes up, plus he doesn't do anything with the children besides feed, etc. Plus he has little interest in social activities unless there is alcohol involved.
For myself I think the depression has made the relationship worse, making me more dependent thus I'm more able to see his faults. If I was busy about my own business I would be happier thus less likely to be seeking blame.
Just some of my many opinions.
Willow
ps been together 16 years maybe it's what comes after the 7 year itch in less than perfect relationships
Posted by susan C on August 15, 2001, at 17:36:44
In reply to Re: Too close to home, posted by Willow on August 15, 2001, at 16:41:09
Something about this week has phrases of songs matching up with posts. And I am one of those people who does not remember artists name or titles.
Just a note to say, I am in a similar situation. Chicken or egg. I am in and with a very stable person who is very devoted...29 years...
These posts did remind me of something that happened along time ago, and I wonder if I should investigate it again. When I talked to my gp, almost 20 years ago, he recommended it not because our marriage was in trouble, but that it could be helped, it is a weekend program offered through church, but it isn't really religious, it is called, i think, Marriage Encounter. Simply the weekend was spend asking questions and writing answers and spending time with your spouse, reestablishing communication...There was no charge, of course they asked for contributions, perhaps equal to one weeks pay. It was a turning point in our lives together. I think with our children older, one gone and the next close, and me, perhaps it is time for some kind of rediscovery?
Being serious
Susan C
> > I stay because of the kids, and because I don't want to hurt husband. The result is I'm miserable. There's not the slightest doubt in my mind that if this were a boyfriend, I'd be outta there in a flash. What I was willing to settle for then, and what I feel I deserve now are very different.
> The other question it brings up for me is, does the lousy marriage which meets none of my needs cause the depression, of does the depression make me dissatisfied with the marriage? No way to tell.
>
> I just changed a few words and I'm in the same boat Jenny. I do love my husband, but besides looking after our home and a physical relationship there's nothing else here for me. He's supportive and helpful, plus he does have his bad points. He's miserable/grouchy when he wakes up, plus he doesn't do anything with the children besides feed, etc. Plus he has little interest in social activities unless there is alcohol involved.
>
> For myself I think the depression has made the relationship worse, making me more dependent thus I'm more able to see his faults. If I was busy about my own business I would be happier thus less likely to be seeking blame.
>
> Just some of my many opinions.
>
> Willow
>
> ps been together 16 years maybe it's what comes after the 7 year itch in less than perfect relationships
Posted by Kingfish on August 15, 2001, at 17:49:07
In reply to my bags are packed, I am ready to go, posted by susan C on August 15, 2001, at 17:36:44
> I think Susan's idea is a good one if you don't mind going with others (and it sounds like it gives you some good direction).
Regardless, I've learned recently, that you both have to be willing to strip the marriage down at a certain point and start over. I think that point differs with couples, and I think it happens over and over again in good relationships. I don't like to talk, so this is difficult for me.
I've tried to be more forthright and ask people with "successful" marriages how they have done it, to find the common factors since my marriage almost ended last spring. I don't know. We haven't been together as long - nine years - but those together longer, such as Susan's marriage, 30 years or more, seemed to say something similar to her. It has to be done again and again. You fall in and out of love in marriage throughout your life. No marriage is really all "that great". (My mother. :) )
I wouldn't over-analyze the depression versus the marriage. If you believe it to have a biological component, you would still have problems with depression despite the marriage. You would feel fine, but would still question the marriage. I did for awhile...
Posted by Kingfish on August 15, 2001, at 19:07:19
In reply to Re: my bags are packed, I am ready to go, posted by Kingfish on August 15, 2001, at 17:49:07
"You would feel fine, but would still question the marriage. I did for awhile..."
I blame the Prozac...
I think I mean that I would keep the depression a separate issue, in mho. I keep trying to say it better, but I can't.
Posted by Greg A. on August 16, 2001, at 10:58:02
In reply to Re: my bags are packed, I am ready to go, posted by Kingfish on August 15, 2001, at 17:49:07
It’s all about communicating isn’t it? At various points in marriages the communication fails. I mean you talk about where the kids have to be and who will pick them up and how much this camp costs and whose friend wants to stay over. But you don’t really talk to your partner. And you change without letting the other person in on it. (and vice versa) What you may have once thought important and made a big part of your life no longer is, or is moved to the back burner. One or the other of the partners may have problems. Alcohol and depression seem to be featured here. But I think, maybe, a lot of the problems have to do with the pressure and demands of a family. For example – I feel trapped in my job. I have a good professional position and have been doing much the same thing for twenty plus years. I hate most of it and yet I am not free to chuck it and try something else. At least I don’t feel I can jeopardize the foundation of the family. Reminds me of Marie’s comment about pursuing our ‘selfish’ wants.
If you go to long without communicating, you forget how. Or it becomes something to be avoided because it raises so many touchy issues. I mean how do you politely say to your spouse ‘I’m sorry but I really don’t find you attractive any more’. Not a good basis for discussion. So you avoid the topic.
I have thought of going to a marriage weekend through the church as well. I am usually very uncomfortable in such situations which is part of why I haven’t signed up but the other part is I am really not sure what I want out of it. Do I want to stay married? If that basic commitment is not there, then how can I go through a weekend of trying to save my marriage? I know – I should do it and see if some of the issues are resolved despite my fears, but it makes a great excuse to do nothing.
My wife told me the other day that she is tired of being shut out and is very lonely. I am not very social and she is. I keep things to myself too much as well. I didn’t respond to her admission but yesterday afternoon I decided to try something. Since I seem to be able to write about my thoughts and emotions much more easily that directly talking about them – I wrote her a letter. Of course I didn’t just want to mail it to her so I phoned her from work and asked her to meet me for coffee. I let her read the letter and then she talked more about what was bothering her and how some of what I had written helped her understand my feelings. As usual I didn’t say much. But it helped. She felt better and so did I. A very slow start to communicating, I suppose, but better than nothing. Much better.
Sorry for the long personal story. But what you guys have said made me think.
“All my bags are packed . . . “ Leavin’ on a Jet Plane” (Peter, Paul and Mary and recently re-done by someone or other that my daughters listen to)
Posted by susan C on August 16, 2001, at 12:48:20
In reply to Re: my bags are packed, I am ready to go, posted by Greg A. on August 16, 2001, at 10:58:02
Hi greg,
It has been a long time since I went to that marriage encounter, but the one thing I remember was you went off by yourself and wrote to your spouse, on a general topic, then, you exchanged notebooks and separately read them and responded..You could later share with the 'group' if you wanted. otherwise the idea was time with sp. It is interesting to me that you did just that as your first step. It sounds like your spouse really loves you and wants to understand. Sometimes I just cant say things either. Sometimes I am angry and it helps to write, so I can see it before I say it. and I appreciate reading something with out my sp being around. Raising kids is hard work. I don't think our culture gives enough respect for those of us who really commit to making a special life for our kids...The other night, before the meds took over and I started mumbling incoherently, I talked to sp about how much we all appreciated his hard work...I talked more and more as I realized i had not told him in a long time, if ever how much his hard work, going to a job each day meant to all of us.
20 years. there are some things to work for. When oldest moved out there was a shuffle of rooms and sp has a room of his own. I will be waiting, but he has spent months making his 'alternative' 'coccon' private space
Just rambling.
Mighty mouse up in the sky with diamonds
> It’s all about communicating isn’t it? At various points in marriages the communication fails. I mean you talk about where the kids have to be and who will pick them up and how much this camp costs and whose friend wants to stay over. But you don’t really talk to your partner. And you change without letting the other person in on it. (and vice versa) What you may have once thought important and made a big part of your life no longer is, or is moved to the back burner. One or the other of the partners may have problems. Alcohol and depression seem to be featured here. But I think, maybe, a lot of the problems have to do with the pressure and demands of a family. For example – I feel trapped in my job. I have a good professional position and have been doing much the same thing for twenty plus years. I hate most of it and yet I am not free to chuck it and try something else. At least I don’t feel I can jeopardize the foundation of the family. Reminds me of Marie’s comment about pursuing our ‘selfish’ wants.
> If you go to long without communicating, you forget how. Or it becomes something to be avoided because it raises so many touchy issues. I mean how do you politely say to your spouse ‘I’m sorry but I really don’t find you attractive any more’. Not a good basis for discussion. So you avoid the topic.
> I have thought of going to a marriage weekend through the church as well. I am usually very uncomfortable in such situations which is part of why I haven’t signed up but the other part is I am really not sure what I want out of it. Do I want to stay married? If that basic commitment is not there, then how can I go through a weekend of trying to save my marriage? I know – I should do it and see if some of the issues are resolved despite my fears, but it makes a great excuse to do nothing.
> My wife told me the other day that she is tired of being shut out and is very lonely. I am not very social and she is. I keep things to myself too much as well. I didn’t respond to her admission but yesterday afternoon I decided to try something. Since I seem to be able to write about my thoughts and emotions much more easily that directly talking about them – I wrote her a letter. Of course I didn’t just want to mail it to her so I phoned her from work and asked her to meet me for coffee. I let her read the letter and then she talked more about what was bothering her and how some of what I had written helped her understand my feelings. As usual I didn’t say much. But it helped. She felt better and so did I. A very slow start to communicating, I suppose, but better than nothing. Much better.
> Sorry for the long personal story. But what you guys have said made me think.
> “All my bags are packed . . . “ Leavin’ on a Jet Plane” (Peter, Paul and Mary and recently re-done by someone or other that my daughters listen to)
Posted by Greg A. on August 16, 2001, at 17:25:47
In reply to Re: my bags are packed, I am ready to go, posted by susan C on August 16, 2001, at 12:48:20
Susan,
Glad to hear that someone thinks I am on the right track with my letter. I know my wife did appreciate it and probably more because I took the time to meet her and listen to her reply.
Notice that I’m the only male in on this discussion about relationships and how hard it is to maintain them. What does that say? My alternate plans if talking to my wife does not help my state of happiness include buying a motorcycle or sports car; having an affair with a girl young enough to be my daughter or getting a satellite dish and watching sports all the time.
Let me know if these too are good ideas. (joking)
Hey Susan – what meds are you on that cause you to crash like you say in the evening? Just curious. I know as a husband, that yours would very much appreciate being told how much it means to have someone who is steady and supportive in an emotional as well as a financial way. You are right about the lack of recognition raising a family gets. I try to be involved in as much of what my two daughters do as possible. Sometimes I think I overdo it, but the time when you can be involved is so short that it’s easy to miss out on it. I know that I am a part of their lives in a big way and that’s one of the biggest satisfactions that I have. My neighbour, whose sons are long grown and gone, confessed one day, upon seeing me returning from soccer practice or something, that he had never spent time with his kids. He was too busy building up his business and when he looked up, they were gone. His sons rarely come home to visit. He was never a part of their lives in a way that really matters.Take care,
Greg
PS What the Mighty Mouse reference to?
Posted by Willow on August 16, 2001, at 19:53:52
In reply to Re: my bags are packed, I am ready to go, posted by Greg A. on August 16, 2001, at 17:25:47
"My neighbour, whose sons are long grown and gone, confessed one day, upon seeing me returning from soccer practice or something, that he had never spent time with his kids. He was too busy building up his business and when he looked up, they were gone. His sons rarely come home to visit."
Greg
You had great timing with this post. I'm at home with my three little ones, youngest probably hyperactive - goes non-stop and talks non-stop ~ people don't understand until they spend a couple hours with him. (My whine for the day.) Anyway with 19 more sleeps till they go back to school and a new medication that made me tense, I started questioning if I would be better off putting my energies into returning to work and thus paying for daycare.
Willow
Posted by susan C on August 16, 2001, at 20:43:50
In reply to Re: my bags are packed, I am ready to go, posted by Greg A. on August 16, 2001, at 17:25:47
> Susan,
>
> Glad to hear that someone thinks I am on the right track with my letter. I know my wife did appreciate it and probably more because I took the time to meet her and listen to her reply.
> Notice that I’m the only male in on this discussion about relationships and how hard it is to maintain them. What does that say? My alternate plans if talking to my wife does not help my state of happiness include buying a motorcycle or sports car; having an affair with a girl young enough to be my daughter or getting a satellite dish and watching sports all the time.
> Let me know if these too are good ideas. (joking)Hi
My first car was an austin Healey. My oldest still berates me for selling it (over 28 years ago, he is 22), though when I brought home his dream car, a miata, for a test drive, he had to admit it didnt fill his requirements, to have enough room for him,(6'3") his computer and girlfriend...When he finally did get a Jetta (the seat goes forward back up and down) it was because he fit in the seat and could carry 4 overweight 6'tall drunk computer jocks. (mother shaking her head)
> Hey Susan – what meds are you on that cause you to crash like you say in the evening? Just curious.
Ambien, Depakote, Keppra (new one) but it is mostly the Ambien. It has been great finally sleeping through the night...but I do tend to babble, so I have to be sure I am in bed and ready to sleep after I have taken it.
>I know as a husband, that yours would very much appreciate being told how much it means to have someone who is steady and supportive in an emotional as well as a financial way. You are right about the lack of recognition raising a family gets. I try to be involved in as much of what my two daughters do as possible. Sometimes I think I overdo it, but the time when you can be involved is so short that it’s easy to miss out on it. I know that I am a part of their lives in a big way and that’s one of the biggest satisfactions that I have. My neighbour, whose sons are long grown and gone, confessed one day, upon seeing me returning from soccer practice or something, that he had never spent time with his kids. He was too busy building up his business and when he looked up, they were gone. His sons rarely come home to visit. He was never a part of their lives in a way that really matters.
Yes, my mom once confessed to me that she had been wrong to critisize me and my hub for the amount of time we devoted to our boys. She said, you were right, they love you very much and turned out to be great people and it is obvious because of your love. Another great thing I learned from her is the saying 'more is caught than taught' when it comes to child rearing.
>
> Take care,
>
> Greg
> PS What the Mighty Mouse reference to?'Here I come to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on the way...'Saturday cartoons in the 50's? A little mouse with a big chest who flies around in tights and a cape like superman saving people in distress. There is a comedian...cant remember his name, that made a big impression of him...now this is going to drive me nuts until I remember the comedian's name...
Cheers
Susan C
Posted by Wendy B. on August 22, 2001, at 15:00:48
In reply to Re: my bags are packed, I am ready to go, posted by Greg A. on August 16, 2001, at 17:25:47
>
> Take care,
>
> Greg
> PS What the Mighty Mouse reference to?
Hi Greg and others,Susan got a new keyboard and (I think) a new mouse, and she started calling herself Mighty Mouse on another thread...
All this talk about kids and divorce is so heart-wrenching... I left my husband when my daughter was 2 and a half yrs old, so she doesn't remember much before that. At the time of the split, she didn't know what Marriage, Family, Divorce, those concepts, really meant. All of you guys with older children, they do know, and you're worried that they might find themselves with Separated or Divorced parents. It could be worse...
Most of the people here are posting that they have found themselves changing, or depressed when the other spouse has not, or alcoholics, etc. But no one is in an abusive relationship, so far, from what I'm hearing. I was, but it's been 6 yrs since I left the hub, and though it wasn't hard on my daughter at the moment of the split, it has been hard shuttling back and forth between her dad's and my houses, she complained bitterly about it when she was younger. Now that she's 9, it's kind of natural to her, every other weekend at dad's.
Of course, he will never forgive me for taking her from him (I am the custodial parent), I had to do it, he was throwing me around. You see, he suffered from obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (not OCD, which is a little different). He would wipe the counters off 20 times, no kidding, when we washed up the kitchen after supper. He dried out every sink in the house with a handi-wipe till it was dry as a bone. If he ever washed his hands, for ex, he would then wipe the sink dry. After showering, he wiped the fucking shower dry. I mean it, this is all true. And he made me wipe it dry too... (I still can't believe I lived for almost 6 yrs with him and did that every day, just to appease him and his sense of what was the right way to clean things!) After every load of wash was done, he would dry out the washing machine! Obviously, you say, this guy was a clean freak... well, it didn't stop there... When vacuuming, he would start at the very back of the house, and work his way out to the front hall, so that he no one would step on the newly vac'ed carpeting, so no footprints would mar it. If I stepped on it cuz I needed to go across it to the bathroom, he would get angry with me, because I didn't care enough about the cleaning he had done... Anger and control were the issues. And then forcing the other person (*moi*) to comply with all the Cleaning Regulations... Impossible!
After the baby came, it got worse, and his symptoms got worse, his cleaning became more intense and he got angrier because he couldn't control his universe enough with the baby making messes, like stepping in her wading pool and getting grass clippings in it... it made him so upset, he emptied it and put it away... When he came home from work (and I had already been at my 40-hr a week job, bringing the baby home from daycare, fed her and put her to bed), the garage door would start to open, and my anxiety would kick up a notch from where it had been already... I loathed to my very soul the sound of that garage door... he would come in, go wash his hands, and then come to the kitchen where I had his dinner ready, and sort of do an inspection of the cupboards. He would 'adjust' piles of plates by a thirty-secondth of an inch, line up the mugs in what he perceived to be their 'order,' blue-green-yellow-red or whatever, whereas I had arranged them whichever way they'd come out of the dishwasher, red-green-yellow-blue. By the time she was two, I'd had it, and told him he was seriously ill, and needed help, and he got crazier, finally throwing me down on to the floor and kicking me, etc. after one of the many fight we had. In a few months, I found a good lawyer, and got out of there, with my child...
I no longer have the stability of a home (we had to sell it), a husband, two incomes, the yard, the next kids that we never had... I figured it was best for my daughter. I didn't want her to grow up thinking that this was the way men and women should relate to each other, didn't want this to be her model. Up to now, I've had a couple of relationships that didn't work out (another story), and I still haven't provided her with a good model. But at least I didn't stay and let her watch me be abused for longer than that... I remember her, this little two-year old girl, after watching us argue, as we did every morning before we went to work, standing there, wagging her finger at her father, saying: "Daddy! You stop shouting at Mommy!"
Enough! The pain and longing expressed in some of these posts has touched me in a way that I cannot tell you... Greg and Marie, I wish you peace. Maybe time will clear up your jumbled thoughts, and everything doesn't have to be decided *right now*. ?? I don't know... You both sound like you have done right by your children, and they are doing well... what about doing right by yourselves?
much care and love,
Wendy
Posted by susan C on August 22, 2001, at 15:33:46
In reply to Re: All my bags are packed, I'm ready to go » Greg A., posted by Wendy B. on August 22, 2001, at 15:00:48
>
> >
> > Take care,
> >
> > Greg
> > PS What the Mighty Mouse reference to?
>
>
>
>
> Hi Greg and others,
>
> Susan got a new keyboard and (I think) a new mouse, and she started calling herself Mighty Mouse on another thread...
>
> All this talk about kids and divorce is so heart-wrenching... I left my husband when my daughter was 2 and a half yrs old, so she doesn't remember much before that. At the time of the split, she didn't know what Marriage, Family, Divorce, those concepts, really meant. All of you guys with older children, they do know, and you're worried that they might find themselves with Separated or Divorced parents. It could be worse...
>
> Most of the people here are posting that they have found themselves changing, or depressed when the other spouse has not, or alcoholics, etc. But no one is in an abusive relationship, so far, from what I'm hearing. I was, but it's been 6 yrs since I left the hub, and though it wasn't hard on my daughter at the moment of the split, it has been hard shuttling back and forth between her dad's and my houses, she complained bitterly about it when she was younger. Now that she's 9, it's kind of natural to her, every other weekend at dad's.
>
> Of course, he will never forgive me for taking her from him (I am the custodial parent), I had to do it, he was throwing me around. You see, he suffered from obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (not OCD, which is a little different). He would wipe the counters off 20 times, no kidding, when we washed up the kitchen after supper. He dried out every sink in the house with a handi-wipe till it was dry as a bone. If he ever washed his hands, for ex, he would then wipe the sink dry. After showering, he wiped the fucking shower dry. I mean it, this is all true. And he made me wipe it dry too... (I still can't believe I lived for almost 6 yrs with him and did that every day, just to appease him and his sense of what was the right way to clean things!) After every load of wash was done, he would dry out the washing machine! Obviously, you say, this guy was a clean freak... well, it didn't stop there... When vacuuming, he would start at the very back of the house, and work his way out to the front hall, so that he no one would step on the newly vac'ed carpeting, so no footprints would mar it. If I stepped on it cuz I needed to go across it to the bathroom, he would get angry with me, because I didn't care enough about the cleaning he had done... Anger and control were the issues. And then forcing the other person (*moi*) to comply with all the Cleaning Regulations... Impossible!
>
> After the baby came, it got worse, and his symptoms got worse, his cleaning became more intense and he got angrier because he couldn't control his universe enough with the baby making messes, like stepping in her wading pool and getting grass clippings in it... it made him so upset, he emptied it and put it away... When he came home from work (and I had already been at my 40-hr a week job, bringing the baby home from daycare, fed her and put her to bed), the garage door would start to open, and my anxiety would kick up a notch from where it had been already... I loathed to my very soul the sound of that garage door... he would come in, go wash his hands, and then come to the kitchen where I had his dinner ready, and sort of do an inspection of the cupboards. He would 'adjust' piles of plates by a thirty-secondth of an inch, line up the mugs in what he perceived to be their 'order,' blue-green-yellow-red or whatever, whereas I had arranged them whichever way they'd come out of the dishwasher, red-green-yellow-blue. By the time she was two, I'd had it, and told him he was seriously ill, and needed help, and he got crazier, finally throwing me down on to the floor and kicking me, etc. after one of the many fight we had. In a few months, I found a good lawyer, and got out of there, with my child...
>
> I no longer have the stability of a home (we had to sell it), a husband, two incomes, the yard, the next kids that we never had... I figured it was best for my daughter. I didn't want her to grow up thinking that this was the way men and women should relate to each other, didn't want this to be her model. Up to now, I've had a couple of relationships that didn't work out (another story), and I still haven't provided her with a good model. But at least I didn't stay and let her watch me be abused for longer than that... I remember her, this little two-year old girl, after watching us argue, as we did every morning before we went to work, standing there, wagging her finger at her father, saying: "Daddy! You stop shouting at Mommy!"
>
> Enough! The pain and longing expressed in some of these posts has touched me in a way that I cannot tell you... Greg and Marie, I wish you peace. Maybe time will clear up your jumbled thoughts, and everything doesn't have to be decided *right now*. ?? I don't know... You both sound like you have done right by your children, and they are doing well... what about doing right by yourselves?
>
> much care and love,
> WendyDear Wendy,
I want to thank you for taking the time and energy to respond and contribute to all of the heart baring talk that this thread has uncovered. I feel, as I read each of our posts, that each of us has challenges and decisions. I know I feel that way about my husband. How can he stay with me, with all the problems I have. How much worse could I be? How would I have acted if I were in a relationship that you just described?
Oh, btw, the keyboard is new, my mouse is old, Mighty Mouse is my childhood Hero..
'here I come to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on the way' and of course Andy Kaufman's imitation...and I just got hand me down speakers and my son's room, the whole place really, vibrates with base from his new speakers, so why do I have any?...and I generally tend to get silly.and some days, some parts of days are just hard to get through, but I look forward to trying to contribute to this site and the challenge to be coherant and supportive.
Mouse under foot
Susan C.
Posted by Marie1 on August 22, 2001, at 18:07:11
In reply to Re: All my bags are packed, I'm ready to go » Greg A., posted by Wendy B. on August 22, 2001, at 15:00:48
Wendy,
Every time I hear a story like yours, I think - thank God this woman had enough respect for herself and her child to leave this marriage. That is such a brave thing to do.
Your story also helps put things into perspective for me. My life is not so bad; things are still "fixable", maybe.
Thanks for sharing, and I hope with all my heart you find someone soon who is worthy of your attention.Marie
Posted by Wendy B. on August 23, 2001, at 11:27:33
In reply to Wendy and her stored suitcases, posted by susan C on August 22, 2001, at 15:33:46
> Dear Wendy,
>
> I want to thank you for taking the time and energy to respond and contribute to all of the heart baring talk that this thread has uncovered. I feel, as I read each of our posts, that each of us has challenges and decisions. I know I feel that way about my husband. How can he stay with me, with all the problems I have. How much worse could I be? How would I have acted if I were in a relationship that you just described?
>
> Oh, btw, the keyboard is new, my mouse is old, Mighty Mouse is my childhood Hero..
> 'here I come to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on the way' and of course Andy Kaufman's imitation...and I just got hand me down speakers and my son's room, the whole place really, vibrates with base from his new speakers, so why do I have any?...and I generally tend to get silly.
>
> and some days, some parts of days are just hard to get through, but I look forward to trying to contribute to this site and the challenge to be coherant and supportive.
>
> Mouse under foot
>
> Susan C.
hi Susan,I tried to IM you on the Psy-Babble Open yesterday afternoon... You had just signed off, I think. Sheesh! Signing on for an e-group is a challenge, to say the least! I didn't know you had to get your own little Yahoo mail thing... just one more idiotic thing to have to clean up after...
Enough ragging. Thank you for the post... I didn't mean from my post, that others should pack it in, or that you or anyone else were too difficult to live with, as with my ex-hub... he had an ESPECIALLY difficult problem (oh, I forgot to mention straightening and combing out the fringes on the rugs...). Living with a depressed person is difficult, yes. But the worst it gets is that they withdraw from you... my ex would actively *come at* me with demands and demarcations and anger and all the rest...
Does depression run in your family? I ask because I've lived with a depressed person (my mom), all of my growing up years... I wonder how many of us could look at it that way... It's PAYBACK time!... Just kidding... Your husband loves you, would he just up and leave if you had heart trouble? Probably not... Maybe you could look at it that way? I dunno, just rambling.
As for the Mighty Mouse thing - I love it! Andy Garcia's riff where he puts it on the turntable and lip-syncs is a trip! I think I saw it in its original on SNL... The '70s are a distant haze, however. They re-played him doing it last year (an anniversary of his death?) when they did some TV tribute to him on SNL or Headliners and Legends or True Hollywood Story, I'm a sucker for all that stuff...
So Mighty Mouse you are! I think it's a hit! It also apparently gives you a little kick to come up with an alter-ego, so that's wonderful... I mean it. Keeping up the humor when we're depressed is *essential*. And you know you're doing better when you can find yourself laughing at some small thing that can just brighten up one small portion of our day. I truly believe that. (although our familes and friends and co-workers might wonder why we're chuckling to ourselves for no apparent reason! We're obviously crazed madwomen!)
Again, thank you so much for your response, it really matters to me.
Your friend,
Wendy
Posted by Wendy B. on August 23, 2001, at 11:32:35
In reply to Re: All my bags are packed, I'm ready to go » Wendy B., posted by Marie1 on August 22, 2001, at 18:07:11
> Wendy,
> Every time I hear a story like yours, I think - thank God this woman had enough respect for herself and her child to leave this marriage. That is such a brave thing to do.
> Your story also helps put things into perspective for me. My life is not so bad; things are still "fixable", maybe.
> Thanks for sharing, and I hope with all my heart you find someone soon who is worthy of your attention.
>
> MarieHi marie,
Thank you so much for your good wishes... I cried when I read it, that someone would read my post and realize how hard it was to get out of that marriage, and how very much I want and need a relationship that is good for me.
I hope you and your husband give your relationship the attention and care and honor that it deserves, and then see what happens... Whatever that is, will be the right thing, I'm sure of it...
Take care of yourself, and love,
Wendy
Posted by susan C on August 23, 2001, at 11:41:33
In reply to Re: Wendy and her stored suitcases » susan C, posted by Wendy B. on August 23, 2001, at 11:27:33
>
> > Dear Wendy,
> >
> > I want to thank you for taking the time and energy to respond and contribute to all of the heart baring talk that this thread has uncovered. I feel, as I read each of our posts, that each of us has challenges and decisions. I know I feel that way about my husband. How can he stay with me, with all the problems I have. How much worse could I be? How would I have acted if I were in a relationship that you just described?
> >
> > Oh, btw, the keyboard is new, my mouse is old, Mighty Mouse is my childhood Hero..
> > 'here I come to save the day, Mighty Mouse is on the way' and of course Andy Kaufman's imitation...and I just got hand me down speakers and my son's room, the whole place really, vibrates with base from his new speakers, so why do I have any?...and I generally tend to get silly.
> >
> > and some days, some parts of days are just hard to get through, but I look forward to trying to contribute to this site and the challenge to be coherant and supportive.
> >
> > Mouse under foot
> >
> > Susan C.
>
>
> hi Susan,
>
> I tried to IM you on the Psy-Babble Open yesterday afternoon... You had just signed off, I think. Sheesh! Signing on for an e-group is a challenge, to say the least! I didn't know you had to get your own little Yahoo mail thing... just one more idiotic thing to have to clean up after...
>
> Enough ragging. Thank you for the post... I didn't mean from my post, that others should pack it in, or that you or anyone else were too difficult to live with, as with my ex-hub... he had an ESPECIALLY difficult problem (oh, I forgot to mention straightening and combing out the fringes on the rugs...). Living with a depressed person is difficult, yes. But the worst it gets is that they withdraw from you... my ex would actively *come at* me with demands and demarcations and anger and all the rest...
>
> Does depression run in your family? I ask because I've lived with a depressed person (my mom), all of my growing up years... I wonder how many of us could look at it that way... It's PAYBACK time!... Just kidding... Your husband loves you, would he just up and leave if you had heart trouble? Probably not... Maybe you could look at it that way? I dunno, just rambling.
>
> As for the Mighty Mouse thing - I love it! Andy Garcia's riff where he puts it on the turntable and lip-syncs is a trip! I think I saw it in its original on SNL... The '70s are a distant haze, however. They re-played him doing it last year (an anniversary of his death?) when they did some TV tribute to him on SNL or Headliners and Legends or True Hollywood Story, I'm a sucker for all that stuff...
>
> So Mighty Mouse you are! I think it's a hit! It also apparently gives you a little kick to come up with an alter-ego, so that's wonderful... I mean it. Keeping up the humor when we're depressed is *essential*. And you know you're doing better when you can find yourself laughing at some small thing that can just brighten up one small portion of our day. I truly believe that. (although our familes and friends and co-workers might wonder why we're chuckling to ourselves for no apparent reason! We're obviously crazed madwomen!)
>
> Again, thank you so much for your response, it really matters to me.
>
> Your friend,
> Wendy
Thank you Wendy, swept me right off my feet with that swing of your articulate verbal broom. And I was hiding in the corner. Thanks for some perspective.A moist eyed mouse
This is the end of the thread.
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