![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 41. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by wishingstar on January 2, 2007, at 16:19:12
I feel bad even posting this because it doesnt have any particular topic or anythings, it's just me whining. I'm sorry. I dont know where else to go.
I'm falling apart. I hurt so bad. I've been on the verge of tears all day and the worst part about it is I know that until I change, this isnt going away. But it's scary and it's hard and most importantly, I dont know how, even if I wanted to.
I saw Ginny this morning. As much as I love Ginny (I really do), it was a waste of time. We talked about my Christmas/birthday, medication, my spoiled brother and how mad he makes me... nothing new. I did get the sense she was trying to push for feelings a little more... for ahwile she pushed and pushed to get me to tell her more about what it feels like to be emotionally removed (as I am when I visit my family) from a situation. I just didnt have an answer. It's fine. It's just... removed. I stupidly assumed that she'd mention the conversation at the end of our last session before Christmas where I said I was feeling like I did with Anne, didnt feel like things were going right, etc. She said that maybe if things didnt work shed help me find a new T who fit better. Hello, abandonment issues. She didnt mention any of that today. I should have, but I didnt. Usually she never lets things go, so maybe she forgot. I dont know. I should have brought it up.
During the session I was telling her I'd stopped taking my meds (my pdoc told me to) and I wanst sure if I wanted to try another one. I tried to tell her that I'm just done.. emotionally I'm just done. I cant try one more thing and have it fail. At least if I'm not trying I'm not failing. It hurts 10 times more to try and fail than to fail because you didnt try. I've failed too many times and I dont have any more energy to put into this anymore.
Until I learn how to say what I want to say and ask for what I need, I'm just screwed. Nothing will get better. And I dont know how. I really, truly dont. I'm not trying to play games. I just dont know what to say. But it hurts so bad. Going to therapy and talking about things that feel so surface level to me makes me feel worse, but that isnt the therapists fault. She cant read my mind and I know that. But I cant do any better. I'm thinking it might be time for a therapy break. I'm thinking about cancelling on Thursday to take some time to think about it (I usually go tues and thurs, but next tues is cancelled too).
I dont know why I'm posting this. There isnt any advice anyone can give me because I know what the answer is. Tell her what I need. Tell her how I'm feeling. No one can help me otherwise. But I cant. I just cant do this anymore.
Posted by Scentedgarden on January 2, 2007, at 16:42:55
In reply to falling apart, posted by wishingstar on January 2, 2007, at 16:19:12
OKAY... today u cant, so decide that YOU CANT .... and get some rest if you can try that....u are free to choose and change your mind.....plz be kind to you...its ok to say ive had enough....relax...maybe try a hot bath....maybe a little cry...and if you can sleep on it...just pick a decision now for example ...to cancel thursday...then see how u feel tomoz...if u dont feel good about canceliing thursday...then just change your mind and go thurs...u are free....be light on yourself....its ok not to know everything today...also its not easy saying everything you want to say, it will happen in its own time...maybe write what u feel you wish ud said today, then if u do go thurs, u got better chance of remembering clearer the stuff u want to say....thanks for sharing how uve been feelig all day....i know that feeling welll. ands i just wanted to say hello, and maybe support you a little if thats kool with u....
SENTEDGAREDN
P.S HAPPY NEW YEAR...
PPS .. A POEM 4 YOU....'WE ARE FREE TO CHOOSE THIS OR THAT....GO OR STAY....LAUGH OR CRY...GIVE OR TAKE...LOVE OR HATE...'
Posted by antigua on January 2, 2007, at 16:58:44
In reply to falling apart, posted by wishingstar on January 2, 2007, at 16:19:12
I know exactly how you feel. I've given up so many times, and gone back and forth about another thousand times. I have taken breaks when I thought we weren't getting anywhere, but when I usually told my T I wanted a break, it brought up something big that I think I was running from. But that's hindsight; always 20/20.
Just try to be nice to yourself. Value yourself. This is so very, very hard and you are very brave, whether you keep going to see your T or not.
It's hard to ride the rollercoaster of feelings over and over again, but they do lessen, I promise you.
take care,
antigua
Posted by muffled on January 2, 2007, at 17:31:06
In reply to falling apart, posted by wishingstar on January 2, 2007, at 16:19:12
Well WS, sorry you feeling so bad :(
I'll throw something out there.
You been burned bad by a T.
Ginny is nice and all, but I wonder if you having a problem bonding with her.
Took me a year to get bonded to my T. Even at that I don't fully trust her, but enough.
So I don't know how tough w/boundaries Ginny is, but my T used to go walking with me (with her dogs!!!). Sometimes we would sit outside on the grass for a session. I tested her quite a bit.(sent nasty faxes etc)
I dressed if full protective regalia(jeans, jeanjacket, ballcap, knife, boots !).
I kept asking her if she was scared of me.(and she, without batting an eyelash, would say, should I be?! LOL!)
Etc, etc, etc.
The road to trust took a while...
So mebbe you just haven't yet got to the point of trust yet with Ginny? Cuz that trust needs to be all of you, not just surface WS. Or you will be still in protective mode.
Just a thot.
Nuther thot I was thinking is mebbe just go 1x/wk only until you do build up the trust...built trust and safety, and coping mechanisms.
Take care,
Keep posting,
Muffled
Posted by wishingstar on January 2, 2007, at 18:00:16
In reply to Re: falling apart » wishingstar, posted by Scentedgarden on January 2, 2007, at 16:42:55
thanks.. im thinking about taking a hot bath tonight and maybe some hot chocolate later.. trying to comfort myself. but the reality of what im doing TO MYSELF just isnt going to go away. I almost feel like it's unfair to comfort myself to make myself feel better about doing something that is crappy to begin with. I'll comfort myself when I stop being such an idiot, but for now I dont feel like I deserve it.
It's not that I dont know what I want to say, or that I forget.. I just dont say it. I cant. I dont know how to talk to her and say what I want her to hear. I know how I feel, but how do you tell someone that? I know that sounds ridiculous, but I just cant do it. I can tell stories and describe and answer questions but none of that hits it.
I think I am going to wait until tomorrow to decide on Thurs like you suggested. Part of me wants to go, but the big part of me knows it wont matter and I'll probably feel worse, so I'm just not sure.
I do appreciate the support. thank you. im sorry im being so negative. The support does help.
Posted by wishingstar on January 2, 2007, at 18:05:23
In reply to Re: falling apart » wishingstar, posted by antigua on January 2, 2007, at 16:58:44
Yes, it's definitely easy to run when things get hard. I know that pattern well too. Although I dont think that is what's happening now. I think I'm just stuck, and I dont know how to help me and she cant help me. I'm just stuck.
The thing is, I know I'm not being brave. If I was trying hard and having hard sessions and working I'd be proud of myself, even if it wasnt perfect. But I'm not doing anything at all. I'm going, telling stories, pretending things are better than they are (even though it's not on purpose), and going home. I really dont think I should be proud of myself for any of this. I know I'm smart, I've done therapy for a long time, and this is just bullsh*t on my part. It has got to stop. I feel like I'm wasting everyones time. It is very hard though, I'll give you that!
I'm sorry if this isnt particularly coherent tonight. I'm just a mess.. although externally, you'd never know it. As usual.
Thank you for your support. It means a whole lot to me.
Posted by wishingstar on January 2, 2007, at 18:13:53
In reply to Re: falling apart » wishingstar, posted by muffled on January 2, 2007, at 17:31:06
Hi muffled.. thanks for responding.
I'm definitely having trouble bonding with Ginny. No question about it. I wrote a week or so ago about not feeling connected, but today... there was really just nothing. I felt uncomfortable even talking to her. It's just not there. You're probably right that it has something to do with Anne and the bad situation there. But lately I'm wondering if maybe I had more responsibility in what went wrong than I've previously been admitting. Either way she wasnt perfect, but I wonder how much of what happened was because I set her up for it. I dont know.
Ginny has fairly loose boundaries. She tells me about her kids and we talk about general life stuff occasionally. She'd probably go for a walk if I asked her. I dont know. It isnt really the greatest area for a walk though.. just a bunch of medical offices on a pretty busy road.
This may sound odd, but I wish I could do what you did. I wish I could at least send mean faxes or dress in a way that expressed something or anything at all. Instead, I show up and act all friendly and enjoyable no matter how badly I'm feeling. I cant stop. I ask her about her kids. She told me they went to Chuck-e-cheese last week. I'm happy for them. But internally I'm just falling apart and even though I sometimes say that in intellectual words, there is never any emotion in the room. Sorry, rambling.
I'm afraid that trust isnt building. I feel like we're at a stand-still. I think the way I do things leads therapists to think everything is working well, and even when I verbally say it isnt, the point doesnt always come across. The depth of it never comes out. I dont know how to let it out. I'm afraid if I only went once a week I'd pull even further away.
And now we're at this place where it almost feels too late to say "wait, you missed this HUGE thing". Like when you dont know someones name after a few meetings and it's too late to ask comfortably, you know? I know that isnt logically true in therapy, but it feels that way.
thank you for your thoughts muffled. im sorry to ramble.
Posted by TherapyGirl on January 2, 2007, at 18:52:07
In reply to Re: falling apart » Scentedgarden, posted by wishingstar on January 2, 2007, at 18:00:16
How about writing what you can't say? Because you are articulate and eloquent in your writings on Babble. Either share them with her or take copies of a journal or something to try to get over this hump. I think it's very, very important for you to try to do things differently right here right now. And I know it feels impossible, but a lot of that is the depression talking. If you can shut it up (the depression, that is) for a few minutes, I think you might be able to start moving forward again.
Please try, okay?
((((((((((((((WS))))))))))
Posted by Poet on January 2, 2007, at 19:11:33
In reply to falling apart, posted by wishingstar on January 2, 2007, at 16:19:12
Hi Wishingstar,
My therapist has told me more than once that she can't read my mind and that I need to tell her what I'm feeling.
Try writing to Ginny. For me, it's so much easier to write than to look my T in the eye and talk. You can always do the drop and dash like I do: hand it to her as you run out the door.
Good luck.
Poet
Posted by Scentedgarden on January 2, 2007, at 19:22:04
In reply to Re: falling apart » Scentedgarden, posted by wishingstar on January 2, 2007, at 18:00:16
> thanks.. im thinking about taking a hot bath tonight and maybe some hot chocolate later..
I just had one and it was nice..hope you do it too...
trying to comfort myself. but the reality of what im doing TO MYSELF just isnt going to go away. I almost feel like it's unfair to comfort myself to make myself feel better about doing something that is crappy to begin with. I'll comfort myself when I stop being such an idiot, but for now I dont feel like I deserve it.okay..so even if u just think about laying in a hot bath and drink your hot choc...its a start....i know it can be so hard to love ourselves when we dont know how...do myou have any cuddly toys you can snuggle in to..? Hope thats not taken as a childish thing...i mean it with all the respect in the whole world ...
>
> It's not that I dont know what I want to say, or that I forget.. I just dont say it. I cant. I dont know how to talk to her and say what I want her to hear. I know how I feel, but how do you tell someone that? I know that sounds ridiculous, but I just cant do it. I can tell stories and describe and answer questions but none of that hits it.What is it you want to say? pretend im her and you only have five mins to tell me...what would you say../ Oay maybe thsats a silly question or way for me to put it....sorry lol
but seriously..you say ''i know how i feel, but how do you tell someone that?''
well id just say, listen dr. x ive given this considerablwe thought and i ahve decided id like to spend 5 mins before i forget this session to stell you that....XXXXXXXX and you just tell her how you feel..
are you scared? if so what scarfes you about telling her howw u feel...? but if youre not scared and just dont know how to tell her...maybe you could tell her exactly that....Listen dr x ( sorry i dont know your t's name) ...i dont know how to tell you this , but, this is how i feellll..'''
and give it a go maybe see how it goes...whats the worst that can happen...you sure as GOd cant feel any worse than you did all day today...right!...you won be going away having ONLY skimmed the surface..and kicking yourselff....I do empathise ,as i know, ive done it and i still do it...so your not on your own...
theraoy is hard and all this is part of the hard stuff...you even telling her how you feel is hard...maybe noone encouraged you to share your feelings growing up...so people like us dont know how tyo do it as its alien..thats why we go to therapist...so we can practice these skills with a trained psychologist....sorry im not patronising you really im not...
>
> I think I am going to wait until tomorrow to decide on Thurs like you suggested. Part of me wants to go, but the big part of me knows it wont matter and I'll probably feel worse, so I'm just not sure.great idea...as scarlett o'hara said at the end of gone with the wind...after all tomorrow is another day..'' okay so that may not apply totally but it still is a new day...
i also know that split feeling should i stay home or should i go see her...? part wants to so much and part does not want to..my experience is the part the wants to is the healthy part...
>
> I do appreciate the support. thank you. im sorry im being so negative. The support does help.
lol....haha honestly who cares if you're being negative right now...its okay...if thats how you fel just be negative..i really dont mind...i can see your really struggling with this ....so please no need to apologise, next time...but i will acccept your lovely apolgy thjis time...just to make you feel beter..lol....now get the milk on for that hot choc...and dream of the running water filling the hot tub...
May God bless you with peace tonight...peace just to not have to think anymore about this just now...na night... it's 1.20 am here in the uk...
scented garedn
Posted by Scentedgarden on January 2, 2007, at 19:38:40
In reply to Re: falling apart » wishingstar, posted by Scentedgarden on January 2, 2007, at 19:22:04
if u plz can i add one more thing b4 i switch off laptop...
i think what you wrote to Muffled in this thread , is absolutely exactly just what you need to let her see, read, or hear...you have said it all in that...
and lastly this time....i promise...i also sense you will do it when you are fed up with yourself not doing it...
a you know deep down or you think you know thaqt ur not putting in the work...and youre being like a pal to her just chatting about her kids and cheese parties...I thought it was so funny in a kool way when u said ..she'd probably go for a wlk if i asked her to...sorry but im still laughing about that....tho its probably just my simple sense of humour...but i can just picture u outside with her walking atround the area you describe ...and just like 2 people chatting away shooting the breeze and not hurting each other or saying anyhting to rock the boat...
I think in a way its best if a t does NOT discuss her family for this simple reason that you describe here..as you are taking up vauable time that you probably pay ggod money for to hear about her own life... many others would die for such loose boundaries, but then we always think the grass is greener...
youre a highly intelligent woman ws....you can do this...but not before the bath and choc...and a peaceful rest from churning it over..give your brain a holiday ...lol...
if i dont hear from you be thursday....i will be thinking of you...anyone with aname like wishiong star has to be a super star...!!! its a kool name you know..! I wish you well shinning STAR *
SG
Posted by muffled on January 2, 2007, at 20:15:19
In reply to Re: falling apart » muffled, posted by wishingstar on January 2, 2007, at 18:13:53
> I'm definitely having trouble bonding with Ginny. No question about it. I felt uncomfortable even talking to her.
**Well, if its any consolation I STILL feel uncomfortable talking to my T unless its surface stuff. I just not good at talking bout myself, makes me EXTREEMLY uncomfortable. I rarely even look at her. Everyonce in awhile she gets me to sorta look at her or take off my hat, but mostly she doesn't, cuz I think she feels like she torturing me or something!
>You're probably right that it has something to do with Anne and the bad situation there.
*Maybe in part, its also proly bout lifelong trust issues...
>Either way she wasnt perfect, but I wonder how much of what happened was because I set her up for it. I dont know.
**Maybe, maybe not, but she was supposed to be a trained T, I think she could have handled things better...
>
> Ginny has fairly loose boundaries. She tells me about her kids and we talk about general life stuff occasionally. She'd probably go for a walk if I asked her. I dont know. It isnt really the greatest area for a walk though.. just a bunch of medical offices on a pretty busy road.**I met my T at a special place I like to walk, and we walked there. Though we also go for walks in the neighborhood too. Sometimes my T drives us to a nearby park to walk.
>
> This may sound odd, but I wish I could do what you did. I wish I could at least send mean faxes or dress in a way that expressed something or anything at all.*Well, you COULD send mean faxes!!! Thats the joy of faxes, so EASY to send, then GACK!!! Too late!!!!Or do Poets fling and dash method.....
Hate to say it, but I actually dress that way most of the time....and I have ALWAYS packed a knife since I was very young.
Mebbe you could dye your hair a wild color? Just semipermanent?>Instead, I show up and act all friendly and enjoyable no matter how badly I'm feeling.
**HEY! Thats what I do!!! My T says how was your week, I ALWAYS say 'fine', and just sit there....
>I cant stop. I ask her about her kids. She told me they went to Chuck-e-cheese last week. I'm happy for them.
**Ahhh, another of my ploys.....getting my T to talk bout OTHER stuff, so I don't got to talk bout me! One glorious session I got her talking bout something for damn near the whole session!!!ROFL! She saw the time and I was just SMILING away!!!LOL!
But more recently I been 'chatting' very little, and either saying nothing, or not a whole lot. My poor T has to work SO hard.>But internally I'm just falling apart and even though I sometimes say that in intellectual words, there is never any emotion in the room. Sorry, rambling.
**Well I rarely show emotion, other than fear I guess...I never ever cry. I won't get mad at her to her face either.
I just keep sending crazy faxes which she sometimes 'gets', and sometimes doesn't. Though nowadays she does 'get' them more.
I am not allowed to show weakness, so mebbe its partly due to that for me. Emotions=weakness to me.
>
> I'm afraid that trust isnt building. I feel like we're at a stand-still. I think the way I do things leads therapists to think everything is working well, and even when I verbally say it isnt, the point doesnt always come across. The depth of it never comes out. I dont know how to let it out. I'm afraid if I only went once a week I'd pull even further away.**What I was thinking with the once a week thing, was to take some prssure of yourself and your T to 'perform' up to some invisible standard. Just ease up a bit and take some time to form a stronger relationship with your T, cuz you haven't known her for that long.
My T used to miss what I was saying in my faxes ALL THE TIME. I couldn't understand how she could not understand...
But apparently communication is more than wordsa, its body language and tone too, even more so than words. But my T is finally seeming to understand my words better. And we work with what I have written, rather than try and have me say a whole tone right there, cuz I just CAN'T.
>
> And now we're at this place where it almost feels too late to say "wait, you missed this HUGE thing". Like when you dont know someones name after a few meetings and it's too late to ask comfortably, you know? I know that isnt logically true in therapy, but it feels that way.
>
**But its not too late WS. Not at all. My T actually don't know alot of stuff, even stuff I have written, cuz she's just not understood. But its getting better. Its just taken us this long time to develop some amt of trust, and understand each others very different communication styles.
What would be a way that you could 'test your T' that would work for you?
Or mebbe you already have?
I'm sure there's lots of ways.
Mine just happen to be particularly childish.
Now I'm the rambler!!!!
Hope you feel a little better. You situation does not seem strange to me at all. I think you just need to give it some time. Give yourself a break!
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by wishingstar on January 2, 2007, at 22:05:09
In reply to Re: falling apart » wishingstar, posted by Scentedgarden on January 2, 2007, at 19:22:04
Thanks for the comments.. please dont apologize for saying more things. They really do help. I like hearing anything you have to say.
It's funny, because I keep saying I know how I feel, and I do... but at the same time, I dont. I guess maybe the real problem is I dont know how to put it into coherent words outside my head. I think before I go to bed tonight I am going to write a note to nobody and try to say all the things I'm feeling. And maybe that'll help me get it together a little more. Part of me is scared to tell her... saying anything emotional is just SO far outside my entire life experiences up until this point. You're right, feelings were definitely not expressed as I was growing up. I dont know what I'm afraid of though. I trust her to handle it well...
I wanted to add also.. we dont really spend a lot of time talking about her or her family. I think that came out wrong. It's just passing comments here and there, maybe 2 min per session tops. I appreciate that she's that open with me. It makes her feel more like a real person.
I didnt take a bath, but I did have some hot chocolate and watch some tv. I'm going to bed soon. It's 11pm here.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Posted by wishingstar on January 2, 2007, at 22:13:35
In reply to Re: falling apart » wishingstar, posted by muffled on January 2, 2007, at 20:15:19
We should share tricks sometime... :) just kidding. Sounds like we do a lot of the same self-defeating things.
I expect therapy to be uncomfortable.. in fact, I dont feel lke I'm working if it's comfortable all the time. I guess what I meant about today was just about the connection... I felt like I was talking to some stranger on the streets. That kind of uncomfortable. It's because I'm shutting down and pushing her away. I know that for sure.
And yes, youre definitely right that it's lifelong trust issues, not just Anne. I was neglected growing up and have some serious issues with abandonment by my parents. It's a big theme for me.
I'm thinking a little bit about calling and leaving a message and just saying she doenst need to call me back, it's not a crisis, but that I'm not okay at all. Just a few sentences. Enough that I know it'll come up on Thurs and I wont be able to back out of it. I'm going to decide tomorrow morning. I get scared to do things like that though because I did it with anne a few times and she always told me it was wrong... I dont know.
Ginny would just die if I showed up with bright colored hair. I'm pretty conservative in clothing, hair, etc... I've never worn makeup in my life!
I'm okay with taking time and waiting for a relationship to form. But I guess my fear is... I can feel her forming ideas in her head, putting things together, feeling like shes getting it.. I can feel the relationship from her end and I'm acting as a player in it.. but I'm not feeling it. It's an act. I have to be friendly and sociable because thats how I always am in public, and I think I'm fooling her. But I dont know how to stop. Maybe that very thing is the real problem.
I know Ginny is a good therapist, and I know she'll be there when I need her. She has made many offers to be there outside sessions - even over christmas if I needed her for a phone call. She has given me every reason in the world to trust her. I wouldnt know how to test her even if I wanted to.
I think I'm just going to have to leave a message before Thurs. I think that's the best. Put myself in a situation I cant talk my way out of in the moment. Ahhhh.
Posted by wishingstar on January 2, 2007, at 22:17:27
In reply to Re: falling apart » wishingstar, posted by TherapyGirl on January 2, 2007, at 18:52:07
I know she cant read my mind.. and that's exactly why I'm so angry with myself. I'm not upset with her for not getting it, because I know I'm not providing anything for her to "get". But I am very upset with myself for not providing it. I'm hurting so bad and it's all my fault. Shes there and ready to care, if I'll just let her, but instead I just sit around and hurt and wish someone was hearing me. That;s the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
I've been thinking about this more this evening and I think I do need to write her a note. Thank you for the compliement on my writing therapygirl, although I dont feel elogent.. I feel all over the place and whiny. Oh well. As I mentioned in another reply, I think I may leave her a very brief voicemail saying that even thouhg it's not an emergency and she doesnt need to call back, I just wanted to tell her that I'm really not okay and I need her help. And then on Thurs there's no way I can back out of talking. I cant change my mind at the last second. I'm going to wait until the morning to decide, but I'll let you know if I do it.
Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate it.
Posted by muffled on January 2, 2007, at 23:09:15
In reply to Re: falling apart » muffled, posted by wishingstar on January 2, 2007, at 22:13:35
I guess what I meant about today was just about the connection... I felt like I was talking to some stranger on the streets. That kind of uncomfortable. It's because I'm shutting down and pushing her away. I know that for sure.
:( My T used an analogy once, that I have a bunch of coats on to keep me safe, and in T, I take some coats off now and again, but then i freak, and put them all back on again...
I dunno, I know I have had that sort of feeling with my T.
Separating myself from her.
To the point where I could think to myself that I truly wouldn't care if I never saw her again, if fact she is kind of annoying, and I don't even like her...etc
But I want to be well...and so i go back...
> I'm thinking a little bit about calling and leaving a message and just saying she doenst need to call me back, it's not a crisis, but that I'm not okay at all. Just a few sentences. Enough that I know it'll come up on Thurs and I wont be able to back out of it. I'm going to decide tomorrow morning. I get scared to do things like that though because I did it with anne a few times and she always told me it was wrong... I dont know.**Wrong for what reason?
But I like the part where you can't back out of it!!!!
Man, I have done that sort of thing a few times, and there's times my T has utterly missed the whole point entirely! So don't expect miracles....
>
> Ginny would just die if I showed up with bright colored hair. I'm pretty conservative in clothing, hair, etc... I've never worn makeup in my life!*is there a secondhand clothing store around your area? Mebbe you could put together a 'power' outfit for yourself! It would be fun! Or go to one of those places where you can get realistic fake tatoos! WTF eh!!
>
> I'm okay with taking time and waiting for a relationship to form. But I guess my fear is... I can feel her forming ideas in her head, putting things together, feeling like shes getting it.. I can feel the relationship from her end and I'm acting as a player in it.. but I'm not feeling it. It's an act. I have to be friendly and sociable because thats how I always am in public, and I think I'm fooling her. But I dont know how to stop. Maybe that very thing is the real problem.**I started out that way in T. But now I just act really weird.
Yeah, breaking free. Hmmm. Trying to think of a way out of this....mebbe take her this very post, its actually quite a good one. I have done that.
Does your t have a secure fax or e-mail?
>
> I know Ginny is a good therapist, and I know she'll be there when I need her. She has made many offers to be there outside sessions - even over christmas if I needed her for a phone call. She has given me every reason in the world to trust her. I wouldnt know how to test her even if I wanted to.**Shes given you every reason to trust her........
But for people like us....its NOT ENOUGH. No way is it enough. For me, thats where the testing helped alot. I think testing can take the form of you thinking of a very pointed question to ask your T, and seeing if she is honest with you about it. I think I asked my T on the phone if I was a pain in the *ss. It was hard to say, but I blurted it. She didn't say no! LOL!!!! She said I could be a challenge....hmmmm. I squeezed her on that one some!LOL! Actually it was hard and hurtful at the time, but by working thru it, there was some trust built.
And one time I did actually make her mad (not that she will EVER admit it), and it was scarey, but we worked that out mostly too, and more trust was built.
And I called her a DB in a fax and she called it manipulative(she may have been somewhat peeved bout that one too!). And there was hurt feelings, and fear. But she still didn't dump me. We worked thru it. And more trust was built....
So I guess the thing is, that for me, it all very well and good for a T to talk the talk, but she got to WALK the WALK, before I can trust at all. AND I got to see it thru my OWN eyes as it were. No second hand stuff.
>
> I think I'm just going to have to leave a message before Thurs. I think that's the best. Put myself in a situation I cant talk my way out of in the moment. Ahhhh.**Ya you go girl!
Pretend your muffled!
You can even weird her out and say, 'this is muffled...oooops! And then say your thing!
Really, you goto pity my poor T. LOL! Actually she just melts me. She's nice. Hell, she puts up w/me!
Mebbe I should think on this and write a book 'how to test your T-101 ways" LOL.
Take care, I having fun, but I know its hard, just sometimes thats how I can do stuff, i make like its a big joke and just do it....sometimes it works..
Muffled
Posted by wishingstar on January 3, 2007, at 10:16:18
In reply to Re: falling apart » wishingstar, posted by muffled on January 2, 2007, at 23:09:15
>
> :( My T used an analogy once, that I have a bunch of coats on to keep me safe, and in T, I take some coats off now and again, but then i freak, and put them all back on again...
> I dunno, I know I have had that sort of feeling with my T.
> Separating myself from her.
> To the point where I could think to myself that I truly wouldn't care if I never saw her again, if fact she is kind of annoying, and I don't even like her...etc
> But I want to be well...and so i go back...
>****Sorry to misunderstand what you were saying about the connection.. sounds like we're talking about the same thing. Not fun. I like her coat analogy. Only I never take any off. And sometimes I even bring extras to share with the other therapists wandering around (they recognize me, it a small center) and even Ginny! Have to be friendly, right? :) Can you tell me why you think you keep going back? Even when you feel like you dont care either way, dont like her, etc? I just ask because I'm feeling the same way, and maybe knowing why you do will help me to be able to as well.
>
> **Wrong for what reason?
> But I like the part where you can't back out of it!!!!
> Man, I have done that sort of thing a few times, and there's times my T has utterly missed the whole point entirely! So don't expect miracles....****** As for why it's wrong... I still dont really know. You'd have to ask Anne. It didnt feel wrong and I wasnt trying to be manipulative or anything, but she told me I was wanting her to do all the work. These wernt notes that were mean to her, telling her she HAD to do anything.. just notes about how desperate I was feeling. Laurie used to say she was proud of me and happy I gave her notes like that. But I'm afraid to do it. They never were miracles with Laurie, you're right. But it always at least introduced the topic and made it easier to talk about.
> Does your t have a secure fax or e-mail?
****Not that I know of. Truthfully, I'm too scared to ask. Because then it's like I'm saying "there is a lot I want to say" and even that is scary for me. That's how deep this goes. Hah!
> >
>
> **Shes given you every reason to trust her........
> But for people like us....its NOT ENOUGH. No way is it enough. For me, thats where the testing helped alot. I think testing can take the form of you thinking of a very pointed question to ask your T, and seeing if she is honest with you about it. I think I asked my T on the phone if I was a pain in the *ss. It was hard to say, but I blurted it. She didn't say no! LOL!!!! She said I could be a challenge....hmmmm. I squeezed her on that one some!LOL! Actually it was hard and hurtful at the time, but by working thru it, there was some trust built.
> And one time I did actually make her mad (not that she will EVER admit it), and it was scarey, but we worked that out mostly too, and more trust was built.
> And I called her a DB in a fax and she called it manipulative(she may have been somewhat peeved bout that one too!). And there was hurt feelings, and fear. But she still didn't dump me. We worked thru it. And more trust was built....
> So I guess the thing is, that for me, it all very well and good for a T to talk the talk, but she got to WALK the WALK, before I can trust at all. AND I got to see it thru my OWN eyes as it were. No second hand stuff.
> >
*****What you wrote about testing really made me think. I'm not much of a "tester" myself and I really do believe she'd be honest with me if I asked her a hard quesiton. When she talked to Anne on the phone, she told me exactly what Anne said.. who knows if she left things out, but she did tell me a lot of thnigs that were hard to hear because she knew I wanted to know. But I do think things need to be shaken up a bit.Maybe I will write that book! Only $19.95 hardcover. Do you think Dr Bob will post a link to it up with the other books? Haha just kidding... I do get your humor. It does help to be able to laugh about these things with people who get it.
Thanks again for all your thoughts. I havent called her yet but I am thinking about it still.
Posted by wishingstar on January 3, 2007, at 10:22:06
In reply to falling apart, posted by wishingstar on January 2, 2007, at 16:19:12
I just realized the difference between Ginny or Anne or anyone, and Laurie. It's never been quite as hard for me to be emotional and real with Laurie as with others and I'd wondered why for a long time.. Ginny has asked me why.. but I just couldnt say. I realized that Ginny conducts sessions almost completey in questions, where Laurie uses many, many more statements than questions. Just a difference of "did that feel hurtful to you" versus "..and that was really hurtful" at the end of some story or something. It seems so minor but our brains are so complex that I think I'm tricking myself into staying congitive with questions. I'm making it into an interview, not a conversation. I really do think that's it.
Now that I've realized that, it helps.. but I'm still left with the same problem. Learning to be emotional and real in this relationship. Because that's as good a lesson as any other probably.
Posted by muffled on January 3, 2007, at 10:43:46
In reply to I just realized the difference, posted by wishingstar on January 3, 2007, at 10:22:06
> I realized that Ginny conducts sessions almost completey in questions, where Laurie uses many, many more statements than questions. Just a difference of "did that feel hurtful to you" versus "..and that was really hurtful" at the end of some story or something. I'm making it into an interview, not a conversation.
> Now that I've realized that, it helps.. but I'm still left with the same problem. Learning to be emotional and real in this relationship. Because that's as good a lesson as any other probably.**Yay Wishy! This is the stuff that helps! Little things lead to more!
My T sometimes asks questions, and I feel interrogated when she does that. She does it occasionally I guess when she is trying to figure a particular thing out.I'm not exactly verbose... Fortunately she doesn't do it often.
The other thing my T will do is say, 'that must have been hurtful' and she will follow it up with, 'am I right?'. I guess she doesn't want to put words in my mouth.
I am being more real with my T, but not yet emotional.
IMO I think it comes down to 'style' of therapy. And you two are still needing to work out what works best for you and Ginny. Me and my T are STILL working on that, but its definately getting better.
I still think alot of the problem of being able to be real and emotional still comes down to the trust thing.
Its such a huge thing for so many of us who have been burned in our formative years....so its not a strange thing, but its SO ingrained and hard to get by.
Thats where writing helps me. Stuff that there's NO way I could ever say to her(just about ANYthing really)I can type on my computer. Then I read it mebbe 100x, then I just send it.....
Works for me. I truly don't know how else I'd do it. I want help, but I just CAN'T say it to her face, I get all dissociated and lots and confused and paralyzed with fear.
So I think you figgering good stuff.
I still think it would be useful for you to print out this thread and take it to your T for educational purposes.
I think it would help her to help you.
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by pegasus on January 3, 2007, at 10:48:11
In reply to I just realized the difference, posted by wishingstar on January 3, 2007, at 10:22:06
That's a great insight. I agree that when someone makes a statement, it seems more like they get it. Especially when they make it in a really empathetic manner, and the statement is correct. ;) When there is nothing but questions, it can seem like they're having trouble understanding, or accepting what you're saying. Of course, questions have their place. But this is a really subtle and powerful thing to realize. I hope it helps your therapy with Ginny a lot.
peg
Posted by muffled on January 3, 2007, at 11:25:56
In reply to Re: falling apart, posted by wishingstar on January 3, 2007, at 10:16:18
> Not fun. I like her coat analogy. Only I never take any off. And sometimes I even bring extras to share with the other therapists wandering around (they recognize me, it a small center) and even Ginny! Have to be friendly, right? :) Can you tell me why you think you keep going back? Even when you feel like you dont care either way, dont like her, etc? I just ask because I'm feeling the same way, and maybe knowing why you do will help me to be able to as well.
***ROFL!!! Oh MAN WS! You got a bad case of coatitis!!! I never even thot of sharing extras!!!!LOL!!You made me laugh there!!!
I go back, because while my T has her flaws, I DO feel she cares....not to say I fully trust her, but I think she does care some. I also feel that I will be able to work with her. She seems to be very willing to try stuff. She seems she not a quitter. I dunno, I saying this my from my perspective NOW. Hmmm, awhile back, mebbe it was partly a case of I just wanted to get better. I was sick of feeling the way I did, I felt my life was just wasting away, and I wasn't being a healthy Mom. So I went back because, partly I was scared to try and find a new T. It was SO hard to say(or send) as much to my T as I had. I went back, cuz even though my T didn't seem so great cuz she just SO didn't "get ' me, she seemed so willing to try. I went back cuz I was scared and desparate and didn't know what else to do.....
And its working out.
My T is human and has failed me at times, but mostly she doing OK. I am a challenging client, and she has not given up on me. She is so willing to try anything if she thinks it will help. She is a very kind person. She is as honest as she is able to be with me..lol!(sometimes I can just hear her brain squeaking when she trying to find the right words to say something in the 'right' way when I have asked her a pointed question!!!!)But when it comes down to the crunch, she seems to be honest, even if its said in 'careful' terms!> ****** As for why it's wrong... I still dont really know. You'd have to ask Anne. It didnt feel wrong and I wasnt trying to be manipulative or anything, but she told me I was wanting her to do all the work. These wernt notes that were mean to her, telling her she HAD to do anything.. just notes about how desperate I was feeling. Laurie used to say she was proud of me and happy I gave her notes like that. But I'm afraid to do it. They never were miracles with Laurie, you're right. But it always at least introduced the topic and made it easier to talk about.
**exactly. Well said. I think Anne has her own stuff and it got in the way :(
> ****Not that I know of. Truthfully, I'm too scared to ask. Because then it's like I'm saying "there is a lot I want to say" and even that is scary for me. That's how deep this goes. Hah!
Hah! :( Yeah, I know. I still think Poets fling and run thing might work for you. Seriously. Print out this thread and as you leave, just hand it to her(or plunk it on her desk) and literally run out the door.
I sometimes will have paper in my hand , but can't bring myself to give it to T. She has learned to ask if she see's paper in my hand....> *****What you wrote about testing really made me think. But I do think things need to be shaken up a bit.
**Again, good wording. Its when things get shaken up a bit that the relationship w/mt T improves...
Mebbe you could bring out the kid in you and make it a game to see if you can get T to be surprized bout something?...(like clothes, or blurt something...)
>
> Maybe I will write that book! Only $19.95 hardcover. Do you think Dr Bob will post a link to it up with the other books?**Hey! You goto share the proceeds!!!
> I havent called her yet but I am thinking about it still.
>
** I wish you would...think of it as the first step in the 'shake up!'.
Mebbe commit yourself by saying on the message that your going to bring some papers and she needs to ASK you for them and don't take no for an answer!
That'd proly shock her :)! LOL.
Its funny, stuff that we think is so hard, if you can just say to your self I am going to do this ONE thing, just keep working at getting your mind around it. Just keep telling yourself, I can do this one thing. Totally psych yourself ready to do it. And mebbe you will, and mebbe you won't, either way its OK. Just keep trying is all.
I KNOW you can do it WS. Its just a matter of WHEN.
Take care,
I'm rather long winded aren't I?
Proly talking to myself as much as you!
Muffled
Posted by Scentedgarden on January 3, 2007, at 12:48:53
In reply to Re: I just realized the difference, posted by pegasus on January 3, 2007, at 10:48:11
I agree with peg, and muff....this is a huge realisation...and one i never thought about before...I also dont respond well to Q's at ll from my T....an latelt she has said more of the empathic satements...this is a good therapist skill, and i'm glad you have figured this out...WOW
thanks for your kind words to me earlier...about always being interested in what i had to share with you...glad you had the hot choc....hope you're feeling better today..
My best wishes for tomoz...hope its a great session for you...one you come away from feeling satified with yourself...and smiling...
take care.
Scentedgarden
Posted by wishingstar on January 3, 2007, at 13:06:38
In reply to Re: I just realized the difference » wishingstar, posted by muffled on January 3, 2007, at 10:43:46
Thanks for your comments everyone... it just popped into my brain last night and seemed so obvious. How did I not see it before? I guess my subconscious had been working on it for awhile. In fact, I think in many ways that was what I struggled to tell Anne for awhile too. Oh well. I'm going to try to tell Ginny that tomorrow, but it wont be easy. I feel really bad comparing or telling anyone what to do. I got criticized for that by Anne too, and of course my lovely family which is a whole different story. Oh well. I'm glad I realized it. Thanks everyone.
Unfortunatley no better today. I slept in until 10:30 (its 2:00 here now) and was okay for a bit, but I've crashed again. I feel absolutely horrible. I'm about to go lay down on my couch and stare at the tv for awhile, altohugh I probably wont be taking a lot in. I've been considering calling Ginny too but right now, dumb as this sounds, I dont know what to say if I leave a message. I really dont. So I'm working on it I guess. I see her and my pdoc tomorrow.
thanks everyone. you all are the best.
Posted by TherapyGirl on January 3, 2007, at 17:30:07
In reply to Re: falling apart - poet and therapygirl, posted by wishingstar on January 2, 2007, at 22:17:27
I like your idea about leaving her the voice mail. I also used to have to "trick" myself into talking. Still do sometimes. I wrote things for years and years -- it was the only way I could pass information along to her. But then I got into this thing where the harder it was to write or talk about something, the harder it was to actually hand it to her. So we made a deal that I hand her whatever I've written as soon as I walk in the door, but she won't read it until I say, "O.K."
I'm not suggesting that this will work for you, but I am suggesting you put some thought into ways you can trick yourself to open up more. :-)
Posted by wishingstar on January 3, 2007, at 18:05:28
In reply to Re: falling apart - poet and therapygirl » wishingstar, posted by TherapyGirl on January 3, 2007, at 17:30:07
Well I left her a voicemail. I told her that I was very hesitant to leave it because Anne would have been mad at me for doing so and I didnt know how shed react. I said that I really wanted to cancel for tomorrow and I wasnt going to but I wanted her to know I was feeling that way, and I knew I wouldnt be honest and say it tomorrow, so I wanted to tell her in a message etc etc. I said I'm not feeling very connected and it isnt her fault, it's something I'm doing to myself, but its not good. And that was basically it because the message ran out of time.. it only gives you like 30 seconds. So we'll see.
My appt is at 11 tomorrow. We'll see.
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