![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by muffled on December 24, 2006, at 22:40:42
In reply to why can't I leave therapy?, posted by Tamar on December 24, 2006, at 21:56:50
TAMAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thrilled to see ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Sorry bout your T :(
It would seem he's been pretty useless from the start.....
You are so amazingly wise and wonderful Tamar, I too wish you could somehow break free of this T :(
Have you looked for diff ones at all?
Mebbe have a T in place so you have support to leave your T?
I wonder if you would be OK w/a female T?
Anyhow, I'n SO glad to see you again Tamar and hope you continue to pop in. Missed ya!
Goto go, just so exited to see your post :)
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by annierose on December 24, 2006, at 23:19:36
In reply to why can't I leave therapy?, posted by Tamar on December 24, 2006, at 21:56:50
From what you have described, it does sound like he was insensitive to your appointment on Friday. He should have told you a few weeks in advance and offered to reschedule that appointment earlier in the day or week (at least that is what my therapist would have offered).
I'm sadden to read you have been so sad recently. I wish my magic wand was working but it seems to be on the blink as of late.
Therapists are VERY hard to leave - at least I think so. And just because you are going through a rough time now, it doesn't mean you should quit therapy or that he is "bad" for you. It could mean several things. But I do understand your frustration. From what I recall from previous posts, I think (and what do I know?) it boils down (mostly)to his training (that's my guess). You are an analytical thinker. You like to examine feelings from all angles and points of view. You are smart. Your t is not psychodynamic or an analysis. He usually does short term treatment (I think). So he wants to help you, he does, but I think he is stepping outside his comfort zone, and that is the boundary you keep pushing into.
I'm exhausted but wanted to respond before my brain turned to total mush. Sorry I don't have more insights to offer right now.
Wishing you peace in your heart.
Annie
Posted by Happyflower on December 25, 2006, at 11:04:31
In reply to Re: why can't I leave therapy? » Tamar, posted by annierose on December 24, 2006, at 23:19:36
I am happy to see you post, what a wonderful gift on xmas to see your name on babble.
I don't know about what to do with your T, my mind is so mushed right now. I am smacking into my T boundries right now too, and I don't know what to do other than tie him to his chair and make him listen to my feelings. Oh, and I would have to stuff a sock in his mouth too, so he will shut up for a while so I can talk without being interupted. So I guess my only advice is to use some rope and duct tape, but seriously I don't know what to do, but if you figure it out , let me know.
Love,
Happyflower
Posted by Dinah on December 25, 2006, at 13:15:31
In reply to why can't I leave therapy?, posted by Tamar on December 24, 2006, at 21:56:50
At times that thought has occurred to me. Even when therapy is clearly not helping at the time, I find it nearly impossible to walk away.
I think... I think it can be as hard to give up on this sort of relationship as any other kind. Especially if there is intermittant positive reinforcement that keeps you motivated.
But don't we do the same sort of thing with others that we want something from that they can't or won't provide? We keep going to parents expecting that they'll suddenly be the mommy or daddy we always wanted. We stick with partners because sometimes it is good, and the rest of the time can't be that bad can it? And surely it's better than being alone.
I think it's probably hardwired into us somehow, and while that may be good for the human species in general, it sure can hurt us individually.
I think Annierose is right in that the main problem always has been his training and theoretical orientation. I doubt it's personal at all.
FWIW, if you really do think you're better off without him than with him, I've always found that I do better if I emotionally divorce before I physically do it. I can't give an exact recipe for that as it seems to be something that just happens. But I think trying to change perspective, gain distance, and notice a *lot* of flaws are the keys to emotional divorce.
It's good to see your name again. I was thinking of you the other day and wishing you were around.
Posted by caraher on December 25, 2006, at 14:41:56
In reply to Re: why can't I leave therapy? » Tamar, posted by Dinah on December 25, 2006, at 13:15:31
Have you asked him how he thinks things are going? I'd imagine he'd have some sense that things aren't so good, too.
Could you discuss with him, if even in a very theoretical, therapists (or the kind of therapist) he'd think you should see if you were unable to see him anymore?
I know it's not so simple because there are some positives to "Bert" you might not get elsewhere. But really, you do need to trust your instincts on this and find a way to see someone who can help you more. You've given more than a "fair trial" to this therapy relationship and you know it. In any relationship, if your satisfaction is contingent on a fundamental change occurring in the other person, it probably has a bleak future. It doesn't sound as if he's going to change his ways anytime soon, and it's foolish to hope for it.
(((Tamar)))
Posted by ElaineM on December 25, 2006, at 22:47:17
In reply to why can't I leave therapy?, posted by Tamar on December 24, 2006, at 21:56:50
>>>>I’m finding it impossible to believe that he can help me.
>>>>I’ve challenged him repeatedly about his tendency to shut down the conversation when I talk about what I want from him, but it hasn’t changed the way he relates to me(((Tamar))), I don't have anything much to add on to what others have said already. But I'm sorry you're having such a hard time with depression right now -- what a terrible feeling. It sounds like you not only know where your working future with your T stands, but have also tried your best to engage him in ways that would be more helpful to you. I don't know what more you can do.
>>>>I’d love to be able to have the kinds of conversations that other people describe.
I know exactly what you mean. It's painful for me to read posts about T's who say and do the "right" things, are sensitive, etc. Often I can't tolerate it so I end up avoiding threads like that. Two years is a long time to be waiting for even a sign that something could be ultimately beneficial for you. It must feel like forever.
>>>>>I feel sure I should leave him but I don’t have the strength of character to leave him. I hate myself for being so weak.
I understand. I don't know what to say. The only thing I tell myself is that even when I think that staying makes me deplorably weak, there is one "weaker" position that I'm one step up from -- denial. And I'm refusing to delude myself that everything is fine and perfect, by admitting that I do know things are not ideal and *should* be changed. At least that's a first step in the right direction. It is still a fairly new thing for me to be able to say that YES something is wrong, and YES it'd likely be healthier for me without him. There's still a wide gap between *knowing* and *doing*, I know, but a small start is still an improvement. Do you feel some strength in being able to at least have the *knowing* part right now?
>>>>>Why is it so hard to walk away from the people we love, even when it clearly isn’t working out?...And so often it comes down to “But I love him.” It doesn’t sound like a good enough reason.
Maybe not a "good enough" reason, but undeniably, a very powerful one. Why? Shared time together, disclosed secrets, familiarity. Because change is scary. Because being alone is. Because starting all over from scratch is a tough commitment to undertake. Because unrequited and/or unsolicited feelings are painful. Because sometimes "bad" exchanges seem better than none at all. Because it's hard to accept than no matter how bad we want someone to change for our better, it can still have no influence on the others behaviour. And hard cause I guess there's always the lingering feeling that, If I only wait one more...two more....six more months things could turn out how I want -- and it's hard to let go of that kind of hope.
I don't think that anyone can change a T's technique or personal perceptions, their psychological issues, or their personality -- even if we try, even if we want to. Even if I do. If you?
:"(A wise b-friend told me to remember to try and not judge myself harsher than any other babbler -- (((((wise b-friend))))))-- So be gentle with yourself.
Hope you had a little bit of Christmas happy.
Thinking of you, hugs, El
Posted by Daisym on December 26, 2006, at 0:57:01
In reply to why can't I leave therapy?, posted by Tamar on December 24, 2006, at 21:56:50
(((Tamar)))
I'm sorry you are having such a tough time. Leaving anyone you love is very hard and leaving someone you need is even harder. I think you've received some wise advice, and though it might be painful, it does sound like a direct conversation is needed. Asking him how he thinks things are going might be a good place to start.
Are you seeing someone else for medications? Perhaps you can get a consult from the pdoc, if possible. But suffering like this, for this long, just isn't fair nor healthy. Gather your courage, maybe ask for a double session and sit down and try to make a plan for the future. Your future.
Take care of yourself.
Daisy
Posted by Tamar on December 26, 2006, at 12:00:28
In reply to Re: why can't I leave therapy? » Tamar, posted by muffled on December 24, 2006, at 22:40:42
> TAMAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Thrilled to see ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1Hi Muffled! Really good to see you too!
> Sorry bout your T :(
> It would seem he's been pretty useless from the start.....He’s good at some things… but I’m really struggling with the transference stuff. I’m pretty sure I’ve over-reacting to his forgetfulness.
> You are so amazingly wise and wonderful Tamar, I too wish you could somehow break free of this T :(
> Have you looked for diff ones at all?I had a brief look a few days ago. I found an online site with descriptions of Ts in my area. I rally liked the sound of one of them… I liked the way he described his theoretical approach and ways of working.
> Mebbe have a T in place so you have support to leave your T?
> I wonder if you would be OK w/a female T?At the moment I really prefer the idea of a male T. But I guess the important thing is that it’s someone I can talk to, and that gender is probably not so important…
> Anyhow, I'n SO glad to see you again Tamar and hope you continue to pop in. Missed ya!
> Goto go, just so exited to see your post :)
> Take care,
> MuffledI hope you had a great Christmas. Take care of yourself too!
Love,
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on December 26, 2006, at 12:15:53
In reply to Re: why can't I leave therapy? » Tamar, posted by annierose on December 24, 2006, at 23:19:36
> From what you have described, it does sound like he was insensitive to your appointment on Friday. He should have told you a few weeks in advance and offered to reschedule that appointment earlier in the day or week (at least that is what my therapist would have offered).
Yeah… I would have liked that. Even if he’s just told me he was working all week except Friday afternoon. I’m probably just sulking… But when I saw him last Friday (which was my last day of teaching before the holidays) I said I had the end-of-term feeling and I asked him if he had a similar feeling - because I thought it was his last day too. And he said he still had a few days to work. And I guess I was imagining he was working until Wednesday or something. So when I discovered he was still working on Friday morning, I wished he’d just told me as much. I *know* it’s none of my business, but it feels as if he was deliberately withholding that information because he suspected it would upset me, and that’s all very well, because what I don’t know won’t hurt me, except that now I do know and yeah, I do feel hurt. And I also feel as I’m an immature school kids for being upset about it. I feel suspicious and distrustful of him, and I hate that. I hardly ever feel those things about anyone.
> I'm sadden to read you have been so sad recently. I wish my magic wand was working but it seems to be on the blink as of late.
Thanks Annie. Yeah, my magic wand doesn’t seem to work these days either!
> Therapists are VERY hard to leave - at least I think so. And just because you are going through a rough time now, it doesn't mean you should quit therapy or that he is "bad" for you. It could mean several things. But I do understand your frustration. From what I recall from previous posts, I think (and what do I know?) it boils down (mostly)to his training (that's my guess). You are an analytical thinker. You like to examine feelings from all angles and points of view. You are smart. Your t is not psychodynamic or an analysis. He usually does short term treatment (I think). So he wants to help you, he does, but I think he is stepping outside his comfort zone, and that is the boundary you keep pushing into.
You are right; he usually does short term CBT. And yet I know (because he told me) that his training was psychodynamic. But then maybe he’s working in CBT these days because he finds psychodynamic work uncomfortable. But if that’s the case, why did he offer to work psychodynamically with me? Did he think I wasn’t likely to ‘ooze transference’? I bet that’s it. And yet there’s no point trying to figure him out, is there? I don’t have enough evidence to come to any worthwhile conclusions.
> I'm exhausted but wanted to respond before my brain turned to total mush. Sorry I don't have more insights to offer right now.
Thanks so much for your thoughts. I’m sure you are right about stepping outside his comfort zone.
> Wishing you peace in your heart.
You too.
Love,
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on December 26, 2006, at 12:29:43
In reply to Re: why can't I leave therapy? » annierose, posted by Happyflower on December 25, 2006, at 11:04:31
> I am happy to see you post, what a wonderful gift on xmas to see your name on babble.
Lovely to see your name too!
> I don't know about what to do with your T, my mind is so mushed right now. I am smacking into my T boundries right now too, and I don't know what to do other than tie him to his chair and make him listen to my feelings. Oh, and I would have to stuff a sock in his mouth too, so he will shut up for a while so I can talk without being interupted. So I guess my only advice is to use some rope and duct tape, but seriously I don't know what to do, but if you figure it out , let me know.
I like the rope and duct tape plan! I’m not sure I would behave appropriately if I had him tied up… It would be the perfect opportunity to demonstrate to him the stuff I’ve been thinking and feeling…
Fortunately, though, my T doesn’t interrupt. I’d like to give him a script, I think. I’d write out my lines and his lines and ask him to read it.
I hope you manage to get through to your T.
Love,
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on December 26, 2006, at 12:38:01
In reply to Re: why can't I leave therapy? » Tamar, posted by Dinah on December 25, 2006, at 13:15:31
> At times that thought has occurred to me. Even when therapy is clearly not helping at the time, I find it nearly impossible to walk away.
Yeah.
> I think... I think it can be as hard to give up on this sort of relationship as any other kind. Especially if there is intermittant positive reinforcement that keeps you motivated.
A very good point. We had a really nice session the last time I saw him. I felt better about therapy than I had in ages. Sigh.
> But don't we do the same sort of thing with others that we want something from that they can't or won't provide? We keep going to parents expecting that they'll suddenly be the mommy or daddy we always wanted. We stick with partners because sometimes it is good, and the rest of the time can't be that bad can it? And surely it's better than being alone.
Exactly.
> I think it's probably hardwired into us somehow, and while that may be good for the human species in general, it sure can hurt us individually.
>
> I think Annierose is right in that the main problem always has been his training and theoretical orientation. I doubt it's personal at all.I think there’s a part of me that wants it to be personal. I guess I feel I want to get under his skin. If he’s not doing well with my transference, I want the reason to be something in his own background or something countertransferential; something that connects him to me personally. If it’s really nothing personal and nothing to do with me, then not only is he failing to work effectively with me but he’s also demonstrating his lack of interest in me at a professional level. I find it hard enough to handle the idea that he doesn’t have special feelings about me, but I used to feel sure that he was professionally interested in me. Now I don’t even have that.
> FWIW, if you really do think you're better off without him than with him, I've always found that I do better if I emotionally divorce before I physically do it. I can't give an exact recipe for that as it seems to be something that just happens. But I think trying to change perspective, gain distance, and notice a *lot* of flaws are the keys to emotional divorce.That makes sense. I think I’ll find it easy enough to notice the flaws. It’s the gaining distance part I find tricky. Maybe I should suggest seeing him less often…
> It's good to see your name again. I was thinking of you the other day and wishing you were around.
It’s good to see your name again too. I wish I could be more communicative when I’m feeling so depressed.
Love,
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on December 26, 2006, at 12:52:25
In reply to Re: why can't I leave therapy?, posted by caraher on December 25, 2006, at 14:41:56
> Have you asked him how he thinks things are going? I'd imagine he'd have some sense that things aren't so good, too.
That’s a good idea. It would make sense to ask him. I will admit I’m afraid of his reply. But then, I know I’m pretty stuck at the moment. And maybe hearing what he hopes and expects from our work together would give me a sense of perspective.
> Could you discuss with him, if even in a very theoretical, therapists (or the kind of therapist) he'd think you should see if you were unable to see him anymore?
That’s also a very good idea. Although, I wonder how helpful his answer would be if he doesn’t get the need for transference work. On the other hand, it might provide a good starting point for talking through some of that stuff.
> I know it's not so simple because there are some positives to "Bert" you might not get elsewhere. But really, you do need to trust your instincts on this and find a way to see someone who can help you more. You've given more than a "fair trial" to this therapy relationship and you know it.
Yes… I hope that’s true. I mean, I hope the trial has been fair. I still wonder if it’s unfair of me to complain when I haven’t told him word-for-word that I’m caught in this scary transferential stuff. But on the other hand, I’ve tried and he hasn’t heard; I’ve tried and he’s changed the subject; I’ve tried and he’s failed to engage with the feelings I’m expressing…
> In any relationship, if your satisfaction is contingent on a fundamental change occurring in the other person, it probably has a bleak future. It doesn't sound as if he's going to change his ways anytime soon, and it's foolish to hope for it.
Yeah, I probably am foolish. And yet… I’ve never thought I was expecting a change that was fundamental. I’ve thought the change I wanted was more about ways of communicating and relating, which always seemed to me a reasonable hope. After all, don’t we all make some adjustments to our ways of relating in our relationships? Or am I living in a fantasy world?
> (((Tamar)))
Thanks for the hugs. Hugs to you too.
Love,
Tamar
Posted by dessbee on December 26, 2006, at 13:04:32
In reply to why can't I leave therapy?, posted by Tamar on December 24, 2006, at 21:56:50
Are you in love with your therapist?
Are you taking any antideprissive medicine?
What kind of therapist is he? (psychodynamic psychotherapist or cognitive behavioural therapist)
Posted by Tamar on December 26, 2006, at 18:40:23
In reply to Re: why can't I leave therapy? » Tamar, posted by ElaineM on December 25, 2006, at 22:47:17
> I know exactly what you mean. It's painful for me to read posts about T's who say and do the "right" things, are sensitive, etc.
Yeah. And actually, my therapist does sometimes get it right, but there are certain things I really *really* want him to get right and it hurts so much when he doesn’t.
> Often I can't tolerate it so I end up avoiding threads like that.
Oh, that’s interesting! I do the opposite. I read threads like that because I sometimes like to imagine those same words being said in my therapist’s voice. Sometimes I can imagine having therapeutic conversations with ‘Bert’ and in my imagination he knows what to say.
> Two years is a long time to be waiting for even a sign that something could be ultimately beneficial for you. It must feel like forever.
I think I’ve been too critical of him. He has been great in many ways. But there’s this one thing he seems unable to help me with. And unfortunately I’ve come to believe it’s essential if I’m to make further progress.
> I understand. I don't know what to say. The only thing I tell myself is that even when I think that staying makes me deplorably weak, there is one "weaker" position that I'm one step up from -- denial. And I'm refusing to delude myself that everything is fine and perfect, by admitting that I do know things are not ideal and *should* be changed. At least that's a first step in the right direction. It is still a fairly new thing for me to be able to say that YES something is wrong, and YES it'd likely be healthier for me without him. There's still a wide gap between *knowing* and *doing*, I know, but a small start is still an improvement. Do you feel some strength in being able to at least have the *knowing* part right now?
That makes a lot of sense! It’s absolutely true that feelings and thoughts don’t always match. If we could always match our feelings to our thoughts we probably wouldn’t need therapy, eh? I will try to focus on the knowing for a while; you’re right that it’s better than denial.
> Maybe not a "good enough" reason, but undeniably, a very powerful one. Why? Shared time together, disclosed secrets, familiarity. Because change is scary. Because being alone is. Because starting all over from scratch is a tough commitment to undertake. Because unrequited and/or unsolicited feelings are painful. Because sometimes "bad" exchanges seem better than none at all. Because it's hard to accept than no matter how bad we want someone to change for our better, it can still have no influence on the others behaviour. And hard cause I guess there's always the lingering feeling that, If I only wait one more...two more....six more months things could turn out how I want -- and it's hard to let go of that kind of hope.
Yeah, and bad exchanges make me want to behave badly. I want to phone him at home, send him emails, and generally contact him in between sessions, which he doesn’t encourage…
> I don't think that anyone can change a T's technique or personal perceptions, their psychological issues, or their personality -- even if we try, even if we want to. Even if I do. If you?
I don’t think I want to change anything fundamental about him. But maybe he would consider this kind of thing fundamental. Of course, I have no idea. All I know is that he claims to be working psychodynamically with me, which prompts transference, and then he doesn’t seem to want to work with the transference. I don’t know if that’s fundamental. I didn’t think it was, but maybe it is.
> A wise b-friend told me to remember to try and not judge myself harsher than any other babbler -- (((((wise b-friend))))))-- So be gentle with yourself.
Thanks. I’ll try!
> Hope you had a little bit of Christmas happy.
Yeah, Christmas was actually very nice. A year ago my mother-in-law was in a serious accident, and she (and my father-in-law) came over for Christmas, so we were celebrating the fact that she’s still alive!
I hope your Christmas was peaceful.
Love,
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on December 26, 2006, at 18:48:51
In reply to Re: why can't I leave therapy? » Tamar, posted by Daisym on December 26, 2006, at 0:57:01
> (((Tamar)))
>
> I'm sorry you are having such a tough time. Leaving anyone you love is very hard and leaving someone you need is even harder. I think you've received some wise advice, and though it might be painful, it does sound like a direct conversation is needed. Asking him how he thinks things are going might be a good place to start.Yes, I’m sure that’s right. I think he’d probably welcome a conversation about how things are going. I expect he’s nearly as frustrated as I am.
> Are you seeing someone else for medications? Perhaps you can get a consult from the pdoc, if possible. But suffering like this, for this long, just isn't fair nor healthy. Gather your courage, maybe ask for a double session and sit down and try to make a plan for the future. Your future.
Happily for me, my GP prescribes my meds. I tried to cut down a month ago but with out success so I’m back up to 40mg of Prozac. I wish I could double it… I kind of feel the need for lots and lots.
I’m sure that part of the difficulty is my own wish to avoid the subject. I’d love to blame Bert entirely but somehow that doesn’t seem fair.
I’ve tried so many different ways to talk to him about it. And I’ve tried writing things down, but I never seem to be able to articulate things properly. Last session I wrote stuff down and then forgot to take it… unconsciously avoiding it, I suppose. Maybe I should write him a letter; then I won’t be able to run away from it! My main worry about that is that he might keep it in my file. I don’t want anything like that to be in writing in my file. I’d rather ask him to give it back to me. I wonder if he’d agree to that…
> Take care of yourself.
You too.
Love,
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on December 26, 2006, at 19:11:48
In reply to Re: why can't I leave therapy? » Tamar, posted by dessbee on December 26, 2006, at 13:04:32
Hello dessbee,
Those are good questions. I’ll try to answer them.
> Are you in love with your therapist?
Not at the moment. At least, I don’t think so. I used to be in love with him a couple of years ago. But I do love him, sometimes just because he’s my therapist, but also in other, more transferential ways. I’ve been having a lot of problems in my marriage that seem to be connected with my very unhealthy relationship with my father when I was a teenager, and a lot of those feelings end up transferred onto my therapist. I find it terrifying and shameful and embarrassing, and I know that talking about it would help, but it’s been very difficult. I was never able to talk to him about my feelings of being in love with him (more than a year ago) either. At the moment I don’t feel much inclination to be his partner (only occasionally); instead I usually wish he would take care of me and comfort me and give me lots of reassurance and approval. I think I want to be his cat or something. I’d say I want to be his daughter, but that doesn’t seem quite right. Maybe I want him to be my father. Or my mother. I’m quite confused.
> Are you taking any antideprissive medicine?
Yep. 40mg of Prozac every morning. Yum yum!
> What kind of therapist is he? (psychodynamic psychotherapist or cognitive behavioural therapist)
Well, here’s the thing. He usually does CBT with his current clients, but he was trained in psychodynamic therapy, and that’s what he says he’s using with me. And I’ve done CBT work with him before, and this is very different. But I think that when I head towards transferential territory he replies with more CBT-oriented responses, perhaps because that’s how he usually practices, perhaps because he’s uncomfortable with transference stuff… I dunno. And although I’ve tried to talk to him about it I haven’t had much success. I don’t think he knows what I’m talking about. Maybe I’m not being direct enough. I have trouble being direct in therapy. I unconsciously censor myself. And yet… I don’t understand why he’s not looking out for transference and recognising it when it’s obvious…
Thanks for the interesting questions!
Posted by Fallsfall on December 26, 2006, at 21:53:32
In reply to Re: why can't I leave therapy? » dessbee, posted by Tamar on December 26, 2006, at 19:11:48
Not dealing with transference when it is occurring can be damaging. What a relief and what a difference for me when I switched to a therapist who did deal with transference.
My old therapist tried to tell me that she couldn't help me anymore, but I wasn't inclined to listen. I think it might be helpful if you do have that "How do you think therapy is going" conversation. If he feels like he isn't helping you as much as you need, perhaps he can give you a referral.
When you need real psychodynamic therapy, there is no substitute.
Posted by caraher on December 26, 2006, at 22:10:14
In reply to Re: why can't I leave therapy? » Daisym, posted by Tamar on December 26, 2006, at 18:48:51
>My main worry about that is that he might keep it in my file. I don’t want anything like that to be in writing in my file. I’d rather ask him to give it back to me. I wonder if he’d agree to that…
Wouldn't hurt to ask. My long-time T took notes and I asked how she used them. She volunteered that she only keeps them for a short while and shreds them, primarily so that they won't be available if, say, there's a divorce case involving a client.
Posted by pegasus on December 27, 2006, at 9:45:31
In reply to Re: why can't I leave therapy? » dessbee, posted by Tamar on December 26, 2006, at 19:11:48
>I think I want to be his cat or something.
Oh, yeah! I think you're on to something here. I think I always wanted to be my ex-Ts cat, and sit on his lap getting petted, or just hang out next to him with no talking. Not that the talking wasn't good, but I wanted to be around and be cared for also outside of the talking.
I'm sorry you are having so much trouble. I hope you can find a way to talk to your T more directly about this. It really sounds like you need to take some action, and if that can't be by leaving him, then maybe it can be by changing something in your relationship. I know you've been trying hard to do that, and it's frustrating. Maybe if you write something to him to explain, you could post it here first, to see if we think it's direct enough that he should get it? And/or maybe you could formulate an answer that you think would be helpful and appropriate for you (babble can help here, I'm sure), and give that to him so he can know exactly what you're looking for. Don't know if this would help, but I find when I'm not getting what I want that sometimes eventually just telling the other person what I'm looking for can lead to a really helpful conversation.
Anyway I wish you much much luck. It's a tricky place you're in, and I will be thinking about you.
p
Posted by dessbee on December 27, 2006, at 12:46:00
In reply to Re: why can't I leave therapy? » dessbee, posted by Tamar on December 26, 2006, at 19:11:48
I get the feeling you are looking for secondary gain in your therapy. It is tough being depressive since many symptoms of depression makes you look for someone that will comfort you. Most professional therapists are aware of secondary gain and will avoid it some way or another. The problem seems to be that it is persistent, which may explain why you can't leave therapy.
Considering you had a bad relationship with your father, maybe secondary gain would be less of a problem if you had a female therapist.
I think your therapy should focus on CBT in order to deal with how you think about the unhealthy relationship with your father. You need to look at who your father is/was and try to find a cognitive way of accepting his flaws. This is the hard part, a good therapist will help you find those thoughts so you can move on in life.
Posted by Tamar on December 27, 2006, at 15:28:41
In reply to Re: why can't I leave therapy? » Tamar, posted by Fallsfall on December 26, 2006, at 21:53:32
> Not dealing with transference when it is occurring can be damaging. What a relief and what a difference for me when I switched to a therapist who did deal with transference.
I remember you've said that before. It makes a lot of sense to me.
> My old therapist tried to tell me that she couldn't help me anymore, but I wasn't inclined to listen. I think it might be helpful if you do have that "How do you think therapy is going" conversation. If he feels like he isn't helping you as much as you need, perhaps he can give you a referral.
I'm really starting to think that the point of therapy is to make progress! And that may mean moving to a different therapist... I'd rather eat my own ears than leave Bert, but on the other hand there's no point in continuing like this.
> When you need real psychodynamic therapy, there is no substitute.
Yeah... I really think I do need it. Thanks, Falls.
Posted by Tamar on December 27, 2006, at 15:36:13
In reply to Re: why can't I leave therapy?, posted by caraher on December 26, 2006, at 22:10:14
> >My main worry about that is that he might keep it in my file. I don’t want anything like that to be in writing in my file. I’d rather ask him to give it back to me. I wonder if he’d agree to that…
>
> Wouldn't hurt to ask. My long-time T took notes and I asked how she used them. She volunteered that she only keeps them for a short while and shreds them, primarily so that they won't be available if, say, there's a divorce case involving a client.Good idea, and that's another whole thing I'd like to know about. I don't want to read what he writes, but I'd love to know how much he writes and how long he keeps them...
Posted by Tamar on December 27, 2006, at 16:08:04
In reply to Re: why can't I leave therapy? » Tamar, posted by pegasus on December 27, 2006, at 9:45:31
> >I think I want to be his cat or something.
>
> Oh, yeah! I think you're on to something here. I think I always wanted to be my ex-Ts cat, and sit on his lap getting petted, or just hang out next to him with no talking. Not that the talking wasn't good, but I wanted to be around and be cared for also outside of the talking.Exactly!
> I'm sorry you are having so much trouble. I hope you can find a way to talk to your T more directly about this. It really sounds like you need to take some action, and if that can't be by leaving him, then maybe it can be by changing something in your relationship. I know you've been trying hard to do that, and it's frustrating. Maybe if you write something to him to explain, you could post it here first, to see if we think it's direct enough that he should get it? And/or maybe you could formulate an answer that you think would be helpful and appropriate for you (babble can help here, I'm sure), and give that to him so he can know exactly what you're looking for. Don't know if this would help, but I find when I'm not getting what I want that sometimes eventually just telling the other person what I'm looking for can lead to a really helpful conversation.
I do want to try one more time… I know it’s about the 15th time I’ve said this. And yeah, I think it would be helpful to get other people’s ideas about how to phrase it. I’ll put my mind to it and try writing something down…
> Anyway I wish you much much luck. It's a tricky place you're in, and I will be thinking about you.
Thanks Peg. I’ll be thinking about you too.
Posted by Tamar on December 27, 2006, at 16:27:50
In reply to Re: why can't I leave therapy? » Tamar, posted by dessbee on December 27, 2006, at 12:46:00
> I get the feeling you are looking for secondary gain in your therapy. It is tough being depressive since many symptoms of depression makes you look for someone that will comfort you. Most professional therapists are aware of secondary gain and will avoid it some way or another. The problem seems to be that it is persistent, which may explain why you can't leave therapy.
I have never heard of secondary gain before, so I don't know exactly what you mean, but I'm guessing you're saying I'm hoping my therapist will comfort me or something like that. Have I understood you correctly?
I definitely *wish* my therapist would comfort me, but I don't *expect* him to comfort me. What I'd like is to be able to talk about that desire for comfort. I can understand him avoiding any gratification of my wish for comfort, but I don't understand why he avoids discussing it. Avoidance of the discussion doesn’t minimise my investment in the desire for comfort.
> Considering you had a bad relationship with your father, maybe secondary gain would be less of a problem if you had a female therapist.
Well, my relationship with my mother hasn't been ideal either...
> I think your therapy should focus on CBT in order to deal with how you think about the unhealthy relationship with your father.
I did CBT before (with the same therapist) and I found it useful for my feelings of incompetence at work and for problems in current relationships, but I didn't find it so useful for the past problems with my father. In fact, my therapist seemed to think (when I came back for more therapy) that the best approach for me was psychodynamic therapy. I'm sure he had his reasons for that.
> You need to look at who your father is/was and try to find a cognitive way of accepting his flaws. This is the hard part, a good therapist will help you find those thoughts so you can move on in life.
I agree that finding a cognitive way of accepting my father's flaws is difficult. However, I have pretty much done that work and have repaired my relationship with my father. The thing I'm struggling with at the moment is repairing the damage that was done to me psychologically when things were very bad with my father... the way his bullying and neglect had shaped my perspective on other relationships, for example.
I've wanted to consider my attachment to my therapist and my experience of transference a therapeutic opportunity (even if it's an opportunity that I can't seem to make much of at the moment). I'm interested that you don't seem to see things that way. On what basis would you decide whether CBT or psychodynamic therapy is best for a particular person? What’s your theoretical perspective? I’m curious about why you think I should do CBT instead of psychodynamic work.
Thanks for your thoughts on all this.
Posted by Daisym on December 27, 2006, at 19:15:06
In reply to Re: why can't I leave therapy? » dessbee, posted by Tamar on December 27, 2006, at 16:27:50
****I have never heard of secondary gain before, so I don't know exactly what you mean, but I'm guessing you're saying I'm hoping my therapist will comfort me or something like that. Have I understood you correctly?
>>>Secondary gains come in when you get something from a behavior that on the surface you want to extinguish. It falls along side the co-dependent stuff - and why in systems therapy the whole family is likely to try to keep the system in equilibrium thus resisting change, even good change. Freud talked about it as negative attention and we still talk with parents about this concept. All that said, I don't think you are staying with this therapist due to any secondary gains, I think you've been clear that your primary motivator *is* your attachment.
****I definitely *wish* my therapist would comfort me, but I don't *expect* him to comfort me. What I'd like is to be able to talk about that desire for comfort. I can understand him avoiding any gratification of my wish for comfort, but I don't understand why he avoids discussing it. Avoidance of the discussion doesn’t minimize my investment in the desire for comfort.
>>>>OK, I don't get this. I know it is common for therapists to avoid "gratification" especially of archaic needs, but isn't feeling better the primary reason people go to therapy? And of course you want your therapist to provide security and comfort, even if it is "just" in their presence. I've just finished rereading "A General Theory of Love" and I am reminded of his thoughts on therapy. He makes the case that we imprint our specific therapist, if it is the right one, and that the attachment is not interchangeable. And he talks about limbic connections, and how important it is to give the relationship time to grow and influence our perceptions of the world. No matter how badly we want to speed up the process, you just can't. Emotional change is an excruciatingly slow process and tons of hard, painful work. We can totally understand why we react the way we do, and where it came from, and yet time after time, we continue to react the same way. We haven't shifted our emotional encyclopedia; we still decode everything from our personal historical version.I think research has shown over and over again that it isn't the type of therapy that effects change as much as it is the relationship and connectedness between the therapist and the patient. Relationships take time and proximity. When I get twisted up (like I did today) about how much time I spend talking about therapy itself, instead of my "real" issues, my therapist always says in sort of an exasperated way, "Daisy - this IS what you should be talking about. Accepting that you need me and allowing me to help, IS your therapy."
I'm glad you are going to write about what you want to say. I think it will help.
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