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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sar on October 11, 2001, at 17:59:03
docs have thought at times that i've experienced "mixed states." regular civilians don't understand this concept and i'm doubting myself and confused...
the situation: i was at work yesterday, at the bookstore. i've worked there full-time for 6 months have really enjoyed it, loving books and people and easy jobs and the occasional paycheck as i do.
but every once in awhile the air in the store seems a bit turgid, i don't feel quite real and feel very ANGRY and agitated like if i can't get out of the store i'm just going to jump out of my skin. i've gone home a couple of times because of that.
yesterday that's how i felt, really on edge, and i told my supervisor so. i told her i was in a bad mood and she told me to just not to talk to anyone. i told her that's not what it was about, she asked if anything bad had happened and i said no, she said that everyone gets into bad moods and you just have to deal with it. by this point, i was wringing my hands and felt like pulling my hair out, spitting nails then going for a long walk.
my supervisor told me that if i left, i'd get an "occurence" which would be the last straw for me 'cos i was already on Final Written Warning for tardiness/absences. so i could stay, leave and get fired, or just straight-up quit. i chose the latter.
i walked home 4 miles, bar-hopping the whole way, and i cried really hard. they were nice when i signed all the forms to quit, cool people, but then a dam in my throat broke and i sobbed hard as i walked down the highway, i don't know why, i cried cried cried like i haven't in awhile.
i've spent today wondering if i should have just sat it through at work. is this just lack of discipline, willpower? i know i wouldn't have *really* pulled my hair out, but when i get into these agitated moods i have to whatever i feel like doing--which usually involves leaving, crying, drinking, sacrificing whatever (like a job i like) just to be OUT.
is this normal?
Posted by judy1 on October 11, 2001, at 18:22:26
In reply to mixed state or lack of discipline?, posted by sar on October 11, 2001, at 17:59:03
Been there too, sounds like a mixed state unless you had a trigger? (I get those- dissociate, etc-PTSD, Dissociative Disorder NOS) but mostly this sounds like a typical bipolar swing and didn't I read you weren't on any mood stabilizers? Hope you're feeling better, can you get disability for a while?- Judy
Posted by dreamer on October 11, 2001, at 18:35:11
In reply to mixed state or lack of discipline?, posted by sar on October 11, 2001, at 17:59:03
> docs have thought at times that i've experienced "mixed states." regular civilians don't understand this concept and i'm doubting myself and confused...
>
> the situation: i was at work yesterday, at the bookstore. i've worked there full-time for 6 months have really enjoyed it, loving books and people and easy jobs and the occasional paycheck as i do.
>
> but every once in awhile the air in the store seems a bit turgid, i don't feel quite real and feel very ANGRY and agitated like if i can't get out of the store i'm just going to jump out of my skin. i've gone home a couple of times because of that.
>
> yesterday that's how i felt, really on edge, and i told my supervisor so. i told her i was in a bad mood and she told me to just not to talk to anyone. i told her that's not what it was about, she asked if anything bad had happened and i said no, she said that everyone gets into bad moods and you just have to deal with it. by this point, i was wringing my hands and felt like pulling my hair out, spitting nails then going for a long walk.
>
> my supervisor told me that if i left, i'd get an "occurence" which would be the last straw for me 'cos i was already on Final Written Warning for tardiness/absences. so i could stay, leave and get fired, or just straight-up quit. i chose the latter.
>
> i walked home 4 miles, bar-hopping the whole way, and i cried really hard. they were nice when i signed all the forms to quit, cool people, but then a dam in my throat broke and i sobbed hard as i walked down the highway, i don't know why, i cried cried cried like i haven't in awhile.
>
> i've spent today wondering if i should have just sat it through at work. is this just lack of discipline, willpower? i know i wouldn't have *really* pulled my hair out, but when i get into these agitated moods i have to whatever i feel like doing--which usually involves leaving, crying, drinking, sacrificing whatever (like a job i like) just to be OUT.
>
> is this normal?Hi Sar,
For me it was normal walked out of so many jobs crying running home to drink....can't xplain it..
ain't been working for years .
Something bout having to stay in one place for certain time not having freedom, one job I just paced couldn't relax felt trapped, but in own environment I'm ok .
Mixed state? ---very energetic laughing high but irritable angry at everythin.dreamer
Posted by Noa on October 11, 2001, at 18:47:25
In reply to Re: mixed state or lack of discipline?, posted by dreamer on October 11, 2001, at 18:35:11
also sounds like an anxiety attack, no?
Also--
The air felt turgid--what *is* the air situation in the store? Is it stuffy? Are you craving fresh air? How about temperature? What is the light situation? Is there natural light? Is the artificial light overstimulating? How is the space? Is it crowded? Visually, is the store an overstimulating kind of place? How about sounds? Is it possible you are reacting to something about the physical environment that you have limited tolerance for?
I am one of those people who can get sensory overload in certain kinds of environments. I have had times when I just have to get out of a store/mall immediately or I feel I will suffocate, or feel I can't think anymore. It usually happens when I have stayed too long--past what I can tolerate comfortably. I usually try to monitor it and manage it accordingly, but sometimes I forget and then it hits hard all of a sudden.
Even if this is true for you, tho, it doesn't, in my mind preclude the possibility that the mixed state hypothesis applies.
Posted by susan C on October 11, 2001, at 18:54:16
In reply to mixed state or lack of discipline?, posted by sar on October 11, 2001, at 17:59:03
> docs have thought at times that i've experienced "mixed states." regular civilians don't understand this concept and i'm doubting myself and confused...
>
> the situation: i was at work yesterday, at the bookstore. i've worked there full-time for 6 months have really enjoyed it, loving books and people and easy jobs and the occasional paycheck as i do.
>
> but every once in awhile the air in the store seems a bit turgid, i don't feel quite real and feel very ANGRY and agitated like if i can't get out of the store i'm just going to jump out of my skin. i've gone home a couple of times because of that.
>
> yesterday that's how i felt, really on edge, and i told my supervisor so. i told her i was in a bad mood and she told me to just not to talk to anyone. i told her that's not what it was about, she asked if anything bad had happened and i said no, she said that everyone gets into bad moods and you just have to deal with it. by this point, i was wringing my hands and felt like pulling my hair out, spitting nails then going for a long walk.
>
> my supervisor told me that if i left, i'd get an "occurence" which would be the last straw for me 'cos i was already on Final Written Warning for tardiness/absences. so i could stay, leave and get fired, or just straight-up quit. i chose the latter.
>
> i walked home 4 miles, bar-hopping the whole way, and i cried really hard. they were nice when i signed all the forms to quit, cool people, but then a dam in my throat broke and i sobbed hard as i walked down the highway, i don't know why, i cried cried cried like i haven't in awhile.
>
> i've spent today wondering if i should have just sat it through at work. is this just lack of discipline, willpower? i know i wouldn't have *really* pulled my hair out, but when i get into these agitated moods i have to whatever i feel like doing--which usually involves leaving, crying, drinking, sacrificing whatever (like a job i like) just to be OUT.
>
> is this normal?My vote is 'mixed states'. Is that four miles the same one I walked not so long ago...thank you for sharing...i know that is a stupit thing fer me to say, but it is true...there just arent many people i know or even want to know who act like me. I can't comment on the drinking, that is not one of my 'challenges'.
I actually stayed at something part time for three years, then almost four...but the first was my own businesss and part time and there were lots of other things going on (I kept dreaming things up) and the second one was in big ticket sales...different people, great for manic, terrible when my meds stopped working and now...I can hardly look at people... (this board is where I try to 'come out') I haven't worked since 1997...oh, I hadn't realized it was that long...
depakote is the only thing that has helped even me out I'd say about, 25%, but hey, not counting the break throughs, I would say that was good...along with controlling my environment and trying to understand my triggers and having a 'medical advocate'. I am real sorry sar but I would have quit. Now, apply now for Social Security Disability Insurance. Have we talked about that before?
Mouse with that concerned look in her eye
susan C
Posted by Wendy B. on October 11, 2001, at 22:56:20
In reply to mixed state or lack of discipline?, posted by sar on October 11, 2001, at 17:59:03
> docs have thought at times that i've experienced "mixed states." regular civilians don't understand this concept and i'm doubting myself and confused...
>
> the situation: i was at work yesterday, at the bookstore. i've worked there full-time for 6 months have really enjoyed it, loving books and people and easy jobs and the occasional paycheck as i do.
>
> but every once in awhile the air in the store seems a bit turgid, i don't feel quite real and feel very ANGRY and agitated like if i can't get out of the store i'm just going to jump out of my skin. i've gone home a couple of times because of that.
>
> yesterday that's how i felt, really on edge, and i told my supervisor so. i told her i was in a bad mood and she told me to just not to talk to anyone. i told her that's not what it was about, she asked if anything bad had happened and i said no, she said that everyone gets into bad moods and you just have to deal with it. by this point, i was wringing my hands and felt like pulling my hair out, spitting nails then going for a long walk.
>
> my supervisor told me that if i left, i'd get an "occurence" which would be the last straw for me 'cos i was already on Final Written Warning for tardiness/absences. so i could stay, leave and get fired, or just straight-up quit. i chose the latter.
>
> i walked home 4 miles, bar-hopping the whole way, and i cried really hard. they were nice when i signed all the forms to quit, cool people, but then a dam in my throat broke and i sobbed hard as i walked down the highway, i don't know why, i cried cried cried like i haven't in awhile.
>
> i've spent today wondering if i should have just sat it through at work. is this just lack of discipline, willpower? i know i wouldn't have *really* pulled my hair out, but when i get into these agitated moods i have to whatever i feel like doing--which usually involves leaving, crying, drinking, sacrificing whatever (like a job i like) just to be OUT.
>
> is this normal?sar,
it's normal for people like us... (!)i'm so sorry. this even on top of the probation and fines... this thing with the job did not have to happen, you liked the job... i'm outraged at your boss. not only insensitive, but probably has violated the Americans with Disabilities Act. you told her before you were sick. so she knew of the disability, even if you didn't specify what it was, which you don't have to do according to the law. and she is supposed to make an *accommodation* for you, *because* she knows you can get 'sick.' so if you say you can't breathe, she has to make an allowance for that. she could have said, just as easily, and with no harm to the business: 'just go for a long walk outside, and then come back,' or something to that effect. her attitude really pisses me off. heyyyyy - my bipolar added to your bipolar could get us in some real trouble.....
i know, you and susan say to yourselves: why bother with jerks, you're never going to change them or the situation. and probably not. another equally bipolar attitude is: 'let 'em fire me, i'll be back to file a huge great big long complaint,' when shit like this happens. they are in the wrong, not you. you liked the job, for god's sake... the boss is at fault.
i'm sorry, sar, i really am...love,
wendy
PS: BTW, re: judy's response, i think you need more neurontin, can the pdoc up the dose? remember, nutty people like me take the big ol' 600 mg horse-pills, and i take 'em 4 to 5 times a day. stay calm, stay cool... there are *other* fucking bookstores in town...
Posted by sar on October 11, 2001, at 23:26:04
In reply to Re: mixed state or lack of discipline?, posted by Wendy B. on October 11, 2001, at 22:56:20
dear all,
thanks for the quick responses. my family has not taken this well (i'm staying at their house) and they continue with accusations of me being a "loser" "derelict," what-have-you. a new friend of mine has invited me to live with her and her husband (they're my age) but it seems like some weird sex shit might be involved, so i'm very hesitant.
the environment in the store is fine. when i first got there i thought it was too bright and open, but i quicklly adjusted to the open-air large-windows well air-conditioned environment...not only that, but i was in the music section and could somewhat control the music (important) and my buds in the cafe hooked me up with the good kind of coffee.
on the job, i met a girl who is nuttier than i am, due to PTSD, sexual abuse, etc...she hears voices that tell her to hurt herself...we bonded after a few months of working together, of course it took lots of beer, but we've been pretty tight ever since and she told me that i could have used my "medical condition" as a way to hold on to the job or sue the pants of em or whatever, like i could have said, "look yall know i have this condition" (which they do) and worked through it in the legal sense, but by the time it happened i was up to my ears in tension. the job was largely Something To Do, i made $6.50/hr, bullshit really, so with the potential gossip involved, i just didn't want to hold on or explain any longer.
one of the great things about working there was that i saw all sorts of books, including ones on people who are overly sensitive to light/noise/etc--i'm not truly like that (tho i appreciate you bringing that up, Noa), the crowds and lights were fine with me, sometimes i get freaked out at malls at christmas-time, but i think that's normal... :)
i've thought about disability but it's another difficult label to accept. i think, am i really "bipolar" or "borderline"? Do i legally want to declare myself "disabled"? What kind of self-fulfilling prphecy goes along with that?
my supervisor was actually very nice, as was my boss. i know i could have argued myself into further employemt, i just wasn't up to it for the social consequences involved, and i'm moving to another city in 2 months anyway.
i wish that employers would advocate for you--"hey, we know you're bipolar/depressed, go home tonight but please stay on!" but really, the bookstore was part of a large national chain in the swanky suburbs, at least 10 people a day turned in applications, and i'm sure that for their own convenience, not understanding How It Feels To Be Me, they'd rather higher someone healthier. can i blame them? no....but i also don't think it's right.
but for a smidge above min wage, i didn't feel like fighting.
i'm relieved that other people have felt the same way. about once or twice a month i get into a terribly antsy irritable state in which i have to do WHATEVER, in this case it called for walking 4 miles and getting drunk, seems pretty run-of-the-mill for me...
but every year these swings tend to become more pronounced. maybe it's the meds? someone says something funny and i dissolve into giggles. someone says something wrong and i'm sobbing. and then i'm stoic for no or any reason at all.
my next appointment with the pdoc is the 16th, and i'm going to ask for an increase in neurontin. i'm at 900 mg/daily now...at first i really fel;t much better, but now i don't feel anything except the prozac/klonopin combo, which i was on before the n. was prescribed.
thanks and love to you all,
sar
Posted by Noa on October 12, 2001, at 7:06:58
In reply to Re: mixed state or lack of discipline?, posted by sar on October 11, 2001, at 23:26:04
Sar, I wonder if there is also a hormonal link, as seems (acc to what I've read) to happen for some women with mood disorders. Maybe you want to check that angle out too?
Posted by Roo on October 12, 2001, at 9:10:17
In reply to Re: mixed state or lack of discipline?, posted by Noa on October 12, 2001, at 7:06:58
Sar--I found my body adjusted really quickly to
neurotin, and that I needed more and more to get
the effect. I finally settled in, though, at
1800 mg's and have even taken more when I'm extra
anxious.
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 12, 2001, at 9:59:27
In reply to mixed state or lack of discipline?, posted by sar on October 11, 2001, at 17:59:03
> Sar:
Sounds like derealization/depersonalization experience to me...
- K.
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 12, 2001, at 10:00:30
In reply to Re: mixed state or lack of discipline?, posted by dreamer on October 11, 2001, at 18:35:11
re: job - yes, dreamer, yes. can't stay put - feeling trapped - worse thing in the world...
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 12, 2001, at 10:17:58
In reply to Re: mixed state or lack of discipline?, posted by sar on October 11, 2001, at 23:26:04
>
> but every year these swings tend to become more pronounced. maybe it's the meds? someone says something funny and i dissolve into giggles. someone says something wrong and i'm sobbing. and then i'm stoic for no or any reason at all.
====imho - you're bipolar - it gets worse over the years, especially if untreated. It got worse and worse in my twenties.
Posted by judy1 on October 12, 2001, at 11:18:12
In reply to Re: mixed state or lack of discipline?, posted by sar on October 11, 2001, at 23:26:04
If you truly ARE Bipolar then you are messing with fire; while neurontin has shown promise as an adjunctive mood stabilizer in some people, it is barely above placebos in most studies. Which brings me back to a person with bipolar disorder being exposed to prozac- a trip to the hospital with the worst psychotic manic symptoms I've ever had. Check it out with your pdoc and best of luck with your move- Judy
Posted by sar on October 12, 2001, at 12:36:41
In reply to mixed state or lack of discipline?, posted by sar on October 11, 2001, at 17:59:03
hello again... :)
Noa, how would i go about checking the hormonal angle. do you mean too much of a certain hormone, and which might it possibly be?
Roo & Judy, a bunch of docs have wanted to put me on depakote, "the gold standard," one said, but i read about potential hair loss/ weight gain (i know the hair-loss can be helped with zinc and selenium) and had a thread over on PB about depakote versus neurontin, and i got a well-educated suggestion that i try neurontin before a "big gun" like depakote...i'm going to ask for an increase in neurontin next week, and possibly more klonopin. sometimes i forget to take my nightly dose of K, and take an extra the next day...i *really* like those days.
re: bipolarity...it's all up in the air. i've never experienced mania, but before i was medicated (around this time last year) all i could do was lie in bed and cry, and then at night i'd jump up at get dressed up and drink a whole lot and lure someone back to my room...i drove my car as fast as it would go, i drank wine and went to a range to shoot pistols and shotguns...only somatic things mattered, i was sick of books and conversations, i just felt like screaming crying shouting laughing eating drinking fucking, those were the only important things...i had a loan from my parents to pay off some bills but i thought it would be better used on sexy clothes and bar tabs (but i was also going through a break-up, i might pin alot of this behavior on that).
finally when all of my friends hated me and i was broke i tried to kill myself and then i moved home.
my dad's aunt is BP I, she's such a hoot, i love her...my dad says that one of her symptoms is "inappropriate laughter," which i could be accused of...but maybe i just have a weird sense of humor? depression runs in my family, my dads side favored ECT and my mom's side chooses alcohol and drugs. suicide is popular on both sides.
i think i'll up my dose of neurontin before trying anything more serious...because i don't think i'm BP I, i've never felt like i was on top of the world or had special powers or things to do for the world, i had a tiny hypomanic episode coming off effexor, but it lasted less than a day.
often in high school i'd have the feeling that i just needed to leave right then, sometimes smoking a coupla cigs in the restroom temporarily did the trick, but other times i'd just ride the city bus home in the middle of the day. the truancy officers hauled me and my parents in. (rules rules...bleh...)
how does it FEEL to be bipolar II?
sorry to ramble on...
thanks again, everyone...
Posted by Wendy B. on October 12, 2001, at 21:21:19
In reply to Re: mixed state or lack of discipline?, posted by sar on October 12, 2001, at 12:36:41
Sar,
are you in denial? i ain't no doctor but:
> hello again... :)
>
> Noa, how would i go about checking the hormonal angle. do you mean too much of a certain hormone, and which might it possibly be?
we talked about hormones already this week. some suggested depo-prov others suggested 'the pill.' i think this is the hormonal connection, if i read noa's comment right. you were having suicidal pms, that's a hormonal problem. you need to ask about this, we established this a few days ago.> Roo & Judy, a bunch of docs have wanted to put me on depakote, "the gold standard," one said, but i read about potential hair loss/ weight gain (i know the hair-loss can be helped with zinc and selenium) and had a thread over on PB about depakote versus neurontin, and i got a well-educated suggestion that i try neurontin before a "big gun" like depakote...i'm going to ask for an increase in neurontin next week, and possibly more klonopin. sometimes i forget to take my nightly dose of K, and take an extra the next day...i *really* like those days.
sar, i respect your desire to go with the smallest gun, neurontin. it needs to be upped, period, if that's what you want to stay on. maybe the prozac should come down, if possible.
this part, though, kills me --
> re: bipolarity...it's all up in the air. i've never experienced mania, but before i was medicated (around this time last year) all i could do was lie in bed and cry, and then at night i'd jump up at get dressed up and drink a whole lot and lure someone back to my room...i drove my car as fast as it would go, i drank wine and went to a range to shoot pistols and shotguns...only somatic things mattered, i was sick of books and conversations, i just felt like screaming crying shouting laughing eating drinking fucking, those were the only important things...i had a loan from my parents to pay off some bills but i thought it would be better used on sexy clothes and bar tabs (but i was also going through a break-up, i might pin alot of this behavior on that).if this wasn't a perfect description of manic or at least heavy hypomanic behavior, i don't know what is. sorry to be blunt. i think you're blocking something when you say you've never been there. you have been manic. please consider carefully what you're inviting if you don't own up to your symptoms:
racing around, ruining yourself with booze (it's a very common co-morbid symptom), screwing impulsively and without protection, shooting guns. then being admitted to a hospital for a suicide attempt, where they said you should be on depakote. getting caught driving dwi. getting sentenced for it. paying a fine. being on parole for *years.* (i.e. 'trouble wth the law'). in short, everything you could have done to get just a hair's breath from your own death, overdose, HIV, or killing others in the accident, etc.remember the thread months back, where a guy you knew did himself in overdosing on H? or was it accidental overdose? you thought this guy's method was 'classy,' you admired him. we had a pretty long, extended conversation about suicide, that's when we first became friends. i respected you and liked you, and still do, very much. talking about suicide is itself a symptom of bipolar illness. flirting with death...
> finally when all of my friends hated me and i was broke i tried to kill myself and then i moved home.
ok, a suicide attempt. another symptom, the big kahuna. that's why they wanted you on depakote.
> my dad's aunt is BP I, she's such a hoot, i love her...my dad says that one of her symptoms is "inappropriate laughter," which i could be accused of...but maybe i just have a weird sense of humor? depression runs in my family, my dads side favored ECT and my mom's side chooses alcohol and drugs. suicide is popular on both sides.i dunno, but it makes it clear to me, at least, that the diagnosis the hospital gave you is confirmed. it runs in families, and your family history of the illness is there, it's plain. your parents abused you terribly. your dad's family was treated with ECT, that tells us they had at least unipolar depression. drinking on your mother's side is a co-morbid symptom, so score another two points there. you cannot stop drinking, another few points.
> i think i'll up my dose of neurontin before trying anything more serious...because i don't think i'm BP I, i've never felt like i was on top of the worldthe symptoms aren't *only* feeling like uber-super-woman... there are many more.
>or had special powers or things to do for the worldagain, this god-like feeling about oneself is a single symptom of many on the list for hypo- or regular mania. you have many of the rest.
>i had a tiny hypomanic episode coming off effexor, but it lasted less than a day.
can you say what that felt like to you, how was it different from the behavior you describe above?
> often in high school i'd have the feeling that i just needed to leave right then, sometimes smoking a coupla cigs in the restroom temporarily did the trick, but other times i'd just ride the city bus home in the middle of the day.sounds like what happened the other day when you got sick at work.
>the truancy officers hauled me and my parents in. (rules rules...bleh...)
>
> how does it FEEL to be bipolar II?
i think, from reading and talking about it with shrinks and sufferers, and as a bipolar I, the symptoms are the same for both. in essence, it's a matter of severity, from hypo-mania all the way through to full-blown, psychotic mania.
> sorry to ramble on...
>
> thanks again, everyone...
maybe you can't accept the diagnosis because it pegs you, puts you in a box. that's how i felt when i was diagnosed, i was knocked over with the news. i cried and carried on. friends on Psychobabble told me to relax, the diagnosis isn't a fate, you can get better, etc. now i just see it as a box the dr checks on my records (the DSM code), so the insurance knows what to pay and what not to pay, so i can get meds...but later, the dx helped me understand myself better, helped me interpret past behaviors, and relationships with friends and family members. some were not so pleasant to dredge up. i felt horribly guilty about things i had done, etc. i realized my absent father must have passed it on to me, his behavior was drunk and messy and irresponsible.
accepting the dx is like knowing when to call a spade a spade.
(for susan too, with her dictionary handy:) from there, it's just a short step to knowing when to call a spade a f___ing shovel.
i'll stop now. let me know if there's anything i can do to help, my thoughts are with you...
W.
Posted by galtin on October 13, 2001, at 7:25:48
In reply to mixed state or lack of discipline?, posted by sar on October 11, 2001, at 17:59:03
>
> My supervisor told me that if i left, i'd get an "occurence" which would be the last straw for me 'cos i was already on Final Written Warning for tardiness/absences. so i could stay, leave and get fired, or just straight-up quit. i chose the latter.
>
> i walked home 4 miles, bar-hopping the whole way, and i cried really hard. they were nice when i signed all the forms to quit, cool people, but then a dam in my throat broke and i sobbed hard as i walked down the highway, i don't know why, i cried cried cried like i haven't in awhile.
>
> i've spent today wondering if i should have just sat it through at work. is this just lack of discipline, willpower? i know i wouldn't have *really* pulled my hair out, but when i get into these agitated moods i have to whatever i feel like doing--which usually involves leaving, crying, drinking, sacrificing whatever (like a job i like) just to be OUT.
>
> is this normal?Sar,
What's normal? And whatever it is, would you want to be it?Sounds like you had an awful experience. In past years (and decades) I have been fired from two jobs with the consequence of losing two careers. Although I was aggrieved at the time, it was pointed out to me that employers are under no obligation to tolerate poor job performance. I might have been able to cite a disability. But I was not fired for being disabled--I was fired for not doing my job. At some point or another I needed to accept this in order to get to the point of not getting fired anymore.
In this thread you have received a number of conjectured diagnoses. I don't know which, if any, are on the mark. But whatever it is, booze don't improve it, but makes it worse. By my drinking a tad more than "normal," I triggered a nearly suicidal depression. Plus,booze never improved the clarity or logic of my thinking but instead guaranteed that I would learn nothing about myself from myself.
Good luck,
galtin
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 13, 2001, at 9:50:58
In reply to Re: mixed state or lack of discipline? » sar, posted by Wendy B. on October 12, 2001, at 21:21:19
> Sar:
Wendy's absolutely right. Remember, these diagnoses are subjective - they'll change in the future anyway. It's just to help our doctors and us get a handle on things.
Are you afraid of feeling better? I have been in the past...
You Have to up the Neurontin if you're staying on it like Wendy says - it only stays in your system for 4 to 6 hours.
And I have to say that Depakote has been a pretty good med for me. The only lingering side effect after about two months for me has been a slight tremor in my hands. It is noticable, but I really do feel better. I know if I'd just cut out drinking completely, it would work really well.
I know I sound like an old maid (I'm thirty) but you sound So much like me when I was younger. (And still).
- K.
Posted by Kristi on October 13, 2001, at 19:25:27
In reply to Re: mixed state or lack of discipline?, posted by sar on October 12, 2001, at 12:36:41
Wow Sar.... you've had quite a long mean week huh? I'm real sorry to hear about your job... but like you said, the pay isn't worth the fighting. I probably would have done the same thing. Have you gotten another since I've been gone? Or is it break time?
I can't believe your family's attitude towards you. Actually, I can relate and I hope it's better. Did you end of moving in with your friend? Hang in there...... lv, Kristi
> hello again... :)
>
> Noa, how would i go about checking the hormonal angle. do you mean too much of a certain hormone, and which might it possibly be?
>
> Roo & Judy, a bunch of docs have wanted to put me on depakote, "the gold standard," one said, but i read about potential hair loss/ weight gain (i know the hair-loss can be helped with zinc and selenium) and had a thread over on PB about depakote versus neurontin, and i got a well-educated suggestion that i try neurontin before a "big gun" like depakote...i'm going to ask for an increase in neurontin next week, and possibly more klonopin. sometimes i forget to take my nightly dose of K, and take an extra the next day...i *really* like those days.
>
> re: bipolarity...it's all up in the air. i've never experienced mania, but before i was medicated (around this time last year) all i could do was lie in bed and cry, and then at night i'd jump up at get dressed up and drink a whole lot and lure someone back to my room...i drove my car as fast as it would go, i drank wine and went to a range to shoot pistols and shotguns...only somatic things mattered, i was sick of books and conversations, i just felt like screaming crying shouting laughing eating drinking fucking, those were the only important things...i had a loan from my parents to pay off some bills but i thought it would be better used on sexy clothes and bar tabs (but i was also going through a break-up, i might pin alot of this behavior on that).
>
> finally when all of my friends hated me and i was broke i tried to kill myself and then i moved home.
>
> my dad's aunt is BP I, she's such a hoot, i love her...my dad says that one of her symptoms is "inappropriate laughter," which i could be accused of...but maybe i just have a weird sense of humor? depression runs in my family, my dads side favored ECT and my mom's side chooses alcohol and drugs. suicide is popular on both sides.
>
> i think i'll up my dose of neurontin before trying anything more serious...because i don't think i'm BP I, i've never felt like i was on top of the world or had special powers or things to do for the world, i had a tiny hypomanic episode coming off effexor, but it lasted less than a day.
>
> often in high school i'd have the feeling that i just needed to leave right then, sometimes smoking a coupla cigs in the restroom temporarily did the trick, but other times i'd just ride the city bus home in the middle of the day. the truancy officers hauled me and my parents in. (rules rules...bleh...)
>
> how does it FEEL to be bipolar II?
>
> sorry to ramble on...
>
> thanks again, everyone...
Posted by Waterlily on October 14, 2001, at 16:49:37
In reply to Re: mixed state or lack of discipline?, posted by Noa on October 11, 2001, at 18:47:25
> also sounds like an anxiety attack, no?
>
That's immediately what came to mind when I read it. I had similar experiences on the job, but was given permission to take a walk a few times. The rest of the times I either just got through it or I would take Ativan.
Posted by sar on October 14, 2001, at 20:31:38
In reply to Re: mixed state or lack of discipline? » sar, posted by Wendy B. on October 12, 2001, at 21:21:19
> Sar,
>
> are you in denial? i ain't no doctor but:
>> we talked about hormones already this week. some suggested depo-prov others suggested 'the pill.' i think this is the hormonal connection, if i read noa's comment right. you were having suicidal pms, that's a hormonal problem. you need to ask about this, we established this a few days ago.
sorry if i get repetitive or forgetful. my full name is Sar Klonopinhead and i sometimes have the memory of a whiskeydrunk senior citizen...
> sar, i respect your desire to go with the smallest gun, neurontin. it needs to be upped, period, if that's what you want to stay on. maybe the prozac should come down, if possible.
well, my appt is on the 16th, i'll see what the pdoc says. this is one of the city's best pdocs, and i live in a big city.> this part, though, kills me --
>
> > re: bipolarity...it's all up in the air. i've never experienced mania, but before i was medicated (around this time last year) all i could do was lie in bed and cry, and then at night i'd jump up at get dressed up and drink a whole lot and lure someone back to my room...i drove my car as fast as it would go, i drank wine and went to a range to shoot pistols and shotguns...only somatic things mattered, i was sick of books and conversations, i just felt like screaming crying shouting laughing eating drinking fucking, those were the only important things...i had a loan from my parents to pay off some bills but i thought it would be better used on sexy clothes and bar tabs (but i was also going through a break-up, i might pin alot of this behavior on that).
>
> if this wasn't a perfect description of manic or at least heavy hypomanic behavior, i don't know what is. sorry to be blunt. i think you're blocking something when you say you've never been there. you have been manic. please consider carefully what you're inviting if you don't own up to your symptoms:
> racing around, ruining yourself with booze (it's a very common co-morbid symptom), screwing impulsively and without protection, shooting guns. then being admitted to a hospital for a suicide attempt, where they said you should be on depakote. getting caught driving dwi. getting sentenced for it. paying a fine. being on parole for *years.* (i.e. 'trouble wth the law'). in short, everything you could have done to get just a hair's breath from your own death, overdose, HIV, or killing others in the accident, etc.
Wendy, please don't ever apologize for being blunt, i cain't stand it when ppl beat around the bush! anyway, i know that that sounds like mania, but all during that time, i was *deeply* depressed, moreso than i've been in my entire life...none of it ever felt good, i just felt mad (both crazy and angry) and the whole drinking/driving/screwing/gun-shooting was a form of release. i do realize that my description contains many manic symptoms...that's why i'm in a quandry. in addition, all of this started right after a break-up with my first love (with whom i'd been, for all practical purposes, living with for years) and 2 semesters before i was scheduled to graduate college (with a liberal arts degree and absolutely no career aspirations...i think in grade 5 i wished to be an astronaut, but i haven't given any of that "working for a living" ballyhoo much thot since...). my drinking increased greatly...it seems alcohol brings out the crazees in me...all that driving/shooting/screwing was all done under the influence.> remember the thread months back, where a guy you knew did himself in overdosing on H? or was it accidental overdose? you thought this guy's method was 'classy,' you admired him. we had a pretty long, extended conversation about suicide, that's when we first became friends. i respected you and liked you, and still do, very much. talking about suicide is itself a symptom of bipolar illness. flirting with death...
it was morphine he OD'd on...last i heard, it was ruled an "accidental overdose," the kid did love drugs quite a bit, but how many physically healthy 24 year-olds leave a will, as he did? i'm sorry to be getting off topic here, it's just that i do remember that thread very well and i liked that you were kind of gently fighting with me to live.> > finally when all of my friends hated me and i was broke i tried to kill myself and then i moved home.
>
>
> ok, a suicide attempt. another symptom, the big kahuna. that's why they wanted you on depakote.
life is so weird...my lawyer told me that 1 in 8 people have been charged with DWI. i know two big handfuls of suicides/failed suicides...what does that mean? it almost doesn't seem like a big kahuna. i know i'm weird, but i think the will to survive battles the wish to die in almost any rational human mind...> i dunno, but it makes it clear to me, at least, that the diagnosis the hospital gave you is confirmed. it runs in families, and your family history of the illness is there, it's plain. your parents abused you terribly. your dad's family was treated with ECT, that tells us they had at least unipolar depression. drinking on your mother's side is a co-morbid symptom, so score another two points there. you cannot stop drinking, another few points.
yes, unipolar depression is *rampant* in my family. 80 years ago in the south they called it melancholy.> > i think i'll up my dose of neurontin before trying anything more serious...because i don't think i'm BP I, i've never felt like i was on top of the world
>
> the symptoms aren't *only* feeling like uber-super-woman... there are many more.
>
>
> >or had special powers or things to do for the worldi thought that the symptoms couldn't be drug-induced and had to last, what a week or 2 at a time, at least? i did all that stuff for many months but at the same time i was so horribly sad. drinking and shopping and dating made me feel better...as they would *anyone*...but i couldn't stop at one glass of wine, or to stores that i could afford, or at a kiss.
> >i had a tiny hypomanic episode coming off effexor, but it lasted less than a day.
>
> can you say what that felt like to you, how was it different from the behavior you describe above?
well, i took effexor for a month, and a day or so after my last dose i couldn't sleep very well, but i woke up very early (7 instead of noon) feeling wonderful, incredible, the air smelled and felt *great* and i felt like i was 5 years old and it was christmas, just absolutely content and energetic. i wrote a letter, took a long drive, paced about the house--and then the laughter started. first lots of giggles. then i got into some sort of ridiculous argument with my bro and i ended up rolling around on the floor laughing hysterically pounding my hands and fists like a cartoon character. later i took another restless drive and figured my life out, like where i would live and what i would do after graduation, i'd learn how to play the guitar etc etc....finally at around 4 or 5 in the evening i calmed down.> > often in high school i'd have the feeling that i just needed to leave right then, sometimes smoking a coupla cigs in the restroom temporarily did the trick, but other times i'd just ride the city bus home in the middle of the day.
>
> sounds like what happened the other day when you got sick at work.
yes...i suppose that's an anxiety attack, but it doesn't feel like anxiety. for me anxiety is shakiness, fearfulness, tense muscles...and the other day at work i just felt pissed off, teeth clenched slamming the phone down, *had* to get out out out...strong enough to quit with no worries, then dissolved into tears when my manager asked if i was okay...i cried in his arms for awhile...> >the truancy officers hauled me and my parents in. (rules rules...bleh...)
> maybe you can't accept the diagnosis because it pegs you, puts you in a box. that's how i felt when i was diagnosed, i was knocked over with the news. i cried and carried on. friends on Psychobabble told me to relax, the diagnosis isn't a fate, you can get better, etc. now i just see it as a box the dr checks on my records (the DSM code), so the insurance knows what to pay and what not to pay, so i can get meds...
>
> but later, the dx helped me understand myself better, helped me interpret past behaviors, and relationships with friends and family members. some were not so pleasant to dredge up. i felt horribly guilty about things i had done, etc. i realized my absent father must have passed it on to me, his behavior was drunk and messy and irresponsible.right, i know what you mean about acceptance, facing the light...my first diagnosis, about 5 years ago, was social anxiety disorder, which blew my mind when i read it in the medical record, i hadn't known such a disorder existed, but when i read about it i found that it described me perfectly. that's what i used to post most about on PB and PSB...then i started prozac and the anxiety melted away, i think god sent it down to hell, and now i could probably speak to an auditorium about my old social problems (which i used to find terribly embarrassing). i wondered after a bit if the social anxiety caused the depression, now that i don't have much social anxiety i can say that there's something else there, like i still feel depressed at heart but there's something else...bipolar, borderline, "adjustment disorder," who knows? i think it will take a few more years to know...
> accepting the dx is like knowing when to call a spade a spade.
>
> (for susan too, with her dictionary handy:) from there, it's just a short step to knowing when to call a spade a f___ing shovel.
heh heh...i know. i've considered myself depressed from age 12. i hesitate with the bipolar dx because i'm so much less sure of it. i'd actually *prefer* bipolarity to unipolar depression, bipolarity has a certain kind of *kick* and *verve,* i think my spade is "mentally ill," in exactly what way i don't know, but i can't wait to find out...> i'll stop now. let me know if there's anything i can do to help, my thoughts are with you...
>
> W.
keep posting, challenging and helping all of us...go make me a sandwich... :) ....ommm...thats about it...thanks Wendy, i so appreciate your vigilance and respect your point of view.love,
sar
Posted by sar on October 14, 2001, at 22:07:23
In reply to Re: mixed state or lack of discipline? Sar, posted by galtin on October 13, 2001, at 7:25:48
>
>
> What's normal? And whatever it is, would you want to be it?i don't know what "normal" is...i've got pretty low standards for "normal"--but it would not involve daily thoughts of suicide. it would involve being a 23 yr-old woman instead of a flaky drifting urchin-girl--holding down an appropriate job, finishing school, finding a home...
> Sounds like you had an awful experience. In past years (and decades) I have been fired from two jobs with the consequence of losing two careers. Although I was aggrieved at the time, it was pointed out to me that employers are under no obligation to tolerate poor job performance. I might have been able to cite a disability. But I was not fired for being disabled--I was fired for not doing my job. At some point or another I needed to accept this in order to get to the point of not getting fired anymore.
i'm really glad you pointed this out...i'm sorry you lost 2 careers, that must have been horrible, babe! your post helped me to remember that i need to learn how to *deal,* i.e., taking a walk or sitting in the restroom for awhile instead of just leaving. i didn't have to leave. i felt i had to leave, but i really didn't.it was kind of senseless.
> In this thread you have received a number of conjectured diagnoses. I don't know which, if any, are on the mark. But whatever it is, booze don't improve it, but makes it worse. By my drinking a tad more than "normal," I triggered a nearly suicidal depression. Plus,booze never improved the clarity or logic of my thinking but instead guaranteed that I would learn nothing about myself from myself.yes, drinking is an issue for me. former boozers all have the same wisdom to dispense so i believe it must be true, but i'm riding this wave for a bit...
>
> Good luck,
>
>
> galtinthanks, galtin
hope you are well,
sar
Posted by sar on October 14, 2001, at 22:16:21
In reply to Re: mixed state or lack of discipline?-Sar, posted by Krazy Kat on October 13, 2001, at 9:50:58
> Are you afraid of feeling better? I have been in the past...yes. i'm terrified of feeling better. feeling better means that i'll have to be a fully functioning human being instead of being a drunk sponging off my parents. feeling better will entail some form of mediocrity...a small apartment, a low-paying job, finishing school, fighting the masses for a job i don't really want anyway. i'm really comfortable with sadness, it's my baby-momma, i don't know any other way. i don't think i've ever truly felt good...
> You Have to up the Neurontin if you're staying on it like Wendy says - it only stays in your system for 4 to 6 hours.
yes, i agree. i can't feel a difference anymore. i swallow these horsepills 3 times daily and i can't say its made a difference.
> And I have to say that Depakote has been a pretty good med for me. The only lingering side effect after about two months for me has been a slight tremor in my hands. It is noticable, but I really do feel better. I know if I'd just cut out drinking completely, it would work really well.
no hair loss/weight gain? in what way do you feel better? can you describe how you feel?my hands used to shake out of pure anxiety! i would mind slight trembling...how much are you drinking nowadays?
> I know I sound like an old maid (I'm thirty) but you sound So much like me when I was younger. (And still).
you don't sound like an old maid, you've always sounded like a tough cookie! do you think it's the Texas water? :) what do you do for a living, etc?
love,
sar
Posted by sar on October 14, 2001, at 22:18:31
In reply to Re: mixed state or lack of discipline?, posted by Waterlily on October 14, 2001, at 16:49:37
> > also sounds like an anxiety attack, no?
> >
> That's immediately what came to mind when I read it. I had similar experiences on the job, but was given permission to take a walk a few times. The rest of the times I either just got through it or I would take Ativan.i'll have to discuss this with my pdoc. i'm sure my employers would have let me take a walk if i could have described what was going on. thanks for the input...
sar
Posted by Noa on October 15, 2001, at 14:23:54
In reply to Re: mixed state or lack of discipline? » Waterlily, posted by sar on October 14, 2001, at 22:18:31
Sar, I was thinking a couple of things: First, there is some literature (I'll have to search to give you the refs) on women and rapid cycling bipoar spectrum disorders that suggests a link between hormonal fluctuations and mood states (like mixed states with irritable hypomania, etc.). Have you noticed any patterns in terms of the timing of your moods and your monthly cycle?
The second thing I was thinking of is could you be in perimenopause? Could loss of estrogen be contributing to these mixed states?
Have you seen the book Screaming to be Heard by Elizabeth Lee Vliet, MD? It is very comprehensive, coving all sorts of hormonal issues for women across the life cycle. Another book I've glanced at is called Women's Moods and Iforget the author at the moment (will get back to you, although it might be listed on Dr. Bob's book page.
How to get it checked out? I guess a good gynocologist or endocrinologist, although I'd probably start with a gyno, esp one who collaborates with endos if there is the need.
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 16, 2001, at 9:53:26
In reply to Re: mixed state or lack of discipline? » Krazy Kat , posted by sar on October 14, 2001, at 22:16:21
Sar:
I'm afraid of feeling better, too. But it doesn't have to be like you described. For one thing, when you DO feel better, you'll be shocked at the amount of confidence you gain, confidence to do what you want to in life, not to take some low-paying job or a job you don't want.
Also, although this may seem like a contradiction, you'll have to realize that this "illness" will be with you forever and that you will have to deal with it accordingly. So, now, you're seen as a "drunk" as you stated. Then you'll be seen as a Manic Depressive, or whatever, and you can very rightfully acknowledge the limitations it puts on you. I have finally had to admit that I can't handle the kind of stressful job I used to. So what? I go on and do something else. And I feel better doing it.
Neurontin - Switch to something else if it's not helping - don't wait too long and get frustrated like I did...
Depakote - no hair loss or weight gain at all. I just went through a bad weekend of drinking (well, bad for me). Had too much wine. I don't drink during the week usually, but am still having trouble kicking the weekend habit. It probably doesn't help, but I take Milk Thistle to help my liver. I am going to try to talk to my pdoc about it next time. It has a little to do with some left over anxiety I think, so maybe I need something else in my cocktail.
By all accounts, it is best not to drink on Depakote. I really don't feel like drinking on it most of the time. Certainly the best deterrent I've had. Frankly, I'm sure you shouldn't drink on any of these meds, but many of us do.
Depakote has helped me with a few things:
1. My thoughts don't 'race' as much. My head always felt as if it were going to explode - thoughts going everywhere - very hard to pin down. Also, I had trouble with repetitive thoughts, usually horrible things, and Dep. has helped. I think more linerally now.
2. Mania - I had two hypomanic episodes this summer before my big crash - Depakote actually got me out of my depression almost immediately and has kept the mania at bay.
3. Reason - I can reason things through better.
4. Visions - I was having visions and those have ceased.
5. Depression - has been kept at bay as well. I'm also on 60 mg Prozac but there's controversy re: the need for an AD with Dep. - I'm just too nervous right now to stop it.Basically, with that last depression, I felt like being hospitalized and dying and just insane. Now I just feel a little insane.
A tough cookie, the Texas water... interesting. I don't feel very tough, but thank you for the compliment. When I'm depressed I'm certainly not tough. When manic, yeah, I act pretty tough. In between, I'm in between. :) Texans all seem to somehow be related. Perhaps it Is the water. I'm always comfortable around Texans, even though I'm rather quiet and subdued. New Yorkers are like the Northeastern version, which is why I think I like it so much.
Work - I haven't Really worked for about a year. I was most recently in Electronic Publishing. Did a few projects after we moved out of the city. Now I am contemplating starting my own business that would encompass pet sitting, dog writing, dog and cat goodies - it would be both a local and internet-based biz.
I can't go back to an office. I just hated it.
Well, ya got a Long reply.
I hope this helped.
- K.
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