![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 25, 2001, at 23:52:58
[from http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010522/msgs/64286.html]
> > I guess the question is: how much does my friend need me & how bad am I right now?
>
> But in the long run I am better off with friends and if I stand them up too often....
>
> > Thinking about it, unless you've experienced this 'miracle' euthymia, it's probably v. difficult to appreciate. Things just become (became) so easy...
> >
>
> Yes. They do. And its not true that it's always the result of hard work (unfair isn't it). But because it can be so easy, sometimes, to get to 100% and so miraculous once it has happened it's tempting to believe that anything less, or more difficult, isn't worth bothering with. In the meantime 50% can still be a huge improvement. If you can get there only by putting in extra effort so what. It's STILL miraculous.
Posted by SLS on May 27, 2001, at 2:23:52
In reply to Redirected: Relying on meds, posted by Dr. Bob on May 25, 2001, at 23:52:58
Hi Mair.
I just walked in the door and decided to get my fix of PB before going to bed.
I really don't know where this post belongs, but I'll head in the direction suggested by Dr. Bob.
After reading your post, I couldn't help but to want to respond to it somehow. I am unfamiliar with your posts, probably because I so rarely peer around the corner into Psycho-Social-Babbleland. Unfortunately, your words and those of Jane ring true for me also. Damned if the things that are so laborious or impossible for me while I am depressed don't become effortless when the depression has remitted. I can't help but to smile and shake my head to watch how difficult some things are for healthy people that for me have become so easy. I feel so free and so strong. It hardly makes sense to me that these same things can again become so mammoth and overwhelming once I relapse and am once again crushed under the oppressive weight of the altered state of consciousness that is depression.
> I've taken and am taking meds which do make a difference,
Me too.
> but these are by no means miracle drugs and I can get very deeply depressed in spite of them.
I am fortunate enough to have experienced brief periods of time (sometimes a few hours, sometimes a few days or weeks, and once a few months) for which the word "miracle" applies well to the drugs I was taking at the time. My god... From these instances, I have been shown how rich and fulfilling an experience life can be for me. I have no doubt that I am blessed with gifts that will allow me to self-actualize and cultivate peak experiences. I don't need no MDMA to attain a state of ecstasy. For me, ecstasy will simply be a life in the altered state of consciousness that is remission of depression. I ain't asking for much. Just free me from depression. I'll do the rest. Building things with hard work can be so rewarding, and is often a lot of fun. Yeah, I know. Plenty of things are going to suck too. They just won't suck as much as they would if I were depressed at the same time.
Talk about babbling... jeesh.
> Because of this, experimenting with other meds is pretty scary to me. There is the issue of whether they'll work and how I'll feel if they don't work (this is the worry that comes with feeling that one more possible alternative has been taken away from you - these opportunities are frightenly finite).Bullseye. Bullseye. Bullseye.
Your worry betrays your logical mind. Logic can be a real liability sometimes, if not a total pain in the ass. Ignorance is bliss?
> There's also the issue of how miserable the side effects will be, how long you'll have to endure them before you have any clue whether the drug is even going to be worth staying on. The last issue maybe is how your experimentation will interfere with normal functioning in the meantime.
>
> When you're depressed or undergoing difficult drug changes, it's pretty impossible to keep up with friendships - there is, for me, a natural inclination to isolate myself. I've had to grieve the loss of several friendships that have dissipated from lack of nurturing. I'm not sure I know a way around it and I've never felt comfortable trying to explain why I've disappeared.It seems like I am looking in a mirror.
> Of course this produces a lot of guilt. I'd love to hear how other people deal with this.
Acceptance and grieving through catharsis was a very important step for me in dealing with what my illness has done to my life and my relationships with the people who were once a part of it. I have had to let go of one who was my best friend, my best man, and whom I loved enough such that I was prevented from killing myself because it meant having to leave him. It was not my father nor mother nor sister nor brother nor grandmother nor dog. It was my best friend who I cried for. At that time, it had been perhaps five years that we hadn't spoken. I have seen him only on those occasions when my depression remitted. Unfortunately, it was I who had to seek him out. I did so within a few days of the arrival of improvement. I needed to act quickly, given the brevity of previous "awakenings". The last time I sought him out, I remained partially, but substantially improved for about two weeks. We did a lot of different things together during this time. Regardless of how many years separated our reunions, it always seemed like we had just seen each other yesterday. It was like we had never been apart. Funny thing though. Because he had really only known me as the depressed Scott (my depression began to emerge by age 10 or 11), he was meeting the real Scott for the first time. One day, out of nowhere, while we were talking about something of little significance, he said to me, "You know, I really like you." I was a bit surprised and taken back by this, but I understood it completely. Actually, I must also reintroduce myself to my own family. I have to be careful that they not be too overwhelmed by this new force of nature. :-) To them, an unfamiliar personality with an unrealized energy and effectiveness has emerged. Anyway, getting back to my best lost best friend, it was during this period of remission that I scolded him for not calling me. He told me he didn't call because he thought that I wouldn't want him to while I was so sick. I assured him that I did want him to call. That was four, no, five years ago. I haven't spoken to him since.
I have arrived at a new place with all of this. I am not 100% responsible for the development of gulfs between myself and other people whom I was close to. Yes, it is the depression that has precipitated a chain of events. No, the chain of events is not preordained and without the participation of other human beings with free will. Yes, it is tragic. No, it is not your choice to be depressed, and you are not responsible for its consequences. When I awaken next, it is my intention to follow a path that I build for myself forward rather than attempt to walk backwards in an attempt to arrive at a point in time and space that no longer exists. I don't want to follow someone else's path and try to catch up with them. I owe to no one the reestablishment of a relationship. I have no old friends that I feel a responsibility to communicate with. I owe only to myself the making of connections that are best for me in the present and is to enhance my future, even if none of them are to be with those that I once had them with. It will be for me a rebirth of sorts. Ah, the excitement of the exploration and building of the new... I can't wait!
I hope I've related to you the sorts things you were interested in.
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 27, 2001, at 13:12:27
In reply to Re: Redirected: Relying on meds » Mair, posted by SLS on May 27, 2001, at 2:23:52
Posted by mair on May 26, 2001, at 21:49:04
In reply to Re: Sorry about redirect, posted by Jane D on May 26, 2001, at 13:51:57
Jane - don't sweat the redirect. If the thread hadn't been redirected, I'd have never seen the thread and I find that some of what you say rings true for me. I'm I guess a partial responder. I've taken and am taking meds which do make a difference, but these are by no means miracle drugs and I can get very deeply depressed in spite of them. Because of this, experimenting with other meds is pretty scary to me. There is the issue of whether they'll work and how I'll feel if they don't work (this is the worry that comes with feeling that one more possible alternative has been taken away from you - these opportunities are frightenly finite). There's also the issue of how miserable the side effects will be, how long you'll have to endure them before you have any clue whether the drug is even going to be worth staying on. The last issue maybe is how your experimentation will interfere with normal functioning in the meantime.
When you're depressed or undergoing difficult drug changes, it's pretty impossible to keep up with friendships - there is, for me, a natural inclination to isolate myself. I've had to grieve the loss of several friendships that have dissipated from lack of nurturing. I'm not sure I know a way around it and I've never felt comfortable trying to explain why I've disappeared. Of course this produces alot of guilt. I'd love to hear how other people deal with this.
Mair
Posted by Jane D on May 27, 2001, at 13:59:48
In reply to Redirected, from mair: Sorry about redirect, posted by Dr. Bob on May 27, 2001, at 13:12:27
Mair,
Thanks. You say everything so much more clearly than I can. One of the things I have gained from reading this board is the right words to express things that I feel but can't articulate. This in turn helps me to think about these things.
Jane
Posted by shelliR on May 27, 2001, at 15:12:24
In reply to Re: Friendships and other problems Mair, posted by Jane D on May 27, 2001, at 13:59:48
> Mair, (Can I still think of you as K?)
First of all, did your post get lost in the redirect? I can't find it. Anyway, I was basically able to read it again from someone's rely.
> When you're depressed or undergoing difficult drug changes, it's pretty impossible to keep up with friendships - there is, for me, a natural inclination to isolate myself. I've had to grieve the loss of several friendships that have dissipated from lack of nurturing. I'm not sure I know a way around it and I've never felt comfortable trying to explain why I've disappeared. <2000 was a really bad year for me and I did not keep up with friendships. Didn't cancel plans, just didn't make them. On New Years eve, this year, I made New Years cards and sent them to several people who I hadn't been in contact with, but didn't want to lose from my life. It's amazing how things just sort of picked up again, not with great intensity, but the connection was still there, and I got calls and invitations. Even though not depressed, lots of people in my life are crazy busy, with jobs, and kids, illnesses, ill parents, etc. I don't think anyone even thought to take it personally that I had withdrawn for a while. Everyone knows I get crazy with work and a few very close friends know I just get crazy.
My point (!). Don't assume these friendships are really lost. I think when you are ready, friendships can reestablish themselves easier than one might anticipate.
Shelli
Posted by mair on May 28, 2001, at 6:56:27
In reply to Re: Friendships and other problems Mair, posted by Jane D on May 27, 2001, at 13:59:48
> Jane - you are not at all inarticulate. It helps all of us to see how someone else puts into words what we're feeling. It's particularly so here because people here generally know, from experience, what you're talking about - they can pick up on what you're trying to say so much more easily. I'm always pretty blown away when someone identifies with the experience I'm writing about. When I first started coming on this board, it was great to suddenly have this "I am not alone" feeling.
Mair
Posted by mair on May 28, 2001, at 7:19:26
In reply to Re: Friendships and other problems Mair, posted by shelliR on May 27, 2001, at 15:12:24
> > Mair, (Can I still think of you as K?)
>
Of course. I changed it because it started feeling not anonymous. I also had in mind what I think was your observation many months ago, that it was easier to think of people in terms of a name that sounded like a name, and not initials.> First of all, did your post get lost in the redirect? I can't find it. Anyway, I was basically able to read it again from someone's rely.
>
> I'm still trying to figure out how to deal with redirected posts. When I first saw Jane's redirected post, I went to the URL so I could read the previous posts. I responded there (on PB), and my post was redirected also.> > Don't assume these friendships are really lost. I think when you are ready, friendships can reestablish themselves easier than one might anticipate.
> This is a nice thought. My pessimism is driven by the fact that twice in the last 2 years or so I've written long letters to people who were once very good friends, but with whom I had lost contact for quite awhile. (I have great intentions every year of sending out Xmas cards to at least keep in touch on that surface level, but i can never seem to get my act together enough to do that). In these letters, I explained a little about my struggles with depression. Neither person ever responded to my letter. I have no idea whether I said something in the letter to offend them, whether they just didn't want to hear about the "depressed me", whether for whatever reason they had no interest in rekindling that relationship, or whether they were just pissed. (one of these persons was someone who had written me a long letter a few years before that. I was trying to explain why I hadn't responded) I've been very unrevealing about what I've been through. Very few people know. I have this huge fear that I'll put people off by talking about it. On the other hand, it's been such a huge piece of my recent life, that I think it's an impediment to lots of friendships for me not to talk about it. It's the wall that separates me from other people. I've never figured out how to strike that balance between discussing it and not talking about it too much.
Mair
Posted by mair on May 28, 2001, at 7:46:31
In reply to Re: Redirected: Relying on meds » Mair, posted by SLS on May 27, 2001, at 2:23:52
> Scott
I used to post under the name of ksvt. Aren't you the guy who's been through an unimaginable number of meds changes? I've always admired your attitude, and during a few particularly low periods when I was either contemplating meds changes or undergoing them, your story has been a source of inspiration.
It was very interesting to read your post and Shelli's. Shelli says I think, that those friendships haven't languished as much as I may think, and they can be rejuvenated fairly easily. You seem to be saying, look forward not backward, forget about the lost friendships and look forward to new ones. (I hope I'm paraphrasing reasonably correctly). This does hold a certain allure. The conclusion I draw from what has happened with some friendships, is just that it is an indication of how bad i was with "friend relationships" to begin with. It's definitely less punitive to think instead of new friendships and the infinite possibilies for the future. Unfortunately, the wall between me and my friends was there before I got depressed and I have no reason to think that it won't be there after (if?) I achieve a firmer, more lasting remission. Maybe I should draw some hope from the fact that I'm real tired of my pretense. I would rather be more honest this time around.
BTW - you seemed to have fun with the friend that you reconnected with. Why do you think you never heard from him again and why didn't you try to contact him?
Mair
Hi Mair.
>
> I just walked in the door and decided to get my fix of PB before going to bed.
>
> I really don't know where this post belongs, but I'll head in the direction suggested by Dr. Bob.
>
> After reading your post, I couldn't help but to want to respond to it somehow. I am unfamiliar with your posts, probably because I so rarely peer around the corner into Psycho-Social-Babbleland. Unfortunately, your words and those of Jane ring true for me also. Damned if the things that are so laborious or impossible for me while I am depressed don't become effortless when the depression has remitted. I can't help but to smile and shake my head to watch how difficult some things are for healthy people that for me have become so easy. I feel so free and so strong. It hardly makes sense to me that these same things can again become so mammoth and overwhelming once I relapse and am once again crushed under the oppressive weight of the altered state of consciousness that is depression.
>
> > I've taken and am taking meds which do make a difference,
>
> Me too.
>
> > but these are by no means miracle drugs and I can get very deeply depressed in spite of them.
>
> I am fortunate enough to have experienced brief periods of time (sometimes a few hours, sometimes a few days or weeks, and once a few months) for which the word "miracle" applies well to the drugs I was taking at the time. My god... From these instances, I have been shown how rich and fulfilling an experience life can be for me. I have no doubt that I am blessed with gifts that will allow me to self-actualize and cultivate peak experiences. I don't need no MDMA to attain a state of ecstasy. For me, ecstasy will simply be a life in the altered state of consciousness that is remission of depression. I ain't asking for much. Just free me from depression. I'll do the rest. Building things with hard work can be so rewarding, and is often a lot of fun. Yeah, I know. Plenty of things are going to suck too. They just won't suck as much as they would if I were depressed at the same time.
>
> Talk about babbling... jeesh.
>
>
> > Because of this, experimenting with other meds is pretty scary to me. There is the issue of whether they'll work and how I'll feel if they don't work (this is the worry that comes with feeling that one more possible alternative has been taken away from you - these opportunities are frightenly finite).
>
> Bullseye. Bullseye. Bullseye.
>
> Your worry betrays your logical mind. Logic can be a real liability sometimes, if not a total pain in the ass. Ignorance is bliss?
>
> > There's also the issue of how miserable the side effects will be, how long you'll have to endure them before you have any clue whether the drug is even going to be worth staying on. The last issue maybe is how your experimentation will interfere with normal functioning in the meantime.
> >
> > When you're depressed or undergoing difficult drug changes, it's pretty impossible to keep up with friendships - there is, for me, a natural inclination to isolate myself. I've had to grieve the loss of several friendships that have dissipated from lack of nurturing. I'm not sure I know a way around it and I've never felt comfortable trying to explain why I've disappeared.
>
> It seems like I am looking in a mirror.
>
> > Of course this produces a lot of guilt. I'd love to hear how other people deal with this.
>
> Acceptance and grieving through catharsis was a very important step for me in dealing with what my illness has done to my life and my relationships with the people who were once a part of it. I have had to let go of one who was my best friend, my best man, and whom I loved enough such that I was prevented from killing myself because it meant having to leave him. It was not my father nor mother nor sister nor brother nor grandmother nor dog. It was my best friend who I cried for. At that time, it had been perhaps five years that we hadn't spoken. I have seen him only on those occasions when my depression remitted. Unfortunately, it was I who had to seek him out. I did so within a few days of the arrival of improvement. I needed to act quickly, given the brevity of previous "awakenings". The last time I sought him out, I remained partially, but substantially improved for about two weeks. We did a lot of different things together during this time. Regardless of how many years separated our reunions, it always seemed like we had just seen each other yesterday. It was like we had never been apart. Funny thing though. Because he had really only known me as the depressed Scott (my depression began to emerge by age 10 or 11), he was meeting the real Scott for the first time. One day, out of nowhere, while we were talking about something of little significance, he said to me, "You know, I really like you." I was a bit surprised and taken back by this, but I understood it completely. Actually, I must also reintroduce myself to my own family. I have to be careful that they not be too overwhelmed by this new force of nature. :-) To them, an unfamiliar personality with an unrealized energy and effectiveness has emerged. Anyway, getting back to my best lost best friend, it was during this period of remission that I scolded him for not calling me. He told me he didn't call because he thought that I wouldn't want him to while I was so sick. I assured him that I did want him to call. That was four, no, five years ago. I haven't spoken to him since.
>
> I have arrived at a new place with all of this. I am not 100% responsible for the development of gulfs between myself and other people whom I was close to. Yes, it is the depression that has precipitated a chain of events. No, the chain of events is not preordained and without the participation of other human beings with free will. Yes, it is tragic. No, it is not your choice to be depressed, and you are not responsible for its consequences. When I awaken next, it is my intention to follow a path that I build for myself forward rather than attempt to walk backwards in an attempt to arrive at a point in time and space that no longer exists. I don't want to follow someone else's path and try to catch up with them. I owe to no one the reestablishment of a relationship. I have no old friends that I feel a responsibility to communicate with. I owe only to myself the making of connections that are best for me in the present and is to enhance my future, even if none of them are to be with those that I once had them with. It will be for me a rebirth of sorts. Ah, the excitement of the exploration and building of the new... I can't wait!
>
> I hope I've related to you the sorts things you were interested in.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by SLS on May 28, 2001, at 11:49:07
In reply to Re: Redirected: Relying on meds , posted by mair on May 28, 2001, at 7:46:31
Hi Mair.
> I used to post under the name of ksvt. Aren't you the guy who's been through an unimaginable number of meds changes? I've always admired your attitude, and during a few particularly low periods when I was either contemplating meds changes or undergoing them, your story has been a source of inspiration.
Sometimes I think that I might be exaggerating things. There are so many people here who experience excruciating pain and frustration, and whose lives have been completely destroyed by these illnesses. Maybe I just complain too much. I don't know. One thing I do know is that were it not for the small improvement I receive from combining Lamictal and a tricyclic, I would be lying motionless and numb on the couch and staring into space. There is no way that you would see SLS on PB. That is not an exaggeration, but I try not to get sucked into "poor me".
> It was very interesting to read your post and Shelli's. Shelli says I think, that those friendships haven't languished as much as I may think, and they can be rejuvenated fairly easily.
I am sure that they can and are. There are so many different things that each person as an individual experiences, and so many life situations that act to determine what is uniquely best for that individual. When I read Shelli's post, the things that she foresaw herself wanting to do seemed to resonate well with what little I know about her. Not only that, but everything she felt motivated and anticipating being able to do could easily be a path that I might choose for myself should I feel it right for me to do so at some point in time.
> You seem to be saying, look forward not backward, forget about the lost friendships and look forward to new ones. (I hope I'm paraphrasing reasonably correctly).
Pretty much. The two words that I would change are "forget" and "look". It is my desire not to forget about relationships lost, and to be able to carry with me always the good memories and lessons they have provided me. I hope I am always able to look back so that I can better know where I am going or want to go. I'll look backward. I just don't want to walk backward.
> This does hold a certain allure.
It might hold an allure because it eliminates the risk of encountering rejection or disinterest. I'm sure there are many possible reasons why it would be alluring for any one individual. Starting out fresh and building a new life with a new me in my own way is exciting. I can foresee seeking out my friend - once again - when I feel that doing so is an assertive step forward into something new and healthy for me. I do not fear rejection, not because I feel confident that there will not be any, but because at such time, ideally, I will have established my core self emotionally as well as establish myself situationally. To be rejected by a lifelong friend will cause me to shake my head and say to myself "What a shame." I have already grieved the loss. My ego (Freudian) will remain intact as I take my next step forward. Such a scenario resonates well with my character and my past experiences. Of this I am sure. I really, really, really hope that I can begin a *new* relationship with my old friend, as I will always consider him one. He is already imbedded in my heart, no matter what is to happen.
It is very important to understand that the course of my illness has been one of all or nothing. The few brief periods that I found myself improved enough to seek and maintain relationships, the degree of improvement has been rather dramatic. Otherwise, I am too vegetative to do so. There has not been an extended period during which I have been partially improved enough to maintain a social life.
> The conclusion I draw from what has happened with some friendships, is just that it is an indication of how bad i was with "friend relationships" to begin with.
Perhaps your conclusion is accurate for you. Generally speaking, I can't offer enough personal experiences to refute it because I have never felt that I was much good with "friend relationships" either. I do note, however, that you used the words "some" and "was". I can't help but to believe that my not being "good" with these relationships is in large part the direct result of my always being at least mildly depressed since age 10.
What I can offer you to help you evaluate the dynamics of your relationships is how I functioned socially during my periods of remission. I became very gregarious, likeable (believe it or not) :-), and motivated to engage people and participate in activities. Even more surprising is that I made myself emotionally available and vulnerable, and seemed to encourage others to do the same with me. During the two week period that I described in my previous post when I had remitted enough to seek out my friend and spend time with him, I felt for the first time in the sixteen years since we met each other as children a true friendship with him. We felt closer to each other than at any time in the past. One day, all we did was to visit his grandmother in her nursing home, take care of some housekeeping chores around his house, follow up on some of his managerial responsibilities at work, and talk about cars. It was the most wonderful day I have ever experienced. I felt that it would be a little strange for me to tell him that, but I couldn't help myself. When he told me that it was for him also, I knew that we had both shared a peak experience. What an incredible friendship we had on that day. He called me frequently during those few weeks. Besides BS-ing about the usual things friends BS about, the purpose of many of the calls were to arrange our schedules to do things together. HE SOUGHT ME OUT. I relapsed. He stopped calling.
I would say that this story demonstrates well that:
1. *I* wasn't "bad" with friendships; the character and dynamics of friendships were greatly influenced, if not determined, by the depressive state itself. The depression was the culprit, not me.
2. The disappearance of my friendships was not indicative exclusively of my being "bad" with them, but was the direct result of the emergence of depression. I found that friendships wax and wane as depression comes and goes. As I described above, the dynamics responsible for this include the reactions and behaviors of others. They are active participants in the dissolution of relationships.
> It's definitely less punitive to think instead of new friendships and the infinite possibilities for the future.
Yes, it is.
> Unfortunately, the wall between me and my friends was there before I got depressed and I have no reason to think that it won't be there after (if?) I achieve a firmer, more lasting remission.
See above.
The wall that I felt had prevented me from connecting fully with my friend for years came down immediately and completely within days of remission.
Perhaps you became mildly depressed or dysthymic far earlier than you realize. Perhaps not. I was. I can now see how greatly my childhood dysthymia and adolescent depression contributed do my inability to establish or maintain close friendships.
> Maybe I should draw some hope from the fact that I'm real tired of my pretense. I would rather be more honest this time around.
I hope it is the character of your friends to allow you to do so openly and easily. I found that many of the people with whom I have had relationships have welcomed honesty. However, this has not guaranteed the continuance of relationships during protracted periods of depression.
> BTW - you seemed to have fun with the friend that you reconnected with.
I did.
> Why do you think you never heard from him again
1. He is somewhat hypersocial. He is a very gregarious and likeable person who attracts almost everyone around him. He maintains relationships with many, many people. Out of sight, out of mind.
2. I think he loves me too much to see me suffer and be so grotesquely crippled by this illness.
> and why didn't you try to contact him?
I did. Perhaps there will come a time when I do again.
I tend not to follow scripts, especially those written by others. I try not to write too many of my own.
- Scott
Posted by shelliR on May 28, 2001, at 13:27:47
In reply to Re: Friendships and other problems Mair » shelliR, posted by mair on May 28, 2001, at 7:19:26
Hi Mair. I do understand your dilemma. I think you are saying that for your friendships to have meaning that friends must understand about your depression, because it is such a large part of your life.
I guess I have become more socially superficial than I used to be. The New Years Cards I sent were very light in tone. I don't think I was trying to repair relationships, just sort of bring them up to the present. Basically just trying to have people back in my life to share things with when I am feeling okay--going to art museums, movies, dinner, etc.
I don't really know how to talk about depression, and I think you're right that people don't really want to hear too much about it, anyway. I think it makes us all feel helpless. I basically only talk about depression with my therapist, with a mention here or there with a few friends about new meds I'm trying etc. I think friends serve to get me out of myself, and for me that is good, when it is possible. Some friends came to visit me in the hospital, and that felt nice, sort of like of course they knew, but mostly I would tell stories about the craziness and paradoxes in hospitals. I guess there is some part of me that feels like I must be entertaining as a friend. And I am a good story teller in general and have a wide range of interests so I kind of keep the conversation at that level alot.
I have lost friendships through the years, and I do think my intensity had a large part in that. Also unrealistic expectations. So maybe I am just trying something different for me. Also like you, I have to put so much time into work, that work becomes my priority when dealing with time.
I think for me the operative word is "mention" in dealing with depression. I don't want to be living a lie, but for me somehow "mentioning" depression, rather than engaging in discussions about my depression seems the most comfortable place for me.My neighbor has cancer (chances are very good that she'll fully recover). At the beginning when she told me, I wanted to keep talking about it because I thought that's what she wanted. But after about five minutes, she said, S., can we talk about something else--I'm really tired of this being the focus of everything. Now when I see her she keeps me updated on how many chemo sessions left and when she starts radiation, but that's just a few minutes of each conversation. Last time we talked mainly about the castle birthday party she did for her four year old, which I could tell she felt really good about. So maybe that's sort of how I feel about depression.
Is it because your depression impacts your family so much that you feel that to understand you, your friends must also understand the depression?
Shelli
Posted by dougb on May 28, 2001, at 15:05:45
Jane:
>I'm another long time lurker - over a year - who recently decided to crawl out into the light.
--Welcome!
>(I guess I can say no to that diagnostic question about impulsiveness :-)
---Sense of humor too!
> I risk the abyss again.
---Ditto that sentiment, sounds like a good title for a poem.
>If I don't go am I being realistic about being sick or just a selfish jerk.
--- You do not sound like a selfish jerk to me, you sound like a sensitive caring person who is coping with a very dificult illness.
Please admit same to yourself, then start being kinder to your self.
I always used to beat myself up: not good enough, not trying hard enough, not worthy, etc, etc.
A turning point for me, that is when i started to get better, was when i started saying: "Doug (that would be me), you are s-i-c-k, you do not want to be sick, if you were not sick, you would do many things diferently.
Others will either realize that you are s-i-c-k and they will make a caring, loving adjustment in the way they treat you, if they do not - than that is _their_ defect not yours".
Sister, do your best to keep your heart in the right place, do what you are able to comfortably do.
Love your self, be kind in to your self in your thinking.
Do not let others offer unkind observations about you, if they do so they are either ignorant or very small people, not worthy of causing self-reproach on your side.
Love
Doug B
Posted by Jane D on May 29, 2001, at 9:42:59
In reply to Re: Welcome Jane!, posted by dougb on May 28, 2001, at 15:05:45
Doug,
Wow! What a welcome!Where were you with your great advice about self acceptance 10 years ago. Of course, I wouldn't have believed you then. I would have "known" with absolute certainty that you were wrong and I really was undeserving. You, of course, clearly are not (undeserving that is). Irrational?
> I always used to beat myself up: not good enough, not trying hard enough, not worthy, etc, etc.
> A turning point for me, that is when i started to get better, was when i started saying: "Doug (that would be me), you are s-i-c-k, you do not want to be sick, if you were not sick, you would do many things diferently.
> Others will either realize that you are s-i-c-k and they will make a caring, loving adjustment in the way they treat you, if they do not - than that is _their_ defect not yours".I'm lucky. Others HAVE made adjustments. Not everybody but some. I'm trying to figure out now when you go from "are sick" to "was sick". I think I've crossed that line recently. (Of course this is the world of continuums.) Which means I should be expecting fewer allowances to be made for me. I should be doing that for other people. Unless of course I'm still being as irrational as I was 10 years ago... Not really something I can expect feedback on from most of the people I deal with. Especially the nice ones.
I think you mentioned a while ago that you were finally finding some success with medication (which maybe should stay nameless on the social board - see I really have been reading). Are you still improving? Do you think you've crossed that line, that isn't a line but a continuum, yet?
Jane
Posted by Jane D on May 29, 2001, at 10:18:09
In reply to Re: Redirected: Relying on meds » Mair, posted by SLS on May 27, 2001, at 2:23:52
>When I awaken next, it is my intention to follow a path that I build for myself forward rather than attempt to walk backwards in an attempt to arrive at a point in time and space that no longer exists.Scott,
You wrote the above specifically about reestablishing friendships but I found it rang a loud bell in a more general way. You've nailed down one of the mistakes I repeatedly make. In trying to catch up to where I think my life should be I go back to where I left off. For example, returning to school and the major I left years ago. It was the last thing I remembered really wanting to do but it was unsuccessful because I wasn't really in the same place. I just felt like I should be. Or on a lighter level getting into the music everybody else left behind years ago because I was oblivious to it when it was new. (Supertramp, Rolling Stones anyone?)
Now all I need to do is figure out how to do what you describe.
Jane
Posted by Jane D on May 29, 2001, at 11:02:22
In reply to Re: Friendships and other problems Mair » mair, posted by shelliR on May 28, 2001, at 13:27:47
> I do understand your dilemma. I think you are saying that for your friendships to have meaning that friends must understand about your depression, because it is such a large part of your life.
For me its the secondary effects of depression that are so major that I am tempted to explain. My job (lousy) my social life (nonexistant) my knowledge of popular culture (sketchy) have all been influenced drastically. At my worst none of this matters to me. It's later that I feel that there is this huge disparity between who I am and who I appear to be. On a practical level, I want my friends to know that I DO want to be tipped off about new job opportunities now even though I did nothing the last 5 times they did that. I DO want to be introduced to that nice guy even though they've never, ever seen me with anyone. And on and on. It feels like explaining the depression would do this but I'm not sure that's true.
> I don't really know how to talk about depression, and I think you're right that people don't really want to hear too much about it, anyway.
> I think for me the operative word is "mention" in dealing with depression. I don't want to be living a lie, but for me somehow "mentioning" depression, rather than engaging in discussions about my depression seems the most comfortable place for me.
Yes. I find I deliberately understate the experience or make a joke out of it. In my experience its really understanding depression that make people uncomfortable. Not just the word. Maybe because they can't help but feel like they should.
Jane
Posted by dougb on May 29, 2001, at 15:40:54
In reply to Re: Thanks for the welcome » dougb, posted by Jane D on May 29, 2001, at 9:42:59
(undeserving that is). Irrational?
-- Beating up on yourself is not rational either, yet most of us do it anyway, go figure.> I'm trying to figure out now when you go from "are sick" to "was sick".
-- Well 'sick' can be a shelter too, it cuts you some slack, it keeps others from twisting your arm to do or be or follow their agenda. 'Give me some space, i'm 'sick'.Am not suggesting that we take a permanent vacation, but many of us have just been or are going through a very traumatic illness/experience/whatever.
For me the process of healing and almost 're-inventing myself' for those that can relate is going to take time.
Have been in some kind of hole/zone/prison for many years. It is only natural that i will have to re-adjust to everyone madly rushing around me, or maybe not.
I really think my head is in a lot better place now than it ever has been. Now, when i stop and smell that rose, it is really getting smelled....
The world has somehow managed to go on without my assistance for the last several years. I now have a really cool oportunity to re-enter the mainstream at the speed and spot i choose.
I have always wanted to do something for humanity, to make a difference, to be an activist, to be passionate and a romantic . These things were always part of me but never found expression.
Somehow, father of 5, employer, homeowner had taken over the things that i always wanted to do and be.
But now, i have a unique opportunity to 're-invent Doug' and express all of those subliminated parts of myself.
Watch out world, here I come!
>Unless of course I'm still being as irrational as I was 10 years ago... Not really something I can expect feedback on from most of the people I deal with. Especially the nice ones.
-- Am happy to provide feedback, need more data. I will tell you this: it is an irrational world and by being a little irrational ourselves sometimes, we fit right in, what do you tink Natasha?
>Are you still improving? Do you think you've crossed that line, that isn't a line but a continuum, yet?
-- Yes, meds still working better than ever, but am still learning how best to use them: if i take to little, they dont dxo their thing, if i take too much, they put me to sleep or prevent me from working.Am going to see a specialist tomorrow, at my MD's request to see what he reccomends.
db
Posted by Jane D on May 30, 2001, at 13:47:39
In reply to Re: Thanks for the welcome » Jane D, posted by dougb on May 29, 2001, at 15:40:54
Doug
> The world has somehow managed to go on without my assistance for the last several years. I now have a really cool oportunity to re-enter the mainstream at the speed and spot i choose.
Interesting idea. I'm going to need to think about this.> Somehow, father of 5, employer, homeowner had taken over the things that i always wanted to do and be.
>I would think 'father of 5' could take over most things. Wow! No wonder you need a break. But seriously, how have your children handled your illness? Do they understand what happened to you or have you hidden it from them?
You seem to have accomplished a lot despite being sick for a long time. So have the other parents who have posted here. It always amazes me. I wonder if they are parents because they are stronger than I or if they are stronger because they are parents and have to be. Do you think having that responsibility helped motivate you to keep your life together for a longer time? Or were they an additional stressor? Or both?
Feel free to ignore the personal questions, especially if you suspect your children are following your trail on the internet. Another hazard of todays literate children I imagine.
I hope your appointment with the specialist went well.
Jane
Posted by mair on May 30, 2001, at 21:33:05
In reply to Re: Friendships and other problems Mair » mair, posted by shelliR on May 28, 2001, at 13:27:47
> Shelli - I think you've touched on something I've been struggling with but have not been able to articulate. I think I want my friends to know because I feel that I've expended alot of energy trying to actively mask my depression and I don't really want to do that anymore. By the same token, I recognize that there are limits to how much I burden them with and frankly, I'm not the type to easily share things anyway. I'm probably also hampered by a sense that I need my friends alot more than they need me. I propbably keep myself at a distance because i don't want to say or do something that will remind me of this. Having said all of this maybe I should be content that they don't know. Obviously I'm vascillating alot.
I told my therapist about your response. We've agreed to discuss the issue of what people should know soon. It's very timely because she's been heavily lobbying me to bring my kids to one of my sessions.(they now know virtually nothing) There probably are similarities between the ambivalence I have about drawing my friends in and being more honest with my children. Thanks
Mair (muddled, but not ready to retreat)
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by mair on May 30, 2001, at 21:38:11
In reply to Depressed parents » dougb, posted by Jane D on May 30, 2001, at 13:47:39
> " I wonder if they are parents because they are stronger than I or if they are stronger because they are parents and have to be. Do you think having that responsibility helped motivate you to keep your life together for a longer time? Or were they an additional stressor? Or both?"
>
> Jane, for what its worth, in my case the answer would be "both." You really do need to hold yourself together as best you can, but doing that takes a big toll.Mair
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on June 3, 2001, at 2:00:29
In reply to Re: Friendships and other problems Mair » shelliR, posted by mair on May 28, 2001, at 7:19:26
> > > Mair, (Can I still think of you as K?)
> >
> Of course. I changed it because it started feeling not anonymous. I also had in mind what I think was your observation many months ago, that it was easier to think of people in terms of a name that sounded like a name, and not initials.
>
> > First of all, did your post get lost in the redirect? I can't find it. Anyway, I was basically able to read it again from someone's rely.
> >
> > I'm still trying to figure out how to deal with redirected posts. When I first saw Jane's redirected post, I went to the URL so I could read the previous posts. I responded there (on PB), and my post was redirected also.
>
> > > Don't assume these friendships are really lost. I think when you are ready, friendships can reestablish themselves easier than one might anticipate.
>
> > This is a nice thought. My pessimism is driven by the fact that twice in the last 2 years or so I've written long letters to people who were once very good friends, but with whom I had lost contact for quite awhile. (I have great intentions every year of sending out Xmas cards to at least keep in touch on that surface level, but i can never seem to get my act together enough to do that). In these letters, I explained a little about my struggles with depression. Neither person ever responded to my letter. I have no idea whether I said something in the letter to offend them, whether they just didn't want to hear about the "depressed me", whether for whatever reason they had no interest in rekindling that relationship, or whether they were just pissed. (one of these persons was someone who had written me a long letter a few years before that. I was trying to explain why I hadn't responded) I've been very unrevealing about what I've been through. Very few people know. I have this huge fear that I'll put people off by talking about it. On the other hand, it's been such a huge piece of my recent life, that I think it's an impediment to lots of friendships for me not to talk about it. It's the wall that separates me from other people. I've never figured out how to strike that balance between discussing it and not talking about it too much.
>
> MairDear Mair,
I hear you loud and clear. The balance thing
about how much one talks about their illness
is very tricky for me, especially with people
who have never experienced clinical
depression. It is very hard for a lot of
people to understand and empathize with
someone who has a depressive illness. Then again, it is
sometimes very hard for me to understand
and click with someone who has never been
clinically depressed. For me, in an odd
sort of way, my illness has given great
depth to my personality. Yet I cannot take
away from the fact that your depression has
caused you great pain.
Hang in there; I sense you to be a very
loving person; it takes great courage and
tenacity to try to rekindle friendships.
Glenn
Posted by Wendy B. on June 4, 2001, at 0:11:34
In reply to Depressed parents » dougb, posted by Jane D on May 30, 2001, at 13:47:39
Hi Jane & Doug & others,
I find this thread to be so interesting. Going from Cam W talking about meds & therapy & cures, the responsibility to work on getting well, to how we handle (or mismanage) friendships... To what it's like to be a depressed parent. Wow, I feel compelled to write and ponder similar issues, the things I've kicked myself over (lost friendships, 3 yrs of not talking to my mother, etc.). The writing is good (therapeutic?) because it's an effort to get beyond the kicking myself and the self-blame.I think the depression fallout we have experienced, and probably bipolar fallout too, esp. in my case (and I think Scott's too?, I may be forgetting), is that friends and family sometimes have to fall by the wayside while we struggle with our demons. I think if we put it this way to them, they may understand better, and not take the things we do so personally.
But how can they not take it personally, I wonder? I have recently been on the other side of the equation, where I have been just one of many people left in the wake, the path of destruction, as it were, of a friend who is rapid-cycling bipolar. His slash-and-burn technique has been excrutiatingly painful to several of us, including a boyhood friend of his. Yet he goes on, very blind to all this, precisely because he has been in a florid hypomanic state for many months.
The ironic part is, I took him to my therapist when he was in a practically catatonic state of depression last fall. I literally had to drag him. Then he got the line from my therapist: do things for yourself only, don't plan your life around other people's agendas, cut yourself some slack, etc., just the same things we've said here. But my anguish is that as he was getting this advice from my therapist, he pulled away from a love relationship with me (ok, this is getting more personal than I planned...), because he took that very advice.
So while I thought I was helping him, and thought it would also help our relationship if he became clearer on why it was that he felt so awful (his mother dying when he was a young child), and what he could do about it (meds), it just hastened the demise of our relationship. He does admit now that I probably saved his life, since he is now totally into therapy and is med-compliant.
Other fallout is that I felt so betrayed by my therapist, who I felt was telling him that his impulsivity (parachuting out of our relationship, starting an affair with a chick 15 yrs younger than he, leaving me a total depressed mess), was ok because that's what he needed to do to figure out what he really wanted... Needless to say, I then bailed on my therapist and found another, natch, since my boyfriend had triangulated all of our relationships, and she was, I think, blindsided by the strength and insidiousness of his bipolar behavior. Adding to my hurt was the jealousy: she was getting intimacy with him, closeness that had been so suddenly snatched away from me.
Do you get why I'm confused about the cut-yourself-some-slack advice? I usually cut myself plenty, I admit. But I don't renegge on the responsibility I have to the other person. In essence now I try to keep my florid moments to myself, not impose them on other people (which, yes, implies a measure of control that a lot of bipolars are not capable of), and not make life-altering decisions that involve the deepest emotions of the other person, whilst in the middle of a hypomanic state, or in the depths of depression.
For example, speaking of parenting, what would happen if I just bailed on my daughter because I had to get my head together? Or perhaps I became very ill because of my depression, and ended up in the hospital. But in my wildest dreams, would I ever stop wanting to be near her or to care for her as much as possible? Can one even compare the parental relationship with the ex-lover relationship?
Perhaps I don't know how ill any of us actually get. Perhaps I don't understand the depths of non-functionality my boyfriend had descended to, and he did understand at least that much, and he was right to end it? I don't know anymore, and keep going over and over it, many months later...And I hate being ill, I see the depression as this "thing," some kind of monster of sorts, which just hangs there over me, or inside me, whatever. While it may sometimes be comfortable to retreat, and we may have to give ourselves a break and remember we're sick, we still have to do damage-repair with the people we love from time to time, as we struggle to our feet. I know I try to in my better days.
Right now I feel I have gone through a door, and am much better now, months after the breakup. But even though the meds and the therapy can relieve a lot, they don't do it all, and I can still go pretty low. However, I still come around to placing a sort of moral imperative on myself to try hard not to harm others... Is this what Cam meant in the early posts on this thread about responsibility? I don't know, it's late, I'm rambling, and I will probably post more on Depressed Parenting in the next day or two.Thanks, guys,
Wendy
> Doug
>
> > The world has somehow managed to go on without my assistance for the last several years. I now have a really cool oportunity to re-enter the mainstream at the speed and spot i choose.
>
> Interesting idea. I'm going to need to think about this.
>
> > Somehow, father of 5, employer, homeowner had taken over the things that i always wanted to do and be.
> >
>
> I would think 'father of 5' could take over most things. Wow! No wonder you need a break. But seriously, how have your children handled your illness? Do they understand what happened to you or have you hidden it from them?
>
> You seem to have accomplished a lot despite being sick for a long time. So have the other parents who have posted here. It always amazes me. I wonder if they are parents because they are stronger than I or if they are stronger because they are parents and have to be. Do you think having that responsibility helped motivate you to keep your life together for a longer time? Or were they an additional stressor? Or both?
>
> Feel free to ignore the personal questions, especially if you suspect your children are following your trail on the internet. Another hazard of todays literate children I imagine.
>
> I hope your appointment with the specialist went well.
>
> Jane
Posted by Mair on June 5, 2001, at 21:58:21
In reply to Re: Friendships and other problems Mair, posted by Glenn Fagelson on June 3, 2001, at 2:00:29
> > > > Glenn, I'm sorry I couldn't respond to your post sooner, but computer time has been at a premium lately.
I read your post on Monday morning, a day that usually drives me to panic and dispair. I can't even begin to tell you how much of a lift it gave me and how much of a difference it made to the rest of my day. Pax
Mair
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on June 5, 2001, at 22:26:42
In reply to Re: Friendships and other problems Mair, posted by Glenn Fagelson on June 3, 2001, at 2:00:29
> > > > Mair, (Can I still think of you as K?)
> > >
> > Of course. I changed it because it started feeling not anonymous. I also had in mind what I think was your observation many months ago, that it was easier to think of people in terms of a name that sounded like a name, and not initials.
> >
> > > First of all, did your post get lost in the redirect? I can't find it. Anyway, I was basically able to read it again from someone's rely.
> > >
> > > I'm still trying to figure out how to deal with redirected posts. When I first saw Jane's redirected post, I went to the URL so I could read the previous posts. I responded there (on PB), and my post was redirected also.
> >
> > > > Don't assume these friendships are really lost. I think when you are ready, friendships can reestablish themselves easier than one might anticipate.
> >
> > > This is a nice thought. My pessimism is driven by the fact that twice in the last 2 years or so I've written long letters to people who were once very good friends, but with whom I had lost contact for quite awhile. (I have great intentions every year of sending out Xmas cards to at least keep in touch on that surface level, but i can never seem to get my act together enough to do that). In these letters, I explained a little about my struggles with depression. Neither person ever responded to my letter. I have no idea whether I said something in the letter to offend them, whether they just didn't want to hear about the "depressed me", whether for whatever reason they had no interest in rekindling that relationship, or whether they were just pissed. (one of these persons was someone who had written me a long letter a few years before that. I was trying to explain why I hadn't responded) I've been very unrevealing about what I've been through. Very few people know. I have this huge fear that I'll put people off by talking about it. On the other hand, it's been such a huge piece of my recent life, that I think it's an impediment to lots of friendships for me not to talk about it. It's the wall that separates me from other people. I've never figured out how to strike that balance between discussing it and not talking about it too much.
> >
> > Mair
>
> Dear Mair,
> I hear you loud and clear. The balance thing
> about how much one talks about their illness
> is very tricky for me, especially with people
> who have never experienced clinical
> depression. It is very hard for a lot of
> people to understand and empathize with
> someone who has a depressive illness. Then again, it is
> sometimes very hard for me to understand
> and click with someone who has never been
> clinically depressed. For me, in an odd
> sort of way, my illness has given great
> depth to my personality. Yet I cannot take
> away from the fact that your depression has
> caused you great pain.
> Hang in there; I sense you to be a very
> loving person; it takes great courage and
> tenacity to try to rekindle friendships.
>
> GlennDear Mair,
I am so glad to hear that my post to you
lifted your spirits! I hope you are doing
well.
Glenn
>
This is the end of the thread.
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