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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DaisyM on April 27, 2004, at 1:08:47
I was struck by part of Garden Girl's post above:
>>>>As time progresses, I find, though, that even though I have an urge to call him at times, (when I am especially frazzled or feeling really good), I can wait until my session. I am learning, I think, to contain things myself rather than have him help me contain them.
<<<<<<I continue to struggle and struggle with this issue because what I read about clients "bothering" their Therapist and what mine seems to want me to do, doesn't fit.
Due to my work schedule I didn't see my Therapist for almost 6 days. This is the longest I've gone for a while. I had two difficult bouts with anxiety and one major melt down. I didn't call him. Even though he asked me last week if I was going to be able to call him from the conference, if I needed him, even over the weekend. He specifically brought it up and reminded me it was OK just to reach out and check in. I didn't even have to know WHY I want to talk to him, knowing I wanted to was reason enough.
We spent the session today talking about why I hadn't called and how it felt to not allow myself to call him because I wanted to "make it through" until today. He asked me "what did it prove," and "who wins?" when you don't call. I told him I'm trying to prove to myself, and him, that I am still competent enough to go 5 days without my Therapist. (cross the arms and the legs, lift chin)! That I can contain my own feelings and "wait."
He said he could see why I might want to do that, but perhaps only the adult me wanted/needed to prove this competence. He wanted to hear from the younger me who he suspected needed her Therapist over the weekend without being able to verbalize why. Perhaps the melt down was from her and the anxiety was the clue that something wasn't right and I should begin to listen to that.
I asked him if he was expecting this discussion today. He admitted he was surprised that he hadn't heard from me because early last week was pretty stressful with my hubby and he knew I was under a lot of pressure. He said that he thought I had done a great job of allowing myself to need him lately and he knew it would be hard to miss sessions. He added that he had checked his service "a number of times" over the weekend because he had said he would be available. (Then he quickly added that I didn't need to worry about that, I didn't inconvenience him or anything. Man, he really is getting to know me!)
Even after this intense discussion, I continue to be confused as to the right thing to do. He opens the door to contact, tells me it is OK and I do this whole "what I think I should do" argument that conflicts with the part of me that wants to call him. If I read GG right, containing herself is a sign that she is making progress in therapy. If I read my Therapist right, he thinks reaching out for help in the containment would be progress in therapy. *sigh* I NEED THE RULE BOOK!!!
I tell him this all the time. Once he threw a bunch of books on the floor and said, "You can start with those, they all argue with each other." LOL He then gave the "each therapy is an individual journey" speech so comparisons aren't helpful.
I don't know what I'm running from or why this is such a hurdle for me. I trust him totally. But I can't get past the feelings of needing him "too much," even though I realize I'm paying for it.
Insight? Advice?
Daisy
Posted by gardenergirl on April 27, 2004, at 1:44:15
In reply to To call or Not to Call: Always a question!, posted by DaisyM on April 27, 2004, at 1:08:47
Daisy,
I am not opposed to the possiblity that I might be defending against being dependent. I never really talked to him about urges to call except the one time when I passed my CCE. So I feel like it's progress, but more in that I tend to want immediate gratification when I need to ask someone something (and not just my T). I'm trying to learn patience. Or so I rationalize...Imagine a therapy rule book. All of the exceptions and addendums and precendents, etc. Who would be the referee? Would they blow the whistle when a boundary crossing or violation occurred?
Sorry to make light of your post. It's very late and I am getting punchy. Off to bed for me.
But your question is a good one, and reminds me of a flavor of what you often struggle with in therapy, from reading your posts--"how much needing him is "correct" or can I tolerate given that I try to be superwoman (and in many ways you are, dear), and what does that say about me?" I think it is a very individual process.
Today my T and I talked about how I really want to do things because *I* decide to do them. If I feel like I have to or someone demands me to do something, I really dig my heels in. So perhaps feeling like I don't need my T is digging my heels in in the face of feeling dependent? Ugh. My head hurts, now. ;)
take care,
gg
Posted by rs on April 27, 2004, at 6:07:55
In reply to To call or Not to Call: Always a question!, posted by DaisyM on April 27, 2004, at 1:08:47
Hi Daisy. As you see have posted a few times. How I understand how you feel.
Daisy you are such a inspiration for me cannot find the words to describe it. Have read many of your posts. You are carrying so so much and deserve your therapist to help you. Look at all you do in one day. I also need my T in many many ways. Do I feel right about it? No not at all. And I know that is getting in the way of much. This T is so so real that its to good to be true. Do have DID and he is amazing. I know I need him much.
Daisy please please try to know that your therapist cares much for you and wants you to need him right now. He knows you deserve his help and caring. Please do not even look at it as your paying him. He sounds like he cares for you as a person. How many would check their messages on a weekend? I know how hard it is to accept that we need someone to help us. Sometimes think it hurts. But you care for many so please let him care for you and fill that need. You need his support and understanding right now. Hope this makes sense and in someways is supportive. I could share some things with you about my last session that was wonderful but not sure if right here.
Ok must leave for work. Please know I care for you and again think your a remarkable person. Also the work you do is very demanding. Do some kind of familiar work for many years now and find it at times very drainnig.
Daisy reach out to him. Hey listen if you need to talk with him today pick up that phone and just say "Thanks for being there for me and yes I do need you right now." Hugs if ok.
Posted by fallsfall on April 27, 2004, at 7:47:25
In reply to To call or Not to Call: Always a question!, posted by DaisyM on April 27, 2004, at 1:08:47
At some point, the idea is to not need your therapist. Just like your children get ready to move out of the house. But they don't just leave and never speak to you again. It is a gradual process, and even when they have completely moved out, they still need to call to find out how you made their favorite casserole.
But before your children are ready and able to move out, they need you, they depend on you. And that dependency is what gives them the strength to succeed when they DO move out.
What would you say to an 8 year old who said "Mom, I'm 8 now, so I'm going to get a job and move into an apartment"?
But when it is time for them to go, you are happy (and sad) and proud because you know they have the skills (inner skills and practical skills) to succeed.
Don't compare yourself with GG. She is not you. You have different journeys, and you are at different places in your journeys.
Don't move out until you are ready.
Posted by Kind Girl on April 27, 2004, at 9:28:09
In reply to Re: To call or Not to Call: Always a question! » DaisyM, posted by fallsfall on April 27, 2004, at 7:47:25
Daisy,
Sorry I am jumping in late here, but I loved what I read so far from you because you SOUND LIKE ME!!!!!! Oh my gosh. My hands shake when I call her number, I hang up before the last digit...then pick up the phone again....it is such a battle.Your T. sounds so much like mine except he is male, and it felt good to read that he says the same thing mine does.
Not sure if this is true for you (and him) but my t tells me all the time how as a little child, an infant even, I learned not to depend on anyone for anything because nobody was there for me when there should have been a loving parent there for me. She said I have needs and wants and desires from that little place in me that need to come out, to be seen, to be heard, to be held and healed. I have asked her many many times for a book or a Bible study or ANYTHING that will show me how to do this. She just smiles and says, "there is no "one size fits all" therapy"....and my "work" is depending on her...learning to trust her, to call her, to ask her for help, to cry out to her....all that stuff that I decided I would never do ever again since the time I was in diapers. It is excruciating for me to call her.
It is very painful to open up and trust that someone gives a darn about you when nobody in your life has ever before, and that is my work with her, according to her. Perhaps your t. would say the same thing....that your work is learning to call him, learning to ask, learning to trust him when he tells you to call him. I always preface my phone messages with, "Sorry to bother you but....." and every time she answers with, "Thank you for calling....you are never a bother..."
I wish it was easier but it isn't, but thanks for what you wrote because it helped me not feel like such a freak.
Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2004, at 10:45:11
In reply to To call or Not to Call: Always a question!, posted by DaisyM on April 27, 2004, at 1:08:47
I was reading a book on Sunday about stages in life. The childish phase where you want, want, want. The adolescent phase where you want to do everything yourself. The "mature" phase where you want to do things for others.
And I thought, and think, that that is an oversimplification. Everyone is different, and everyone has different defense structures. Different strengths. Different weaknesses.
Therapy is designed to help us maximize our strengths and minimize our weaknesses. And to get us to try out new ways of being.
So if someone's natural way of protecting themselves in this scary world is to cling and be dependent or to need instant gratification, a sign of maturity would be to be more independent and be able to delay gratification.
But if someone's natural way of protecting themselves is to not need anyone, it's a sign of maturity in them to allow themselves to need. Or if someone's way of protecting themselves is to help others, it's a sign of maturity in them to be able to say no sometimes, or to let others help them.
I think the courage comes in therapy from doing something different from the way we normally do it. And maturity comes from moving from the extremes of any position to somewhere in the middle. And sometimes that means moving to the opposite extreme first before moving back to the middle.
So whatever's most frightening for you to do, give it a shot. :)
Posted by gardenergirl on April 27, 2004, at 11:21:53
In reply to Re: To call or Not to Call: Always a question!, posted by Dinah on April 27, 2004, at 10:45:11
What a great way to look at it! Thanks. I feel good now.
gg
Posted by Aphrodite on April 27, 2004, at 14:29:19
In reply to To call or Not to Call: Always a question!, posted by DaisyM on April 27, 2004, at 1:08:47
Daisy,
I have been in therapy for 6 months. My therapist has never invited me to call, never laid the ground rules, never made it an option. This seems to be the opposite of what many posters here believe to be true about their therapists. Since I struggle with the same issue as you -- the belief of being a burden -- my therapist's lack of direction about what to do in the time between sessions (I go once a week) leaving me feeling even more burdensome. I have felt like a quick call on a few rather difficult occasions would have been so very helpful. So, I say, if you have a therapist who encourages it, you should go with your instincts and call when you need it. It does make you feel better and calmer when you do, right?
Posted by DaisyM on April 28, 2004, at 0:26:07
In reply to Re: To call or Not to Call: Always a question! » DaisyM, posted by Aphrodite on April 27, 2004, at 14:29:19
such wise people on this board...I love that! Thank you all for your reassurances. Yes, I feel like an 8 year old half the time who has run away from home and wants her mother. But I need to *prove* that I can make it without her.
I think Kindgirl hit it too...I learned a long time ago not to rely on other people. And now that life is offering too many challenges to manage on my own, I don't know how to effectively get support from other people without becoming a burden on them. (At least in my view.)
Dinah is so right...doing what he wants me to do is very frightening. Because the potential for hurt is huge. To learn and grow I have to risk. But it feels like risking my Therapist, which I'm not willing to do.
Posted by shadows721 on April 28, 2004, at 0:55:00
In reply to To call or Not to Call: Always a question!, posted by DaisyM on April 27, 2004, at 1:08:47
If there was a rule book, it was written by ourselves and it needs updating. The rules from childhood have changed. There is help. There is someone there that cares and is there for you. It's really okay now to reach out for help. It's there just for you and you deserve this kind of help.
Part of the learning process of therapy is getting ourselves out of the way of what is right for us. We don't learn much from the old comfort zone. It keeps us from growing to our full potential.
The old rule of I have to do this alone isn't true anymore. You just have to give yourself permission to reach out when you need it.
The old rule book can be rewritten and you have the power and the support to do that now.
Posted by Racer on April 28, 2004, at 21:47:25
In reply to To call or Not to Call: Always a question!, posted by DaisyM on April 27, 2004, at 1:08:47
I'm betting the difference is where you are in your therapy process. GG is probably just past the first lap -- where you have to be encouraged to open up and trust and CALL WHEN YOU NEED TO -- and on to the second or third lap -- where she needs to start internalizing the support and getting it from herself rather than calling.
Remember Snakes and Ladders? On that game, you could use a ladder to climb past some of the steps on the board, right? The problem was, you could also slide down the snake and have to start all over again. That's kinda like therapy, only think of it as being two different games on one board: if you choose to use the ladders and skip some of the squares, you'll also be subject to the snakes sending you back to the first square. If, on the other hand, you decide to step into each and every square along the way, you'll be pretty sure to get to the end without mishap. (Unless, being in CA, we get a good shaker, eh?)
So, right now, you're in that first row or two, trying to decide whether to use the ladders or go step by step. If you choose to forego the ladders, that means that you'll also have to choose to check in by telephone once in a while, and learn that it's OK to do so. That's what you have to learn first.
By the way, I do know that it's damned hard to do. And during my meltdown this week and last, I didn't call my therapist. You've got company, SuperWoman. Maybe we should make a pact to fight evil without our masks one day? (Have you ever sesn the Sylvia comic strip, by Nicole Hollander? One of my favorites, because she *gets* it so well. The one I was thinking of was "Superwoman realizes she forgot to turn off her oven..." I recommend Sylvia for what ails you, taken medicinally twice weekly.) Good luck, you know I wish you the very best.
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