![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 56. Go back in thread:
Posted by TofuEmmy on June 16, 2006, at 17:27:31
In reply to Re: can professionals keep this a secret? » happyflower, posted by ElaineM on June 16, 2006, at 16:59:11
I'm sure that your medical doc has no right to report this behavior. Unless you've signed a consent form, she can't tell anyone anything about you - unless it's regarding suicide/homicide.
I WOULD definately talk to her, since it sounds like she is someone you trust. You've already heard from people here that his behavior is flat out absolutely unethical, and dangerous to you.
Please take care of yourself. He is unhealthy psychologically. He is manipulately a client into something which could cause him to lose his license permanently. How desparate/sick does a person have to be to jeopardize their livelyhood for the possibilty of sex (yup, that's what he is after IMO)? It's sad for him, and dangerous for you. Please take care.
I know all of this must be difficult to hear, but read this board and the archives and you'll learn more about what a good therapist is like. You'll also meet posters who lives were turned into shambles by morally bankrupt T's.
Em
Posted by fairywings on June 16, 2006, at 17:38:56
In reply to Re: can professionals keep this a secret? » B2chica, posted by ElaineM on June 16, 2006, at 15:34:19
> Okay I'm getting really scared reading this. I assumed people would tell me that I was reading into nothing.
Hi Elaine,
I'm sorry you're going through this and feeling so vulnerable and ambivalent. I understand not feeling you can leave him, it sounds like you've become very dependent on him - understandable since he pays you so much attention and you feel so alone otherwise.
My guess is, since you asked if it's okay, at some level you feel it's not. Could you consider weaning yourself off of him by seeing another therapist? You don't have to confide this to another T, but maybe you can forge enough of a bond with another T while letting your feelings for your current T subside?
When I was a teenager, my 1st therapist encouraged a very unhealthy dependency on him. I feel like I lost 5 years of my life. I never reported him, and never would. I won't even tell my T what happened, but I often wonder what would've happened to me if I hadn't gotten away. He seemed very nice, but in retrospect he didn't have my best interest at heart.
Can you look forward, and think of the things that could possibly happen and how you'd feel, or how you'd deal with them? Have you thought about how you'd feel if he terminated your therapy abruptly, or just stopped seeing you? I'm not saying he will, but does it worry you? Are you preparing yourself, just in case?
You're probably not reading nothing into all of this, esp. since you've expressed concerns about whether it's okay. I wondered...is he in solo practice, and are you still paying him, or has he waived his fee?
>>I am too afraid to "stop seeing him immediately". ... I'm not used to having others respond to my questions either. I don't often ask things of people because I'm afraid no one would listen, or believe me, or want to helpMaybe that's one of the things that makes you especially appealing to him?
BTW, you're definitely not stupid, and I'm sure you're not ugly. You sound like a wonderful, sensitive, caring person who could be very easily hurt. I hope that doesn't happen. Good luck.....
fw
Posted by happyflower on June 16, 2006, at 18:02:51
In reply to Re: can professionals keep this a secret? » happyflower, posted by ElaineM on June 16, 2006, at 16:59:11
Still, on the days that nothing happens, and he doesn't ask to hold me or touch me, or say romantic things, I feel really really bad. And all I think about is what I did differently and how I can act better for next session. I wonder if I wore something that made me look uglier. I worry that the day had come when he finally realized what a horrible patient I am, and can't take me anymore. Then when he offers me invitations or presents I feel 10% good and thankful, but 90% slutty.
Okay for me this worries me. First of all you can never be a horriable patient. If you are thinking that your actions of being a patient is the reason he is "hot, cold" with his actions, well this worries me. You should just be you no matter what, and doing therapy shouldn't be about if he or does or does not respond to you like this. If he was truely helping you as a therapist, he would allow you to become self confident about yourself in a way that doesn't have anything to do with him touching you.
>
> I even feel guilty asking for help because part of me does still enjoy it, because he is important and special and a better person than me.You shouldn't feel guilty for needing help, you are PAYING for it. This is his job, to help you become the best you can be.
Whenever I'm getting upset about what could come next, I just say to myself that I should be honored that he could pick me. He could do so much better than me.
This really worries me that it seems like you feel that you are so much inferior to him. I am also worried about is that do you think he has truely picked you ? Do you think he might be doing this with other clients too?
I am really worried about you. Your confidence is very low and it seems like your self worth is so tied into how he responds to you (in unethical ways).
I have been with my T for more than 1 1/2 years, yes there is mutual attraction, but he has never done the things you have talked about. Plus I don't believe I am inferier to him in any way. If you were confident, and living your life in a big way,being mentally healthy, I wouldn't worry so much about you being with your therapist. But it seems to me he is taking advantage of you in a big way. He might seem very charming, and gentle, but you know what, my mothered seemed the same way and she was a monster. I kinda of wonder if he has a personality disorder. I really urge you to talk to another therpist about this.
I also think your gut instinct is also telling you something is wrong, because you are writing her about it and you want to talk to your doctor about it.
My posts about my T and how I feel have been on this board for over a year now. But if he ever did the things your T has during therapy, I would think very ill of him and not respect him at all. I have a different view AFTER therapy. Please take care of yourself. I know it is hard to hear this stuff, but really everyone is concerned about you and don't want to see you get hurt even more.
>
Posted by Tamar on June 16, 2006, at 18:48:27
In reply to Re: can professionals keep this a secret? » happyflower, posted by ElaineM on June 16, 2006, at 16:59:11
> Then when he offers me invitations or presents I feel 10% good and thankful, but 90% slutty.
There’s the problem. Right there.
Only you can know why you feel slutty. It’s your business and if you choose to share it here that’s up to you.
Nevertheless, I would bet my house that the reason you feel slutty is that same reason that he is pushing the boundaries. And if you have some kind of abuse in your history and he knows about it, then I want to go over there and slap his head. Because abusers always pick on vulnerable people. They know they can get away with it.
Don’t let him revictimise and retraumatise you. You deserve better.
(((((Elaine)))))
Posted by ElaineM on June 16, 2006, at 19:17:32
In reply to Re: can professionals keep this a secret? » ElaineM, posted by fairywings on June 16, 2006, at 17:38:56
Fairywings, He is in private practice and I don't pay personally. He knows I don't have alot of money. That's part of the reason I feel so ungrateful. When things were normal, all that time, he was doing this for very little. That was really generous of him. He works mainly by himself, with two young T's underneath him. They are just rarely around from what I hear. At least not when I'm there.
He says he will never end it with me. I can't picture him doing it, I just worry that it is only because I behave well and say nice things, and help him out. I sort of think he could maybe even love me. I don't think I could handle it if he terminated me. I'm tired of losing T's. I can't do it again.
He does know of my past abuse by my father, and a smaller incident a few years ago. That's why I think he wants to make sure he's extra caring. That's why I want to make sure I don't mistake caring for something else. I can't believe he would use his knowledge of my past to hurt me. But he does know that I have no one else, and am lonely. It's embarassing to say but, I'm desperate, and he knows that. I wish I could just know for sure what will happen.
El
Posted by ElaineM on June 16, 2006, at 19:50:47
In reply to Re: can professionals keep this a secret? » ElaineM, posted by Tamar on June 16, 2006, at 18:48:27
Tamar: Sorry, I responded to the "knowing my history" stuff in a post above. The main reason I feel slutty is because he is much, much older than me. And his children are my age. I think the gap is what makes me feel a bit weird. But he says I'm old on the inside. And I think that was nice to say. I thought it was a compliment. Was it not?
And I say slutty because I see myself as a tease. I both hate and like stuff that goes on in sessions. If I was normal, it wouldn't be both at once. And I feel trashy cause I do let him touch me when I don't really want it. (Sometimes I flinch when he gets up from his chair, and I feel so embarassed and guilty for it, and I hope he didn't notice it) Even stupid things are making me too nervous, like when a hug lasts too long. Once I flinched when he went to only touch my face. But this is all part of the closeness I was wanting so much in the beginning. I don't understand why I'm getting cold feet now. I wonder if things feel strange cause I haven't had someone touch me nicely in a long time, so I can't even recognize regular male/female contact.
I'm too humiliated and afraid to say everything that's been said, or done between us, but I honestly haven't had sex with him, or kissed him yet. I haven't. I always think I'm a slut anyways. If I smile at someone who holds the elevator door for me then I think I was slutty.
It's hard for me to post here. I've been testing out this board, and this topic before, and it has taken me a long time to lose enough of my fear about my T reading this, to post everything I have. I'm still paranoid that he'll read this.
I do want to say that I'm not discounting everything you guys say. I do hear it all. It is just hard stuff to hear. Harder still to fully believe. And hardest to act on. I'm sorry though if I frustrate everyone.
El
Posted by orchid on June 16, 2006, at 20:45:39
In reply to Re: can professionals keep this a secret? » Tamar, posted by ElaineM on June 16, 2006, at 19:50:47
> Tamar: Sorry, I responded to the "knowing my history" stuff in a post above. The main reason I feel slutty is because he is much, much older than me. And his children are my age. I think the gap is what makes me feel a bit weird. But he says I'm old on the inside. And I think that was nice to say. I thought it was a compliment. Was it not?
>
> And I say slutty because I see myself as a tease. I both hate and like stuff that goes on in sessions. If I was normal, it wouldn't be both at once. And I feel trashy cause I do let him touch me when I don't really want it. (Sometimes I flinch when he gets up from his chair, and I feel so embarassed and guilty for it, and I hope he didn't notice it) Even stupid things are making me too nervous, like when a hug lasts too long. Once I flinched when he went to only touch my face. But this is all part of the closeness I was wanting so much in the beginning. I don't understand why I'm getting cold feet now. I wonder if things feel strange cause I haven't had someone touch me nicely in a long time, so I can't even recognize regular male/female contact.
>
> I'm too humiliated and afraid to say everything that's been said, or done between us, but I honestly haven't had sex with him, or kissed him yet. I haven't. I always think I'm a slut anyways. If I smile at someone who holds the elevator door for me then I think I was slutty.
>
> It's hard for me to post here. I've been testing out this board, and this topic before, and it has taken me a long time to lose enough of my fear about my T reading this, to post everything I have. I'm still paranoid that he'll read this.
>
> I do want to say that I'm not discounting everything you guys say. I do hear it all. It is just hard stuff to hear. Harder still to fully believe. And hardest to act on. I'm sorry though if I frustrate everyone.
>
> ElI have to agree with others here. He isn't good. Please take care of yourself by seeking someone else.
It would have been so admirable if he had been open to you about his attraction perhaps, and then decided to let you see someone else, or continued to work with you on improving you, but I think he is kind of manipulative, and is playing with your emotions. So it is better to avoid it.
Posted by fairywings on June 16, 2006, at 21:22:40
In reply to Re: can professionals keep this a secret? » fairywings, posted by ElaineM on June 16, 2006, at 19:17:32
Hi Elaine,
I think a lot of people worry about T's reading here. I'd guess statistically it's unlikely, but I understand the worry. I think people are very concerned about you and the situation, not frustrated.
Is your T's practice busy? How frequently do you see him? How long have you seen him? Are you making strides since you've been seeing him? Are you seeing him for your appts. when no one else is around? Does he ever bring up that you haven't been able to pay his normal fee?
It's concerning that you seem to question your self worth based on how he is with you each week. I know it must feel good to be held and shown all the attention when you feel so alone, but is it possible that by asking to hold you/touch you one week, and not doing it the next it's making you feel insecure and vulnerable? Do you have some sense of satisfaction when he wants you, and a sense that something's horribly wrong with you when he doesn't?
I hope I haven't been too aggressive - I don't mean to. I"m just hoping you'll make decisions that will benefit you and not hurt you.
fw
Posted by Fall Girl on June 17, 2006, at 9:10:20
In reply to Re: can professionals keep this a secret? » ElaineM, posted by Tamar on June 16, 2006, at 10:24:47
I have to add my agreement to Tamar's posting about your relationship with your therapist. I am totally concerned for your emotional safety and growth. Please let us know how things are going. FG
Posted by ElaineM on June 17, 2006, at 18:13:39
In reply to Re: can professionals keep this a secret? » ElaineM, posted by fairywings on June 16, 2006, at 21:22:40
FW: My T's practice doesn't seem too busy. I've only seen others a few times. Lately, since some of my times changed, I never see anyone. Not even the two young T's under him. I've seen him for a long time. It's getting close to two years. I started out once a week, and now I go anywhere from twice to four times a week. But those are just sessions. I see him outside of sessions too.
I think it has helped me seeing him. I probably wouldn't be around now if I had gone through all this time alone. I'm not a strong person. I'm not any closer to losing any of my problems but I've maintained, which to me, is always a miracle. Better than bottoming out.
You're not too aggressive. No one responding here is. I just scare easily. I worry that the time is coming when one of the two possibilities will occur. I don't want to have to deal with either outcome.
Thanks, El
Posted by annierose on June 17, 2006, at 22:08:02
In reply to Re: can professionals keep this a secret? » fairywings, posted by ElaineM on June 17, 2006, at 18:13:39
I haven't read all the replies just Tamar's and I agree with her.
He isn't your T anymore. He isn't helping you. I know it feels like he is, but he has LEAPED over any boundaries that did exist and now he is going to hurt you.
Please please please begin to see someone else. I don't know the laws where you live, but I believe if you don't use real names, he/she will protect your secret for you. Let this T know that you don't want to hurt this T, that you do love him, but you know in your heart that he isn't acting like a T anymore. That you just want to hear another professional opionion.
If this T really did care about you, he would act professional at all times. Boudaries are there for a reason, to protect you and protect him.
Posted by Karolina on June 18, 2006, at 2:27:55
In reply to can professionals keep this a secret?, posted by ElaineM on June 16, 2006, at 9:41:38
I agree with what the others have said, and I’m worried about your situation. Seeing a female T and letting her know about what’s been going on would be a good idea. I know you are in a difficult situation. And I know it feels awesome to be cared about and get all that kind of attention from him, but it sounds like it’s gone too far. If you didn’t think anything was wrong, I don’t think you would be posting about it or have an interest in telling another professional about it.
But you know what, it’s a *good* thing that you are aware that his behavior isn’t right and that you want to talk to somebody about it.
I’m so glad you’ve spoken up about this issue and please know we are here for you. Good luck with everything,
-Karolina-
Posted by Fall Girl on June 18, 2006, at 8:37:04
In reply to can professionals keep this a secret?, posted by ElaineM on June 16, 2006, at 9:41:38
I would like to make a suggetion to ElaineM in seeking out a new therapist. Elaine, it may seem overwhelming to you to cut off a relationship with your current T and allow time to search for another. As a way to tide any anxiety you would feel (I certainly know I would feel anxious), perhaps you could begin to interview or meet with a new therapist before you terminate with the current one. This may raise issues with honesty, conflicts of interest, etc., but it seems to be a safe way for you to maintain a feeling of support while you axe this other T. My observations and comments are made only out of concern for you and a frank anger that your current therapist has allowed such a deterioration of propriety, professionalism, and boundaries, with only YOU liable to be hurt by it. And maybe seeing 2 therapists for a short time wouldn't constitute a conflict of interest since it really isn't therapy you are receiving from him at this point!
I am afraid of coming off in a bad way, but have great concern for your situation. Fall Girl
Posted by ElaineM on June 18, 2006, at 10:07:40
In reply to Re: keep this a secret? ELAINEM, posted by Fall Girl on June 18, 2006, at 8:37:04
Karolina: Thanks for your concern. It was your threads that I started responding to on this board first. For obvious reasons. If you hadn't been so brave to talk about such an embarassing topic then I probably would've only lurked and never got the guts to overcome my posting paranoia. So thanks for helping me not feel so alone.
I'm concerned for you myself because we are close in age, and our T's sound of similar ages, and it sounds like there have been similar feelings and things going on. The crazy thing is that I still feel the feelings you describe for your T too. I don't know what's wrong with me. I think I'm so out of it because to me he is both a man, and not a man. He's also this larger than life, genderless, thing I've built my life upon. He is more important. It's not like I could just be with him and then disappear, as though he were someone I'd met in a bar. I do have some issues with men, and fearing sex. If I thought that wasn't in the future I don't know if I'd have been scared enough to even question the way my T and I are together.
Even as I'm scared out of my mind, and asking for help about this, I've agreed to see him today to just spend time together. We were going to take a boat ride, cause he doesn't have other plans today. I'm afraid to be lonely, and I'm nervous to go. (Not that anything would happen in public) I don't know. I shift from excited and grateful, to terrified and desperate so quickly that I don't know what I'm thinking, or what I should do the majority of the time.
Thanks for listening, EL
Posted by ElaineM on June 18, 2006, at 10:21:07
In reply to Re: keep this a secret? ELAINEM, posted by Fall Girl on June 18, 2006, at 8:37:04
FallGirl: You do not come off strong. None of you do. I get scared from even the most neutral words. From my past experiences, it takes alot of time to get an appointment with another T. It does sound less abrupt to not give him up completely though. I don't think I ever could, unless he hit me or threatened me or something like that. Though I could never picture him doing anything so unkind.
I wish I had done something sooner, because I worry that things with him could progress too quickly now to a point where I'd be forced to do something drastic, before I have time to set up anything else. And I do think I'll be devastated if I lost him, or had to leave him for any reason.
I'm so stupid. Too stupid for being 25. I don't even deserve all of your help, because I still can't control how I think and feel about him. I don't want to let all of you guys down. I wish I wasn't so afraid of physical stuff cause then I'd just be able to go with however he chooses to proceed. And maybe nothing would happen. I'd be worrying now for nothing. I hate having so many issues. I'm sorry.
El
Posted by Racer on June 18, 2006, at 10:46:59
In reply to Re: can professionals keep this a secret? » fairywings, posted by ElaineM on June 16, 2006, at 19:17:32
>
> He does know of my past abuse by my father, and a smaller incident a few years ago. That's why I think he wants to make sure he's extra caring. That's why I want to make sure I don't mistake caring for something else.That's such a huge red flag right there, as far as I'm concerned: your gut, which has learned a lot over the years, is telling you that something's wrong. And your therapist has set things up so that you're actively doubting what your Danger-O-Meter is telling you? That's not good. That's a very good way to get you into a particularly dangerous place, but it's not good in any healthy sense.
If nothing else gets through this, just let this one thought sink in: you are not mistaking true caring for anything else. You're not experiencing true caring right now from this man. True caring involves boundaries, which are not present in this situation.
> I can't believe he would use his knowledge of my past to hurt me.
I don't think he would hurt you -- intentionally. What he's doing right now, though, probably just out of his own needs, is hurting you. I wish you could read your posts and hear the pain I'm hearing in your written voice. His behavior is hurting you, no matter what his intention is.
> But he does know that I have no one else, and am lonely. It's embarassing to say but, I'm desperate, and he knows that. I wish I could just know for sure what will happen.
I can't tell you for sure what will happen in its details. I can tell you it won't be anything good...
> He says he will never end it with me. I can't picture him doing it, I just worry that it is only because I behave well and say nice things, and help him out.I can see a good chance that he will end it, and will end it abruptly. Let me tell you how I see it happening: he finally comes to his senses, realizes that he's jeopardizing his own ability to practice therapy, maybe even gets a warning from someone else. Maybe he even finds himself a REAL girlfriend, and no longer needs whatever he's getting from you. Either of those scenarios would end with an abrupt termination of you. I know you're hurting, and desparate, and really need the support you think you're getting from him. But how would you feel WHEN one of those things happens?
Remember -- if this does lead to termination as I described, he's probably NOT going to tell you why. He's just going to tell you to find someone else, he can't see you anymore.
*************************
Abusive therapy situations are terrible. They don't even have to include the sort of romantic/sexual thing you're describing to be devastating.
I had a bad experience with therapy a couple of years ago. It has left me in pretty terrible shape, and I STILL have nightmares about the therapist involved. (It's been over two years since all this happened. I'm seeing a great therapist. I STILL have nightmares when I am asleep, and I am living a nightmare of sorts when I am awake, since I internalized all the bad things she said about me into severe self doubt. It was only after more than a year after terminating with her that I was able to leave the house for anything except therapy and doctor's visits. They can do a very great deal of damage without breaking a sweat. And without meaning to. I very much doubt my Therapist From The Black Lagoon intended to hurt me. That doesn't mean she hurt me any less.)
I guess what I'm trying to say, Elaine, is that you can be hurt so much more than you might imagine in this situation, and I would hate to have htat happen. I agree with the others who said that terminating on your terms is the best, and seeing another therapist -- preferably female -- at least a few times, while you work out what you're going to do, is probably the very best you cna do for yourself.
Good luck.
Posted by fallsfall on June 18, 2006, at 16:53:32
In reply to Re: keep this a secret? FallGirl, posted by ElaineM on June 18, 2006, at 10:21:07
>From my past experiences, it takes alot of time to get an appointment with another T.
This is not always true. I was able to get appointments in about a week when I was shopping for a new therapist. Maybe this will help you:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20031213/msgs/290414.html
Good luck, and let us know how it is going.
Falls
Posted by Tamar on June 18, 2006, at 17:57:46
In reply to Re: keep this a secret? FallGirl, posted by ElaineM on June 18, 2006, at 10:21:07
> I'm so stupid. Too stupid for being 25.
Well, you’re definitely not stupid. And being 25 is still pretty young! No one can be expected to have all the answers at 25. Or 35, or 45 for that matter…
> I don't even deserve all of your help,
You deserve all the help you need.
> because I still can't control how I think and feel about him.
Well, I’ve rarely been able to control how I feel about people. But you can control what you do about him. And you don’t have to make any drastic decisions right now. The first step is simply arranging an appointment with another therapist, to talk it over. That’s all. There’s no predetermined outcome. But I do think it would help you to discuss with another therapist, even if it’s just to be able to talk about it with another human being face-to-face.
> I don't want to let all of you guys down.
Don’t worry about letting us down. That’s not what this is about. The important thing is that you can feel safe. That’s the thing that really matters. And we do understand that you’re very emotionally attached to him. We won’t judge you, whatever you decide to do.
> I wish I wasn't so afraid of physical stuff cause then I'd just be able to go with however he chooses to proceed. And maybe nothing would happen. I'd be worrying now for nothing.
Hmmm… As someone who has spent a great deal of time thinking about human sexuality, I don’t think that ‘going with however he chooses to proceed’ sounds like a very pleasurable experience. If you really wanted him sexually, you’d be saying something like, “I wish I wasn’t so afraid of physical stuff cause then I’d be able to rip off his clothes without any embarrassment,” or something like that. But the way you phrase it, it sounds as if you can’t possibly imagine enjoying sexual contact with him. And if that’s the case, there should not be any sexual contact between you and him. You are allowed to say no to him. You are allowed to tell him you aren’t ready for that kind of relationship with him or with any man. If you tell him you are not ready for sexual contact, then he MUST respect that. Anything else is assault.
And by the way, there’s no shame in not wanting to have sex at this point in your life. I’ve known many women who weren’t ready for sex at 25. It’s a very individual thing. If you have some recovering to do, you will need a lot of time. There’s no point rushing it.
> I hate having so many issues. I'm sorry.
Please don’t apologise. Most of us here have a lot of issues, so we can understand. I’m really glad you’re here and talking to us. It’s nice getting to know you.
Tamar
Posted by susan47 on June 18, 2006, at 21:35:23
In reply to can professionals keep this a secret?, posted by ElaineM on June 16, 2006, at 9:41:38
I haven't read this whole thread yet but if what you say is true then you definitely have to tell another professional about how you're feeling within this relationship with your therapist, and that person can help you come to terms with whatever will need to be done. Perhaps your therapist also needs help, and if you are both getting it then you won't have to lose him. But if you don't talk to someone else about this, you will be badly hurt, in the end. No doubt, there's no doubt about it. Yes, mean think about sex a lot. Yes, most men will jump your bones if you give them the chance. Yes, they will feel badly for it afterwards. Yes, they may even continue to make you feel good. No, their profession doesn't always make them good people to trust. Yes, you're protecting yourself by coming here.
Posted by susan47 on June 18, 2006, at 21:55:15
In reply to Re: keep this a secret? FallGirl, posted by ElaineM on June 18, 2006, at 10:21:07
You're not worrying for nothing. I believe you referred to him touching you and saying romantic things. Your worry is reality-based, if he's touching you .. what are the things he's saying, how and when is he touching you?
You've been yelled at and hit before by a man you loved and trusted ... but that doesn't mean they all will do that to you. And that doesn't mean you should love and trust every man just because he's a man. Your safety lies in your own soul, in your own being and knowing-ness ... no man will ever give that to you, in fact, many men will take that away from you. Don't let this one do that.
Posted by Fall Girl on June 18, 2006, at 22:21:00
In reply to Re: keep this a secret? FallGirl, posted by ElaineM on June 18, 2006, at 10:21:07
Oh to have the words for all that your post makes me think and feel. You are precious and attached to your T (as most of us are) by profound threads of transference from maybe even a pre-language age. From your vantage point it can be very difficult to be pro-active about such a bond. It is very much like being that defenseless child with its parent. Try to remember that you ARE an adult and that you do not have to 'go with however he chooses to proceed'. You have a voice.
It's also been my experience that getting in with a new T. can happen rather quickly, particularly if you let them know that you have concerns about what is happening with your current T. I don't know where you see this man; private practice or what, but you could contact a local university. At the university I attend, there is a psychological services center available for the community as well as students. I once had a concern about my T. and they saw me the next day (I didn't even tell them I was a student).
I have to disagree with you about one thing: "...I could never picture him doing anything so unkind." He IS doing something so unkind to you, it just isn't as obvious as hitting. He has taken advantage of your transference to him, your trust in him, your vulnerability, and has stopped providing therapy. He's broken the oath he took to do no harm.
All that I say, I say out of a feeling of sisterhood with you, and from wanting the best for you. I don't wish to judge you! FG
Posted by Karolina on June 18, 2006, at 23:15:40
In reply to Karolina, posted by ElaineM on June 18, 2006, at 10:07:40
Hey Elaine.
I hope I didn’t sound like a hypocrite in my post for saying that I agreed with the others about getting some guidance on the side from a female T. I agree that we have many of the same feelings towards our Ts and kind of similar situations, except that your T has seemed to really cross some major boundaries. Yes, my T has given me compliments, stared at my chest and legs, e-mails with me pretty frequently, has given me an extra-long hug, etc –BUT- he has never turned things around to where I have ended up giving him advice about his own issues, he doesn’t routinely touch me and tell me how it makes him feel, or has never asked to see me outside of appointments.
All of those boundaries can be so confusing and there are such fine lines that can be easily crossed. It just sounds like your T is really pushing things too far, and for all I know, I could be facing some of this with my T one day myself, but it worries me that you are scared about what’s going on and that he seems to be moving so fast. I remember you saying that you’ve been seeing him for almost 2 years, but did his touching and suggestions to get together, etc just all of the sudden come up, or has it kind of been a gradual thing? Do you know if he’s married or not? Sorry if I seem to be asking too many questions. And I hope my post isn’t offensive, I just think your T’s behavior is beginning to sound dangerous. Maybe not so much in an aggressive or threatening way, but in a way that could end up emotionally hurting or damaging you.
Since I’m in the situation too, of liking my T and having so many intense feelings for him, I can imagine how overwhelming all of this probably is for you. If my T started giving me more attention like that, like inviting me places or coming on to me sexually, I would have a very hard time saying no. I know I would. I’ve actually thought a lot lately about that type of thing happening, but you know what, anytime after I’m done fantasizing about something happening between me and him, I always get this empty sick feeling inside, I start to think about how I’d leave the appointment and then he’d go home to his wife, and I would go home to…nobody. So that tells me something. if I even have doubts or bad afterthoughts when I’ve *fantasized* about something happening, then I *know* I’d end up feeling hurt afterwards in a real situation. I don’t really know where I’m going with this but I do know that dealing with these types of feelings is very, very hard and confusing. I’m very glad that I was able to help you feel like you could open up and talk about this issue and I hope you will continue to feel safe enough to talk about it, because we are definitely here for you and will listen. Please take care,
-Karolina-
Posted by ElaineM on June 19, 2006, at 15:22:54
In reply to Re: can professionals keep this a secret?, posted by susan47 on June 18, 2006, at 21:35:23
Susan: I know, it should be untrue. It doesn't make sense to me either, that he would choose me to treat differently. He's such an organized, intelligent, mature man with a really nice life (at least as much as I've seen). It's unbelievable to think that he would want to be around someone so screwed-up any more than he had to. It's not like I'm even pretty.
That's why I question myself so much, and am so afraid to tell my doctor, or another T. I can't believe it myself so why would anyone else? Here I am worried that my doc wouldn't keep it between the two of us, when she probably wouldn't even believe me in the first place. It's not like I can prove anything. It'd be a T-said vs. messed-up-she-said thing.
If I pushed myself to say something and had it doubted by her then I'd die. I couldn't take it. I'd lose my mind. Though if I had to choose I'd rather feel like crap myself than get him in trouble.
Thanks for showing concern. Though I kind of think that I'm just getting more and more scared by trying to figure this out.
El
Posted by ElaineM on June 19, 2006, at 16:02:19
In reply to Re: Karolina » ElaineM, posted by Karolina on June 18, 2006, at 23:15:40
All: I saw my T today and I told him that I had to cancel my next appointment. Just one though. I'll be seeing my doctor this week for a pre-scheduled appointment and I thought that if I saw him right before that I'd be too nervous, and feel too guilty, to even mention the problem even in the smallest way. He was really sad. I've only tried to cancel once before. It was the session right after the first time he gave me a present and I freaked out. It's kind of dumb now that I think back but it made me really confused. I sort of thought that I'd have to give him something in return. (I kind of did, though something small. It was the only time I've ever asked if he wanted me to hug him back.) He was sad then too and kept saying how important it was for me to be there, and to please try really hard because he misses me when I'm not there. He said a version of the same this time and kept saying that we could meet somewhere else instead, closer to my home, or at a later time in the day. I kept saying that it wouldn't be possible and that I wouldn't want him to rearrange his day incase I was late or there was a problem.
I feel so guilty. Now I get to add Liar to my diagnosis. And I'm so nervous about my doctor. She has no idea at all that I'm going to burden her with this. It will be so out of the blue. I only started thinking of maybe telling her last week, when I knew this appointment was already coming up.
I'm so two-faced. I saw him for a little bit on Father's Day (but I bailed on the boat idea) and he even gave me a flower. It was only one but I still took it! And I said Thankyou and smiled and let him hug me (or hugged him, I don't know). Then today he kept touching my face and it was driving me crazy. I told him before that touching my face makes me feel uncomfortable (it does more than other parts of me) but I think he forgot. I only said it twice maybe. The more I write on here, the worse I am at being okay with his closeness. Even the stuff that is benign. But there is a big part of me that wants to cry and fight to keep him even closer. I hate myself.
I don't know if I can do this. I already feel like I'm going to be sick. I'm going to burst out of myself being this afraid. In the end I always cave. I hope I don't go see him before, but I might not be able to help it.
Elaine
Sorry I haven't got around to responding much. But thank you for your input, Falls, Tofu, Racer. (hoping you read this)
Posted by Tamar on June 19, 2006, at 16:54:25
In reply to I saw him, posted by ElaineM on June 19, 2006, at 16:02:19
Elaine,
You’re a very courageous woman. You’re handling this really well. It isn’t easy at all.
I think it was a very good idea to cancel your next appointment.
I hope you won’t mind if I highlight a few more examples of his inappropriate behaviour. I’m not doing it to criticise him or you, but because I suspect you may be wondering if those things are inappropriate. And if so, I want to confirm it for you.
1. He should not have given you a present. Giving presents can lead the client to expect more from the relationship than the therapist can legitimately give.
2. He should not try to guilt-trip you into keeping appointments. That kind of behaviour is essentially emotional manipulation and should not be used on vulnerable clients.
3. He should never say he misses you when you’re not there, and especially not as a way to try to get you to come to your appointment. Disclosing his feelings in this way can lead you to believe that your purpose in the relationship is to gratify his feelings and meet his needs. That is not how things should be.
4. He should not have touched your face. Intimate touch in therapy is frowned upon by most therapists, and is particularly dangerous with clients who have experienced abuse. Touching can have multiple meanings to the client, many of which the therapist will have no idea of, since he can’t know absolutely everything about you. Touching your face could be frightening or intimidating for you. It is highly unprofessional of him to assume that he can touch you without any ill-effects.
5. If you have told him you don’t like having your face touched, he should have made a special effort to remember that. To be honest, that part of the situation makes me *extremely* uneasy. Perhaps he did forget… or perhaps he was trying to manipulate your emotions. Given his inability to stick to appropriate boundaries, I can’t assume his motivation was pure. But that’s just me.
> I feel so guilty. Now I get to add Liar to my diagnosis.
You are not a liar. It really *isn’t* possible for you to be there. It’s emotionally impossible, rather than logistically, impossible, but it’s still impossible.
> And I'm so nervous about my doctor. She has no idea at all that I'm going to burden her with this. It will be so out of the blue. I only started thinking of maybe telling her last week, when I knew this appointment was already coming up.
I think telling your doctor is an excellent idea.
> The more I write on here, the worse I am at being okay with his closeness. Even the stuff that is benign.
I don’t think any of what you’ve described is benign. Much of it is actually very dangerous.
> But there is a big part of me that wants to cry and fight to keep him even closer. I hate myself.
Maybe… maybe what you want is a feeling of closeness and a feeling of being loved. And I have no doubt that you are loveable and there are people in the world who will be able to hold you close and make you feel safe. But he is not one of those people. Your therapist cannot do that for you. He is one of the few people in this world who absolutely cannot make you feel loved in that particular way. His job is to help you explore ways of finding that kind of love and safety *outside* therapy.
At the moment it seems he’s trying to give you the love and safety you crave. But it comes at the cost of your therapy. He is not doing therapy with you. In fact, he has damaged the therapeutic relationship very badly. And I don’t think he can do this forever. I don’t think he can continue to have a non-therapeutic relationship with you forever.
> I don't know if I can do this. I already feel like I'm going to be sick. I'm going to burst out of myself being this afraid. In the end I always cave. I hope I don't go see him before, but I might not be able to help it.
If you feel yourself wavering, post at Babble. We will help! You do not need to cave. You have already shown so much courage. You can do this. We’ll be thinking of you.
Tamar
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