![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 35. Go back in thread:
Posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:03:07
In reply to Re: Confusing Session » daisym, posted by Dinah on June 22, 2005, at 1:50:20
Thanks for the non-nose hug, Dinah. I keep reading that this sort of thing happens, I think my confusion is that it feels like is has partway happened. I'm having dreams and questions are popping up, but I don't have fantasies of us together that way.
Besides, I hate, hate, hate that I'm a cliche.
*sigh*
Posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:06:15
In reply to Re: Confusing Session, posted by annierose on June 22, 2005, at 7:09:22
ooh, Annie, I feel anything but brave. I told my therapist yesterday that I'm like Pavlov's dogs, so well trained that I don't hold much back anymore. Something about sitting down on that couch that pushes aside my pride. And then I leave and think, "I can't believe I said that!"
He told me yesterday that one of the most valuable things for me about therapy is having this safe place to say anything I'm thinking or feeling without worry. He thinks everyone needs it and he keeps pointing out how therapy can be a refueling station. I guess I'm an SUV because I need to refuel a lot!
I appreciate your support.
Posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:10:06
In reply to Re: Confusing Session, posted by LadyBug on June 22, 2005, at 8:24:19
I really wish I knew why it has to be so hard. I guess it doesn't. If we could stay on the surface and work on the symptoms and not the cause it wouldn't hurt this much.
I don't mind him not answering questions but I feel like I'm breaking the rules when I ask them. Like it isn't polite and I'm going to get my hand slapped. He refuses most of the time to pick up on my subtle hints and waits for me to directly ask for something. My biggest problem is that I really don't know why the questions flare up -- isn't it HIS job to know?!
Vacation will be nearly two weeks. He's back 7/5. I wish I was as small as I felt so I could go in his pocket.
Posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:14:04
In reply to Re: Confusing Session » daisym, posted by cricket on June 22, 2005, at 8:34:18
Cricket,
I know about keeping it all hidden IRL. I can't imagine trying to explain any of this to someone who isn't in the middle of it too. I have a hard time explaining it to myself.
Do you tell your therapist that you want to undress him sometimes? If so, what does he say? I love your story about the phone call. I think it is sweet that he is willing to try different things to build your trust.
I'll keep posting if you will.
Posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:18:48
In reply to You and your T both rock :-) Amazing !!! » daisym, posted by pinkeye on June 22, 2005, at 13:59:07
I'm sure it was hard to "confess" via email -- no body language to interpret or gauge so how do you know their reaction?
I think the possibility of rejection comes into play here, I'm just not sure how yet. I keep thinking if I don't *really* want to have sex with him, what part of any of this would feel like rejection? But it is there anyway.
I guess I understand the origins of the childlike feelings but I don't these others. Which makes it hard for me to admit having them.
Someone else asked for their personal behavior explanation book. I need one too!
Posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:28:40
In reply to Re: Confusing Session, posted by Aphrodite on June 22, 2005, at 15:12:21
> I also told him I was tired of leaving sessions upset and in pieces, it was too hard to keep trying to put myself back together.
<<<I would be interested in how he responded to this. Are you feeling like that all the time or just lately since this subject has arisen?
******I think I'm feeling like this because I can't get to what I want to say until the last 10 minutes and then of course I'm frustrated that I have to stop. He said we could try to stop sooner so we could talk about stopping, but he worries that I'll be even more frustrated with being cut off. I think it has a lot to do with feeling so lonely and left out and even a bit jealous. I haven't felt these things before about his other clients or his "real" life. I need to get a handle on them quick!>We talked about my attempt to build another triangle (a reenactment) similar to my mom, my dad and myself. It got uncomfortable and I moved away from it.
Maybe you should gently return to this? If you're anything like me, wanting to divert and change topics means I have gotten dangerously close to something powerful.
****I'm sure we need to return to this. I just couldn't. It is too fresh a wound with seeing them both together last week. I can't even write about this, I fall asleep at the key board or have to get up and do something else. The anxiety goes sky high.
You weren't long winded at all. I appreciate you sharing your experience. I do think it all gets easily confused. The question on the table is "Is sex currency, and if it is, how am I willing to use it?" I really need to figure out the answer to that one.I'm counting on you to help me get through the next two weeks. I keep telling him I'll be "fine" --but the not so secret truth is that I don't think I will. I think I'll be a mess. Who knows?
Posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:30:09
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (long) » daisym, posted by Tamar on June 22, 2005, at 15:20:02
You said some things that really struck a cord with me. I want to respond more fully, but I'm off to therapy just now. I'll be back.
And, no worries about telling your story. That is what I asked for!
Posted by All Done on June 22, 2005, at 16:41:16
In reply to Re: Confusing Session » All Done, posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:00:45
> I have two more sessions before he leaves. :(
I know it's not the same, but we'll be here for you.
> I think I specifically meant childlike longings to be taken care of. This is something that never happened for me, I was practically running the whole household at 9. My mom worked 6 days a week and my babysister was not even 2 yet. I think there is a lot of stuff in here about protection and not being invisible too.From reading your other posts, I figured that's what you meant, but I didn't want to presume. I think it's great that you've pinpointed you're desire to be taken care of. That's a big step. Although I must admit, even though I think I know what some of my feelings are really about, it hasn't changed anything, yet. I'm not sure what's supposed to happen next.
I think your T is doing a pretty good job of taking care of you. It's probably just going to take awhile for you to feel comfortable accepting that care since you aren't used to it.
> It is hard to bring up these things, isn't it? If you want to share more, I'd be interested in knowing what you are deciding all this means. The more I try to think about it, the more it slips away. So I don't know what I want. I guess this is resistance at its finest.
Well, part of where I think my feelings are coming from is a longing to be wanted. My mom didn't allow my dad to do or say anything that she may have considered inappropriate. With her history of abuse, the list was long. He never told me he loved me, gave me hugs, or told me I was pretty (among other things). Nothing that may have made me feel wanted by him. Apparently, according to my T, little girls need this from their dads (to a safe extent, of course).
During my last session, my T asked me if I thought my dad wanted me before I was born. I knew that answer right away. I don't think he did. He was more than happy to go along with anything my mom wanted (or demanded) like having a baby, but I never got the feeling much of what he did was because he wanted to. Except his drinking, of course. Don't get me wrong, I think he loved me in his own way after I got here, but...
> I don't know if this will come up today. Little daisy is having a hard time with him leaving and I'm just gonna let her out fullforce (I think.) It is too exhausting holding the lid on.
I think it's important to let little daisy say what she needs to say before he leaves. That way, he can help before the lid pops off on its own.
> Besides, I hate, hate, hate that I'm a cliche.
I know that feeling all to well. The first time I told him about a dream I had about him that was quite sexual, I was whining by the end of the session that I'm just an open book and he must have me completely figured out already. I felt like he could have looked at a textbook to find out what my next session would be like. Although I did tell him that I wouldn't be falling in love with him anytime soon ;).
Good luck, Daisy. Lots of hugs to you and little daisy.
Laurie
Posted by messadivoce on June 22, 2005, at 17:40:59
In reply to Confusing Session, posted by daisym on June 22, 2005, at 0:45:42
I've turned your post around in my mind all day, and I have a few thoughts.
I admire you so much for having the courage to ask questions about your T's life, even if you don't get the answers you want. I admire his directness with his question, "In bed?". I can imagine how matter-of-factly he must have posed it. I can relate to curiosity about his marriage, and I envy my former T's wife for the tenderness I am sure she gets from him. Just being able to recall how gentle and tender he was with me, makes me think how much of a wealth of it he must have with her.
Do you think you envy the tenderness he must give to her during intimacy, without wanting the actual sex? I know I envy my T's wife that way. I guess the danger comes when we are willing to have sex to get that intimacy, and when our T's or other men take advantage of that.
I was not brave enough to discuss sex in the context of "us" (my T and me). Even as I write this post I am blushing red. I know he would have handled it with utmost sensitivity, and we would not have cease analyzing it until my *real" desire was uncovered, as opposed to just sex and/or intimacy. Which is just the way it should be.
Damn that transference.
I hope this makes some sort of sense.
Posted by daisym on June 22, 2005, at 23:52:12
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (long) » Tamar, posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:30:09
>>>>>>. And once I’d figured out what it was (after spending a few days thinking I’d fallen in love) I started trying to figure out what to do about it.
<<<<OK, that is a HUGE question for me -- how DO you know whether you've fallen in love or not? I've been "married" to my husband since I was 18. I had one serious boyfriend before that and we went as far as kissing. (poor guy) I had a few other dates, but I drank my way through my senior year of high school so I don't remember much about them. I think the summer between high school and college was the only time I "experimented" sexually, but only when I'd been drinking ALOT. Let's just say that I usually kept all of my clothes on...
>>>>>>>Everything I read suggested I should talk to my therapist about it. I really didn’t want to. For several weeks I was consumed with longing for him between sessions, but when I was actually in session with him the problem didn’t seem too awful and I couldn’t imagine confessing. And I was sure his response would feel like a rejection and that I’d feel worse.
<<<<<The rejection things is a huge part of this. Having these feelings has triggered off the list of the things I don't like about myself physically, stuff I've always hated as well as stuff I thought I'd gotten OK with. In my head, I'm telling myself that part of the reason it isn't OK to have these feelings is that he deserves to have some sweet, beautiful young thing offer herself, that this is ludicrous that I would even think that he would be attracted to me. (Not that I think he is, but when I try to figure out what I want, part of that is him caring about me, more than the client stuff, and I don't think he does/could because I'm not attractive enough. Does that make any sense?) I guess it feels very egotistical and presumptuous.
<<<<<Eventually I decided I did want to tell him. Sort of. Maybe. After all, I trusted him, and many therapists seem to be able to handle that sort of thing with sensitivity. So a few times I started skirting the issue in session with the intention of telling him. But every time I did this he seemed to head me off at the pass. I thought either I was being paranoid, or I was approaching it wrong and he expected me to be able to come right out and say it. I really felt as if he was discouraging me from talking about it. And because of that I thought he must have guessed how I felt, and I concluded that he considered my feelings to be disgusting and unacceptable.
>>>>>OUCH. I'm sorry things happened this way. I did tell my therapist that I was worried that he would tell me he needed me to see someone else, that he couldn't cope with my feelings. I guess I'm lucky, when I skirt issues, he will help me bring them out. When I skirt questions though, he won't answer unless asked straight out.
<<<<<Recently I’ve come to think perhaps he had a theoretical orientation that involved keeping transference from becoming the focus of therapy (because it was short term therapy). But at the time I didn’t know about that possibility, and feeling unable to talk about it was enormously confusing and distressing. I continued to believe he thought I was utterly repulsive until he shook my hand in our very last session. Only when he actually touched me did I begin to think perhaps I wasn’t as untouchable and revolting to him as I’d assumed. And therefore it was only after termination that I finally understood I could have talked to him and he would have accepted whatever I had to say.
>>>>>>I'm sure you are probably right about his theoretical orientation. But since you didn't know that at the time, I'm sure it was painful. It must have gotten in the way for a while. I too believe I'm untouchable but it is because I think I'm scary. I guess I think he thinks that if he touches me, I'll REALLY have transference. That story about the woman who was needy about her hugs and her therapist labeled her greedy really sticks with me. I think I'm emotionally taxing enough.
<<<<<I didn’t want to make this post all about me. I simply realize how wonderful your situation is. Your therapist is not only aware of the likelihood of your developing sexual feelings towards him, but can also encourage you to talk about those feelings. Nothing you can say will shock him. Nothing you can say will disgust him. He’s never going to think your feelings are inappropriate. He’s never going to be overwhelmed by the intensity of your feelings. I firmly believe he will help you to feel that any feelings of desire for him are acceptable and understandable, and that he will help you process them.
>>>>>>I want to wail at you, "HOW DO YOU KNOW HE IS NEVER GOING TO BE OVERWHELMED?"...sorry, didn't mean to shout. I do know I'm lucky. I wish I could claim to have chosen carefully but I had no idea what I needed when I started. He just "felt" right. Lucky for me he believes in long term therapy. Today he promised to come back from his vacation because "we aren't finished working." He said, "You know that right? I'm in this with you to the end..." My brain knows. My gut is all twisted up. I'm so afraid he will get perspective and realize just how intense this need for him is.
<<<<<<<From reading your post, I think you’re doing everything right. Keep being honest with him; it’s the best way to let him help you. You ask if it’s more acceptable to have childlike longings to be taken care of than to have more adult feelings… well, I’d say it might possibly feel less acceptable to you when you have adult feelings (like you said: you don’t allow it). But it’s not less acceptable to your therapist.
>>>>>>I guess the adult feelings are more confusing because there is this element of pride that comes into play. I felt kind of silly when I first felt these little kid feelings with him so intensely but I can accept the idea of regression and I can even accept that it is useful. But what could possibly be useful about arousal occurring in therapy? I don't have a clue what it means or what I'm supposed to learn from it. I think it is scary to be honest about this because I don't like surprises and I have no idea where these feelings are leading.
<<<<Although I never told my therapist about my feelings for him, I did find it extremely useful to work through those feelings on my own. So although it was extremely painful, I was ultimately glad that I had the feelings and that I had the resources to explore them and figure out what they meant to me. My therapist helped me with them indirectly by helping me learn to think psychologically. But I do feel it would be better to work through them with a therapist (which is why, if I do therapy again, it’ll be long term therapy with plenty of scope for transference).
>>>>>>I know this is really personal, and I completely understand if you decline to answer, but I'd like to know what they meant to you. Because I don't even have "X" to start with. How did you work through these feelings? In the middle of the night I am usually very, very honest with myself. I think I know what I've felt and I can sort of label things but I can't get a handle on why things are changing. And why are they changing into this?! Of all people, you would think I would know better than to offer someone this kind of information about me, to potentially use against me.
<<<<I know it’s a scary place. But I’m certain your therapist will help make it safer.
>>>>He's trying. Today I told him that I really, really wished that we were in the tree-house office. I needed the safety of the smaller space. He said, "ceilings too high here?" which is in reference to my escape mechanism of "sitting" up above us when things get too intense. He never asks me to come down, though he will sometimes ask me if I can come back into the room if I leave completely. Once he asked me if he could come up with me. I've been out the window a lot these days.
Thanks for the long post. I really want to "talk" about this as I struggle to understand it. I hope you don't mind all the questions.
Posted by daisym on June 23, 2005, at 0:05:55
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (maybe triggers?) » Daisym, posted by All Done on June 22, 2005, at 16:41:16
Thank you for sharing so much. I've said it before but parenting is so complicated. My therapist tells me that it is important to let myself acknowledge the love I did get from my dad, especially when I was really young. Girls do need their daddies, but they need their daddies to have strong boundaries, kind of like good therapists!
What strikes me is your wanting to be wanted. I worked hard to be invisible but there is this longing now to be seen -- really seen---and wanted anyway. I think that might be one of the primary reasons therapy is so important to me. I'm letting someone see me, the real me, and so far he hasn't sent me away or asked me to hide anything.
I asked Tamar, but I'll ask you too...how are you able to distinguish your feelings as "purely" sexual and not love? And what did your therapist say when you whined at him about being a cliche?
I bet he said you are uniquely you...and for that I'm grateful.
Posted by daisym on June 23, 2005, at 0:19:33
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (triggery) » daisym, posted by messadivoce on June 22, 2005, at 17:40:59
You make lots of sense!
>>>>Do you think you envy the tenderness he must give to her during intimacy, without wanting the actual sex? I know I envy my T's wife that way. I guess the danger comes when we are willing to have sex to get that intimacy, and when our T's or other men take advantage of that.
<<<<<A while back I had a dream that my therapist was teaching me how to enjoy sex. It was clear that what he was teaching me was how to be close to someone. When we talked about this dream, we agreed that I wanted intimacy and closeness in my life. This was about that time that I started to really acknowledge what was missing from my relationships. I was so busy taking care of everyone else that I never let them care for or see me. I've written about it here. Therapy can make you so lonely because you learn what it feels like to be understood and what it might mean to merge emotionally with someone and not get hurt. I think that is why I say I'm jealous of "them" not "her." It is the relationship I imagine they have that I want in my life, not necessarily him. But, I do have to say we used to have a poster who was married to a therapist and she had plenty of complaints about him. I suspect they might save the bulk of their patience for their clients.
You've hit on my absolute biggest fear. I'm afraid of myself. I wonder, what lengths would I go to to avoid being left? OR to feel special? I wonder over and over again if I think sex can be used as currency in some way. Intellectually I tell myself "no." But my body has betrayed me before, so...so.
Thank you for making me think about this more.
Posted by Tamar on June 23, 2005, at 6:05:10
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (long) » Daisym, posted by daisym on June 22, 2005, at 23:52:12
> <<<<OK, that is a HUGE question for me -- how DO you know whether you've fallen in love or not? I've been "married" to my husband since I was 18. I had one serious boyfriend before that and we went as far as kissing. (poor guy) I had a few other dates, but I drank my way through my senior year of high school so I don't remember much about them. I think the summer between high school and college was the only time I "experimented" sexually, but only when I'd been drinking ALOT. Let's just say that I usually kept all of my clothes on...As far as I can tell, falling in love is about having powerful loving feelings combined with intense sexual attraction. And that’s what erotic transference feels like to me; it’s just the same as falling in love. Maybe it *is* the same. When I fell in love with my husband I knew very little about him; when I got to know him I came to love him in a more realistic way (I mean that I discovered he had faults and I loved him anyway). I think getting to know someone can transform those initial feelings into a more stable, less overwhelming feeling of love as the relationship progresses.
When I was younger I experimented sexually a lot. I didn’t fall in love with all my partners, but I loved most of them as friends. I have fallen in love a few times in my life: with two boyfriends before my husband, and then with my husband.
My therapist was the first person I fell in love with who was off-limits. However, I did fall in love with a man a few years ago, and he loved me too, but we didn’t want to have an affair because we were both married. So we were close friends instead. And although I wanted very much to tear off his clothes I would never have done it in real life because I knew it would lead to feelings of guilt that would have ended the friendship. I think of my feelings for my therapist in a similar way. Perhaps I could have tried to seduce him, but if he’d been willing it would have meant the end of the therapeutic aspect of the relationship, and I didn’t want to compromise the good thing I had for a couple of hours of sex. And of course I knew his boundaries were good and he’d never do it.
> <<<<<The rejection things is a huge part of this. Having these feelings has triggered off the list of the things I don't like about myself physically, stuff I've always hated as well as stuff I thought I'd gotten OK with. In my head, I'm telling myself that part of the reason it isn't OK to have these feelings is that he deserves to have some sweet, beautiful young thing offer herself, that this is ludicrous that I would even think that he would be attracted to me. (Not that I think he is, but when I try to figure out what I want, part of that is him caring about me, more than the client stuff, and I don't think he does/could because I'm not attractive enough. Does that make any sense?) I guess it feels very egotistical and presumptuous.
That makes perfect sense to me. I felt that if my therapist were to get involved with a client, he could do better than me; that I wasn’t attractive enough to be noticed; that he would be repulsed by all my physical flaws. Then I realised that (for me anyway) that feeling of being unattractive is very deep and very old. And it’s not just about sexual desire; I imagine that people might not want to be friends with me because I’m not attractive enough.
The odd thing is that I don’t actually seem to have any difficulty attracting men, despite my obvious defects. I’ve had plenty of partners… Possibly the reason I was such a bike in my youth was a need to have my desirability validated. And of course, it didn’t really work because there was always a part of me that assumed men were intimate with me simply because I was available and not because they were attracted to me…
But the other thing was that I came to understand that my physical appearance wasn’t stopping me from being sexually intimate with my therapist. The thing that was stopping me was the therapeutic boundaries. Strangely enough, that knowledge actually makes me feel better about myself. I am free to imagine that perhaps he would have loved to get it on with me in different circumstances. And maybe there’s more to attraction than a ‘perfect’ body; I think men as well as women are interested in their partner’s character and personality. The same goes for caring in non-sexual ways.
> >>>>>OUCH. I'm sorry things happened this way. I did tell my therapist that I was worried that he would tell me he needed me to see someone else, that he couldn't cope with my feelings. I guess I'm lucky, when I skirt issues, he will help me bring them out. When I skirt questions though, he won't answer unless asked straight out.
There are some therapists who can’t cope with these feelings. However, I really think your therapist can. Not only does he anticipate intense feelings, he also seems to have the perceptiveness and experience to deal with them. It’s great that he helps you bring out issues.
> >>>>>>I'm sure you are probably right about his theoretical orientation. But since you didn't know that at the time, I'm sure it was painful. It must have gotten in the way for a while. I too believe I'm untouchable but it is because I think I'm scary. I guess I think he thinks that if he touches me, I'll REALLY have transference. That story about the woman who was needy about her hugs and her therapist labeled her greedy really sticks with me. I think I'm emotionally taxing enough.
Yeah, that story about the needy woman with the hugs resonated with me too. Have you talked to your therapist about touching? I was very struck by your feeling that his touch could induce transference. I can imagine you might feel very afraid of the intensity of feeling that touch could provoke in you, and very afraid of his possible reaction. I’m not saying I think you should touch him, but I wonder if it could be useful to you to talk about what touching might be like. (I don’t want to scare you… But nevertheless, I think he might have some useful things to say.)
> >>>>>>I want to wail at you, "HOW DO YOU KNOW HE IS NEVER GOING TO BE OVERWHELMED?"...sorry, didn't mean to shout.
Sorry. I will admit immediately that I’m not omniscient! But from everything you’ve posted about him, it seems abundantly clear that he is educated, experienced and professional. It is true that some therapists can feel overwhelmed when dealing with clients whose stories are severely troubling. But from what I’ve read, that usually happens when therapists are not experienced enough to know how to explore their feelings for the client and their countertransference reactions. It sounds as if your therapist knows how to take care of himself (perhaps with supervision or something similar, and perhaps by having the emotional maturity to distinguish between your feelings and his). He seems to tell you that he can hear and accept anything you are able to tell say. It may be difficult to believe him, especially if you feel that your emotions are too challenging for most people, but fortunately he isn’t most people. I guess it’s a matter of continuing to test him whenever you need to.
> >>>>>>I guess the adult feelings are more confusing because there is this element of pride that comes into play. I felt kind of silly when I first felt these little kid feelings with him so intensely but I can accept the idea of regression and I can even accept that it is useful. But what could possibly be useful about arousal occurring in therapy? I don't have a clue what it means or what I'm supposed to learn from it. I think it is scary to be honest about this because I don't like surprises and I have no idea where these feelings are leading.
I don’t like surprises either! And I can understand why you ask what could possibly be useful about arousal in therapy. I think the short answer is that therapy is a safe place to explore what arousal means to you.
> >>>>>>I know this is really personal, and I completely understand if you decline to answer, but I'd like to know what they meant to you. Because I don't even have "X" to start with. How did you work through these feelings? In the middle of the night I am usually very, very honest with myself. I think I know what I've felt and I can sort of label things but I can't get a handle on why things are changing. And why are they changing into this?! Of all people, you would think I would know better than to offer someone this kind of information about me, to potentially use against me.
I don’t mind answering at all. It took a long time to work through the feelings but I think I know now what’s going on. I wrote everything down and tried to explore all the possibilities. It took several months to be thoroughly honest about some of it; I kept touching on it and then backing away. But eventually I think it made some sense.
When I was seeing my therapist I spent a lot of time talking about being raped when I was a teenager. I realised that starting to talk about it had coincided with the beginnings of the erotic transference but I didn’t know what the connection was. Surely if I were going to experience transference connected with the attack it should be negative transference? That would have made sense to me. But there I was, stuck with nasty shameful erotic transference. I came to the conclusion that the most likely connection was about my body’s betrayal in responding to the assault. And I think of it all in a rather counter-intuitive way: the feelings I transferred to my therapist were feelings about what my attackers didn’t do, rather than what they did do. They didn’t give me any real sexual pleasure; they only gave me physiological arousal. They didn’t arouse me in a context of safety and joy; they contextualized my arousal with fear and disgust and shame. They didn’t see me as a real person; they objectified me. They weren’t interested my potential as a lover and they didn’t want me to give them real sexual pleasure; they wanted to get off on their power over me.
So I think I wanted to retell the story with my therapist and rewrite it. I wanted him to take their place and change the story; I wanted him not just to arouse me but to give me pleasure, and I wanted him to enjoy the pleasure I could give him. I felt the safety of the therapeutic frame and I wanted to experience sexual intimacy in that safe space. I wanted him to want *me*. I wanted to feel like a woman with a man.
I think I started to realize what was going on when a fantasy popped into my head one day when I was driving home from work. It was a fantasy of sex with my therapist and another man I knew. Until that moment I couldn’t possibly have imagined any fantasy of a threeway with two men; it was just too triggering. But instead of putting it out of my mind I gave it some space and surprisingly enough it did go some way towards rewriting the story. In fact it was probably more effective at rewriting the story than real sex with my real therapist could ever be.
There was some other stuff as well… (This is embarrassing… much blushing…) One thing in particular was that I developed a very phallic conception of therapeutic safety. I had a kind of fantasy that my therapist had a safe penis. Thinking about it had a kind of calming influence on me. I know, I’m really nuts! But even that was useful to think about, because I came to realize that I’m a bit frightened of male genitalia. And whenever I think of a penis I imagine it ready for action, whereas in reality most of them spend most of their time asleep.
Realizing all those things helped some, and also led me to begin to acknowledge some earlier abuse in my childhood, which I’m currently keeping in a small box on a high shelf. I’ll get to it some day if I ever get around to doing long term therapy. Until then, I can contain it without it hurting too much.
I still have a strong sexual attraction for my therapist, which isn’t too surprising because the man is HOT! And I still experience some of the erotic transference. These things seem to continue after termination, at least for me. But I don’t find any of it overwhelming or shameful any more.
I don’t know if that’s any help with your situation. I know it’s quite different. But the question of why your feelings are changing in this way is clearly an important one. My impression is that for people with a history of sexual assault or abuse it’s extremely common to experience some degree of erotic transference. Or at least, it can be helpful to experience these feelings. I think it happens because there’s such a huge emotional conflict between how things were and how things could have been different, if that makes sense. I thought about how a counter-intuitive approach to csa might look, but I’m uneasy about posting it because it might be too triggering. If you want me to, though, I’ll post it.
> Thanks for the long post. I really want to "talk" about this as I struggle to understand it. I hope you don't mind all the questions.
I don’t mind at all. Talking helps me too!
Posted by messadivoce on June 23, 2005, at 11:23:20
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (triggery) » messadivoce, posted by daisym on June 23, 2005, at 0:19:33
<<<You've hit on my absolute biggest fear. I'm afraid of myself. I wonder, what lengths would I go to to avoid being left? OR to feel special? I wonder over and over again if I think sex can be used as currency in some way. Intellectually I tell myself "no." But my body has betrayed me before, so...so.>>>
This reminds me of a paragraph of "In Session." Something about how being in therapy makes our desires run smack up against the built-in boundaries of the therapeutic relationship.
I think your T has proven that he will not allow your desires to overrun your relationship with him, nor will you be forced to "pay" for what you are getting from him with your body. This is his job, after all. Amazing how simple his job really is, but also amazing how many T's can't walk the fine line of working with desires, but not gratifying them, or otherwise allowing them to sabatoge the therapy.
But I hope you agree that yours has handled this very skillfully. By this I mean that you have to TALK about what is behind your desires, not act on them. Does talking about your fears take away their power?
Posted by pinkeye on June 23, 2005, at 13:05:28
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (long) ***TRIGGERS*** » daisym, posted by Tamar on June 23, 2005, at 6:05:10
Tamar
Your post and insight was awesome. Plus I think you should also read the book Courage to Heal. I was really impressed with it as well.Also I would like to listen more to what you have to say which you didn't - about the counter intuitive approach.. You can maybe put *********BIG TRIGGER *********** in the subject and post ??
Posted by pinkeye on June 23, 2005, at 14:25:46
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (long) » Daisym, posted by daisym on June 22, 2005, at 23:52:12
Hi Daisy,
From what I did - the key to working through these sexual feelings is again and again directing your mental focus to what you really feel/want rather than focussing on your T so much.That is what I have been doing - whenever I feel like thinking about my ex T, nowadays, I try to look for what I thought he really stood for - caring/gentle/authoritative/father like/even abusive/unavailable/unemotional/logical/ - what attributes he has and how I feel about the attributes rather than focussing on him as a person. And also I think of my own response to different attributes - if I think of him as my father like, then I think of what it would mean to me to have a relationship with a father like person - if he would repeat the same mistakes/abuses that my father did. If I think he is not like my father - then I think what it would mean to me have a relationship wiht a person who is not so much like my father.
And some insight I found was that - it didn't really so much matter to me what my ex T thought of me or what he really is - I was more influenced by what I felt about myself.. If I felt I deserved a caring/gentle/affectionate/available person or if I felt my body is disgusting/or hate myself/or think I should be treated in an abusive way by my husband.
Posted by Daisym on June 23, 2005, at 15:26:34
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (long) ***TRIGGERS*** » daisym, posted by Tamar on June 23, 2005, at 6:05:10
I'd like to hear the rest of your thoughts. I think I can take them.
What you said makes a lot of sense, about wanting to rewrite your story. I want to think about it and mull it over in my head. Because it answers the question for me of "how could *I* knowing how dangerous those feelings are, want this?" The more I try to understand all of this, the more I don't seem to want this.
I think I should try to ask about the touching stuff. Maybe when he gets back from his vacation. Because I've been thinking I'd like to hug him good-bye but then I'm afraid he will "notice" how unattractive I am if I get that close to him. And I'm sure that I'm talking about physical stuff but I'm equally sure I'm talking about other stuff too. Somehow I guess I think I will contaminate him. For a long time I felt so young and small that I didn't want to get close enough to gage his real size. Or have it brought back into reality. I needed him to be big enough to protect me. Now I feel like I'm so big that I would squash him. Again, has nothing to do with my real size, because I'd guess I'm 4 or 5 inches shorter than he is. (OK, OK, I am a bit wider.) Touch is fraught with peril for me. I hate to be touched. My friend who is a therapist wants me to have physical therapy so I will let go of my tension in my neck and begin to associate touch with relaxation. I have another friend who goes to holding therapy. The therapist literally holds her head and neck. She said she cries the whole time. (She experienced severe csa.)
I love what you said about your phallic safety issue. I guess because I have boys that part of the anatomy doesn't bother me much. I'm much more hung up on my own parts and what is showing and not showing. The more I think about this, the more I'm getting clear that I'm afraid of my own ability to be seductive. I think I'm not at all, but what if I am wrong? Most women are proud of that ability -- I think it turns good men into bad people. I'll have to think about this some more. Maybe I want my therapist to want the woman in me but because I'm pretty regressed still with him, this feels really, really wrong.
Thanks Tamar, you've given me some real insights to myself. I sooo appreciate the time you are taking to hash through this with me. I hope it isn't too painful to retell these details. I'll hug you in a safe way -- ((((Tamar))))
Posted by Tamar on June 23, 2005, at 17:52:08
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (long) ***TRIGGERS*** » Tamar, posted by Daisym on June 23, 2005, at 15:26:34
> I'd like to hear the rest of your thoughts. I think I can take them.
Well, since I posted earlier I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s not really so counter-intuitive as all that. But this is what I was thinking about csa and rewriting the story:
Naturally, a little girl wants to marry her daddy. But he doesn’t marry her, even though he makes her do things that are appropriate in marital relationships. He doesn’t give her age-appropriate sexual pleasure ( because only she can give herself age-appropriate sexual pleasure); instead he foists a frightening adult experience on her. He doesn’t allow her to merge with him; instead he dominates her. He doesn’t let her have an honest relationship with her mommy (because he makes her keep a secret); instead he keeps mommy for himself.
When she has a mature body with adult sexual responses, her experience of arousal won’t be the same as a child’s. But she might still want to rewrite the story with a man who will match his sexual interest in her with an emotional commitment to her; a man who will treat her as a partner instead of as a junior; a man who will allow her to be open about her needs and who will do his best to satisfy them, instead of simply satisfying his own needs.
But it’s extra-confusing because at the same time she wants to sit on his lap while he reads to her.
I imagine that having confusing feelings of transference for a therapist might involve wanting to feel sexually safe both as a child and as an adult. So perhaps the child part needs to know that it’s OK to want to marry him and it’s OK to experience physical pleasure with him that doesn’t involve sexual touching; her sexual touching is best done by herself. And the adult part wants to feel sexually safe in an environment of mutual attraction, knowing he has made a commitment to love her, and to treat her with the respect that comes from common humanity, and to allow her the freedom to be honest about her sexual needs.
I hope that makes some sense.
> What you said makes a lot of sense, about wanting to rewrite your story. I want to think about it and mull it over in my head. Because it answers the question for me of "how could *I* knowing how dangerous those feelings are, want this?" The more I try to understand all of this, the more I don't seem to want this.
Yeah. That’s the weird part. It feels so very dangerous, and yet it can feel so appealing. I think it touches some very deep emotional conflicts about what we want and what we don’t want.
> I think I should try to ask about the touching stuff. Maybe when he gets back from his vacation. Because I've been thinking I'd like to hug him good-bye but then I'm afraid he will "notice" how unattractive I am if I get that close to him. And I'm sure that I'm talking about physical stuff but I'm equally sure I'm talking about other stuff too. Somehow I guess I think I will contaminate him.
The idea of contaminating someone by touching them is something I can relate to. I sometimes felt so very dirty that that I thought merely being in the room with my therapist would make him feel icky.
If thinking about hugging your therapist goodbye is a new thought, I really think it’s worth discussing with him. In my case I wanted to touch my therapist so desperately because the idea of his touch symbolised my acceptability. (I always think of that bible story of Jesus and the ritually unclean woman in Mark 5.) If he could touch me, perhaps he didn’t really think I was as disgusting as I imagined. I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again because I like saying it… when he shook my hand at the end of our final session it was such a relief!
>For a long time I felt so young and small that I didn't want to get close enough to gage his real size. Or have it brought back into reality. I needed him to be big enough to protect me. Now I feel like I'm so big that I would squash him. Again, has nothing to do with my real size, because I'd guess I'm 4 or 5 inches shorter than he is. (OK, OK, I am a bit wider.) Touch is fraught with peril for me. I hate to be touched. My friend who is a therapist wants me to have physical therapy so I will let go of my tension in my neck and begin to associate touch with relaxation. I have another friend who goes to holding therapy. The therapist literally holds her head and neck. She said she cries the whole time. (She experienced severe csa.)
I know what you mean about the size thing. I’ve sometimes felt tiny compared with my therapist, though he’s only about an inch taller than me, and he’s considerably slimmer!
It does sound as if some kind of touch could be therapeutic for you. I know nothing about physical therapy or holding therapy, but I imagine that touch with someone you can trust could be a very good thing.
> I love what you said about your phallic safety issue. I guess because I have boys that part of the anatomy doesn't bother me much. I'm much more hung up on my own parts and what is showing and not showing. The more I think about this, the more I'm getting clear that I'm afraid of my own ability to be seductive. I think I'm not at all, but what if I am wrong? Most women are proud of that ability -- I think it turns good men into bad people. I'll have to think about this some more. Maybe I want my therapist to want the woman in me but because I'm pretty regressed still with him, this feels really, really wrong.
I have a boy now too, and he’s still a baby. I’m not scared of his penis; it’s so tiny and cute! But adult penises are a different matter.
Yeah, the ability to be seductive can be frightening. I tend to wear low-cut blouses because I have unfeasibly large breasts and I just look matronly in clothes with high necks. But I feel very uncomfortable if I think people notice my body. I tend to think I’m so unattractive that people won’t even notice my cleavage.
When you say ‘it turns good men into bad people’ I feel so sad. I so desperately want to believe that when good men are attracted to women they’re thinking, “I’d love to please her,” instead of, “How can I make her put out?” Not all men are good men, I suppose. But there *are* good men.
I can imagine that there is a lot of conflict between wanting your therapist to want you as a woman and wanting your therapist to care for you as a little girl. I suppose it’s possible that he can do both. I mean, he can care for you as a little girl without wanting that little girl sexually, and he can find you attractive as a woman without imagining you as a little girl. It’s possible for him to see the two possibilities completely separately. Maybe your confusion comes from the csa, where adult experience is combined with a child’s identity. I think the same confusion exists in the minds of people who perpetrate abuse. Maybe the goal is to be simultaneously integrated in your identity and aware of the separation of your ego states, if that makes sense.
> Thanks Tamar, you've given me some real insights to myself. I sooo appreciate the time you are taking to hash through this with me. I hope it isn't too painful to retell these details. I'll hug you in a safe way -- ((((Tamar))))
And I appreciate your thoughtful replies. I am finding this very helpful too. Thank you for the safe hugs. Here are some for you: ((((daisy))))
Posted by Tamar on June 23, 2005, at 17:55:36
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (long) ***TRIGGERS*** » Tamar, posted by pinkeye on June 23, 2005, at 13:05:28
Hi pinkeye,
> Your post and insight was awesome. Plus I think you should also read the book Courage to Heal. I was really impressed with it as well.
I think I will try to read it. I'm a bit afraid of the triggers, but maybe it will help despite them.
> Also I would like to listen more to what you have to say which you didn't - about the counter intuitive approach.. You can maybe put *********BIG TRIGGER *********** in the subject and post ??
I just replied to daisy and put my thoughts about csa at the beginning of that post. I hope you find it somewhat useful too.
Thanks pinkeye,
Tamar
Posted by pinkeye on June 23, 2005, at 18:14:27
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (long) ***TRIGGERS*** » pinkeye, posted by Tamar on June 23, 2005, at 17:55:36
Your post to Daisy about CSA is awesome.. REally Tamar - I think you need to become a therapist for sexuality related problems.. It really comes so naturally to you. Mabye you can consider becoming an EMDR therapist specializing in sexual abuse or soemthing like that..
Definitely read Courage to Heal. IT has some answers for you about your body, and hatred against body. It is not triggery at all.. maybe little bit, but I think . You should read it.
Posted by cricket on June 24, 2005, at 12:56:44
In reply to Re: Confusing Session » cricket, posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:14:04
Hi Daisy,
I don't tell him that I want to undress him. But I guess he knows it. When I let the seductive one, she hasn't had her turn yet, talk to him she will definitely tell him.
Honestly I'm not that uncomfortable with having sexual feelings towards him. It feels sort of normal. I am uncomfortable with the childlike feelings.
I think that maybe it has to do with the circumstances of my csa. It was a stepfather, who didn't care one bit for me. He married my mother because he liked little girls (I was 4) and it was convenient to have one living with him. He told my mother that he was only marrying her because he wanted me. It was out and out violence each and every day with nothing else mixed in.
In fact, my T says that as long as I physically survived the attacks and I did, it probably wasn't anywhere near as damaging as the absolute abandonment, isolation and hatred I endured.
So to make a long story short, I guess if the csa occurred with someone towards whom a child had any kind of positive feelings, it might make it all more confusing.
Also, to be honest, I'm not very attractive so perhaps it's just easier to have sexual feelings when you know they will never be reciprocated.
Posted by Dinah on June 24, 2005, at 19:30:48
In reply to Re: Confusing Session » daisym, posted by cricket on June 22, 2005, at 8:34:18
lol. That is funny.
The only times I've heard my therapist talk to his wife he sounded a bit irritated.
But then, the switchboard had mistakenly put the call through, so he had reason I guess.
Posted by daisym on June 25, 2005, at 0:49:31
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (long) ***TRIGGERS*** » Daisym, posted by Tamar on June 23, 2005, at 17:52:08
>>>>Naturally, a little girl wants to marry her daddy. But he doesn't marry her, even though he makes her do things that are appropriate in marital relationships. He doesn't give her age-appropriate sexual pleasure (because only she can give herself age-appropriate sexual pleasure); instead he foists a frightening adult experience on her. He doesn't allow her to merge with him; instead he dominates her. He doesn't let her have an honest relationship with her mommy (because he makes her keep a secret); instead he keeps mommy for himself.
<<<<All this is true. Especially the part about the secret from mommy. The child has to then protect both parents, by holding on tightly to the secret. And there is a deep, deep secret fear that this is all her fault. So she works hard to make it up to her mommy by being as perfect as she can. But being perfect makes her attractive (an easy target)? for her dad, because if HE tells mommy, then she won't be perfect anymore. So she then tries to please daddy to keep him quiet. She believes that if she can please everyone, no one will get angry. And if this isn't complicated enough, there are sweet memories of a loving daddy who made her feel special in appropriate ways. She was his girl, and he made her feel safe and beautiful in a way her mother never did. So she goes back time and time again thinking this daddy will reappear. And since he does often enough to keep hope alive, a vicious cycle is set up. And how can the little girl help but believe that she is the one driving all of this, so she becomes afraid of her own sexual power. And there is a faint bell ringing that I can't marry someone who is already married -- daughters can't marry their fathers because they are already married. And my therapist is married -- very married -- and his wife is right next door during some of my sessions! So perhaps while I don't think I'm hyper-aware that she is there, maybe I'm more aware of this than I think
>>>>>When she has a mature body with adult sexual responses, her experience of arousal won’t be the same as a child’s. But she might still want to rewrite the story with a man who will match his sexual interest in her with an emotional commitment to her; a man who will treat her as a partner instead of as a junior; a man who will allow her to be open about her needs and who will do his best to satisfy them, instead of simply satisfying his own needs.
You used the word merge above. This strikes a cord, as well as the attempt or wish to rewrite the story with a man who will allow her to have needs and not be repulsed by them. In therapy, we've talked about merging and separating as a development task that I need to work through. I was afraid for so long to allow myself to merge with my therapist. And now that I can let myself do this, separating at the end of sessions is excruciating. It feels so empty and lonely to pull away again. Maybe the adult developmental task is to recognize my own sexual needs and be OK with having these needs. Right now I think I have no right to have these needs, or any needs for that matter. My "job" is to satisfy the other.
I think I want to have space to ask and have answered questions about sex. Truly. Like a 12 or 13 year old would. But not about the body parts, but about the emotions and the right and wrong of it. The idea that it is supposed to be mutually wanted, or consented to is totally foreign. I want to say, "is this OK?" What if I want this and not that. Does that make me weird? Or how do you negotiate a sexual request? These are things I never learned and never had any safe person to ask. So perhaps some of these feelings are an attempt to explore this side of sexual relations.
>>>>But its extra-confusing because at the same time she wants to sit on his lap while he reads to her.
Totally. Or rock together. Anything safe that is bonding. I think this is the competition of frozen age states, longing and protecting at the same time.
>>>>I imagine that having confusing feelings of transference for a therapist might involve wanting to feel sexually safe both as a child and as an adult. So perhaps the child part needs to know that it's OK to want to marry him and it’s OK to experience physical pleasure with him that doesn’t involve sexual touching; her sexual touching is best done by herself. And the adult part wants to feel sexually safe in an environment of mutual attraction, knowing he has made a commitment to love her, and to treat her with the respect that comes from common humanity, and to allow her the freedom to be honest about her sexual needs.
Perhaps this is where the physical arousal comes in. The body competing with the brain. I tell myself I can't have any needs in this area. And my body is feeling a different truth. I also think the body remembers. So when I strongly enter a younger age state, those body memories respond to anything that makes "her" (me) feel special. And the intimacy of the situation, so private, with secrets spilled out all over the ground, simply sets up this body response to a situational recreation of the past.
>>>>Yeah. That’s the weird part. It feels so very dangerous, and yet it can feel so appealing. I think it touches some very deep emotional conflicts about what we want and what we don’t want.
This is a very old conflict and I have it so many ways. I loved my dad and I didn't want to love him. I wanted to hate him. I trusted him to keep me safe and yet I also knew that I wasn't safe from him. Physically he hurt me. I didn't want that. But I wanted to snuggle close to him, to feel him. And I didn't want to tell my mom but I desperately wanted her to know. I think the conflict plays out with my husband too. I want to feel close to him, to be taken care of a little. This inevitably evolves into sex. So I have to choose having what I want and doing what I don't want to. *sigh* I bet I have a hundred more examples.
>>>>>The idea of contaminating someone by touching them is something I can relate to. I sometimes felt so very dirty that that I thought merely being in the room with my therapist would make him feel icky.
>>>>If thinking about hugging your therapist good-bye is a new thought, I really think it’s worth discussing with him. In my case I wanted to touch my therapist so desperately because the idea of his touch symbolised my acceptability. (I always think of that bible story of Jesus and the ritually unclean woman in Mark 5.) If he could touch me, perhaps he didn’t really think I was as disgusting as I imagined. I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again because I like saying it… when he shook my hand at the end of our final session it was such a relief!
I'm going to try to talk about this. I did tell him that my feelings of self-loathing were increasing again and that I had my list made of my insecurities and things I hated about myself. I also said I wasn't prepared to tell him what was on the list. It was too dangerous, with too much potential for rejection. Why would I give him ammunition against me? He said we needed to look at the list together, slowly and very gently. I want to tell him about the size thing but I'm afraid it won't make sense to him. And no way, yet, about the hug. I sort of have this idea that I will know I'm ready to leave when I can hug him without worrying.
>>>>It does sound as if some kind of touch could be therapeutic for you. I know nothing about physical therapy or holding therapy, but I imagine that touch with someone you can trust could be a very good thing.
I keep thinking about this. I don't yet know how, but I do need to find a way to practice safe touching that does not lead to anything sexual. I realize that among the reasons that touch is so hard for me is that I have a lot of confusion about what is appropriate. Is the idea to take turns? If I get touched, how much pay back do I have to do? If someone hugs me, do I owe them a hug back? Is it OK to take and not give back when touching, or when having sex? If so, how long is it OK? 5 minutes? An hour?
>>>>>>Yeah, the ability to be seductive can be frightening. I tend to wear low-cut blouses because I have unfeasibly large breasts and I just look matronly in clothes with high necks. But I feel very uncomfortable if I think people notice my body. I tend to think I’m so unattractive that people won’t even notice my cleavage.
I almost never have on open neck stuff. I wear a lot of jewelry at the throat, pins that close my blouses. I'm not small breasted either and I wish I was! I'm very careful about what shows. I wear very nice executive clothes to work and long skirts or jeans on the weekends. I think I choose my clothes so that people will notice them instead of me. And note: shoes are safe. I have small, cute feet (size 6 1/5) and I think they are my best feature. I refuse to wear flats unless they are sandals or tennies. Keep people looking down is my motto!
>>>>I can imagine that there is a lot of conflict between wanting your therapist to want you as a woman and wanting your therapist to care for you as a little girl. I suppose it’s possible that he can do both. I mean, he can care for you as a little girl without wanting that little girl sexually, and he can find you attractive as a woman without imagining you as a little girl. It’s possible for him to see the two possibilities completely separately. Maybe your confusion comes from the csa, where adult experience is combined with a child’s identity. I think the same confusion exists in the minds of people who perpetrate abuse. Maybe the goal is to be simultaneously integrated in your identity and aware of the separation of your ego states, if that makes sense.
I'm going to have to think about this a lot. I'm sure you are right, it just feels impossible to integrate any of this. I think right now I need to learn how to listen better to the arguments in my head. I still think my therapist prefers the little girl parts of me. I know this is really old stuff.
I'm getting clearer on what I'm feeling but it is obvious I have so much work to do still. I wish I could move through this faster.
Posted by Tamar on June 25, 2005, at 11:09:16
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (long) ***TRIGGERS*** » Tamar, posted by daisym on June 25, 2005, at 0:49:31
> <<<<All this is true. Especially the part about the secret from mommy. The child has to then protect both parents, by holding on tightly to the secret. And there is a deep, deep secret fear that this is all her fault. So she works hard to make it up to her mommy by being as perfect as she can. But being perfect makes her attractive (an easy target)? for her dad, because if HE tells mommy, then she won't be perfect anymore. So she then tries to please daddy to keep him quiet. She believes that if she can please everyone, no one will get angry.And, sadly, she doesn’t have that power; she can’t stop people from getting angry. And she doesn’t know that daddy has his own reasons for not telling and (in some cases) mommy has her reasons for not knowing.
> And if this isn't complicated enough, there are sweet memories of a loving daddy who made her feel special in appropriate ways. She was his girl, and he made her feel safe and beautiful in a way her mother never did. So she goes back time and time again thinking this daddy will reappear. And since he does often enough to keep hope alive, a vicious cycle is set up. And how can the little girl help but believe that she is the one driving all of this, so she becomes afraid of her own sexual power. And there is a faint bell ringing that I can't marry someone who is already married -- daughters can't marry their fathers because they are already married. And my therapist is married -- very married -- and his wife is right next door during some of my sessions! So perhaps while I don't think I'm hyper-aware that she is there, maybe I'm more aware of this than I think
Yes, and even if his wife weren’t so close as right next door, she’s always there. And you know you can’t marry him because he’s already married, but you might have learned that there are ways of being close to him despite his wife. The difficulty is knowing which are appropriate ways of being close to him, and which are not so appropriate. Well, obviously you *know*, but sometimes feelings and knowledge don’t go together. And the idea of wanting him sexually is particularly dangerous because it’s hard to imagine that he can accept your sexual desire for him without acting on it. Maybe it’s hard to imagine him loving you in a way that accepts your feelings of desire (both child feelings and adult feelings) without rejecting you. Maybe it’s hard to imagine him feeling something like, “I love her very much and she’s beautiful, but I won’t be sexually intimate with her because it would hurt her and it would be wrong.”
> You used the word merge above. This strikes a cord, as well as the attempt or wish to rewrite the story with a man who will allow her to have needs and not be repulsed by them. In therapy, we've talked about merging and separating as a development task that I need to work through. I was afraid for so long to allow myself to merge with my therapist. And now that I can let myself do this, separating at the end of sessions is excruciating. It feels so empty and lonely to pull away again. Maybe the adult developmental task is to recognize my own sexual needs and be OK with having these needs. Right now I think I have no right to have these needs, or any needs for that matter. My "job" is to satisfy the other.
Yes, finding a safe way to merge is wonderful and it’s so hard to separate again. I felt that way in therapy too. I think it’s hard because it’s difficult to believe that the separation is temporary and the merging will be possible again in a few days. Each time we separate it feels like forever. And of course the merging is so comforting that we want to stay merged. It can be hard to imagine how we can be fully ourselves without being merged.
And I know what you mean about thinking you don’t have the right to have these needs, and that your job is to provide satisfaction. I’m still struggling with that too. It’s hard even to recognise that needs are there.
> I think I want to have space to ask and have answered questions about sex. Truly. Like a 12 or 13 year old would. But not about the body parts, but about the emotions and the right and wrong of it. The idea that it is supposed to be mutually wanted, or consented to is totally foreign. I want to say, "is this OK?" What if I want this and not that. Does that make me weird? Or how do you negotiate a sexual request? These are things I never learned and never had any safe person to ask. So perhaps some of these feelings are an attempt to explore this side of sexual relations.
I know! When I was pubescent I was only told about body parts; no one mentioned the feelings. I had no idea how the feelings were connected to my body. As far as wanting one thing and not another goes, I don’t think there’s *anything* that’s actually weird. Different people like different things; the important thing is to know which things you like. I think first a person needs to discover how she likes to be touched, and then she needs to consider how she likes to touch another person.
The weird thing about negotiating a sexual request is that so many people don’t do it verbally. So many people seem to make love without much speaking, hoping their partner will guess from the occasional ‘oh yes’ whether it’s working. Sometimes people ask, “Do you like this?” But it’s hard to say, “No, actually, I’d rather you did that!” I didn’t even realise it until I had a partner who was very chatty and talked all through sex. It was fantastic! It was just so easy to say, “Left a bit,” or whatever.
I was reading some stuff recently about how couples behave as they’re getting together. Most of it is non-verbal. It starts with increasing the length of eye contact. There’s a point at which eye contact is broken if there’s no chemistry; if eye contact is held beyond that, both parties may believe there’s a chance of intimacy. Even that first kiss is usually negotiated in a non-verbal way: the man leans in a little, and moves away. Soon afterwards, he does it again. If the woman reciprocates by moving her head towards him when he leans in, then he gets non-verbal ‘go ahead’ cues, and they keep moving together and away, getting a little closer each time, until eventually they’re close enough to kiss. If the woman doesn’t move towards the man when he moves towards her, the man is supposed to understand that she’s not receptive to a kiss and he should stop moving towards her. Problems arise when one of the parties hasn’t learned to read the signals.
And those non-verbal signals are also used for getting more intimate. Touching starts in places that are fairly neutral – arms, shoulders etc – and if reciprocated, the touching gets more intimate. Of course, the difficulty with depending on non-verbal signals to get sexually intimate is that some people haven’t leaned how to read the signals properly, or they ignore the don’t-go-there signals because they don’t want to believe the other person doesn’t want them. I think it’s particularly confusing for people who have been sexually abused or assaulted because they may give out ‘go ahead’ signals without intending to, or they might give out ‘don’t-go-there’ signals even when they want intimacy because they have emotional conflicts about sexual intimacy.
> >>>>But it’s extra-confusing because at the same time she wants to sit on his lap while he reads to her.
>
> Totally. Or rock together. Anything safe that is bonding. I think this is the competition of frozen age states, longing and protecting at the same time.Yes. And as an adult that’s confusing because those safe bonding activities often involve a lot of the non-verbal cues that lead to the expectation of sexual activity.
> Perhaps this is where the physical arousal comes in. The body competing with the brain. I tell myself I can't have any needs in this area. And my body is feeling a different truth. I also think the body remembers. So when I strongly enter a younger age state, those body memories respond to anything that makes "her" (me) feel special. And the intimacy of the situation, so private, with secrets spilled out all over the ground, simply sets up this body response to a situational recreation of the past.
Ah, I’m familiar with the battle between my body and my mind. I agree that the body remembers things. And I think there can be a lot of confusion when an adult body remembers things that belong to a child body. It also makes sense that the intimacy, privacy and secrecy of therapy would evoke a physical reaction or memory, which can (confusingly) be expressed in adult terms.
> This is a very old conflict and I have it so many ways. I loved my dad and I didn't want to love him. I wanted to hate him. I trusted him to keep me safe and yet I also knew that I wasn't safe from him. Physically he hurt me. I didn't want that. But I wanted to snuggle close to him, to feel him. And I didn't want to tell my mom but I desperately wanted her to know. I think the conflict plays out with my husband too. I want to feel close to him, to be taken care of a little. This inevitably evolves into sex. So I have to choose having what I want and doing what I don't want to. *sigh* I bet I have a hundred more examples.
It’s so unfortunate that physical comfort with a partner is often seen as a prelude to sex. It’s hard to know how to deal with it if your partner doesn’t know about the abuse. Partners who know can be sympathetic because they can learn about the difficulties. But a partner who doesn’t know might feel rejected if he doesn’t understand the reason you don’t want sex.
> I'm going to try to talk about this. I did tell him that my feelings of self-loathing were increasing again and that I had my list made of my insecurities and things I hated about myself. I also said I wasn't prepared to tell him what was on the list. It was too dangerous, with too much potential for rejection. Why would I give him ammunition against me? He said we needed to look at the list together, slowly and very gently. I want to tell him about the size thing but I'm afraid it won't make sense to him.
I imagine the size thing is pretty common in all sorts of situations. I expect he will have heard it before.
I suppose you might well see your feelings as ammunition if you think he might reject you. I think good therapists somehow manage to walk a very fine line where they can accept our feelings without acting in response to them, and they can explore the feelings together with us without rejecting us. I think it’s an amazing skill. Part of it, I think, is about acknowledging that it’s OK to have these feelings; another part is about providing a safe environment to understand the feelings.
One of the biggest questions for me was: how could my therapist possibly respond to my feelings about him without rejecting me? How could he refuse to touch me without making me feel completely ugly, depraved and worthless? But I was amazed when I eventually talked about feelings of desire. I never mentioned that I desired *him* so of course he would never have guessed :) But he asked questions in such I way that I never felt disgusting or rejected. I think if I’d come right out and said, “Actually, although I know it’s unethical and impossible, I want to tear off your clothes right now and give you every pleasure you can imagine and then a few you haven’t thought of,” he would have reacted with no more surprise than if I’d said, “Actually, I’d like an ice cream right now.” Well of course I want ice cream; why wouldn’t I? Ice cream is delicious and comforting. He doesn’t have any ice cream to give me, but there are other places I can get it. It’s just a matter of finding the ice cream shop. But we can talk about the flavours I’d choose.
> And no way, yet, about the hug. I sort of have this idea that I will know I'm ready to leave when I can hug him without worrying.
That makes sense.
> I keep thinking about this. I don't yet know how, but I do need to find a way to practice safe touching that does not lead to anything sexual. I realize that among the reasons that touch is so hard for me is that I have a lot of confusion about what is appropriate. Is the idea to take turns? If I get touched, how much pay back do I have to do? If someone hugs me, do I owe them a hug back? Is it OK to take and not give back when touching, or when having sex? If so, how long is it OK? 5 minutes? An hour?
Yes, these are difficult questions. In an ideal world (or a good relationship) people don’t keep score. There’s no need to keep track of the number or duration of the hugs. In a good relationship hugs are given and received according to want and need. And of course they’re usually comforting to both people. As for sex, I think it should be OK to take and not give back, for as long as you want it. Ideally, two people having sex want both to experience pleasure and to give pleasure. And giving pleasure is also part of experiencing pleasure. My partner is willing to focus entirely on me for hours if I want him too. He enjoys what he’s doing. Sometimes he wants me to spend a lot of time doing things for him, and I enjoy doing it so I’m not watching the clock. Sometimes I particularly want to focus on him, even if he hasn’t indicated a desire for it, just because I like it. It just depends on what we’re in the mood for. But this is a recent thing for me; until recently I couldn’t stand to be touched so sex was rather one-way, with me focusing on him. He enjoyed it, but at the same time he found it difficult because he wanted to give me pleasure too.
> I almost never have on open neck stuff. I wear a lot of jewelry at the throat, pins that close my blouses. I'm not small breasted either and I wish I was! I'm very careful about what shows. I wear very nice executive clothes to work and long skirts or jeans on the weekends. I think I choose my clothes so that people will notice them instead of me. And note: shoes are safe. I have small, cute feet (size 6 1/5) and I think they are my best feature. I refuse to wear flats unless they are sandals or tennies. Keep people looking down is my motto!
Yes! Shoes *are* safe! And I like your idea of keeping people looking down!
> I'm going to have to think about this a lot. I'm sure you are right, it just feels impossible to integrate any of this. I think right now I need to learn how to listen better to the arguments in my head. I still think my therapist prefers the little girl parts of me. I know this is really old stuff.
I think the integrating might be ultimately useful, but first it’s important to discover what might need integrating. It’s interesting that you think your therapist prefers the little girl parts. Is that because he’s always prepared to hear them? Do you think he listens to them at the expense of your adult parts?
> I'm getting clearer on what I'm feeling but it is obvious I have so much work to do still. I wish I could move through this faster.
I don’t think there’s much advantage to going faster. I think it’s more important to do it effectively. I tend to think of it like learning to play the piano. I could learn to play pieces of music quickly, but I learned better if I played them very slowly many times. And in almost every piece of music there was a four bar passage that was extremely challenging. I had to keep working very slowly on those four bars, over and over until they sounded just as good as the rest of the piece. If I didn’t play the piece for a few months and came back to it I needed to give those four bars a little extra work. And if I never dealt with those four bars slowly they never sounded as good as the rest of the piece. I’ll never be good enough to be a professional pianist, but with enough work I can play well enough to enjoy it immensely.
It seems to me that therapy just takes as long as it takes. Sometimes we have to come back to things we think we’ve dealt with. It’s hard work, and sometimes it feels just too difficult. But every little bit of work we do is a step towards freedom.
Posted by All Done on June 26, 2005, at 2:22:46
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (maybe triggers?) » All Done, posted by daisym on June 23, 2005, at 0:05:55
> Thank you for sharing so much. I've said it before but parenting is so complicated. My therapist tells me that it is important to let myself acknowledge the love I did get from my dad, especially when I was really young. Girls do need their daddies, but they need their daddies to have strong boundaries, kind of like good therapists!
>
> What strikes me is your wanting to be wanted. I worked hard to be invisible but there is this longing now to be seen -- really seen---and wanted anyway. I think that might be one of the primary reasons therapy is so important to me. I'm letting someone see me, the real me, and so far he hasn't sent me away or asked me to hide anything.I spent the better part of my childhood trying to be invisible. I would literally hide behind books at school and I never talked to anyone unless it was related to my schoolwork. When I got to therapy, I think I brought a lot of that with me and I hid behind lots of issues that, while they were important in their own way, weren't directly about me. Once I got the courage to start opening up, I found that my T is accepting and non-judgemental. I have to say it's a liberating experience. I'm not exactly sure, though, how I'm going to learn that while someone can accept me as I am, they may also want me as I am. I suppose that's his job.
> I asked Tamar, but I'll ask you too...how are you able to distinguish your feelings as "purely" sexual and not love?
Well, first off, logic rules with me sometimes. I guess I think something along the lines of, "I may have some sexual feelings toward him, but it would be impossible for those feelings to signify love. He's my therapist and I don't know anything about the non-therapist him."
But also, and maybe more importantly, I don't think I equate any part of sex with love. I don't know why and I probably have to think about this some more. Maybe the thoughts feel okay to me because I understand how intimacy and sex are related and I believe intimacy in therapy is okay and important. I'm not sure if I'm making any sense.
> And what did your therapist say when you whined at him about being a cliche? I bet he said you are uniquely you...and for that I'm grateful.
For the life of me I don't remember what he said, but you are very, very sweet in your speculations. Thank you :).
This is the end of the thread.
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