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Re: hanging in there Lorraine

Posted by shelliR on September 27, 2001, at 20:20:46

In reply to Re: hanging in there shelliR, posted by Lorraine on September 26, 2001, at 10:26:56

> Hi Shelli:

> > My therapist and I try to work on things as basic as organization, both in how I live and in how I work.
> Oh, that wouldn't work for me because I have read about 30 books on organization. I know the principles well enough to teach, but not follow, them. Or I follow them half way (I do have the folders):-) I'm trying to get some structure into my life (i know that this is not your issue--so how quickly I learn?) So one of the things that I want to have is a day where I close projects b/c all i want to do is open them--it's my nature.

Well the things that we've worked on have more to do with organizing my life between work and other. I often feel like I have no other because I am always running to catch up on work. One of the interesting things I discovered is that I have more control over my focus or lack of focus than I had thought. I spent time trying to figure out how I actually spend a whole day only getting doing four simple things. I am more aware now that I let myself drift off in thought, because it is more fun to "free-think" than to stay focused. But if I focus, then I have time to do other things, *guilt-free*. I'll go upstairs to get a ruler, for example, then I'll see the computer, and decided to check messages, then maybe look at PB, etc. So I am working, I suppose, on organization in terms of self-control now, rather than an amorphous "don't know where my time went." I can, sometimes at least, catch myself go off track in thought, and make a conscious decision to come back (even when I don't want to). And I am trying much harder to stick to a work plan each day.
> We have dinner parties occassionally--which means that I have to clean up from time to time. Once a friend who had been here for dinner when things were "neat" came to the house and looked at my office and said "is that what the inside of your mind looks like?" It gave me pause.

I wouldn't know how to take that either. So I suppose I'd end up deciding it was a compliment. < g >
Re oxy:
> I mean it wants to own you by making you ever more dependent. I'm having fun by assuming that the oxy has a will of it's own:-)

Umm, dependent. Well I actually had a productive 10 minutes with my pdoc today. I found out by accident last night that I don't wake up depressed if I add a third dose of oxy. (Sort of what everyone's been telling me, and I felt--rebound depression.) I put out my morning pills and mistakingly took them with my hs meds! I told him and he said yes, he realized that even for depression (along with other types of pain), I should be taking it three times a day. I said, thanks a lot (sarcasticly), I had been telling him this for a while. He admited that he was fairly new to the use of oxy for depression and he had been working with a pain specialist. That made me feel very good. (And sort of like a guinea pig). But definitely more good than pig, because I like the combination of a psychopharmacologist and a pain specialist. And as far as habituation, "they" think that sort of like pain, when I get to the right dose of oxy, I'll settle in and not need to go up. And I'm willing to take that chance.

So back to dependent: I do think that this pdoc had always thought that oxy would be a major part of my cocktail, along with an anti-depressant and a stimulent. It was never in the game plan to use oxy temporarily. At least for him it wasn't. I was the one who was thinking that the oxy would be a smaller part, or that the oxy was just there to get me through until another combo worked. But I also knew that I didn't have a lot of choices left--I had pretty much run out of options when I tried selegiline. I guess I was thinking that selegiline would take on the bigger role, but when that and parnate fell out, I wasn't left with a lot of choices, so that's why I decided to go back on nardil. At least to have some stabilization for the oxy. And wellbutrin has turned out to be the stimulent, instead of a "real" stimulent. One other good thing is that since this other doctor is in the picture, it doesn't leave me totally and fully dependent on working with my current pdoc, if I decide at some point I don't want to.

So if my dose is stablilized, it's really not different to me than using any other drug, and probably a lot better in terms of side effects than most.

> > I think that's all in the US.
> Oh no, that is scarey b/c the Nardil is giving me no mood support, it is making my hyperventilation worse (hence the Neurontin); it is making me sedated. I drop off a cliff in terms of energy about 8 o'clock (so I'm trying to adjust my times). I'm increasing my dose to 45 mg today. I'll see my pdoc next week and we'll see what we think. I'm not real positive. My best response so far was the (don't laugh) Moclobemide, but the anxiety and loss of sleep made me hyperventilate and wake up unrefreshed. Maybe now I could temper that with what? Ambien for sleep. Anxiety, I don't know. Marplan is supposed to be hard to get (limited manufacture).

Are you sure it's the nardil that is making you hyperventilate. That would mean it was activating and sedating. Were you on any meds during which time hyperventilation was not an issue? I am assuming that hyperventilating is overbreathing because of anxiety? When I hyperventitate, or get very spacy, I take valium. But with valium, you also do need to take something stimulating or it will knock you out.

Lorraine, I really don't know what to say. I can only say for me that it took a full five weeks of 45mg, and it changed my life. You haven't even done one week at 45mg. I also have to say that nardil alone wasn't enough. I also used a benzo throughout my whole adult life, sometimes more, sometimes none. It allowed me more or less to lead a normal life. And if I could have tolerated a stimulent, I would have been on that also.

I wish you could be easier on yourself for the trials. Let yourself take an early afternoon (before the kids come home) nap. Sometimes just a half hour will do it. Then if the nardil works, you will find the right stimulent, and fatigue will be less of a factor. I don't think I can convince you to take a benzo for hyperventilation and anxiety, if you are really against it.

It's strange. You are coming to terms with having a disease, and I try to ignore my disease as much as possible by medicating it in any way possible, not to play with drugs, just to feel my "disease" as little as possible. When I first started dance class I couldn't do it unless I took valium. After a while, I got a dance scholarship and wasn't needing the valium. So I used it to get by until I could get by on my own. And I never felt guilty; I always felt so grateful that it was there to take.

But going back to the nardil, I wish I could say, if you hang in there it will work. I believe that it has an excellent chance of working, based on your diagnosis, and based on the number of people who hav ehad success with it. When I tried it, there wasn't a lot of everything else, so after determining that I could not take tricylics, it was my first AD. And the rap was that it was supposed to work in three weeks. So I literally read the page in a book that said it may take up to six weeks for it to work every single day, at least once. It was my bible. (Nathan Klein, "From Sad to Glad", little paperback, I'm sure out of print).
No one, in or out of the hospital at that time even suggested MAOIs to me, and by absolute luck, I turned on PBS at my parents house, right after getting out of the hospital at age 24 and he was being interviewed.

How long did it take for the Moclobemide to kick in? Also what was your experience with effexor? Is that an AD you would consider going back to?

> Shelli, have you seriously tried drugs?
> > No, only the vicodin and now the oxy.
> > The life of an addict is not attractive or pleasant. Reality peeks in.
> > Okay, the plan is : get high, go to France, have fun and spend all my money; when I become poor and an addict, *then* kill myself. But why not use money and drugs in excess first.
> > However. It's only a plan if I decide to kill myself, and that, as we have discussed, is not an option. So it's more like a perverse fantasy.
> > Or black humor.
> I like black humor. When I was a very young I experimented with enough drugs to know that I do not want anything to do with that way of life.
I also played a little with drugs in college. I tripped twice and have never been sorry, although I would never take the risk again. I was really talking about being in France, stoned with a form of codeine. Nothing heavier. Letting myself be high because I wouldn't have work to do, and not caring if I became addicted or habituated, and because the French Countryside is so beautiful.

Re your son:
> He said another thing that was interesting to me. He said that we all have two brains--a mature brain and an immature or primitive brain. Austin's mature side is very highly
developed (this is true--he is remarkably insightful and bright). His immature side though is very immature--like dealing with a two year old. When Austin is in the immature or primitive mode, reasoning with him is not effective (this is certainly true). Well, perhaps it is all a way of looking at things, but an interesting way.

That is very much how I have seen myself. I haven't divided it into two brains, but definitely two parts of myself, and that's the way my therapists have seen me also. One very very young emotionally, the unmothered part for me, extremely vulnerable and aching and not at all strong. The part that has hurt myself, and unravels almost totally. And the very adult, very perceptive even as a young child, very smart in terms of verbalization and understanding, and always with an incredible amount of integrity. I think to some extent everyone has both mature and immature parts, but for some, like your son, it is the great difference that makes it so noticable. Sort of like having a huge scatter in an IQ test. I had a great scatter in living.

I'm so sorry that you are having a hard time, and are becoming scared. I wish I could help. I have finally had two good days in a row, but as you know, I very understand very well how hard it is to go through the bad times, not knowing.





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