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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Omega Woman on January 4, 2004, at 5:34:49
I come from a particularly homophobic macho part of the world. (Scotland) In fact its unnatrually so. Usual macho culture evolves in industrial towns, but in Scotland its everywhere in the culture, which seems to have descended from tribes which stayed in a constant state of battle, with each other.
What I noticed growing up here was that if you didnt buy into the prevailing behavioural tendencies and suffered from mental illnes. The nervous dehibilition and hypersensitivy of anxiety through depression would be enough over time for a person to be considered "Gay".
Gay for not being strong and insensitive, or just about any behaviour which falls into that category.
I've also noticed that some people I know with the above problem and trying to find identity in scotland, Cant get a woman due to the fact the woman compete to be tough bitches, and dont respect men with weaknesses. (not that many do mind you). Anyway its even more worrying to see some of these people considering being gay, The social pressure has done its stuff and their isolation the rest.
Nearly all mental illnesses reduce self esteem and make one very highly strung, in an almost female type manner.
If this illness / pressure / adoption model exists to drive normal people to think they are less than male then this makes me wonder how many people here became gay after getting a mental illness ?
Posted by fallsfall on January 4, 2004, at 10:38:19
In reply to Mentall illness and Homesexuality., posted by Omega Woman on January 4, 2004, at 5:34:49
A lack of "masculine strength" does not equate to prefering a relationship and sex with another man. I agree that many people think that "softer" (I say that in a good way - compassionate, feeling etc.) men must be gay. I agree that gay men tend to be "softer", but that doesn't mean that "softer" men must be gay.
Posted by Omega Woman on January 4, 2004, at 11:42:57
In reply to Re: Mentall illness and Homesexuality. » Omega Woman, posted by fallsfall on January 4, 2004, at 10:38:19
I suppose I wasnt clear...What i was trying to describe that in some tough cultures, men blighted with mental illness from their teens, were not until recently understood, and usually seen as deficient, or weak and so the idea is re-enforced they are not manly and too oversensitive.
Over a period of time this creates someone with no self image of themselves as what it is to be male, and this makes them unattractive to women. The act of sex itself raised testosterone levels, so along with the depression testosterone is'nt getting a look in.
Also theres another way in which depression reduces testosterone levels socially.
By being seen as a liablity and so left out of competition within male situations the depressed young male won't get an everyday level of stimulation required to produce testosterone on a regular basis.
Depression within this context is going to result in fewer opportunites for testosterone boosting activities. Eventually the behaviour of the person is commented on within Scottish Culture as "wimpish" or "Gay".
The Person takes their reference from this, and by already feeling beaten and not up to scratch with other men, takes on a subserviant role. He becomes the one who is eager to please. All that is needed now is for an experienced Gay man to come along finish the job.
I think i've seen this happen many times. I dont believe all homosexuals really are gay in sense of being the type who develop Female brain connections in the Anterior Comissure.
Posted by Omega Woman on January 4, 2004, at 12:18:02
In reply to How depression lowers testosterone in 3 ways » fallsfall, posted by Omega Woman on January 4, 2004, at 11:42:57
The reason i'm going on about this subject is because I felt this pressure happen later on, well past age 23, by which time I had already been sexually active and sure of my desire for women. And sure that I have never had any for men.
However the experience of depression since that age meant moving to a different group within Scotland. Once again the Macho culture existed. With the loss in sex drive through depression once again the social pressure started and the "gay" accusations, especially being the creative type anyway. Since being percieved as gay would have elevated my status within the creative community, I was quite happy to entertain the idea. A couple of years of being a flamboyant man in Bohemia came to a head when I had a gay man naked with me, as he sat there , I just felt nothing at all, much like being in a mens shower.
I though that Perhaps if I had'nt been depressed I might have had sex with him just for the sake of it, but then if I was'nt depressed I would'nt have gone through all the homophobic accusations tht led me to being there with the guy asking myself these questions and having fun with gay identity.
I just feel lucky that i've been on the inside of whats going on in Scotland, and to get a personal insight into what people do. I've seen what its done to others. I saw this happen to a friend of mine. He too started exploring homosexuality after depression and Scottish culture.
It makes men think they are gay when they are not.
The reason is just that scots dont like any grey area within sexuality, your either behaving like a man or the questions get asked and then you get fitted up like a female, but its not spoken about properly. Its within those silences that the seeds of doubt grow.
Just dont ask me why I choose to call myself "Omega Woman" ?
Posted by deirdrehbrt on January 4, 2004, at 14:27:38
In reply to Personal admissions, posted by Omega Woman on January 4, 2004, at 12:18:02
You bring up some points that probably have alot of people wondering about themselves. You also bring to the surface the age-old debate of whether homosexuality is intrinsic or extrinsic. Is it cause or is it nature?
I don't know how much of my make-up is derived from my Scottish background, but the 'men' in my family tended to be stronger, confrontational, and somewhat insensitive.
I am nothing like my brothers. I may have been born male, but I NEVER saw myself as such. I spent most of my time as a child visiting my grandmother, watching TV, playing cribbage, and eating cookies and drinking milk. I spent a great deal of time with the old woman across the street, in her screen-house, or in her music room. I would play guitar and She would play piano. Come to think of it, I knew all of the older women in my neighborhood, and practically none of the men.
In School, I gained the honor of the titles: Gay, Fag, She-male, Queer, Sissy, and whatever-else anyone could come up with. I knew the truth: I wasn't gay, I was a girl. I guess that what it comes down to is this: others can place a monicker, but we'll still know the truth. Someone may be told that they like men or women, but they will know in the relationship that something is either right or wrong. There have been plenty of 'softer' men and and 'harder' women who are revered by most:
Joan of Arc,
Isaac Stern,
Margaret Thatcher,
Fred Rogers.
There are many if you look.Perhaps what is needed more than anything else is some support for people who are saddled with a name or title that they don't deserve. Maybe the intolerance will dissipate (though slowly at first) as people can know that they are allowed to be themselves without the spectre of some sort of 'gay patrol' lurking about.
I guess that the only advice I can give is this: Know who you are, and be it. Sometimes it will hurt, sometimes you want to scream, sometimes you want to pull your hair out and cry, but in the end, you are happiest when you know yourself and honor that truth.
It wasn't long ago in the US that people were placed in mental hospitals for being transgendered or gay. Fortunately that has mostly changed. Some parents still place their suspected gay children in special programs to 'cure' them, but fortunately that is the exception these days.
My family still tries to ignore who I really am, and opt for what they 'know'. I don't know how long this will continue, or if it will ever end, but I've decided that it doesn't matter anymore. I've been hurt enough, and I'm not going to let them rule my life.
I wish you good fortune and a pleasant future.
Dee.
Posted by zeugma on January 4, 2004, at 14:41:38
In reply to Personal admissions, posted by Omega Woman on January 4, 2004, at 12:18:02
I would say these attitudes are not exclusive to Scotland. Growing up I was constantly taunted as being 'gay,' even before I knew what the term meant. A lot of violence is directed towards those who are perceived as gay, regardless of actual orientations. I decided early on that since everyone perceived me as gay, I should forget about ever having a normal sex life (since I knew I wasn't gay, but the only people who seemed to take a sexual interest in me were males who thought I shared their orientation). Avoidant personality disorder has also warped my self-perceptions to the point where contemplating a relationship with anyone would make me so violently anxious that it's better for my mental health not to bother. Of course, this warps my self-perceptions farther...
There's a vicious feedback mechanism between feeling like you fail to meet the social/functional criteria for 'male,' and the failures that result from this feeling causing one to either avoid these relationships entirely, or trying and failing because of insecurities resulting from not feeling 'normal.'
A final note: I have been in therapy since early adolescence, and therapists , who share the perceptual biases of the population at large, were convinced that my 'problem' was that I was really gay and simply would not admit it. So they fixated on this 'problem' and completely ignored the 'real' problems, which now, much later in life, I am trying to deal with.
Posted by Omega Woman on January 5, 2004, at 2:01:21
In reply to Re: Personal admissions, posted by deirdrehbrt on January 4, 2004, at 14:27:38
This forum never ceases to amaze me, no matter the subject somebody knows what you're talking about. I wonder how many people come through here daily..
Yes that was interesting. exactly what I was thinking about....I think what drove you to be with females may have been a component in your make up that was'nt being satisfied. It wasnt enough to make you Gay but it was enough to create a dissatisfaction with the "extremes" of Scottish Culture.
Within this context there isnt many options, you either take up the challenge and become a full on confronter like everyone else or you have to opt out and get labelled.
I'm facing up to these things about Scotland now later in life. I'm looking at how people are just giving into the force of the needs of the culture and become slaves to it. It does'nt seem right, what good does it do in this day and age to be so extreme ? Peoples lives are getting swallowed up by these forces of cultural convergance and they dont seem healthier for it. I've never seen more messed up and drug abusing people as I have in Central Scotland.
Worse the Memetic itself creates a do or die pride which ensures that the strong absolutely rule the social airwaves. Anybody who opts out quitely gets called a "Fag" and anyone who has something to say about it gets called a "nutter".
This makes me think there is little hope here for Balance in living. I took a trip out of Scotland recently and just breathed normality..It was'nt the English that seemed normal though, they seem just as bad, it was the immigrants and minorities flooding the streets of london.
I would just sit in the streets and think "ahhh mentally balanced people, how refreshing...."
Posted by Omega Woman on January 5, 2004, at 2:14:50
In reply to Re: Personal admissions, posted by zeugma on January 4, 2004, at 14:41:38
There are many components of behaviour that account for Non male attributes, and none of them are related to having too much Estrogen or the Female Neurology.
1. Shyness..This is a Neurodevelopmental disorder.
2. Depression...Reduces interaction and testosterone,
3. Right brain dominant...makes a person muddy, generous, trusting and overtly easy going.
4. Sensory oversensitivity....This can be caused by numerous biological problems from infections to poor Thalamic relay.
5. Male absence...No positive male influence and interest to the child creates identification with female traits..
thats just what I figured out recently, how many others are they ? Is eastern culture Homophobic or mediterranean ? Would'nt many italian men be considered gay for being so nice and emotional if they existed in Texas or Scotland or Germany ?
I think Homophobia is a problem which is stupid and out of control. Someone made a good comment recently that Homophobia is self defeating. If it did'nt exist people would'nt get married to escape the pressure and Gay genes would'nt multiply through the population.
Posted by Omega Woman on January 6, 2004, at 2:46:33
In reply to Re: Personal admissions, posted by zeugma on January 4, 2004, at 14:41:38
I had forgotten to say how I think you should change your living context. I'm sure you have considered this, but its not easy to move and a person forgets it might be the best thing to do.
I dont know where you live, but i've noticed that Globally there are Macho "hotspots". This can be for many, many reasons...usually cultural and economic but also Genetic within the population.
Its hard for someone growing up within their context to percieve they might be developing within a context of extremity, after all people dont generally discuss such things. Life has too many other pressures. These hotspots probably land many normal people with gender identity and relationship issues. Where I live the women become as insanely hard skinned as the men, and they make the men worse by manipulating them to fight for them. They copy their mothers. It seems like nobody stands a chance to be be balanced.
Anyway the point to take is that if you have issues with relationships from all this, dont think there is'nt a remedy. Move to somewhere opposite where the men in the population seem almost gay. Somewhere with Afro-carribean, indian or italians. you'll find the women just are as far gone as women can be, and will soon warm you up, even Gay men will find them hard to resist.
Posted by jay on January 6, 2004, at 3:41:39
In reply to 5 things that make a person appear feminine. » zeugma, posted by Omega Woman on January 5, 2004, at 2:14:50
>
>
> There are many components of behaviour that account for Non male attributes, and none of them are related to having too much Estrogen or the Female Neurology.
>
> 1. Shyness..This is a Neurodevelopmental disorder.
>
> 2. Depression...Reduces interaction and testosterone,
>
> 3. Right brain dominant...makes a person muddy, generous, trusting and overtly easy going.
>
> 4. Sensory oversensitivity....This can be caused by numerous biological problems from infections to poor Thalamic relay.
>
> 5. Male absence...No positive male influence and interest to the child creates identification with female traits..
>
> thats just what I figured out recently, how many others are they ? Is eastern culture Homophobic or mediterranean ? Would'nt many italian men be considered gay for being so nice and emotional if they existed in Texas or Scotland or Germany ?
>
> I think Homophobia is a problem which is stupid >and out of control. Someone made a good comment >recently that Homophobia is self defeating. If >it did'nt exist people would'nt get married to >escape the pressure and Gay genes would'nt >multiply through the population.
Hi...well, I'll give you some of my thoughts as a straight male. (Again..terminology I don't like using.)
Some of the recent research indicates that we all live in a "sexuality spectrum". Some people are just a little this, a little that. Many "straight" males won't admit to that, but much of that is likely internalized self-shame based on society's ideal of the whole "what should be male/female" think, and not veer from that.
That seems also why being bi-sexual is even more of a "social taboo". You don't easily fit into any of the neat little pockets society has drawn up and labels you. The sad part of all of this is the incredible amount of mental illness among the homo/bi-sexual community. I'd feel VERY down and majorly depressed if so many in society thought I was a "freak", or that I "will go to Hell" because I have "sinned".
Our thinking in N. America has gone to the "don't ask/don't tell" way, and is just as horrid because it still carries the myth that homo/bi-sexuality is "bad".Anyhow..just my .02 cents..
Jay
Posted by Omega Woman on January 6, 2004, at 6:20:50
In reply to Re: 5 things that make a person appear feminine. » Omega Woman, posted by jay on January 6, 2004, at 3:41:39
any links or search terms to that research you mentioned ?...
You say theres an incredible of Mental illness within gay communities, i'd like a study to see what came first.
In Scotland mentally ill or sensitive people are seen as substandard males. If you get an attitude about it, you are crazy, if you don't you're "gay"
Posted by jay on January 6, 2004, at 12:45:52
In reply to Re: 5 things that make a person appear feminine., posted by Omega Woman on January 6, 2004, at 6:20:50
Read Andrew Solomon's (sp?) "Noonday Demon" . In it, he lists tons of references, not just his own.
Jay
Posted by zeugma on January 6, 2004, at 18:57:21
In reply to 5 things that make a person appear feminine. » zeugma, posted by Omega Woman on January 5, 2004, at 2:14:50
>
>
> There are many components of behaviour that account for Non male attributes, and none of them are related to having too much Estrogen or the Female Neurology.
>
> 1. Shyness..This is a Neurodevelopmental disorder.
Shyness to an extreme= avoidant personality disorder.
>
> 2. Depression...Reduces interaction and testosterone,Chronic depression since age ten, maybe, with all the limitation of interaction that caused during my formative years.
>
> 3. Right brain dominant...makes a person muddy, generous, trusting and overtly easy going.In my case... I have serious right hemisphere issues, severe inattentive ADD which is thought to be linked to RH dysfunction, Non Verbal Learning Disorder which makes for poor spatial processing, a tenuous feeling of linkage to my own body, 'muddy' for sure, not all that trusting or easy going because of constant (and evident) anxiety...
>
> 4. Sensory oversensitivity....This can be caused by numerous biological problems from infections to poor Thalamic relay.
>
Yes, I get overstimulated easily, dislike crowds, noise, even close personal contact because it feels too threatening. Klonopin's helped a little with this constant feeling of being overstimulated but i'm not 'normal' yet.
> 5. Male absence...No positive male influence and interest to the child creates identification with female traits..
> Yes, because there are so many genetic components, i did not see my father as being any more 'male' than I am, causing me to hate him all the more because I sensed so much weakness in myself. My mother seemed stronger so i gravitated to her, which only made matters worse from the point of view of establishing a viable male identity.
> thats just what I figured out recently, how many others are they ? Is eastern culture Homophobic or mediterranean ? Would'nt many italian men be considered gay for being so nice and emotional if they existed in Texas or Scotland or Germany ?
>When younger I wanted to be gay because then I would have felt less internal disharmony and feeling of not living up to public perceptions of maleness.
> I think Homophobia is a problem which is stupid and out of control. Someone made a good comment recently that Homophobia is self defeating. If it did'nt exist people would'nt get married to escape the pressure and Gay genes would'nt multiply through the population.
Well, location may be part of it but I feel so much defectiveness in myself that there is little desire to let anyone else see it, as would happen in an intimate relationship. I don't want to establish a relationship with a girl when I feel so much weakness and self-disgust. I'm trying to slowly change myself so I feel less of this negativity but I have a long way to go.
Posted by Omega Woman on January 7, 2004, at 14:18:31
In reply to Re: 5 things that make a person appear feminine. » Omega Woman, posted by zeugma on January 6, 2004, at 18:57:21
When I was younger, my mother was'nt so well of so I used to try and create what I wanted by finding discarded goods and trying to fix them.
That has been a great skill for getting myself slowly well, fitter and stronger. I don't know about yourself, but I imagine if I was brought up in one of those families who threw out the stuff I fixed and were lucky enough to live well without really trying. Well what attitude would people in such a context take to defective or broken people. Would they suddenly get the love for fixing defective things I did ?
I doubt it. I got these skills as a young child through poverty. Anyway I've already seen what happens in some of those families. They have strong hierarchies and the weaker members sort of end up in a place, where they feel lower than its healthy for a person to feel.
What you seem to be saying is that you don't fulfill what you think are the acceptable requirements physically and mentally to be fit for a relationship, else why be so worried about someone seeing you. ? You say you have spent time with lots of women, yet I don't feel you've grasped the full range of whats out there.
Many women are very abstract, especially in the non religious adademic middle classes. Actually now that I think about it these are the very types who seem to marry gay men pretending to be straight..but thats not what I was going to say. Some of these are the sort of women who just love quirky Woody Allen men with tortured minds and wimpy physiques. They love good intention and like me they like to find something thats broken and thrown away. They teach this to their daughters too. I live near a University. I see this everyday.
I've met women who would love to make me a project. To sort me out and breathe new life into me. All I have to do is be up for it, to be honest about all my problems and to make happiness a priority. Of course I would'nt trust them completely. Many of them dont have a clue what they're doing.
Anyway I'm just throwing ideas in. I don't really need a women to fix me, like I said when I got depressed all my creative processes turned inward like everything tends to do, and I did really good at healing myself and trying all sorts of crazy remedies and treatments. I suppose a depressed person who was strict and demanding before it happened might commit suicide easily. Ayway I found the process itself was healthy. I hope you get creative.
You say you have problems I put in my list of things that make a person Male deficient. The only reason I found about them is due to having the problems myself or seeing them in people I know. Sensory overload and poor concentration I treat with Omega 3 salmon oil. The anxieties I used to drown in benzodiazines created tolerance and aren't as sustainable as the anxiety wants to be. I use Zopiclone small dose for that. Eating Healthy, Strenous exercise, Deep thinking, Creative projects and zany friends all seem to do the trick for me..
Posted by deirdrehbrt on January 8, 2004, at 10:38:48
In reply to Re: get creative, posted by Omega Woman on January 7, 2004, at 14:18:31
Well, as a full member to the GLBT community, I would (perhaps through folly), like to add a bit here.
I don't doubt that there is a bit more mental illness in the GLBT community. First, the 'T' section. By being transgendered, one is by definition mentally ill. It's unfortunate, but it's still in the DSM-IV. This has been a huge problem for transgendered individuals, as the transsexual seeking treatment is diagnosed, and is mentally ill. If the rules were to change, then the transsexual would seek treatment, but insurance wouldn't cover it (hormones, etc.) and the individual remains trapped.As far as others are concerned, I don't doubt that the Lesbian and Gay people, as well as the transgendered and questioning who have been out for some time could indeed suffer from depression, and other personality 'disorders'. My own experience of beatings during school, and on the street, are doubtfully very different from others, and growing up like that is quite likely to cause a distrust and anger toward society. There can be huge outpourings of anger toward a god, or pleading questions as to why did I have to be born this way. Some of us were admonished and damned by our clergy.
None of this is in the recipe for raising a healthy child, is it? So, while we may suffer with 'mental illnes', it isn't because we 'Chose' to be born this way. It isn't 'Because' we are Gay, Lesbian, Bi, or Trans. It is, in my opinion, a result of what we suffered at the hands of the 'Strait' contingent that thought us evil. I'm not condemning all strait people, just the ones who for whatever reason have decided that anything else is wrong. It's just like any other form of abuse.
there's my nickel's worth.
Dee.
This is the end of the thread.
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