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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 26. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on May 5, 2009, at 19:16:49
In reply to Apparently my T's plan is..., posted by TherapyGirl on May 5, 2009, at 18:53:04
For you to leave her? What on earth was the context for that?
Hmmm.....
I *have* said to my therapist that the instant he tells me that he will be leaving me, that he already has left me and ceases to be my therapist immediately. So maybe I sorta understand that. She's trying to give you the power to leave her so that you'll be doing the abandoning instead of her?
Well, it doesn't work if she suggests it. Sheesh.
I've talked to my therapist about your therapist retiring, and moving across state, and being in touch with you but not all that much. He asked me (with far too much genuine, if gentle, interest) what *would* be the right way to go about retirement in those circumstances. I told him there was no right way. He gave me that smile that he gives me when he's gotten me to say something that he could never say.
There is no *right* way for her to do this.
But maybe she could be a bit more active in preparing a nest for you once she goes? Giving you the names of people who won't come close to filling her shoes. Reminding you of things you've done in the past that have made feeling alone a bit better. Supporting your efforts to bring a canine friend into your life.
And apologizing a heck of a lot for hurting you, and telling you how much it hurts her to hurt you, and how much she'll miss having you in her life. And really really acknowledging the pain it causes to have someone you rely on, someone who encouraged you to rely on her, leave you.
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 5, 2009, at 19:51:35
In reply to Re: Apparently my T's plan is... » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on May 5, 2009, at 19:16:49
> For you to leave her? What on earth was the context for that?
>
> Hmmm.....
>
> I *have* said to my therapist that the instant he tells me that he will be leaving me, that he already has left me and ceases to be my therapist immediately. So maybe I sorta understand that. She's trying to give you the power to leave her so that you'll be doing the abandoning instead of her?
>
> Well, it doesn't work if she suggests it. Sheesh.Yeah, something like that. She said something about doing it in an empowering and healthy way. Whatever. I cried for the first time tonight then and said, "You obviously do not understand anything I've been saying to you for months." She asked for clarification on that and I told her, "I don't think I have enough minutes before you're gone to figure out how to do this and you're suggesting that I leave early."
>
> I've talked to my therapist about your therapist retiring, and moving across state, and being in touch with you but not all that much. He asked me (with far too much genuine, if gentle, interest) what *would* be the right way to go about retirement in those circumstances. I told him there was no right way. He gave me that smile that he gives me when he's gotten me to say something that he could never say.
>
> There is no *right* way for her to do this.
>
> But maybe she could be a bit more active in preparing a nest for you once she goes?
YES. This is what it doesn't feel like she's doing.>Giving you the names of people who won't come close to filling her shoes. Reminding you of things you've done in the past that have made feeling alone a bit better. Supporting your efforts to bring a canine friend into your life.
The stuff above she is doing but it just makes me crazy. It feels like an insincere, inaccurate cheer. But that's probably just me.
> And apologizing a heck of a lot for hurting you, and telling you how much it hurts her to hurt you, and how much she'll miss having you in her life. And really really acknowledging the pain it causes to have someone you rely on, someone who encouraged you to rely on her, leave you.The closest she's gotten to apologizing is saying, "I'm sorry this is so hard for you." NOT an apology. It really isn't.
Maybe I should fly you here so you can go to my sessions with me, Dinah. I have a feeling you could get the point across better than I've been able to.
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 5, 2009, at 20:47:51
In reply to Re: Apparently my T's plan is..., posted by TherapyGirl on May 5, 2009, at 19:51:35
Posted by Dinah on May 5, 2009, at 21:52:08
In reply to Re: Apparently my T's plan is..., posted by TherapyGirl on May 5, 2009, at 19:51:35
> > But maybe she could be a bit more active in preparing a nest for you once she goes?
> YES. This is what it doesn't feel like she's doing.
>
> >Giving you the names of people who won't come close to filling her shoes. Reminding you of things you've done in the past that have made feeling alone a bit better. Supporting your efforts to bring a canine friend into your life.
>
> The stuff above she is doing but it just makes me crazy. It feels like an insincere, inaccurate cheer. But that's probably just me.Well, like I said, there is no right way. Anything she does can be perceived, in context, as being done for her, or not being caring enough. Because she can't do the one thing you really want her to do. Not leave.
Can you think of what would be helpful to you, given that? If you think of a future with only sporadic long term contact with this person, what will line your nest? Is there any conceivable way your therapist *can* help you with that? Is there any way you can let her help you, given the undeniable fact that she is leaving, and leaving you here?
There may be nothing at all she can do to make this ok for you. Or even substantially better. Because in the end, she's the one who is hurting you, however much she doesn't want to hurt you. Maybe, just maybe, you need to find someone else who can help you deal with this pain.
Or maybe you just need her to be there with you, when you cry at how much her not being there with you will hurt.
>
> > And apologizing a heck of a lot for hurting you, and telling you how much it hurts her to hurt you, and how much she'll miss having you in her life. And really really acknowledging the pain it causes to have someone you rely on, someone who encouraged you to rely on her, leave you.
>
> The closest she's gotten to apologizing is saying, "I'm sorry this is so hard for you." NOT an apology. It really isn't.
>
> Maybe I should fly you here so you can go to my sessions with me, Dinah. I have a feeling you could get the point across better than I've been able to.
>See, there's the problem. When it was my therapist doing the leaving, I couldn't get the point across. Because however much he understands how much he would hurt me if he left, once he's leaving he's going to cover that with self protective justifications. It's not his fault. He is doing everything he can. I'm being unreasonable and making his life difficult. Because he doesn't want to hurt me. And because he's only human, with the same frailties we all have. I'd like to think his training would overcome that. But to some extent my therapist, and your therapist, put aside a bit of their objectivity to really care about us. That's great while it lasts. We feel loved and nurtured. But there are times, and this is one of them, when it has a definite downside.
Your therapist doesn't want to hurt you. She does care about you. She doesn't want to be the cause of your pain. And she'll protect herself, in a way.
I don't know anything that can be done, really, except talk about it with as much openness as you can muster, and hope she responds in kind. I think it takes a delicate balancing act of holding onto the anger and blame you genuinely feel, while grasping just as tight to the love you feel for her and the love you know she feels for you, and battling for truth. Although the truth might not be completely appealing to either of you.
Or I suppose you could get angry enough at her, or find enough faults in her, to reject her first. Hard to do though. I've always told my therapist that when he said he was leaving me, he would have already left me. And in a way that was true. He said the words "I can no longer be your therapist". And at that point, things would never be the same again. Yet, while it was true he left me, it wasn't true that he was no longer my therapist.
I don't know. I really don't. It's hard. For both of you. Though of course, I'm completely sympathetic for how hard it is for you, while only intellectually sympathetic for how hard it is for her.
But d*mmit. I loved the idiot, even when he left me. He was still my therapist/mommy. I was furious and I still loved him. Would she be at all willing to talk about her feelings in this? I think one way we made it through is that my therapist was (relatively) honest about how hard it was for him. I don't know if therapists understand that when it comes to things like this, a bit of vulnerability on their side helps a whole lot.
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2009, at 10:09:12
In reply to Re: Apparently my T's plan is..., posted by Dinah on May 5, 2009, at 21:52:08
You know, I think some people (therapists included) are reluctant to apologize because they see apologies as accepting blame and they don't see themselves as being to blame.
IMO, that's a mistaken view of apologies.
A proper apology has three parts, the three R's. Taking Responsibility, Expressing (hopefully genuine) Regret, and attempting Repair.
In this case she could easily apologize without acknowledging blame (as in doing something wrong). Something like:
Therapygirl, I know that my choice to retire and leave the area is causing you a lot of pain. I felt like moving was the right thing for me and my family, but I understand that to you it feels like abandonment, and perhaps even more, like abandonment in favor of a "sibling" given that to some extent I have stood in loco parentis to you for over twenty years. I've helped you grow into the really admirable woman you are now.
I'd have to be a stone not to grow to care about you in those many many sessions over all that time. We've spent so much time helping you grow to learn to live with disappointment and loss caused by others. But I never ever wanted to be the cause of that loss myself. I really regret that I have.
We both know I can't give you the thing you most want from me. A promise not to leave you. And I hope that in our years of therapy, I've helped you discover many of the strengths and skills you'll need to get through this and have a wonderful life... without me. But I want to do whatever I can to make this easier for you. What can I realistically do? I can also give suggestions myself, while recognizing that they may not be what you need from me.
*
*
*See, not expressing a hint of blame, but doing all three R's.
Would that be helpful to you?
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2009, at 10:20:58
In reply to Apologies, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2009, at 10:09:12
Hmmm...
I think I'd also prefer that my therapist express his feelings of frustration and helplessness upon causing me pain, but having no way to fix it.
That would give us someplace to start to really discuss it.
But that's me.
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 6, 2009, at 11:30:04
In reply to Apologies, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2009, at 10:09:12
Definitely. But she has to somehow generate it herself. It just loses all credibility if I have to tell her to say that.
Is that unfair?
I'm still leaning towards flying you in for a session with me and T.
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 6, 2009, at 11:35:55
In reply to Re: Apologies, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2009, at 10:20:58
She's done a little of this. Last night, in total frustration she said, "I can't fix this for you. YOU have to fix it."
Not helpful in that context, but okay the way you put it.
Of course, she also yelled, "Bullsh*t. That is total Bullsh*t" at one point. She would say she doesn't yell, but she does. She's just not as loud as other people when she does it.
I yelled at her, too. I told her I hate coming to my sessions now and I hate talking about this stuff. That's what I apologized for. Well, that and snorting when she asked me if I had been posting here lately (with desperate hope in her voice, or so it seemed to me). She asked me what was funny and I said, "Nothing." She said, "You laughed. It's not nothing. Do you not want to tell me?" And I said, "NO." Because it was just too mean at that point and I was trying to be civil. Then she said, "You're shutting me out. That's not going to make this better."
It was just a horrible session.
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2009, at 11:46:41
In reply to Re: Apologies » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on May 6, 2009, at 11:30:04
It's not unfair. But it may not be a realistic hope.
I admit I tell people all the time what I need to hear. My therapist will often counter with what he feels he is able to say. The resulting negotiation often leads to a compromise we can both live with. I hope he would do the same with me. It's hard to know what other people need to hear. It would do me no good to wait for him to say something that he might well feel, but that it might not occur to him to express.
But if someone does know what I need to hear, and says it with truth and genuineness, or maybe even especially if we negotiate on wording that one can say with all truth and the other can accept with good feeling, it is just as good. Really. The key is the level of genuineness. If someone robotly repeats it back, then no. But if someone figuratively holds us and says "But Dinah, of course that's how I feel. Didn't you know that?" it can feel very special.
I'm going to share something with you that could cause me incredible embarrassment, since I don't recall the circumstances and I may have been acting like an idiot. But it's an on Babble example of how truly touching a requested apology can be. It still makes me tear up a bit.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050128/msgs/451552.html
Ask. You just may receive.
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2009, at 11:51:36
In reply to Re: Apologies » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on May 6, 2009, at 11:35:55
Chuckle.
Maybe I ought to accept my therapist's suggestion that we write a book together.
This would be an example of what may have been a wonderful feeling, expressed not so very wonderfully.
Posted by Phillipa on May 6, 2009, at 12:36:45
In reply to Re: Apologies » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2009, at 11:51:36
Seriously I just read this thread and I'm almost glad I've never formed bond this strong with anyone sounds worse than a marriage collapsing. Not criticising just so sorry for you. Love Phillipa
Posted by Annierose on May 6, 2009, at 19:56:04
In reply to Apparently my T's plan is..., posted by TherapyGirl on May 5, 2009, at 18:53:04
I think there are different levels of conversation going on in your session. You want her to say "I made a mistake, I'm not leaving." Anything short of that makes you angry that she is not helping. And that puts her in a lose-lose situation.
Unfortunately, therapist retire, move or close their practice for personal reasons. And I can only imagine how painful that process is for the therapist and especially all the clients - YOU! It really does s*ck especially since you have worked together for years.
I think your therapist is trying to get you to face the seperation head-on. She is not treading lightly since time is approaching. She isn't changing her mind.
I'm not being unsympathetic - I would be upset too - but I think you need to take an active role in this process. For me, that would mean checking out other therapists while I still have "mine" to sort them out with. I know my t wouldn't say "he's good" "she's not so good" --- but I think by talking about my choices with my t after I 'interviewed them' - I would feel that she helped me move on to the next.
When my brother died suddenly a few years ago, I knew that my therapist was about the same age (52ish). So I asked her to do something for me. I wanted her to do a "professional will" of sorts - even if it only said - "I am leaving the following therapist recommendations for Annierose: x, y and z." Now I don't know if she followed through, but I know she listened to my request.
Anger gets me stuck in therapy so maybe this is pure projection. I recall Ladybugs sortof similar situation a few months ago. When she was able to express her loving feelings after working through her anger, the seperation was more bitter-sweet than pure hell.
And your t is right - babble is open 24/7
Posted by twilight on May 6, 2009, at 23:21:46
In reply to Re: Apologies, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2009, at 11:46:41
Dinah, you say what you mean, so well:
>>> I admit I tell people all the time what I need to hear. My therapist will often counter with what he feels he is able to say. The resulting negotiation often leads to a compromise we can both live with. I hope he would do the same with me. It's hard to know what other people need to hear. It would do me no good to wait for him to say something that he might well feel, but that it might not occur to him to express.
>>> But if someone does know what I need to hear, and says it with truth and genuineness, or maybe even especially if we negotiate on wording that one can say with all truth and the other can accept with good feeling, it is just as good. Really. The key is the level of genuineness. <<****
This was beautiful to read! Sorry to jump in, but I just had to comment on this.
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2009, at 23:45:37
In reply to Re: Apologies » Dinah, posted by twilight on May 6, 2009, at 23:21:46
Thank you!
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 7, 2009, at 19:36:29
In reply to Re: Apologies, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2009, at 11:46:41
Thank you, Dinah. That's all I can say. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for this.
((((((((Dinah))))))))
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 7, 2009, at 19:38:10
In reply to Re: Apologies, posted by Phillipa on May 6, 2009, at 12:36:45
Thanks for the support, Phillipa.
Keep in mind that you are just seeing the yucky part. Not the part where she provided the first safe place I've ever had. I think that's part of what's so hard for me here. It feels like the bottom of my safety net is gone and I can't fix it.
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 7, 2009, at 19:45:25
In reply to Re: Apparently my T's plan is..., posted by Annierose on May 6, 2009, at 19:56:04
Thanks, Annie. I think you are partially right, but I am very very clear that she's not going to not leave me. I really am frustrated that she is not helping me put tools in place to deal with that.
And she really isn't dealing with it head on. It took MONTHS for her to even bring it up (or to not change the subject when I brought it up). I had to beg her to talk about this.
But you are also right that there isn't anything she can do to make this okay for me. The best I can hope for is tolerable. And it doesn't look like that's going to happen either.
Posted by Dinah on May 8, 2009, at 7:42:34
In reply to Re: Apologies » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on May 7, 2009, at 19:36:29
Posted by muffled on May 9, 2009, at 11:42:41
In reply to Apparently my T's plan is..., posted by TherapyGirl on May 5, 2009, at 18:53:04
Hey TG, sorry you struggling.
Sorry its so hard.
Seems there is no answer.
I suck at goodbyes.
Goodbyes suck.
Is there any chance that you can email T 1x/mo so you know she out there?
Other than that, you will need to find a new source of support.
Just the way it is.
Hard, sucks, but reality.
The reality also is , is that you CAN live w/o her. You can.
Course you don't want to, but you can.
Anyhow, I started reading this free story on the net and its bout attachment to T. I dunno if its any good as I just started it, but it made me think of you.
Maybe there's some ideas in it? I dunno.
FWIW, I think this panoc of separation etc is comming from a child part, and so needs to be appraoched and comfprted from a child POV....which is challenging. Kids are kinda all over and don't seems to make sense from an adlut POV, but they kids and thats how they are.
I wonder if you could find a T that works more with ego states, or ? I dunno, like family systems? or something, but anyways a T that will work w/the younger parts of self, which IMHO we ALL have. I am not talking dissociation, but just child parts of self.
Mayber you could try and appraich that part?
Maybe you could have your T try and approach this child part, and maybe she could communicate better w/you if she understood she was communicating w/a child part?
You can get thru this TG.
Not easy, but I thnk you got what it takes. And I can see you in the future helping others w/their struggles.
You've made it this far.
Keep going.
Oh, here's link, I apologize in advance if its awful....
http://home.comcast.net/~riversrages/DeepTherapy/intro.htm
I just wanted to post this cuz I not have much time these days and wanted to posdt to you or it might slip by.
Please takle care OK?
((((((TG))))))
Muffled
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 10, 2009, at 8:14:28
In reply to Re: Apparently my T's plan is..., posted by muffled on May 9, 2009, at 11:42:41
Thanks, Muffled. You are always so kind, so supportive and occasionally willing to give me a little kick in the *ss, which is needed.
My T will let me have some contact -- I will talk to her on the phone, but I'm not sure how often and I'll see her every few months, but again not sure how often.
I suspect one of the things that would make this easier for me is if she would spell out the contact more clearly. But I've asked her before and she only talks about it very abstractly. I suspect because she doesn't know how that will play out. If I knew exactly what to expect and what I was up against, I think it would be slightly easier for me. Still not okay, but slightly easier.
She hasn't mentioned post-therapy contact at all in these recent horrible sessions. It makes me wonder if she's counting the days until I'm not her responsibility anymore.
God, I hate this more than anything.
(((((((Muffled))))))))
Posted by Dinah on May 10, 2009, at 9:19:52
In reply to Re: Apparently my T's plan is... » muffled, posted by TherapyGirl on May 10, 2009, at 8:14:28
Oh wow. That's a biggie.
I don't know if they realize that we need those boundaries, however much we complain. They not only tell us what we can't have, they make clear what we can have.
If it's hard for her to know enough to promise exactly, I hope she figures out how important it is at least to give examples of how she thinks it will look, subject to change.
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 10, 2009, at 20:29:32
In reply to Re: Apparently my T's plan is... » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on May 10, 2009, at 9:19:52
Yep. I've been hesitant to bring it up again, afraid of the answer if I push. But it's making me crazy.
She told me she needed some ideas from me about what I need her to do. This is what I have so far:
1. Tell me exactly what I can expect in terms of frequency of contact via phone and in person.
2. Give me specific, concrete things to do to deal with the pain. (Surely she can do this, right?)
3. STOP asking me if I want a referral. Even if I manage to eventually talk myself into this, it feels too much like the replacement thing right now and I can't deal with it. Last week, I almost asked her how she would feel if someone told her she should be dating (her husband died last fall). Because that's the way it feels to me. She is not just my T, in my mind and in my heart she's my family. And I can't just switch to someone else. I can't even think about it right now.
Posted by muffled on May 11, 2009, at 13:10:46
In reply to Re: Apparently my T's plan is... » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on May 10, 2009, at 20:29:32
> Yep. I've been hesitant to bring it up again, afraid of the answer if I push. But it's making me crazy.
>
> She told me she needed some ideas from me about what I need her to do. This is what I have so far:
>
> 1. Tell me exactly what I can expect in terms of frequency of contact via phone and in person.*Ya, as exact as she can anyways. Like maybe you could make a list and she could tick off those which apply, then she can't weasle out of it.
Like
1. email contact and 1 reply 1x/mo
or
2. email 1x/wk, but only 1 reply/mo
or
3. 1 10 min. phone call/mo.
or
4. 1 phone call and 1 email/mo.
or ?
-she might add, no crisis calls....cuz she can't deal with that from a distance....
Contact is just for you to know "she out there...".
Thats how it worked for me w/old T.
I still have occasional casual contact.
I am waiting 2 yrs, then we may or may not choose to be 'friends' at that point.> 2. Give me specific, concrete things to do to deal with the pain. (Surely she can do this, right?)
*ummm I dunno, it just friggen gonna hurt :(
Basic stages of grief stuff might be useful...
And yes, it DOES get easier...> 3. STOP asking me if I want a referral. Even if I manage to eventually talk myself into this, it feels too much like the replacement thing right now and I can't deal with it. Last week, I almost asked her how she would feel if someone told her she should be dating (her husband died last fall). Because that's the way it feels to me. She is not just my T, in my mind and in my heart she's my family. And I can't just switch to someone else. I can't even think about it right now.
*weeelllll
I dunno that I agree w/your interpretation here....
Of course what you FEEL is what you feel, and feelings can be awfully illogical, but we still gotta deal w/them...Anyhow, if you grumpy, don't read below....
I been having awful PMS myself and been grumpy, but this below is not grumpy, just MY perception, just so's you can contemplate and mebbe it can help.So
I don't interpret getting a new T as 'replacing' old T. My old T was who she was and I did not 'replace' her. My new T is NOTHING like her.(lol! I kinda pissed at my T right now cuz she going away 3 wks, so I not feeling very charitable towards her...)Old T was SO much more cosy and she was same religion as me. So replace- no, but I changed as I needed ongoing support.
So, if you were going to lose ongoing contact with a very supportive family member.....wouldn't you want support to get thru that? Its a real loss. Especially when is is SO emotionally charged.
I think this is why you two are having such a problem with this parting of the ways. You are two human beings that are very very connected. Its not really a common average T relationship. Its going to be VERY hard to let go. Its going to be very hard for BOTH of you to keep clear heads on this.
So this is why I am sorry, but I keep badgering you to get outside help with this.
Even if temporarily, or even maybe you could sit down as a threesome and discuss stuff?
Its just a real real hard situation you got here.
And if it was a special friend(and not T) that was involved, I'd recommend counselling.....so why is this any different then? Your T is not magic, she's just a person, and this is likely very hard and confusing for her too. She probably has support thru this....where is your support thru this? It can't really be T, cuz she leaving....
I think for the sake of having a better parting(or mostly parting-you will have contact, and she's not dead) and not having this all go bad and ugly, then you need to get an outsider to help counsel the both of you thru this. Thats what counsellors are FOR. To be able to step back and give an uninvolved perspective on things.I am sorry if I am making you angry.
I only wrote this cuz I trust that you understand that I only want what is best for you.
And if you were my sister, I would be saying exactly these things to you, cuz thats what family does, cuz they care, and they trust that even though we may get angry w/each other, we will eventually sort things out.
Please take care.
I am concerned.
I would like to see you guys part more amicably.
((((((((((TG))))))))))))
Muffled
Posted by muffled on May 11, 2009, at 13:11:51
In reply to Re: Apparently my T's plan is..., posted by muffled on May 11, 2009, at 13:10:46
sorry I meant to add that I am crazy busy right now, so my replies may be delayed or errtic.
Thx take care
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 11, 2009, at 17:45:02
In reply to Re: Apparently my T's plan is..., posted by muffled on May 11, 2009, at 13:10:46
I would never, ever get mad at you for supporting me. You always give me lots to think about.
So I will think about this. I'm trying to wrap my head around the new T thing, but it's an uphill battle. I might have to print out your post and read it a lot.
Love ya' Muffly!
This is the end of the thread.
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