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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by am3ma on April 28, 2009, at 20:08:45
Perturbed by a recent observation regarding my neivity, I have come here in attempt to broaden my thoughts.
Currently my life is dominated by personal doubt and dysfunction. My therapist has ultimate faith in my ability to heal and conquer. I on the other hand, see an historical reinforcement of my limitations as a member of society.
At 17 my then boyfriend said of me that I was "naive". I didn't understand. Recently at professional training, a psychologist commented (also) that I was "naive". A well-meaning friend has observed that my "naivety is interconnected with fear, loathing and anger", especially in the light of the "conflict I display in my love of others and hatred of (myself)".
I'm not an academic but I do have innate intelligence. I've lived by my wits and have defied the odds, bringing up good citizens.
On my own now, I find I don't fit in socially, for the purpose of employment.
Could somebody 'out there' help me to understand the dilemma I'm in - the dysfunction caused by naivety with intelligence?
Posted by garnet71 on April 28, 2009, at 20:49:49
In reply to neivity and intelligence, posted by am3ma on April 28, 2009, at 20:08:45
Well it's hard to tell from just a few small paragraphs, but it reminds me of someone I know. See if you can relate to this at all.
It can be an indiction of self-defeating behavior and/or being in denial. You know better, but you let something happen to you (though not conscious of it); sort of pretending like you didn't know better. When a person is in denial, they often don't recognize this.
An example of self-defeating behavior that can make one appear naive: You need a new furnace so you call a contractor to come out and give you an estimate. The contractor advertises all over the place, and you assume they are ok. The next day, your neighbor, who noticed the truck in your driveway, comes over and warns you that was the same contractor from whom they recently purchased their central air system from, and they got ripped off. If you were not 'naive', you'd check, ask questions, and get 2 other estimates. Instead, you hire this contractor justifying to yourself, with thoughts like this running through your head "the guy seemed nice; the guy seemed honest; the price was what I expected, I heard they did a good job for someone else...etc." So you don't get the other estimates and hire the contractor despite the warning from your neighbor. The contractor comes to your house to install the furnace, and although the contractor's pattern of sales and installation behavior is similar to how your neighbor got ripped off, you don't question them, and you end up getting ripped off too. With self-defeating behavior, you unconsciously set yourself up as a "victim".
Sometimes people have a self-esteem so low--they create their own perpetual victimization to "justify" their worth; their existence. If they were not being victimized, they would be invisible, worthless.
Or-for another scenario--you could be scared the contractor would get upset if you stood up for yourself, and not wanting to be 'rejected' by the person, you unconsciously ignore what's going on as you get ripped off. I don't know if this is the case with you personally, but I've observed this trait in people who are in denial or people who don't want to unconsciously 'make waves' (stand up for themselves when something is wrong) in fear of being rejected or not liked by the other person.
So despite being intelligent, you get yourself in stupid situations.
Or I could be totally off; maybe you are intelligent, but just not 'street smart'. Or maybe you are too trusting, assuming everyone is as benevolent as you are, for example.
Either way, you might want to read up on "self-defeating behavior" - I think that goes hand in hand with intelligent people who are perceived to be naive. Just my personal opinion as an observor of people. Great you are searching for answers. :-)
Posted by garnet71 on April 28, 2009, at 21:06:49
In reply to neivity and intelligence, posted by am3ma on April 28, 2009, at 20:08:45
Oh, i forgot to mention-if you often find yourself going around complaining to friends, family about things that happened to you (as a result of being naive), or show you are upset about your experiences in being a victim or hurt, that would indicate that perpetual victimization concept I explained.
On the other hand, if you don't realize what happened until others point it out to you, show you how you were naive, you could have an unconscious fear of being judged or not liked, so your mind overlooks important things--things you should have known better--to protect you from emotional injury.
Both can be classified as self-defeating behavior.
Posted by Dinah on April 28, 2009, at 21:25:21
In reply to neivity and intelligence, posted by am3ma on April 28, 2009, at 20:08:45
I don't think there's a direct correlation to intelligence. Many intelligent people are naive. How many people were taken in by that investment advisor?
I imagine there could be a lot of reasons for that. Can you give a few examples of how it affects you? Is there a pattern?
(Welcome to Babble.)
Posted by SLS on April 29, 2009, at 6:37:12
In reply to Re: neivity and intelligence, posted by garnet71 on April 28, 2009, at 20:49:49
Some people will do anything to people-please and avoid conflict. Having little or no self-esteem can result in this behavior. So, too, can early traumas and punishment for displaying anger. Someone can have high self-esteem, but still yield to people pleasing and avoidance of conflict. Having high self-esteem can make it easier to effect behavioral changes, but it is not mutually exclusive to lack of boundaries.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 29, 2009, at 6:43:37
In reply to Re: neivity and intelligence » am3ma, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2009, at 21:25:21
> I don't think there's a direct correlation to intelligence. Many intelligent people are naive. How many people were taken in by that investment advisor?
We do not leave the womb with knowledge of those things we are said to be naive to. If one is not exposed to a learning experience, this is not the fault of any lack of intelligence.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on April 29, 2009, at 12:23:12
In reply to Re: neivity and intelligence, posted by SLS on April 29, 2009, at 6:43:37
I've never been street smart. Wasn't taught to be afraid. I feared what happened at home. I tend to people please and trust others as expect them to be as trustworthy as I am. I wouldn't hurt a flea unknowingly. Sometimes things just happen. I've trusted many docs to have them convince me to feel not ready to work again for example. Maybe they were right I don't know. I know I'm intelligent or why magna cum laude and straight A's in nursing school? Must be a reason why. I do have horrible low self-esteem and take all criticism to heart. Phillipa
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 29, 2009, at 14:08:22
In reply to neivity and intelligence, posted by am3ma on April 28, 2009, at 20:08:45
Hi there, do you know what others have meant when they call you naive? I mean, in what context--what did you say or do that ended in their observation?
I have a loved one who is very passive. In my less kind moments, I would call that person a "naive optimistic," because he sees the good in people, because to do otherwise would be to risk conflict, hurt, anger...he doesn't realize he is being naive (and who am I to criticize him--he isn't on meds., like me, nor does he have an anxiety or depression disorder, so maybe some of that is a good thing), but conflict is not his bag.
However, he doesn't end up getting personally hurt if his naivete is revealed. He just moves on.
Oh, and this person is extremely intelligent.
So I don't think intelligence has anything to do with, whether in a positive or negative way.
I think it has more to do with how one views oneself and what one can handle. Willful niavete can be a defense mechanism.
So again, could you say a little bit more about what situations cause these observations to arise?
> Perturbed by a recent observation regarding my neivity, I have come here in attempt to broaden my thoughts.
> Currently my life is dominated by personal doubt and dysfunction. My therapist has ultimate faith in my ability to heal and conquer. I on the other hand, see an historical reinforcement of my limitations as a member of society.
> At 17 my then boyfriend said of me that I was "naive". I didn't understand. Recently at professional training, a psychologist commented (also) that I was "naive". A well-meaning friend has observed that my "naivety is interconnected with fear, loathing and anger", especially in the light of the "conflict I display in my love of others and hatred of (myself)".
> I'm not an academic but I do have innate intelligence. I've lived by my wits and have defied the odds, bringing up good citizens.
> On my own now, I find I don't fit in socially, for the purpose of employment.
> Could somebody 'out there' help me to understand the dilemma I'm in - the dysfunction caused by naivety with intelligence?
>
>
Posted by am3ma on April 29, 2009, at 17:27:55
In reply to Re: neivity and intelligence, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 29, 2009, at 14:08:22
Thanks everyone.
Perhaps the emotions I'm currently experiencing can open the window to my problem a little further.
Firstly, I don't take constructive personal attention lightly. I'm tearful because of the openness and empathy you've all shown toward my plight. (In contrast, when approached negatively, I deal with it there and then but, the internal process takes days and up to months!)
I'm a visual artist, have been a carer most of my life, have successfully worked with the aged and disabled and homeless. I speak and present well and am seen as a strong person.
From early memory I've learnt to be afraid of people and that I wasn't worthy. I needed to be needed and consequently believed that the needs of others were a priority for my wellbeing.
As a teenager I challenged my fears and found that I could act confidently. Act, being the operative word. My sister was most critical of my behaviour and still is (sad outcome). This act has worked for me until:
My recent 'unseating' took place in the workplace where a once friendly and embracing manager decided, after 4 days' at training together, that I had something about me which she perceived as a threat to the program. This statement was regularly put to me over a three month period. The only insight I was briefly given was that she felt this way after she observed my confident interaction with professionals present at the training. I was then, terminated.
I can intellectualise the situation but the point that, there was something innately wrong with me, has had a profound effect and for the first time in my life I can't transcend this 'truth'. It has reinforced the negatives which I'm now remembering from my beginnings.
Since my previous posting, I took part in a telephone interview and have been asked to progress to the next level. Excellent. Yes I'm fighting the internal talk as past experience has told me that I am employable BUT...........but....I'm terrified as I know people can and will clearly see that there is something wrong with me.
I shall begin with Self-Defeating Behaviour literature - thanks. If there are other insights, experiences, please help me.
Thank you ALL.
Posted by am3ma on April 29, 2009, at 18:26:10
In reply to Re: neivity and intelligence, posted by garnet71 on April 28, 2009, at 21:06:49
Thanks 'g'. I can relate to many aspects of what you say. I am afraid and need to be liked but not to the point of playing the victim. I'm at my best in the care role when/if I'm invisible. This invisibility has its mystery too and I've recently wondered if by retreating i'm inadvertently making it all about myself. Don't know. I may be over analising.
Another thought: I've noticed that if I'm asked a question, e.g. an assessment of a situation, I will, with permission speak openly. I'm rarely challenged and wonder why as I'm always explaining that my opinions are open to challenge/learning.
I seem to lack diplomacy?
Posted by am3ma on April 30, 2009, at 17:53:37
In reply to Re: neivity and intelligence, posted by Phillipa on April 29, 2009, at 12:23:12
> I've never been street smart. Wasn't taught to be afraid. I feared what happened at home. I tend to people please and trust others as expect them to be as trustworthy as I am. I wouldn't hurt a flea unknowingly. Sometimes things just happen. I've trusted many docs to have them convince me to feel not ready to work again for example. Maybe they were right I don't know. I know I'm intelligent or why magna cum laude and straight A's in nursing school? Must be a reason why. I do have horrible low self-esteem and take all criticism to heart. Phillipa
Hi Phillipa,
thanks for sharing.
I did my best to research the condition of self-defeating behaviour and found some elements were true for myself now, how I've delivered my parenting skills and in people around me. I've also read Men Who Hate Women and The Women Who Love Them.
..."Self-discipline, to reject the negative inner voice and concentrate on the event, not the self.." I've known all along that this is the task but low self-esteem, the dominant demon which is awoken by external events reinforces its place despite the fact that I KNOW there is no place for it in my life, NOW !
It's hard work Phillipa, so "All the best", to you, me and everyone else.
Posted by Phillipa on April 30, 2009, at 23:27:43
In reply to Re: neivity and intelligence, posted by am3ma on April 30, 2009, at 17:53:37
Thanks Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on May 2, 2009, at 9:42:28
In reply to Re: neivity and intelligence, posted by am3ma on April 29, 2009, at 18:26:10
I think it's good that you asked for and got a reply to the more general statement of your not being right for the program. Organizations frequently have a company culture, with unspoken expectations and norms. The organization you were with may have had the group expectation that new people or nonprofessionals should defer to the professionals in meetings. I don't really know the situation, so I can't comment on the specifics with any real knowledge. That's just one possible alternative. Other groups may have other group norms. How did other people in the position you had in that organization interact with the professionals?
You say this is an issue that comes up often in your life? It might be the right time to find a therapist who can observe things directly, and try to assess what might be going on that is negatively affecting your life.
It's really hard to try to figure those things out for ourselves, no matter how hard we try. Because we lack the necessary objectivity to truly look at ourselves as others see us.
Which, as my therapist just told *me*, doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with me. But, he said, I was the only person I had any ability to change, so if I wanted the outcome to change, the change had to come from me.
Posted by am3ma on May 3, 2009, at 6:58:02
In reply to Re: neivity and intelligence » am3ma, posted by Dinah on May 2, 2009, at 9:42:28
Thanks Dinah.
At training, I did as instructed and networked. Others remained in a tight group.Naivety has been a mystery to me as, it's an asset in my art, it's an asset in my sense of justice, it is part of my playfulness and eccentricity BUT it has been used by others, to ... put me down?
I can see myself but NOT through the eyes and experiences of others. That, I can only guess.
Yes, for outcomes not to be repeated, I must make the change ...
I've been frozen in cyclic thought again. How do I change myself? Why can't I be me? etc. etc. Ahhhh!
Posted by Fivefires on May 25, 2009, at 12:11:28
In reply to Re: neivity and intelligence, posted by am3ma on April 29, 2009, at 17:27:55
> Thanks everyone.
> Perhaps the emotions I'm currently experiencing can open the window to my problem a little further.
> Firstly, I don't take constructive personal attention lightly. I'm tearful because of the openness and empathy you've all shown toward my plight. (In contrast, when approached negatively, I deal with it there and then>We are usually limited to this in a workplace. Do you NOT say, to those who speak wrongly to you in the wkplace, 'I would appreciate it very much if you would speak to me in a more professional manner', or something of the sort? I did. I lost the job, but I don't attribute it just to this. It had to be said. Someone would have said it sooner or later. In hindsight, who she was on the outside was not real, and I'd not have enjoyed working there, eventually, anyway.
There is no excuse for an employer or even a person ranking above you, to be unprofessional and w/o a basic understanding of tact and the knowledge to speak in a polite manner to those in a wkplace.
>but, the internal process takes days and up to months!)>
I'd like to take a shot at this one! No; I don't want to forget I CAN do it w/ tact and politeness.
>I'm a visual artist, have been a carer most of my life, have successfully worked with the aged and disabled and homeless. I speak and present well and am seen as a strong person.
> From early memory I've learnt to be afraid of people and that I wasn't worthy.>I am so sorry for this. There are some people we do need to be afraid of, but then the others are gems; seem the minority. I feel so bad you were deemed by whomever or whatever to feel you weren't worthy.
>I needed to be needed>
Well if you were still young and fearing all and thinking yourself unworthy of being a part of 'a good life', I suppose you felt quite lost and someone needing you gave you a purpose. Understandable.
>and consequently believed that the needs of others were a priority for my wellbeing.>
It is wonderful you care about the needs of others. I think it's very admirable you are able to stand back and see yourself as you did.
The latter part about the needs of others being a priority for your well-being may need a little tailoring , 'cuz we do need to steer clear of those rushing and bustling about w/o a care for anyone but themselves, who run us down!
But, I'm feeling your soul would wilt a bit if you were too w/o the empathy you must portray in your work.
More people should stand up for the less fortunate. Be thankful you aren't a me-me-me person.
> As a teenager I challenged my fears and found that I could act confidently. Act, being the operative word. My sister was most critical of my behaviour and still is (sad outcome).>
I'm sorry. Here again is someone you might want to tailor out a bit. It hurts when it is your sister; too I share the situation.
>This act has worked for me until:
> My recent 'unseating' took place in the workplace where a once friendly and embracing manager decided, after 4 days' at training together, that I had something about me which she perceived as a threat to the program. This statement was regularly put to me over a three month period. The only insight I was briefly given was that she felt this way after she observed my confident interaction with professionals present at the training. I was then, terminated.>What a bunch of cr*p! Have you checked back w/ anyone there to see if she has been terminated yet? If not, it is prob' just a matter of time.
> I can intellectualise the situation but the point that, there was something innately wrong with me, has had a profound effect and for the first time in my life I can't transcend this 'truth'. It has reinforced the negatives which I'm now remembering from my beginnings.
> Since my previous posting, I took part in a telephone interview and have been asked to progress to the next level. Excellent. Yes I'm fighting the internal talk as past experience has told me that I am employable BUT...........but....I'm terrified as I know people can and will clearly see that there is something wrong with me.>There are some things wrong w/ all of us. Just give it your best shot and let it go to the interviewers' discretion. Life isn't fair, but believe it will be for you in time.
You are hard on yourself. I too. But, ya' know what? We sort of have to be in this world. It is a freakin' rat race of who's better or faster or richer ... ultimately who is 'the best'. I wonder how many people who are 'the best' these days would spend a moment of time to think of the homeless. Tune them out a bit, yes, but I would sort of hate to see 'your good self' take a back seat. Maybe you can find a balance.
What you do in your life sounds to be very admirable. (I've been so sick I might be repeating myself. So sorry if am.)
> I shall begin with Self-Defeating Behaviour literature - thanks. If there are other insights, experiences, please help me.>
I hope you'll share what you find valuable in your book with us.
Try this. Look at yourself and tell yourself ..
I AM WITHOUT VALUABLE.I WILL BE MORE VALUABLE WHEN I LEARN TO IGNORE THE NASTY REMARKS OF OTHERS. (Maybe ignore isn't the right word here, but I get the feeling you DO VALUE YOUR WORK and if you ignore too much, would you lose your empathy. Idk.)
But, the gist of this is, if you do this a few times, soon it will hit you, WHAT A BUNCH OF BALONEY!
Really .. it's a sort of backwards self-talk that keeps us from lying to ourselves.
Maybe you are not the one to put this employer in their place at this time; but, don't you want someone to? People should 'get the hint' they're mistreating another. We want a better society.
By your work, you have value. But, the employer who spoke to you in the disrespectful, unprofessional, cold (Can I add aloof?), and repetitive, manner can take a fast train to Timbucktoo(sp?) and stop feeding off others' pain to feel their value.
There is kindness out there. That you are searching says so much.
This insight will find you an employer w/ more wisdom and intelligence, and therefore, there should be understanding and good manners; worthy of your employ.
I've been hurt this way myself and I've been hiding, reclusively. You're far ahead of me!
Your story has prompted me to see my own situation a little differently and also given me some HOPE. Thank you so much for sharing am3ma.
> Thank you ALL.>
5f
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