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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by pinkeye on May 11, 2005, at 14:02:43
I am surprised by the common theme in the US in the Ts.. considering my case, and other people's expressions towards their parents, and what their Ts tell them.
Ts here actually fuel our anger towards our parents. They seem to make us more distanced from them, and hold them in our contempt.
In my case, even if I repeatedly defend my dad - saying that he is a good guy basically, she refuses to let me do that. She keeps saying stop defending your dad..
I am surprised to see that. My ex T in India would never make me get angry at my parents. In fact I remember distinctly I started complaining a little about my father in the first few sessions, and he said something like "you are 26, how long are you going to blame your father"..
I think it is more cultural thing. In India, it is considered horribly wrong to blame your parents. They are supposed to be given the utmost respect and kids are supposed to take care of them at any cost to themselves and not speak against them etc.
And now I think, while the model in India is also wrong, that we should atleast acknowledge the mistakes by the parents, and not defend them at a cost to ourselves, I feel what they are doing in the US is also kind of wrong.
What good does it do in the end to make us angry and have contempt towards our parents, and make us emotionally divorced from them? I feel my life would be lot better if I forgave my dad, and still love him. I feel lot more peaceful and at peace with myself, when I acknowledge the good things he did, rather than keep holding contempt and anger at him.
Maybe it has to do with my religion.. We support karmas and being good and forgiving irrespective of what happens to you, and I tend to think, maybe in my previous birth I must have done something wrong to my dad.. and that is why I have to go through some suffering in this life. If I get angry with my dad, then it will do no good for my soul at the end.
Posted by happyflower on May 11, 2005, at 14:52:11
In reply to Why not advice to forgive our parents? **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 11, 2005, at 14:02:43
Well I divorsed my mother because she is still abusive and was starting to get that way with my kids. The last straw was when she put a gun to my brothers head and told him to get out of her house 2 days after my dad from cancer 3 days after X-Mas. All the pain she has put me through is enough for me to say I don't need more, and I don't want my kids to go through that. Just because you have kids doesn't mean you are fit to be a parent. I wish I was adopted, maybe I would have had a better child's life. I wish I was brave enough to tell of her abuse when I was a child, then maybe she would be in prison where she belongs. She has threatend to abduct my kids because I spoil them by not spanking them. She has sent unmarked packages addressed to my kids. One package contained coupons for a local mall for free stuff. Well I found out she forged my name and signed my kids up for this kids club. Well I found out that she worked as security at the mall. She has threatened to use authority against me when I was a teenagager. If I didn't question this package that my kids got, I would have never of known about her working at the mall. She could of said I was shoplifting, and while I was with the police defending myself, she could have abducted my kids. She is a very sick evil woman and I can never trust her ever. So that is my divorse story, sorry to be so blunt, but sometimes ending the relationship is nessary. I don't feel bad about it at all. I am doing what is best for me and my family.
Posted by pinkeye on May 11, 2005, at 15:01:27
In reply to Re: Why not advice to forgive our parents? **trigger**, posted by happyflower on May 11, 2005, at 14:52:11
My Goodness. I understand you now.
I am so sorry for you.. I think you are right. Certain times it is necessary to end the relationship..
I hope things go well for you from here onwards. in the future. I really feel for you. I am sorry.
Posted by sunny10 on May 11, 2005, at 15:40:22
In reply to Re: Why not advice to forgive our parents? **trigger** » happyflower, posted by pinkeye on May 11, 2005, at 15:01:27
It's not a matter of "blame"... it's a matter of owning up to HOW you were raised, and what you must do to make things right for yourself as an adult BECAUSE your parents can't "fix" you....
I believe that the premise here is, "If you can never admit to be treated badly, unfairly, etc... how do you ever admit anything to yourself? How do you accept reality?", not "it's okay because it's someone else's fault"...
At least that's how it's been in my experience...
Posted by pinkeye on May 11, 2005, at 15:42:48
In reply to Re: Why not advice to forgive our parents? **trigger**, posted by sunny10 on May 11, 2005, at 15:40:22
Posted by Tamar on May 11, 2005, at 15:47:13
In reply to Why not advice to forgive our parents? **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 11, 2005, at 14:02:43
I think the theory is that you can't truly forgive your father until you have allowed yourself to acknowledge the pain he has caused you.
Forgiveness might come eventually, but if you try to forgive before you're emotionally ready you will still have problems, because you haven't accepted the full extent of the problems he has caused you.
I think anger is supposed to give you a sense of separation from him. If you never become angry at the pain he caused you, then it's as if you are denying how painful it really was.
Once you are able to feel angry, you can assert your individuality and you can begin to feel more self worth.
I think that's the theory, anyway. I didn't have the same problems with my father, but I did (and still do) find it hard to be angry at the men who raped me. I usually can't see the point of being angry about it - it happened and I can't change it. And my T wanted me to be more angry about it. I think he was right - whenever I feel a little bit angry I feel able to say: It wasn't my fault. I didn't deserve what they did. And I don't plan to forgive them, but one day I'd like to make peace with my past.
It's natural to want to defend your dad, but on the other hand, despite his many good qualities, he has hurt you and you didn't deserve it.
(((((pinkeye)))))
Posted by Shortelise on May 11, 2005, at 15:52:30
In reply to Why not advice to forgive our parents? **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 11, 2005, at 14:02:43
I think we have to recognize where our hurts come from, then work toward forgiveness if we can.
ShortE
Posted by anastasia56 on May 11, 2005, at 17:05:03
In reply to Why not advice to forgive our parents? **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 11, 2005, at 14:02:43
there is something so peaceful about your religion. If one the acknowledges pain and anger towards another and then tries to forgive ultimately this is better for your karma.
I agree with that but then i am not in an ongoing situation as some of the posters are. Mine is behind me and I found that holding on to the pain would not be good for my soul either.
ana
Posted by pinkeye on May 11, 2005, at 18:39:56
In reply to Re: Why not advice to forgive our parents? **trigger** » pinkeye, posted by Tamar on May 11, 2005, at 15:47:13
That makes a lot of sense. I guess the point is allow yourself to feel the anger without denying it or suppressing it or try to move on without fully curing it.
My new T said that I can never really get the anger out of my system fully. But she said that I can understand how it influences my life in the future, how I perceive myself as not worthy, and then I can correct my actions.
That makes sense.
Thanks Tamar
> I think the theory is that you can't truly forgive your father until you have allowed yourself to acknowledge the pain he has caused you.
>
> Forgiveness might come eventually, but if you try to forgive before you're emotionally ready you will still have problems, because you haven't accepted the full extent of the problems he has caused you.
>
> I think anger is supposed to give you a sense of separation from him. If you never become angry at the pain he caused you, then it's as if you are denying how painful it really was.
>
> Once you are able to feel angry, you can assert your individuality and you can begin to feel more self worth.
>
> I think that's the theory, anyway. I didn't have the same problems with my father, but I did (and still do) find it hard to be angry at the men who raped me. I usually can't see the point of being angry about it - it happened and I can't change it. And my T wanted me to be more angry about it. I think he was right - whenever I feel a little bit angry I feel able to say: It wasn't my fault. I didn't deserve what they did. And I don't plan to forgive them, but one day I'd like to make peace with my past.
>
> It's natural to want to defend your dad, but on the other hand, despite his many good qualities, he has hurt you and you didn't deserve it.
>
> (((((pinkeye)))))
>
>
>
>
Posted by pinkeye on May 11, 2005, at 18:40:27
In reply to Re: Why not advice to forgive our parents? **trigger**, posted by Shortelise on May 11, 2005, at 15:52:30
true. I got what my T was trying to tell me. thanks guys.
Posted by pinkeye on May 11, 2005, at 18:43:35
In reply to Re: Why not advice to forgive our parents? **trigger** » pinkeye, posted by anastasia56 on May 11, 2005, at 17:05:03
True. Thanks.
Ultimately the point is to make yourself anger free - so I think what my relgion advocates is pretty good.. actually I think all the religions advocate that. That is the whole purpose of it.. I think relgion was meant as a form of mass therapy intiially - to give general guidelines, and support to people and way of living, advocate goodness etc. And now I see how individually reaching out and healing people one by one is practically impossible. People who really need therapy are perhaps the ones who cannot afford it. And I think having some relgious basic helps a lot of people who cannot have the time and effort required for therapy. I have found that one single concept of karma makes me more at peace with things when they go bad than anything.
Posted by JenStar on May 11, 2005, at 19:22:46
In reply to Why not advice to forgive our parents? **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 11, 2005, at 14:02:43
hi pinkeye,
it's so interesting that you bring up cultural differences that can be invisible to people who only experience one culture! I'm sure that the focus on forgiveness IS due to the prevalence of religion and karma in India. Here in the US, people are angry and litigious -- we sue each other all the time, gun incidences are on the rise, we are angry.I can see strengths and weaknesses in both cultures. I sense that in India, the honor of parents is taken to an excess in many cases, beyond what is healthy, and beyond what many parents deserve. Here in the US, there is probably not enough forgiveness or enough honor for family in general, both from parents and children. I think a happy medium might be the ideal.
I do think that it's right to "divorce" from family that is making you sick and who are hurting you too much, and here in the US it's much easier to do that. In cases like happyflower wrote of, I can't imagine trying to forge a relationship with a parent after such treatment. For milder issues, I think it would be important to try.
In any case, I can see that parents are a huge issue in both cultures, and coming to terms with abuse is critical. I like the idea of forgiving in order to forget or get past the hurt. It is much better to not hurt anymore; if anger is a necessary step on that path, I think it's good to take it, as long as you treat it like a step and don't seethe in anger for the rest of your life. It seems so sad and unhealthy to be angry forever. No one deserves to be continually angry.
I hope you are able to get past your issues!
take care...
jenstar
Posted by Dinah on May 11, 2005, at 20:26:42
In reply to Why not advice to forgive our parents? **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 11, 2005, at 14:02:43
I've emotionally divorced my mom. Which means that she can't hurt me, and I can view her behavior from a distance.
But that doesn't mean we don't see each other or I don't treat her well. She relies on me when she wants to, and rightly so. We talk on the phone a few times a week (down from several times a day, thank my therapist). Our relationship is cordial, and as respectful on my part as I can muster.
We don't fight anywhere near as much as we did before I divorced her.
I wish I could say I harbor no anger. Most of the time that's true, I suppose. But I still have knee jerk reactions to things that remind me of things in my childhood. I'm getting more aware of it though.
I don't think forgiveness it at issue with me, exactly. What I would like to cultivate is more compassion towards her, as I would to someone who wasn't in the family and clearly had some serious problems.
Of course, I'm not really sure about forgiveness. I'm not sure I grasp the concept.
How can I *not* be aware that my mother refused to get my father a hospital bed in his last days because she didn't want her house cluttered while simultaneously piling newspaper to the ceiling in several rooms in the house. How can I not be aware that my mother fought me about hiring a night nurse for my father *while he was in a coma and about to die within days* because she didn't want to spend the money, while knowing that she's spent close to $50,000 on things like marble countertops in the five months since he died.
I might not yell at her or hate her for that every second of every day. But it's hard not to be aware of how monumentally selfish she was.
Fortunately for her, I don't have it in me to treat her as she treated my Dad. At least I don't think I do...
Posted by pinkeye on May 11, 2005, at 21:23:04
In reply to Re: Why not advice to forgive our parents? **trigger** » pinkeye, posted by JenStar on May 11, 2005, at 19:22:46
True. I think a happy medium would be a right thing.
Posted by pinkeye on May 11, 2005, at 21:27:45
In reply to Re: Why not advice to forgive our parents? **trigger** » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 11, 2005, at 20:26:42
hmm.. things like that are really hard to forgive. And especially when they do it when the other person is sick, then it is almmost imposssilbe.
I also feel I will be able to forgive my father everything he did to me - but maybe not for the fact that he treated my mother so cruelly when she complained of pain in her stomach several times. He used to tell her - to go and complain to someone else, and not to him. He used to say it so rudely too. I wonder how he is always perceived as very jovial, and intelligent and very caring by lot of people. I know to my mom, he was never 1 % of what he showed to outside people. That - I don't think I will be able to forgive - ever. And he still thinks my mom doesn't deserve him. She still is very affectionate towards him, takes care of him so very much.. Hmm.. more and more I like my mom.
Posted by Shortelise on May 12, 2005, at 1:09:52
In reply to Why not advice to forgive our parents? **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 11, 2005, at 14:02:43
Pinkeye,
I know it's not *really* funny, but we all said the same thing! I'm surprised you didn't post ALRIGHT ALREADY! I GET IT NOW!!!!
:-)
I felt a little badly about having to examine the behavior of some of the people in my life, knowing that they did the best they knew how, and they weren't trying to hurt me. I felt a little ... disloyal.
ShortE
Posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 13:38:20
In reply to a chorus! » pinkeye, posted by Shortelise on May 12, 2005, at 1:09:52
Yeah I guess I see your points.
And I think what Ts are telling us is atleast to start respsecting ourselves and not take unjustified blame on ourselves.
I think I have some deep issues around that.
I think the key is balance. How much we forgive others, and how much we forgive ourselves.. How much responsibility we take for others and how much we take for ourselves.
I don't think it should be all me, or it should be all people around me.. parents husband etc. Ideally it is right combination.
But it is so hard to get the right combination.
Posted by sunny10 on May 12, 2005, at 14:09:17
In reply to Re: a chorus! » Shortelise, posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 13:38:20
Posted by Susan47 on May 12, 2005, at 22:24:15
In reply to Re: Why not advice to forgive our parents? **trigger** » Tamar, posted by pinkeye on May 11, 2005, at 18:39:56
How many women here have been attacked sexually, sometimes spending what seems like hours trying to get away from a man who was all over us? The first time it happened I bit this guy's tongue so hard I'll bet he bled, I'm sure he was furious about that, it was frightening, he had me backed into the corner okay this is enough. He drove around town for months, after that, haunting me, he was a scary guy. But I mean I'm not complaining, sure it was awful and it ruined my last year of high school and but my grad was the same thing, I ended up being in a really compromising situation, feeling like I had to sleep with this guy, which I did, and it was horrible, horrible just horrible. And the guys in the next town I lived in it happened to me twice there too, I mean, we're talking a two year period at least four times being raped once and assaulted three other times. I'm not complaining just realizing I didn't want to say "rape" until now. And I'm horribly angry at the *sshole who did this to me. All four of them. They were all really ugly, horrible men, dangerous all of them. Thugs.
This is the end of the thread.
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