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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:30:31
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:23:13
That reminds me of my therapist. I would talk, for example, about how I was able to cheer my father up, and present things in a way that he'd be less angry with my mother.
And he'd always add at the end, with emphasis "Your father (or mother) *chose* to let you..."
I think more than anything else in therapy, that had the most effect on me. I grew up thinking that I had way more power than I had, because my parents granted me that power. So since I believed I had the power, I also believed I had the responsibility to use it. So I was constantly anxious about stopping bad things from happening. My therapist pointed out to me that a lot of that power was illusion. That my parents allowed me to think I had that power, they *chose* to grant me that power, but that it was *their* choice to grant it, not mine.
So if your husband or father chooses not to let you please them, it is similarly *their* choice, not yours. And you could wish they made a different choice, but you can't *make* them by being smarter or more giving.
Posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 21:34:35
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:23:13
I think I am decently capable of things.. And perhaps you are right.. nobody can please anyone else. maybe I should kind of look other ways to fulfill myself..
I am really very confused though.
Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:40:04
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 21:25:06
That's a good question.
I think I chose role models a lot growing up, and probably even today. I had horrendous handwriting, so I'd find someone who's handwriting I admired and work until I could copy it, even if their riding had a leftward slant while mine had a natural rightward slant. I'd watch TV and see what looked like a healthy family and use those as role modeling for parenting.
I guess you could say that's not my own identity, but I'm not so sure. You could also look on it as defining what values or qualities I find valuable and striving to incorporate them.
What women do you think are good wives or good daughters. Is there someone in the movies or on TV? A famous person maybe? Or a friend or one of your parent's friends?
What qualities do you think a good wife or daughter has?
Posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 21:46:49
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:40:04
Thanks Dinah.. that actually makes sense. Growing up I never had good role models. In my society, atleast in the circle of my family, women didn't work. And my father wanted me to be a career oriented woman, so I really didn't have anybody to look at and mold myself.
For a long time, I used to have the heroine in one of the novels that my dad like - perhaps you might know - Dagny Taggart in "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand. Because my dad liked her and I was anyway supposed to become like her. So I had her as a role model for a long time.
But I think she is not a good emotional role model, and then once I came to college, and found that was not working, I had to look for some thing else. So I used to observe other students, and had them as a role model. And then I liked Daniel Steel's novels and their heroines, and that is what I mostly try to go by. And I kept Sound of Music heroine for sometime as a role model. But I think most of all, now I like Daniel Steel novels heroines. I like the elegant and poised and good and at the same time emotionally happy and strong woman she portrays. How they overcome difficulties and manage to always find some good family and a career. I like that portrayal a lot.
As to a daughter, I don't know. Not too many that I know of it.
Posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 21:50:12
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:40:04
And I think that is why I desperately sought approval from my ex T.. Because I was always a different person grwoing up, and I never fitted in and I was never unconditionally given approval of.. I think that is perhaps what I wanted from my ex T - to tell me that I am a good person, and most of all a good woman. I think that is why I kept asking him again and again if he liked me, because I didn't like myself, and thought somehow if he liked me, I could substitute that for myself.
Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:51:55
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 21:46:49
You've picked a high standard for yourself. :) I could never manage poised and elegant. grin.
Ok, how would a Danielle Steele heroine react to your husband's behavior? Or your father's?
I think I must have settled for my therapist's in session behavior. Funny thing is from what I've seen of him, my out of session behavior might be closer to his in session behavior than his out of session behavior is. another grin. He might need to imitate himself more often.
Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:58:13
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 21:50:12
Therapist's aren't the best source of that, I think. They probably want us to tell ourselves that, and so don't want to tell us that themselves. Mine says things like "I know it's important for you to be a good girl." But he never says "You *are* a good girl." He does say more specific things. And he'll reassure me that things I did aren't *bad* or that I'm not bad.
Pinkeye, I think you're a good person and a good woman, and I like you. I mean that sincerely.
But it's not enough, is it? I think that's why therapists don't say things like that. Or at least mine doesn't. Because they know it's not enough. They know that the only thing that will be good enough is if one day you catch yourself in a mirror and say "Pinkeye, you're a good person and a good woman. I really like you."
Posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 22:00:19
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:51:55
But he is a man right? Would that suit you?
I would rather pick up a woman role model and go by that, rather than pick up a man.
Already I am so confused - if I pick up a man, I would become even more confused.
Dinah, I need to go home now.. Can I continue this tomorrow? Thanks a lot Dinah for your support. You are always there for me.
Initially, about 2 and half years back, I used to think how you could be going for therapy for 8 years.. But now, I realize how much you have worked on yourself.. and it is really not the years that matter, it is how pleased you are with yourself that matters. And if I could afford it, I would go to life time thearpy myself, maybe go once in a month or something, to keep myself in balance. Because I think my life is somewhat different from other people and I think I want to do lot of different stuff in life - I want to one day go back to India and want to get involved in lot of activities and maybe even adminstration, and it might help me to have a therapist around.
Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 22:01:36
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 22:00:19
Posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 22:02:35
In reply to Goodnight, Pinkeye. :) Sleep well. (nm), posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 22:01:36
Posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 22:08:19
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:58:13
Thanks a lot Dinah.
And what you have said is quite true. But I also think that it is not possible to say that to us ourselves. We need to hear it from people who are important in our lives to be able to say it to ourselves. I think that is where therapists go wrong. They focus too much on making a person grow up, that they forget that nobody can really grow up in vaccum.
For kids who get enough support and validation from parents growing up, they don't need further validation from therapists. But for other people who didn't get it, it is probably a therapists job to give that to the patient, so that the patient can learn it and can then grow up to be able to give it to themselves one day. Without that, I think it is like asking a child who has never received an "I love you" in a life, to be able to say "I love you" and I think it is incredibly hard to achieve for anyone. Kids cannot grow up to be good adults without validation and love from paretns, and when we go to therapy, I think it is very important for the therapists to give that same love and validation.
But it is perhaps not possible for the Ts to go and tell their clients that they like them wihtout really liking them. So that is why they don't do it. And just say that the clients need to be able to give that to themselves. Realistically though, people tend to reflect what they are shown.. and many of us enter into therapy because we were not shown proper love to beign with, and it would make it much easier on the client to learn to love themselves if they know that the therapists love them.
Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 22:10:07
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:58:13
I think that's what they think, but I don't necessarily agree.
I've found that seeing myself reflected in someone else's eyes can be the most unbelievably attitude altering thing in the world. I've found that with my son at times. And I've found it on Babble sometimes. I can think of two times right away where something Tabitha said and something Rod said were close enough to my view of myself, yet with a slight shift in emphasis, that they helped me have a slight but perceptible tilt in self appraisal. Life is probably full of those little tilts. Some positive and some negative.
Hmmm.... My therapist might have given me more than a few of those moments too. Just not with a direct statement about my goodness.
Posted by annierose on May 9, 2005, at 22:18:14
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 22:00:19
Pinkeye -
I know you are sleeping right now, but I just read your conversation with Dinah. I do agree with everything she had to say, and she is so good at communicating.I just wanted to let you know that I feel so badly for all your confusion. Your father did a terrible thing to you. Of course that would confuse you.
I guess what I wish for is for you is to begin making boundaries for yourself. Instead of trying to be a "good wife", try to be true to yourself. Ask yourself, do I want to see movies with my friends? or share a meal in a restaurant, eggs or steak? ... if the answer is "yes", then talk to your husband. You're not a bad wife, but rather, could he be a demanding husband?
All marriages are about compromise. And you don't want to offend your husband, but it sounds like you are bending over backwards for him and losing who you are in the process.I think I understand that you grew up in India, but are now living in the United States? But your husband wants you to go back to some other country and live with his parents? That would be extremely difficult for ANYBODY!! Don't let him make you feel like you are not being a "good daughter-in-law". That is tough!! I don't mean to make judgements, because I don't know you or him personally, but he sounds controlling. That says way more about him, than you. And all these issues with personal boundaries, goes back to your father.
I am glad you are working with another T. I know you miss your T from India, and that is understandable. I hope you have time to develop a new relationship with this one. Good Luck Pinkeye, my heart goes out to you.
Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 22:24:59
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 22:08:19
> But it is perhaps not possible for the Ts to go and tell their clients that they like them wihtout really liking them. So that is why they don't do it.
I don't think that's why they don't do it. I think they don't do it because they don't think they can ever fill a client up with those kind of assurances. Because those assurances are like water on a parched earth. They're just soaked up and the earth is still hungry for more.
They're aiming for a more fundamental change. Like building canals to change the parched earth into fertile producing soil, rather than just watering.
Of course, this might not be true of all therapists. Some may be free with positive words of praise. Mine just isn't.
But it's not because he thinks poorly of me. I knew him when he didn't like me so much. So I know what that feels like, and I know he does like me now. Not the sort of liking where he thinks I'm perfect or anything. But the sort of liking that comes when you can smile when another person reveals their shortcomings and think how very like them that is. Not that he doesn't want me to grow, but he understands me where I am now, and he's ok with me being there.
But the only compliments I ever remember him giving are about old pictures of myself, never the person in the room with him.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 12:45:59
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days., posted by annierose on May 9, 2005, at 22:18:14
That is true Annierose. Though my husband wants to go back to India where my parents are also there, and it is not so bad.
But I think I don't have clear and firm boundaries. I end up taking too much responsibility and then keep silent and keep taking blame on myself more and more, and then let it accumulate and boil over, and one day I burst. And then blame everyone around me. I did that a while back once..
And then I get extremely angry and throw things and behave like mad.. I think from the beginnning I should start enforcing more good boundaries and let people take responsibility for their own feelings instaed of keep on doing things for them.. I have done the same thing again with my husband for the past two years - bent over backwards to accommodate him and please him, and now I am getting very angry.
IT is actually not taking too much responsibility that is the problem, it is taking too much blame and guilt that is more of an issue.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 12:56:11
In reply to P.S. (For tomorrow) I don't necessarily agree, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 22:10:07
That is true.
Also what you said yesterday about not trying to please others is so true. I do that all the time, and I get burnt out, and end up taking it out on them at the end anyway.
I am so afraid of hurting my father's feelings and my husband's feelings and then I just try to accommodate everyone, and then in the end anyway I collapse, and they have no clue what is going on.. Because in their mind everything was going fine and I was happy. But I keep everything inside, and all the anger bursts one day. I should have first refused to marry my husband if I had wanted to stay in the US.. but I just said yes yes, and then finally realized it is too much for me. And I let my dad direct all my actions, and then one day I am blaming him too much.
Maybe from the beginning if I guard my own interests then maybe they will get upset, but they might be able to deal with it..
I am so afraid of making anyone upset, and I just try to please please please, and then one day, it becomes too much for me, and I become ill and stressed, and they have no clue what is going on. I think I picked up this habit as a child, because I couldn't refuse my dad and stand him getting angry at me. I thought he was all right and I was all wrong. Maybe atleast now I should start looking at things a different way. And I thought I was not a good person, and my dad was perfect. But now I know it is not so.
Thanks guys.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 13:22:02
In reply to Re: P.S. (For tomorrow) I don't necessarily agree » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 12:56:11
hmm. now that I think about it, that is the same feedback I get all the time from my managers in work also.. That I don't raise the alarm fast enough if things aren't going well for me.. That I keep trying to manage everything by myself, and then only when it comes out of hand, that I tell them. That I don't escalate issues early enough and I try to manage everything by myself and try to work on behalf of others, and let my deliverables slip sometimes.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 13:28:39
In reply to No good boundaries. » pinkeye, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 13:22:02
And I think I do it, because of this basic undeserving attitude.. Many times, I am smart enough to realize when things aren't going in the correct direction in the work earlier than even others. But I just keep quite. And I blame myself, that I don't know too much..and finally end up taking the blame. It just happened recently also. I was not at all responsible for the failure of something, but ended up taking the blame at the end.
Somehow if I could convince myself that I am as worthy as others, that I am a woman, (not a tom boy or a child), and that I deserve to be happy and don't have to feel guilty or take blame, that men would like me and it is ok to be smart and career oriented, I think I will be completely allright.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 14:49:51
In reply to Re: No good boundaries. » pinkeye, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 13:28:39
Hmm.. I am just realizing, how much happier I could have been.
I am really capable of being happy also.. many times I have been extremely happy and cheerful. And I like interacting with people. I love writing to people in this board.. And generally I get along well with people.. And I can work very well if I want to. And my arthritis also gets lot better when I am happy.
Then why I am just not doing it? Why is it I always need to be suffering? It is so pathetically bad to have all this capacity for happiness and fulfillment, and just let it slide everytime.
I really don't have any bitterness towards my dad or mom or husband.
And I don't have any bitterness or anger towards anyone too much.. I have liked almost all the people I have met so far, maybe except a handful.
I liked my ex T a lot, and I like my current T also.. I don't have any complaints.Then why do I allow myself to get hurt all the time, and just be in a bad mood?
> And I think I do it, because of this basic undeserving attitude..
> Somehow if I could convince myself that I am as worthy as others, that I am a woman, (not a tom boy or a child), and that I deserve to be happy and don't have to feel guilty or take blame, that men would like me and it is ok to be smart and career oriented, I think I will be completely allright.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 14:55:24
In reply to I could be so much happier. » pinkeye, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 14:49:51
I just realized the answer to it.. except maybe myself.. I like everyone else, other than myself, and I don't have bitterness towards anyone else, other than myself..
I don't hold anyone else responsible, but I hold myself extremely responsible, and I generally don't blame others, but I blame myself all the time.
I have hurt myself way too much more than I have hurt anyone else.. and actually I haven't really hurt anyone that much.
Even when my dad punished me that I needed to die, and asked me to kind of hang myself, I accepted it, and I thought I deserved to die. That day, I really thought I was going to die, and that I deserved it, and I didn't protest. I cried, but went ahead with the motions.. I could have just ran out of the house or something.. I didn't do it. I never protested against my dad. I could have told him I didn't like to hug him all that much, that I wanted to sleep separately. I could have asked him to stop shouting at me. I didn't do it.
> I really don't have any bitterness towards my dad or mom or husband.
> And I don't have any bitterness or anger towards anyone too much.. I have liked almost all the people I have met so far, maybe except a handful.
> I liked my ex T a lot, and I like my current T also.. I don't have any complaints.
>
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 15:13:20
In reply to Re: I could be so much happier. **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 14:55:24
And I have taken lot of shame at the way how I served as a kind of pseudo wife to my dad.. I thought somehow I made him treat me like that.. I thought I wanted to have a relationship like that with my dad, but I know I have total repulsion for that kind of relationship. And I could have told my dad to stop - to stop discussing everything with me, to stop leaning on me for support, to not treat me as himself and make me do stuff that he didn't do himself. I could have told him to stop and that I am not going to take all the bull**** anymore. I could have told him I didn't like him touching me all that much, that I would prefer my own private space.
But maybe he didn't let me, I remember I wanted to sleep separately, but then he said he was just my dad.. And my mom also went with that.. she didn't protest either. Many times, I would be so ashamed if my mom or some servants come inside the room and I was with my father - all the time sitting on his lap or hugging him etc, but I didn't protest. I could have said I really really didn't like it, and he is a good man, he would have listened. In all likelihood he was very innocent, and he thought he was just being cute or affectionate, but I ddin't like it one bit. Instead I kept silent, but started becoming too fat, because I didn;t want to be attractive .. I think it was all due to the shame I felt at my own body and my relationship with my dad. And my mother didn't matter at all for my dad.. it was all the time me me me. In some ways, I think I took on that role to protect my mother.. because once he realized that I was turning out to be exactly what he wanted, then he started mellowing down on my mom. He didn't scold her too much after that. And I think my mom was just happy to have him off her back, and she didn't protest either.
And I wanted to wear more girly kind of clothes, and I wanted to have long hair, and I wanted to have sleep overs with my cousins, and wanted to be more close to friends, and my dad didn't let me do any of it. Till I was 15 or 16, I hadn't stayed away from both my parents even for a day.
I kept silent all that time, for so many years, and it is too late now.
Posted by annierose on May 10, 2005, at 15:38:56
In reply to Re: I could be so much happier. **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 15:13:20
Pinkeye -
How your father treated you, is not your fault. I know this sounds hard, but he was cruel. He abused his privilege as your father, and blurred the boundaries into a completely different type of proper father/daughter relationship. You are not to blame for his behavior. Any person living under those circumstances would have troubles later on. That is certain.Please continue your hard work in therapy. You need to understand that it's not your fault. It's okay to be angry with a situation that wasn't within your control.
Setting personal boundaries must be very difficult for you. Is your husband aware of your relationship with your father? I hope you find the courage to start finding out what "pinkeye" wants and needs to live a more fullfilling life, in whatever country she lives in.
Do you ever discuss sexual matters with your T? I find your husbands refusal of sex interesting.
Baby-steps. Sometimes when I decide I need to start acting a certain way, I want to drastically change everything right now! I am learning, a more realistic and lasting approach is work on these changes more slowly. My husband has more time to get accustomed to the new "Annie" and how things are going to be from here on out. And I have more time to practice the new behavior. So it really does become a part of who I am.
Right now I'm working on not taking my husband's "garbage" when he gets angry. It's amazing that he is really starting to get it, that his tone and language are no longer acceptable, and it needs to stop. This change is taking close to a year ... so time is important.
I feel so much pain for you and your situation. I would like to ask your father, "what were you thinking?"
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 16:09:31
In reply to Re: I could be so much happier. **trigger** » pinkeye, posted by annierose on May 10, 2005, at 15:38:56
Thanks Annie for your thoughts. I wasn;'t really abused sexually.. That would have been a different story. If I had that, I would have killed my dad.
But I think he thought he was just being very warm and cuddly cuddly and treating me like a doll kind of thing. He is basically a very good man, and I think he was completely confused himself. But I do know he could have known better. he was a doctor for christsake, and I remember very clearly, my grandfather and many others telling my dad many times not to touch a girl child so much.. He used to even hug me in front of everyone, and hold my hands, and kiss me, and make me sit on his lap, even when I was 14 -15, and many people would be there.. I am pretty sure he was just very innocent.And I also would have been ok with it, if it just happened a few times.. But just that it was going on day after day, for years after years, I think that was the problem. And I couldn't refuse it, because I also realized that he was just being very affectionate.. Now I realize it was totally inappropriate way to show an affection. If I had a son, who is past 13 - 14, I wouldn't touch him so much. I wouldn't ask him to sleep hugging me and all that.
It was kind of mild physical abuse, and full blown emotional abuse.
My new T knows it, but my ex T didn't. I couldn't bring myself to tell him. Though, I might be able to tell him now, if I had a chance. Kind of tell him everything and if he forgives me, I might be able to forgive myself. I don't know.
My husband is into some religious cult and fanaticism.. But he is becoming more mellow now, and they wouldn't let him use birth controls, because it is agaisnt God or soemthing, so there is some problem. But I am really not all that concerned about it now. I am fine with the way things are.
Posted by Dinah on May 10, 2005, at 16:54:48
In reply to Re: I could be so much happier. **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 15:13:20
It isn't too late now. You can't change the past, but you can change the future.
I brought a few posts that I had written on this thread to therapy today. I told him that I hadn't even really realized that I had absorbed those things and truly believed them until I wrote them to you. I asked him if he was proud of me for my glacial progress. :) And he said that he was proud of me, and that he also felt good to be a therapist at that moment.
So if someone as stubborn and hardheaded as I am can change, you certainly can. A good start would be to sit down and start figuring out where you want your boundaries to lie.
And yes, they don't respond all that well at first. But I was surprised to find that it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. My mother and father both loved me and wanted to maintain a relationship with me, even if it wasn't on the terms they would prefer.
Posted by Shortelise on May 10, 2005, at 17:24:19
In reply to Re: I could be so much happier. **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 15:13:20
There it is again, looking back with our adult minds and thinking with our adult minds what we could have done back then.
We didn't do those things, couldn't do those things because we were CHILDREN.
We didn't know what would happen if we rejected the "love" we were being given.
We didn't know what would happen to us if we said no.
You were a child, Pinkeye, not the adult you are now.
I am sorry for that child. What a crap childhood.
SHortE
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