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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 19:40:18
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 19:07:40
"I am just too weak and stupid and I don't have the capacity."
You are not stupid or weak. I think most people would feel the way you're feeling in the same situation. Be angry at the situation for being overwhelming, not at yourself for being quite naturally overwhelmed.
Posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 20:24:19
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days., posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 19:40:18
why is life so hard? lot of people don't take any responsibility at all and fool around a lot, and life is good for them - like my dad - he keeps 3 servants, and is able to get everything taken care of for him.. first his father, and then my mom and then me.. and he is able to get by with taht.. and he doesn't have any illness to cope up with. and he hasn't really done anything even slightly challenging in his life..
I am trying to be very responsible and sincere, and genuine, and I get very hard problems.. I get all these chronic illness. and I am feeling like everybody around me expects me to take care of them.. and I am not capable of it. My husband also makes me feel guilty a lot.. if I don't cook one day, he starves himself the whole day - he won't eat out becuase it is not in his religious thing, and he makes me feel very guilty. And for 2 years he has been making me feel so guilty about everything - eating out, watching movies, talking to other men in office, wearing make up, even sex.. I feel suffocated, and everything is a sin.
And I feel the more I try to accommodate others, the more they are demanding of me. And the only thing I depend on them is when my arthritis gets bad.. And at the end of the day, everyone makes it look like it is all my fault, that I am the weakest person and they are protecting me. And both my dad and my husband make me feel so very guilty.. they both have some lofty ideals, and they keep imposing them on me.. and I am always the middle man, and they are 180 degrees opposite ideals. my father says don't, my husband says do.. my father says do, my husband says don't. And who am I to please? And I have to please them both.
Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 20:40:26
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 20:24:19
Pinkeye, have you talked to your therapist about this? If not, could you bring in your post?
I often find that obsessions distract me from the very real things in my life that are painful, even if the obsessions are also painful.
You are taking way too much on yourself, and you'll make yourself ill. I had a lot of the same problems with my parents before therapy. (Believe it or not from how I talk about them now, they are no problem at all to me now as compared to before therapy.) My therapist helped me learn to create boundaries. To sort out what was their stuff from what was my stuff. If you don't cook as regularly as your husband might wish, he won't die. He could learn to cook himself. He could choose to have fun learning to cook. Instead he chooses to starve himself. That's his choice, and has little to do with what you do or don't cook.
You don't have to please either of them. You have to decide in your own mind what a wife or daughter should be, and then you can please yourself by living up to your own reasonable expectations. Because you *can't* please other people. You just can't. Because if you try to please other people, the results are out of your hands. It is *their* decision whether to be pleased or not. You can't *make* them be pleased. You could do everything wonderful, and they could *choose* to be displeased. And you could be as horrid as you like and they could *choose* to be pleased.
Decide what you need to do to satisfy yourself as a good person, and let those be your boundaries. If you *choose* to do more, let it be your choice, knowing that you are doing more.
And this comes from someone who truly enjoys pleasing others. So it's not that I think it's an unworthy goal. It's just an impossible one. So when I choose to please others, it's a gift, and a playful part of me. And I know that there are those who will be pleased and give me the response I enjoy, and there will be those who won't be pleased. And that's ok. Because it has more to do with their ability to be pleased than my ability to please.
You just need to find a few people in your life, friends or therapist or us, who are much easier to please than your husband or father, and can give you the feedback about being pleasing that you quite understandably wish to recieve.
Posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 21:04:53
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 20:40:26
Thank you Dinah.. I am also realizing more and more that, that is perhaps the problem. My new therapist also says the same thing - that I take far too much responsibility and blame.
And I want to be a good daughter to my fahter, and a good wife to my husband, and a good person and woman myself, and taht is why I try to do my best. But I think both my father and my husband have the same problem - they are both extremely fanatic and dogmatic in their principles, and out of the world views.. and it is just impossible for me to please them by living in this world. I had the same problem with my dad growing up.. his demands of me was way out of the world.. I was a pretty normal child, in fact everyone used to say I was one of the best kids. I was very well behaved, studied well, never was naughty, and still I was not enough for my dad. He used to scold me and punish me.. even when I was in college, he slapped me one day because I was not learning stocks. He wanted me to invest in stocks side by side while I was studying, and I was jsut not into it, because he lost all the money by playing stocks and he was imposing that on me even after losing so much money. And I was good at studies, was in the 90 th percentile, and I got a job in a good company while I was in the final year in campus recruitment. And yet he slaps me for not learning stocks. And I have started earning and living on my own from when I was 20.. and haven't depended on my parents till now and ever since I came to US, I have been supporting them also, but even now he says that I should learn stock market.. he is very upset with me, because I am not learning it.
And my husband has the same pattern. I try to please him a lot - he wanted me to give up eating meat, I gave up, then he wanted me to give up eating eggs also, I gave up, he watned me to give up eating onion and garlic, and eating out in restaurants, and I gave everything up. And no movies, no going out.. even if we go to friends place, I cook and pack dinner or lunch for him, because he won't eat anywhere.. And he wanted me not to have sex with him, I gave up that also. For the last 3 years, we haven't had real intercourse.. only some kind of making up stuff, because he is against birth controls and we don't want to have kids now.. I agreed to all that. And now he wants me to go and live with his parents, and I don't want to live in the same house. I would like to live in separate house in the same street or nearby, and we can visit them everyday. But he is saying I am not beign a good daughter-in-law.
Anyway, I am just getting so bogged down with meeting everybody's demands. I think you are right.. you just cannot fulfill and please everyone.
But somehow I feel I am capable, and I should be able to do everything.. and I blame myself, and I am confused.
Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:23:13
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 21:04:53
I think you're probably very capable. And very capable of doing many things.
But you're trying to do the thing that no one is capable of. You can't choose how others will react. That is totally and completely in their power.
Posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 21:25:06
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 20:40:26
But how do you know you are a good person? And how do you know if you are being a good woman? That is why I go to extreme extents to be there for others.. to be a good person and a woman.
For soem reason, I always believed I was not a good person - from childhood I remember somehow I always thought of myself as not good. Everybody used to say I was good and nice.. But I always thought of myself as being bad, and arrogant.. in fact when I was in college, during the farewell, I was voted as the nicest person in the class. I never understood shy.
And I never know if I am feminine or being a woman. I always have trouble understanding that.. and my new T says that was caused by the way my fahter treated me - he intiially treated me like a tom boy, and always made me cut my hair like men, and wouldn't let me dress well - not wear jewellery or anything. And he would always make me wear very loose clothes, so there would be no shape.. And he used to say I was too smart for any man.. that nobody would like me, and that if I get married they would abuse me and slap me etc etc. He even used to kind of playfully slap me many times, saying that I needed to learn to be able to take it, becuase my future husband would beat me up anyway. All sorts of conflicts like these.
And I used to feel so ashamed about sleeping with him, he used to sleep on top of me, even when I was 14 or 15.. and made me sleep on top of him several times. And I would always help him dress himself, and would always be with him.. Even if I was playing with my friends, he would come and ask me to come with him and play with him. Several times in front of others, he used to carry me and hug me, and hold my hand, and I used to feel so damn ashamed. I thought he meant well, I still think he meant well. But I was extremely confused about my own body.. and I think those are the times you start developing your sexuality, and he should have withdrawn himself from being too close to me, and let me explore other ways of expressing it. Instead I feel he used it all to satisfy himself and didn't keep the boundaries with me. And I feel so very ashamed of my body even now.
And I think all these created huge conflicts and confusion and shame.. and I really don't know what it means to be a good woman and I tend to take all the blame on myself.
Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:30:31
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:23:13
That reminds me of my therapist. I would talk, for example, about how I was able to cheer my father up, and present things in a way that he'd be less angry with my mother.
And he'd always add at the end, with emphasis "Your father (or mother) *chose* to let you..."
I think more than anything else in therapy, that had the most effect on me. I grew up thinking that I had way more power than I had, because my parents granted me that power. So since I believed I had the power, I also believed I had the responsibility to use it. So I was constantly anxious about stopping bad things from happening. My therapist pointed out to me that a lot of that power was illusion. That my parents allowed me to think I had that power, they *chose* to grant me that power, but that it was *their* choice to grant it, not mine.
So if your husband or father chooses not to let you please them, it is similarly *their* choice, not yours. And you could wish they made a different choice, but you can't *make* them by being smarter or more giving.
Posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 21:34:35
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:23:13
I think I am decently capable of things.. And perhaps you are right.. nobody can please anyone else. maybe I should kind of look other ways to fulfill myself..
I am really very confused though.
Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:40:04
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 21:25:06
That's a good question.
I think I chose role models a lot growing up, and probably even today. I had horrendous handwriting, so I'd find someone who's handwriting I admired and work until I could copy it, even if their riding had a leftward slant while mine had a natural rightward slant. I'd watch TV and see what looked like a healthy family and use those as role modeling for parenting.
I guess you could say that's not my own identity, but I'm not so sure. You could also look on it as defining what values or qualities I find valuable and striving to incorporate them.
What women do you think are good wives or good daughters. Is there someone in the movies or on TV? A famous person maybe? Or a friend or one of your parent's friends?
What qualities do you think a good wife or daughter has?
Posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 21:46:49
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:40:04
Thanks Dinah.. that actually makes sense. Growing up I never had good role models. In my society, atleast in the circle of my family, women didn't work. And my father wanted me to be a career oriented woman, so I really didn't have anybody to look at and mold myself.
For a long time, I used to have the heroine in one of the novels that my dad like - perhaps you might know - Dagny Taggart in "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand. Because my dad liked her and I was anyway supposed to become like her. So I had her as a role model for a long time.
But I think she is not a good emotional role model, and then once I came to college, and found that was not working, I had to look for some thing else. So I used to observe other students, and had them as a role model. And then I liked Daniel Steel's novels and their heroines, and that is what I mostly try to go by. And I kept Sound of Music heroine for sometime as a role model. But I think most of all, now I like Daniel Steel novels heroines. I like the elegant and poised and good and at the same time emotionally happy and strong woman she portrays. How they overcome difficulties and manage to always find some good family and a career. I like that portrayal a lot.
As to a daughter, I don't know. Not too many that I know of it.
Posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 21:50:12
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:40:04
And I think that is why I desperately sought approval from my ex T.. Because I was always a different person grwoing up, and I never fitted in and I was never unconditionally given approval of.. I think that is perhaps what I wanted from my ex T - to tell me that I am a good person, and most of all a good woman. I think that is why I kept asking him again and again if he liked me, because I didn't like myself, and thought somehow if he liked me, I could substitute that for myself.
Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:51:55
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 21:46:49
You've picked a high standard for yourself. :) I could never manage poised and elegant. grin.
Ok, how would a Danielle Steele heroine react to your husband's behavior? Or your father's?
I think I must have settled for my therapist's in session behavior. Funny thing is from what I've seen of him, my out of session behavior might be closer to his in session behavior than his out of session behavior is. another grin. He might need to imitate himself more often.
Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:58:13
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 21:50:12
Therapist's aren't the best source of that, I think. They probably want us to tell ourselves that, and so don't want to tell us that themselves. Mine says things like "I know it's important for you to be a good girl." But he never says "You *are* a good girl." He does say more specific things. And he'll reassure me that things I did aren't *bad* or that I'm not bad.
Pinkeye, I think you're a good person and a good woman, and I like you. I mean that sincerely.
But it's not enough, is it? I think that's why therapists don't say things like that. Or at least mine doesn't. Because they know it's not enough. They know that the only thing that will be good enough is if one day you catch yourself in a mirror and say "Pinkeye, you're a good person and a good woman. I really like you."
Posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 22:00:19
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:51:55
But he is a man right? Would that suit you?
I would rather pick up a woman role model and go by that, rather than pick up a man.
Already I am so confused - if I pick up a man, I would become even more confused.
Dinah, I need to go home now.. Can I continue this tomorrow? Thanks a lot Dinah for your support. You are always there for me.
Initially, about 2 and half years back, I used to think how you could be going for therapy for 8 years.. But now, I realize how much you have worked on yourself.. and it is really not the years that matter, it is how pleased you are with yourself that matters. And if I could afford it, I would go to life time thearpy myself, maybe go once in a month or something, to keep myself in balance. Because I think my life is somewhat different from other people and I think I want to do lot of different stuff in life - I want to one day go back to India and want to get involved in lot of activities and maybe even adminstration, and it might help me to have a therapist around.
Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 22:01:36
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 22:00:19
Posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 22:02:35
In reply to Goodnight, Pinkeye. :) Sleep well. (nm), posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 22:01:36
Posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 22:08:19
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:58:13
Thanks a lot Dinah.
And what you have said is quite true. But I also think that it is not possible to say that to us ourselves. We need to hear it from people who are important in our lives to be able to say it to ourselves. I think that is where therapists go wrong. They focus too much on making a person grow up, that they forget that nobody can really grow up in vaccum.
For kids who get enough support and validation from parents growing up, they don't need further validation from therapists. But for other people who didn't get it, it is probably a therapists job to give that to the patient, so that the patient can learn it and can then grow up to be able to give it to themselves one day. Without that, I think it is like asking a child who has never received an "I love you" in a life, to be able to say "I love you" and I think it is incredibly hard to achieve for anyone. Kids cannot grow up to be good adults without validation and love from paretns, and when we go to therapy, I think it is very important for the therapists to give that same love and validation.
But it is perhaps not possible for the Ts to go and tell their clients that they like them wihtout really liking them. So that is why they don't do it. And just say that the clients need to be able to give that to themselves. Realistically though, people tend to reflect what they are shown.. and many of us enter into therapy because we were not shown proper love to beign with, and it would make it much easier on the client to learn to love themselves if they know that the therapists love them.
Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 22:10:07
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:58:13
I think that's what they think, but I don't necessarily agree.
I've found that seeing myself reflected in someone else's eyes can be the most unbelievably attitude altering thing in the world. I've found that with my son at times. And I've found it on Babble sometimes. I can think of two times right away where something Tabitha said and something Rod said were close enough to my view of myself, yet with a slight shift in emphasis, that they helped me have a slight but perceptible tilt in self appraisal. Life is probably full of those little tilts. Some positive and some negative.
Hmmm.... My therapist might have given me more than a few of those moments too. Just not with a direct statement about my goodness.
Posted by annierose on May 9, 2005, at 22:18:14
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 22:00:19
Pinkeye -
I know you are sleeping right now, but I just read your conversation with Dinah. I do agree with everything she had to say, and she is so good at communicating.I just wanted to let you know that I feel so badly for all your confusion. Your father did a terrible thing to you. Of course that would confuse you.
I guess what I wish for is for you is to begin making boundaries for yourself. Instead of trying to be a "good wife", try to be true to yourself. Ask yourself, do I want to see movies with my friends? or share a meal in a restaurant, eggs or steak? ... if the answer is "yes", then talk to your husband. You're not a bad wife, but rather, could he be a demanding husband?
All marriages are about compromise. And you don't want to offend your husband, but it sounds like you are bending over backwards for him and losing who you are in the process.I think I understand that you grew up in India, but are now living in the United States? But your husband wants you to go back to some other country and live with his parents? That would be extremely difficult for ANYBODY!! Don't let him make you feel like you are not being a "good daughter-in-law". That is tough!! I don't mean to make judgements, because I don't know you or him personally, but he sounds controlling. That says way more about him, than you. And all these issues with personal boundaries, goes back to your father.
I am glad you are working with another T. I know you miss your T from India, and that is understandable. I hope you have time to develop a new relationship with this one. Good Luck Pinkeye, my heart goes out to you.
Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 22:24:59
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 22:08:19
> But it is perhaps not possible for the Ts to go and tell their clients that they like them wihtout really liking them. So that is why they don't do it.
I don't think that's why they don't do it. I think they don't do it because they don't think they can ever fill a client up with those kind of assurances. Because those assurances are like water on a parched earth. They're just soaked up and the earth is still hungry for more.
They're aiming for a more fundamental change. Like building canals to change the parched earth into fertile producing soil, rather than just watering.
Of course, this might not be true of all therapists. Some may be free with positive words of praise. Mine just isn't.
But it's not because he thinks poorly of me. I knew him when he didn't like me so much. So I know what that feels like, and I know he does like me now. Not the sort of liking where he thinks I'm perfect or anything. But the sort of liking that comes when you can smile when another person reveals their shortcomings and think how very like them that is. Not that he doesn't want me to grow, but he understands me where I am now, and he's ok with me being there.
But the only compliments I ever remember him giving are about old pictures of myself, never the person in the room with him.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 12:45:59
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days., posted by annierose on May 9, 2005, at 22:18:14
That is true Annierose. Though my husband wants to go back to India where my parents are also there, and it is not so bad.
But I think I don't have clear and firm boundaries. I end up taking too much responsibility and then keep silent and keep taking blame on myself more and more, and then let it accumulate and boil over, and one day I burst. And then blame everyone around me. I did that a while back once..
And then I get extremely angry and throw things and behave like mad.. I think from the beginnning I should start enforcing more good boundaries and let people take responsibility for their own feelings instaed of keep on doing things for them.. I have done the same thing again with my husband for the past two years - bent over backwards to accommodate him and please him, and now I am getting very angry.
IT is actually not taking too much responsibility that is the problem, it is taking too much blame and guilt that is more of an issue.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 12:56:11
In reply to P.S. (For tomorrow) I don't necessarily agree, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 22:10:07
That is true.
Also what you said yesterday about not trying to please others is so true. I do that all the time, and I get burnt out, and end up taking it out on them at the end anyway.
I am so afraid of hurting my father's feelings and my husband's feelings and then I just try to accommodate everyone, and then in the end anyway I collapse, and they have no clue what is going on.. Because in their mind everything was going fine and I was happy. But I keep everything inside, and all the anger bursts one day. I should have first refused to marry my husband if I had wanted to stay in the US.. but I just said yes yes, and then finally realized it is too much for me. And I let my dad direct all my actions, and then one day I am blaming him too much.
Maybe from the beginning if I guard my own interests then maybe they will get upset, but they might be able to deal with it..
I am so afraid of making anyone upset, and I just try to please please please, and then one day, it becomes too much for me, and I become ill and stressed, and they have no clue what is going on. I think I picked up this habit as a child, because I couldn't refuse my dad and stand him getting angry at me. I thought he was all right and I was all wrong. Maybe atleast now I should start looking at things a different way. And I thought I was not a good person, and my dad was perfect. But now I know it is not so.
Thanks guys.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 13:22:02
In reply to Re: P.S. (For tomorrow) I don't necessarily agree » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 12:56:11
hmm. now that I think about it, that is the same feedback I get all the time from my managers in work also.. That I don't raise the alarm fast enough if things aren't going well for me.. That I keep trying to manage everything by myself, and then only when it comes out of hand, that I tell them. That I don't escalate issues early enough and I try to manage everything by myself and try to work on behalf of others, and let my deliverables slip sometimes.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 13:28:39
In reply to No good boundaries. » pinkeye, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 13:22:02
And I think I do it, because of this basic undeserving attitude.. Many times, I am smart enough to realize when things aren't going in the correct direction in the work earlier than even others. But I just keep quite. And I blame myself, that I don't know too much..and finally end up taking the blame. It just happened recently also. I was not at all responsible for the failure of something, but ended up taking the blame at the end.
Somehow if I could convince myself that I am as worthy as others, that I am a woman, (not a tom boy or a child), and that I deserve to be happy and don't have to feel guilty or take blame, that men would like me and it is ok to be smart and career oriented, I think I will be completely allright.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 14:49:51
In reply to Re: No good boundaries. » pinkeye, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 13:28:39
Hmm.. I am just realizing, how much happier I could have been.
I am really capable of being happy also.. many times I have been extremely happy and cheerful. And I like interacting with people. I love writing to people in this board.. And generally I get along well with people.. And I can work very well if I want to. And my arthritis also gets lot better when I am happy.
Then why I am just not doing it? Why is it I always need to be suffering? It is so pathetically bad to have all this capacity for happiness and fulfillment, and just let it slide everytime.
I really don't have any bitterness towards my dad or mom or husband.
And I don't have any bitterness or anger towards anyone too much.. I have liked almost all the people I have met so far, maybe except a handful.
I liked my ex T a lot, and I like my current T also.. I don't have any complaints.Then why do I allow myself to get hurt all the time, and just be in a bad mood?
> And I think I do it, because of this basic undeserving attitude..
> Somehow if I could convince myself that I am as worthy as others, that I am a woman, (not a tom boy or a child), and that I deserve to be happy and don't have to feel guilty or take blame, that men would like me and it is ok to be smart and career oriented, I think I will be completely allright.
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