![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 99. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2003, at 8:17:30
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on April 21, 2003, at 7:20:41
Chuckle. He definitely does have openings, and the more cynical side of me wonders about my steady income and his attitude.
He does see the danger of too much dependency, not as much as I would like, but he does. And he both does and doesn't think it's healthy. He thinks it's very healthy as a stage in someone who doesn't trust easily. Not so healthy if it continues indefinitely. After a few disastrous attempts to convey that to me, we've agreed on this "It's okay for me to alwyas feel safe with him, but he hopes that I will also have other ways of making myself feel safe."
I must confess that before I broached the subject with him, when it was still just an internal fear corroding our therapy, I did tons of research on supportive therapy. When it was indicated, how it was conducted, etc. Then when the time was right and he brought up "growth", I brought up seeing therapy as insulin to a diabetic, and thought of therapy as a lifelong adjunct to meds to control a lifelong condition. I asked him if growth was necessary or if just not getting worse was a worthwhile goal. We agreed that not getting worse was a fine goal, so long as growth was also a goal.
The funny thing was that once that fear was removed, and my overwhelming fear of abandonment was thus assuaged, progress started happening. And continues to happen. Our therapy was able to move forward into other issues rather than just percolating on abandonment fears (altho they crop up and we have to go back and work on them from time to time). I don't *feel* better yet for this new work, and sometimes I feel less stable overall. And he's quit expressing his frustration that he doesn't seem able to help me, or as your therapist said, that he is doing all the work.
How does your therapist feel about supportive therapy. Is it just the frequency of sessions that concerns her? Won't that wax and wane with what's going on in therapy and in the rest of your life. It sounds as if you've had some trauma lately. Two friends attempting suicide? A separation from your husband? I'm going twice a week now, which seems to allow us to wade into deeper therapeutic waters than once a week. But I certainly hope I won't always be going twice a week.
Do you feel like you can transfer the transference if need be to another therapist? There are several of us here in long term therapy so it can't be that all therapists are opposed. There's my problem. Even if I can obtain therapy for the rest of my life, I don't see that as useful. I do want forever therapy. :) He's the second therapist I've had, but the first I really did therapy with, and I'm somehow convinced that he's magic. :))
Posted by fallsfall on April 21, 2003, at 10:22:03
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2003, at 8:17:30
My therapist still worries that I'm not getting better (and that is a reasonable worry). 18 months ago I did a bad thing. I typed her name in a search engine and collected some information about her (personal) life from there and other sources. I ended up with her address and phone number, email address, her husband and kids' names, her AIM screenname. I put her on my buddy list and watched when she was online. She almost threw me out. I understand why. 2 months ago, I searched on her name again. I read a couple of articles she had written, and then found a committee she was on - and her name was a link. I followed the link, and it was email - with her email address again. I closed the windows and said "I'm not going there". That was the incident that started the current crisis. I was searching on her to find a picture, or something that would help me feel connected. I was feeling needy that day and there was a snowstorm so I was afraid that our session would be cancelled. We had the session and I told her what I did (she asked why I told her - hello! I tell you everything). She said she wasn't mad (the professional side of her), but I could tell that she really was (the personal side of her - she has since agreed that she was mad). Two weeks later she talked about throwing me out because I was too dependent. I (somehow) lived through that week. She consulted with my pdoc (across the hall) and decided I could stay. Now I'm afraid to talk to her because I don't want to make her mad. We're working on that. It's like she's a completely different person. I am willing to work on the dependency stuff. I know that has to be done. But between her coldness now and threats of going from weekly to every other week, I am a basket case.
I left my husband 4 years ago. Best thing I ever did. So that is pretty even now.
All of my friends have mental illnesses. Even when I think I'm making friends with someone normal, they turn out to have BiPolar. But the 2 friends who attempted are 2 of my 3 best friends (the 3rd has been in therapy for 14 years). For each of them I am their best friend. They both were really serious and wanted to succeed. Last week one of them and I took another friend to the hospital, we visited her yesterday. My therapist keeps telling me to get some healthy friends. But that takes a lot of effort (and I don't have a lot of energy). So, yeah there is a bit of stress in my life. The funny thing is that I don't feel like I can unburden myself on these friends, partly because they are having their own issues. They haven't turned me away - I haven't asked (but I am starting to ask now). I need to work on that.
I went to a couple of groups 8 years ago, and when this first started going down with my therapist I went to see one of my old group leaders. I wasn't crazy about her group - it was pretty confrontational, and I was really fragile, and she didn't step in at all - but I liked the individual sessions getting ready to join the group, and she gave me some sessions when my therapist was on vacation. It was wonderful to see her. She was very helpful, I felt cared for. I was frantic when I saw her and she calmed me down. So yes, I think I could live with a different therapist. And some days I think that would be easier than living through this with mine. I feel like she's not there for me, so it is like the dependency has been broken, but I have to deal with it by myself because I "don't" have a therapist.
I feel a little better today than I have been feeling. But I see her tomorrow.
I appreciate your conversation.
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2003, at 12:01:09
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on April 21, 2003, at 10:22:03
You know, what you did was not so terrible. It wasn't the wisest choice and I wouldn't suggest you do it again, but you didn't hurt anyone. Have you ever read "In Session: The Bond Between Women and Their Therapists" by Deborah Lott? Similar things aren't all that uncommon.
And to be angry with you for making the right choice the second time it came up wasn't fair. You chose not to go there again, and she should have been pleased with you. I *know* looking up our therapists/pdocs/etc. on google isn't a sin.
There was a woman who posted here a while back who had found out her therapist's address and driven by her house. The therapist was really mad at her about it. I asked my therapist about it at the time. I know he was wondering if I had asked because I had done it (I hadn't). But he said that it was perfectly normal for people who are feeling distressed and who are attached to their therapists to want some further connection with them. To want to know what they are like, where they live, etc. He said that although he wouldn't be pleased about it, he wouldn't be angry either if all she did was drive by his house.
I don't know. I do think that it was wise of you not to do what you did the first time, put her on your friends list and all. But I think maybe she should give you some credit for that... And for being honest with you. That couldn't have been easy for you.
I understand why therapists would be uneasy about their personal information and their personal lives. But I liked my therapist's understanding and matter of fact attitude about why a patient might do it.
I'm fortunate in that I don't want anything from him outside of therapy (and in fact ran like a startled hare when I accidentally heard him in a bookstore once). And I understand the desire for a photo too, although I barely remember what my therapist looks like and a photo would be no use to me. He made a relaxation tape for me though, as a link to him when he wasn't around. And I call his answering machine sometimes just to hear his voice and feel connected. He knows and is completely ok with that, even encourages it.
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2003, at 12:02:31
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on April 21, 2003, at 10:22:03
Posted by noa on April 21, 2003, at 12:41:33
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on April 21, 2003, at 10:22:03
Fallsfall,
I have difficulty "getting" why a therapist would stop therapy or make sessions less frequent because of dependency issues. It makes no sense to me.
I think you need a therapist who isn't threatened by your dependency issues.
If you or she are concerned that you will go too far in your probing about her, then she can make a contract with you about that, and about not acting on urges to violate any boundaries. I don't know if you went beyond what is in the public domain in your search. If in the public domain, it isn't a problem, but if you "hacked" a bit, then a contract could include not doing that. But in my mind, whatever is in public domain is just that--public.
When I was not doing so well, my therapist suggested twice per week sessions. I've been going 2x week for a few years now. I find it really helps with continuity. I don't feel so afraid to open up hard issues because it isn't so long in between sessions. I am not sure how long I'll continue with the 2x week, but for now it works.
I never felt quite as dependent on this therapist as my first therapist whom I saw for 10 years in another city. But that dependency dwindled over time. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to make the move to another city!
Earlier in my therapy with current therapist, I was really curious just like you. I did name search on line and only found one reference, to a consulting firm owned by his wife, that he was listed as part of. I also looked up his home address in the phone book and drove by the house. But of course, I told him that right away. He wasn't phased at all. I think I drove by one more time later that year, but then the urge was gone.
My therapist is fairly open about his life, which is different than my previous therapist. But he has good boundaries. I think when his wife was ill and dying, it necessitated his giving some information. But there are also times when I will pick up on something in what he say-- a subtle cue or something and react to it and he will reflect and "own" his part in it, like if maybe he was unintentionally conveying a subtle message or something, and we'll process it. Sometimes that may involve revealing something about himself. But he doesn't reveal that much.
I guess I feel some dependency but not a lot.
Anyway, I really think you need a therapist who can handle your dependency issues.
Posted by judy1 on April 21, 2003, at 13:59:42
In reply to Re: Forever therapy, posted by noa on April 21, 2003, at 12:41:33
I really have to agree with noa- I think you would do a lot better with a therapist who isn't afraid of dependency but has boundaries to protect you both. you mentioned feeling comforted by the 'group leader'- perhaps you could try a few sessions with her and eventually switch over your care. I can't imagine getting very far in therapy if you feel your therapist is 'mad' at you. I have my pdoc's home phone # and e-mail address- I don't abuse either but I know he is there for me and that is enough. I really can't stress how important boundaries are, and I think Dinah's book suggestion was an excellent one. I wish you all the best-judy
Posted by fallsfall on April 23, 2003, at 12:10:14
In reply to Re: Forever therapy- fallsfall, posted by judy1 on April 21, 2003, at 13:59:42
I looked for Dinah's book in 2 libraries and 2 bookstores, but didn't find it. Maybe I'll get it online.
I saw my therapist yesterday. We seemed to make some progress in her understanding of the issues I see in the relationship. I still don't know if I'm not being clear or if she's not hearing. I think we each have significant assumptions about the other, and that those things may no longer be true.
I told her that I was willing to work on the dependency issue, but that cutting back to every other week didn't seem like the best solution. I made a counterproposal: We would identify the needs that I have that she is meeting (or that I want her to meet) and then we will identify other ways of meeting those needs. Then I can transfer needs slowly and hopefully less traumatically. She said that this plan would be OK. Next week I'm supposed to bring a list of needs.
I had given her journalling telling her how she could word it when she kicked me out, so I would be able to handle it. Basically, she would need to say that _she_ needed to terminate. Since I'll do anything for her, I would do that, too. She didn't bring anything up in the session about that. This week I gave her a summary of where I am (since we are communicating so poorly, I wanted to put it all in one place). This ended with a paragraph about all the things I have learned. But she isn't ready to force termination (she is concerned that "she isn't helping me") yet.
So things are marginally better (though it took 24 hours for me to be able to post this). It is nice to know that I have the group therapist in reserve - either for a single session of advice, or for long term.
Thank you all for your support. It really helps.
Posted by Dinah on April 23, 2003, at 19:10:53
In reply to Re: Forever therapy - All, posted by fallsfall on April 23, 2003, at 12:10:14
I am really impressed with how hard you are working at this. I hope your therapist is as impressed. I also hope she recognizes the maturity behind what you are doing.
I think I ordered the book through Amazon, although I think I'll check out my local library and donate it if it isn't there. It should be required reading for all long term therapy clients, IMHO.
Posted by noa on April 24, 2003, at 5:56:00
In reply to Re: Forever therapy - All, posted by fallsfall on April 23, 2003, at 12:10:14
>>I am really impressed with how hard you are working at this. I hope your therapist is as impressed. I also hope she recognizes the maturity behind what you are doing.
I agree! You are working so hard on this! And I am so impressed that you are responding in this way, given the hurt feelings you have had.
Keep us posted.
Posted by fallsfall on April 25, 2003, at 23:41:21
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » fallsfall, posted by noa on April 24, 2003, at 5:56:00
Thanks for the encouragement. I really do want this relationship to work. I think she does too.
I'm feeling better about the dependency stuff.
Thanks!!!
P.S. I still think I want Forever Therapy, though.
Posted by allisonf on April 26, 2003, at 0:56:19
In reply to Re: Forever therapy, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2003, at 12:01:09
Hi...I haven't posted here in so long, I don't know why. I do ck in now and again, and tonight I had thought to post a new thread on the bd asking for support. Tonight I have been paying for Wed's hypomania with persistent suicidal thoughts.
But I had to post when I saw Dinah's reply, fallsfall. I am that woman Dinah wrote about who drove by her therapist's house and then told her about it. That was a little over a year ago, and my feelings for her are just as intense. We have discussed them up and down...and I write pages about it. I try to read everything I can about the transference phenomena to try to resolve it (which you obviously can't just do by reading about it, but still...), but I feel like there's not really that much out there that isn't all intellectual and Jungian and judgmental. *Except* that book "In Session" that Dinah recommended by D Lott! It is definitely worth reading--it looks at transference through many different angles. I got it thru Amazon.
It sounds like you really are working hard to communicate with your therapist and come to a mutual understanding. I actually think you are being much more accommodating to her needs that she should expect. I know that therapists have to expect (and even count on) these dependency/transference type issues to come up (it certainly is grist!), so I think they have to be prepared that clients are going to have strong feelings, want to feel close to them, be curious about them personally, etc. Not that I condone driving by a therapist's house or searching for them on the internet (which I have also done btw)(and I've searched for her husband, her sisters & brothers, etc.), but if you are strong enough to be honest about it, that warrants support. Good luck with everything.
P.S. I like the name of the thread too! All total I've been in therapy 5 and 1/2 yrs and still counting!
Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2003, at 7:26:15
In reply to Re: Forever therapy, posted by allisonf on April 26, 2003, at 0:56:19
Allison, It's good to see you again. I always wondered whether you were able to work that out with your therapist, and I'm glad you were. It was a scary moment for me that something that seemed so minor would disrupt a relationship. I think I'm becoming much more assured myself that he probably won't terminate me against my will unless he moves or quits his practice. I still get terrified if anything happens to disrupt it though.
It's amazing how much real work can be done when that fear is dealt with.
I think I just reached my eight year anniversary. :D (Hey, don't I get a pin or something soon? Or does he deserve that instead. grin.)
Posted by fallsfall on April 26, 2003, at 9:34:37
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » allisonf, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2003, at 7:26:15
Allisonf, it is nice to meet you. I work so hard because I'm afraid that if I don't I won't be worthy to be her patient. It is comforting to know that other people have clung (fused?) to their therapists. I also read a lot. I live in a University town so I have access to their library and all of their technical books. My therapist thinks that I could probably get a Masters in Psychology with what I have read.
Each year on the anniversary of our first session I bring in cupcakes or donuts, usually with the number of the anniversary written in icing on the top. The first year she was a little skeptical, but then she decided that it wasn't a present for her, but a party for Us, that it would be OK. We celebrated our 8th anniversary in January.
Posted by mair on April 26, 2003, at 10:06:05
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » allisonf, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2003, at 7:26:15
I picked up on this thread late. I frequently worry that I'm not making enough progress in therapy because I'm not fully committed or haven't allowed myself to form a strong connection with my therapist. I also sometimes tell her that i think she's the only one working in our therapy sessions. I've seen her for 4+ years now and twice a week for about 2 of them. She continually reassures me that she sees progress, that I shouldn't worry about being the "perfect patient," that I'm not her longest-running patient, and that she doesn't think I'm going to be there forever. When I'm looking at things more clearly I can see the progress too but I get frustrated by how slow the process is. She's also pretty convinced that it would be a huge mistake for me to terminate therapy and has jokingly said she'd go to great lengths to keep from letting that happen.
I started going 2x a week coming off a period when I was in very bad shape. I've come to see however that her desire to have me there that frequently has less to do with my sometimes precarious mental state and far more to do with the difficulty i have getting over the trust hump. I think she's trying to help me form that stronger connection and would view my becoming more dependent as a good sign.
I'm not at all thrilled about talking to her about our relationship, but fortunately she is and I do have to say it's getting easier for me to have difficult conversations. She's not obsessive about boundaries - there are lots of times when she shares information with me, particularly when we're comparing notes on managing things as working mothers.
But all that being said, I don't like that therapy is such a difficult process for me and I still wonder a lot of the time whether there's anything she really can do for me. Sometimes I question whether her confidence in my ability to get stronger through therapy is not grounded in reality as much as it is an outgrowth of her own overly optimistic view of what therapy can accomplish. I mean if therapists can't believe in therapy who can? Also sometimes I think she'd never terminate me even if she thought therapy with me wasn't a worthwhile exercise for me because she wouldn't want to trigger all of the rejection issues I have. Also when you have as much invested in a relationship or a process as I do, who wants to suddenly decide that it's all been a huge waste of money?
I have no easy answers for any of this. The bottom line is that I have to fall back on the notion that she knows what she's doing - so it all comes back to the "T" word (trust).
Mair
Posted by allisonf on April 26, 2003, at 19:01:32
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » allisonf, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2003, at 7:26:15
Dinah, it's good to connect with you again too. I was really going thru a rough time last night and it was kind of a neat thing to see your post referring to our old transference thread!
My therapist and I did work things out about the "drive by". After her initial anger (which she did try to hide, but...), I think she was really able to deal with whatever anger/fear/hurt feelings she had about it outside of our therapy. While she knows all about my feelings for her, it is still really hard for me to confess when I do things like look her up on the internet, etc. I never go beyond the "public domain" as someone (noa?) brought up earlier, but I still feel kind of sleazy about it. More than anything, I just have a hard time reconciling these feelings. Everyone says you need to go thru this to grow in therapy, but does all this dependency really lead to a healthy outcome? How long does it have to take?
Eek! I'm sorry, I didn't mean to go on like that. It was just good to see a familiar name last night--thank you.
Take care--A
Posted by allisonf on April 26, 2003, at 19:32:26
In reply to Re: Forever therapy, posted by fallsfall on April 26, 2003, at 9:34:37
fallsfall, nice to meet you too. I totally feel for you. I have thought sometimes that the only way to deal with my attachment feelings is to go cold turkey and never see her again...but I can't imagine a) this is a healthy thing to do, and b) how I could deal without the sound of her voice.
That's a fun idea to have an anniversary celebration. It's great that she goes for it. I have often thought of just bringing her a birthday present type thing to one of my sessions saying that since I don't know when her birthday is (I really don't--I didn't go that far on the internet stuff :) ), I just picked a day. It sounds like your therapist doesn't accept any gifts? I know the APA says no, but sometimes my therapist will accept a small gesture. Tho...I gave her a bracelet for Hanukkah and now I am sometimes preoccupied cking for it during my sessions. When she wears it (which she does a lot)...sigh. I guess this is why the APA says no gifts, huh? :) And no, we haven't talked about my bracelet issue yet.
Take care--A
Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2003, at 13:58:52
In reply to Re: Forever therapy, posted by mair on April 26, 2003, at 10:06:05
So you don't want forever therapy, Mair? :)
Four years isn't really all that long. My first five years were pretty much a waste of time. No, not true. My first five years were an ongoing struggle for me to trust. One that I don't think he'd ever quite experienced before. I think he came close to giving up more often than I did, although he only tells me that in retrospect. I challenged him, tested him, was truly obnoxious in some ways. And he was always professional and accepting towards me no matter how I behaved. He tells me now that I never did *behave* all that badly; he just never felt like he was getting through to me.
But when the moment came where I admitted to myself and to him that I trusted him, that I was dependent on him, when I allowed myself to be vulnerable to him, it was a complete and total change. It took him a year or so to catch on that what I had said previous to that was no longer true (if it ever was) and that my attitude had changed. Even now he sometimes has flashbacks to that period, although I've mostly forgotten it. After that moment, I was actually able to do the work of therapy, and it was amazing how much I had soaked up when neither of us thought I was listening.
I too wonder sometimes if there is any lasting value in therapy. Sure, it keeps me together at times I'm falling apart, but am I growing? I'm still not sure. I'm kind of hoping others see it before we do. But when I start to wonder about the long term benefits, I start looking at some on the board who've been in therapy for a while. Noa, Pfinistegg, Tabitha, to name a few. I don't know if it came naturally to them or they're therapy success stories, but they seem grounded in a way that I really admire. And I hope to be grounded one day myself that way.
And when I'm in doubt about the money and time, I do remind myself of one thing. My son (and husband) don't see even a fraction of the craziness my parents unleashed on me because I unleash it on my therapist instead. If no other good than that came from it, it would be worthwhile. (Boy, do I wish my parents had their own therapists.)
Do you see any ways that therapy has already helped you? Either by bringing about changes in your attitudes, or by helping you cope better day to day?
Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2003, at 14:12:01
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Dinah, posted by allisonf on April 26, 2003, at 19:01:32
I'm really glad to hear about the outcome, so I'm glad you posted. I admire your therapist's professionalism in coping with her feelings on her own time. Have you found that your feelings towards her have changed at all? Do they get in the way of other therapeutic work?
My therapist has always been relatively transparent. He talks about his private life in the casual way aquaintances do. He doesn't burden me with his troubles, but he's certainly not a blank screen. I think I'd be a lot more curious about the real him if he were a blank screen. So I guess I miss out on some of the classic transference stuff, but I think his style suits me better.
Posted by allisonf on April 27, 2003, at 21:50:38
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » allisonf, posted by Dinah on April 27, 2003, at 14:12:01
You know, my feelings for my therapist haven't changed all that much since I posted a year ago. But I should explain more...I actually think (and my therapist agrees) that what's going on with my feelings for her are not just about classic transference. I was diagnosed bipolar II (rapid cycling) about 1 1/2 yrs ago. That's when I started therapy again with the main focus being stabilization of my mood and then dealing with my other issues.
When I had seen her for therapy in the past, it was usually b/c I was having difficulty with a relationship--not my primary romantic interest, but other mentor-like relationships I had developed (a professor or a man I was working with...). I would start to get close to them emotionally, and then I would develop infatuation like feelings...sounds rather Freudian, huh? So, we spent a lot of time looking at where this was coming from, how to think about and handle it, etc. But what we weren't seeing at the time was this energy factor that was associated with these relationships. When I had encounters with these people, I would be unable to sleep almost all night long, doing sit-ups or running outside late at night, writing in my journal about that person, thinking over and over of what I would say to them next, replaying what had happened with them, etc.--an incredible engery that we now have a name for--hypomania.
So, this time around in therapy b/c I had to deal with being vulnerable and dependent (I thought it was interesting in your post how you talk about this happening 5 years into therapy...and having to put your therapist thru a lot to get there) in a way that I never had to before I was "sick", I developed this infatuation for her. She says that she has experienced transference issues with other clients, but that my feelings are much more intense. And her style really does sounds a lot like your therapist in that she isn't really a blank screen and often does self-disclose very casually, and sometimes about very serious things...
I do know that a lot of what is tied up in my feelings for her is also tied up in my hypomanic tendencies. When I am in the normal part of a cycle, I barely think of her at all. Even when I am depressed, I sometimes wish for her comfort, but it's not that intensity that I feel for her when I am on the upswing. So, she keeps saying, if we can get me stabilized and in remission, perhaps these feelings will quiet down too.
In the meantime, to answer your question, these feelings sometimes get in the way of other therapeutic work, but sometimes affect it positively. Clearly, that bracelet thing is getting in the way. Also, when she self discloses things, it triggers the "I am special to her" thing, which just makes me take off. But she has said things that make me react like I would to my mother, and then we get to deal with those issues. Also, she's Jewish, and I have a Jewish background, and b/c of her I started to deal with a lot of my issues re:religion. I know it may not sound like it, but when I go thru a 4-6 week period of no cycling, we do get a lot done!
What kind of therapeutic orientation is your therapist? It sounds like he was also very professional when you described that process you went thru starting to trust and depend on him. Did something happen that made you start going thru that process at that time (you had said it was 5 yrs into your therapy)?
Posted by Dinah on April 28, 2003, at 12:22:41
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Dinah, posted by allisonf on April 27, 2003, at 21:50:38
That makes perfect sense to me. In fact, pragmatist that I am, it sounds wonderfully adaptive and clever of you. If you have problems with developing attachments to people during your hypomanic phases, diverting that attention to your therapist is safe, she understands it, and overall it is far better than the alternatives. It may not be the perfect long term solution, but until your meds take care of the hypomania or until you are able to put to rest that recurring theme, I think you should congratulate yourself.
If particular things that disturb therapy like the bracelet come up, you can discuss them with her. Did you ever talk to her about how her self-disclosure makes you feel? I don't think that my therapist's makes me feel special in any way. I rather suspect he self discloses the same way with everyone. And in his openness he manages to discourage any thoughts about specialness. The things he says sometimes!! It's a good thing I have a sense of humor about it.
I don't know what his theoretical orientation is. I think whenever I ask he says something like eclectic. I know he was very CBT oriented when I first went to see him, but he adjusted his style to the fact that CBT was not going to be really worthwhile to me straight up. He slips it in, but he doesn't push it. I think he's mentioned a few times that his goal is now providing a "good-enough" parenting experience for me. Teaching me that anger or being bad doesn't lead to rejection. That sort of thing.
I'm not really sure that I know why I learned to trust him after 5 years. It was an ah-hah experience. I had just come out of a meltdown where I was what I considered to be exceptionally annoying towards him. It suddenly occurred to me that he always treated me professionally and respectfully no matter how many times I quit therapy or called him hysterically or whatever. And I also realized that like it or not, I was attached. All I was accomplishing by denying it was a lot of turmoil. The deed was done, I might as well accept it. And he was safe (or as safe as any paid professional can be) to trust. I don't know really. I've had a few moments like that in my relationship with my husband. One where I realized that we actually were good together, and that all the differences I railed against were pretty minor in comparison to other people. I just didn't have anything to compare against. Again when I decided it was time to set a ring and a date. It was just a sudden shift in perspective. Same thing. Actually, I had those same sudden shifts with my parents too (in a negative direction), so it must be a personal relationship characteristic of mine. Hmmmm.... Interesting. :)
Posted by noa on April 28, 2003, at 16:20:18
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » mair, posted by Dinah on April 27, 2003, at 13:58:52
Chiming in to this interesting thread....
Thank you Dinah, for seeing me as grounded. I think that I do owe whatever groundedness I have to all the therapy I've had, and (shall I also say?), to the work I have done in therapy.
I have had waves of depressive illness of varying severity, but my "baseline" before I ever started therapy also was problematic--I was a basket case of anxiety and lack of self esteem, and probably what is now termed "social phobia". OK, these are still "issues" but nowhere near what they were before therapy.
I do believe it helps but I also have at times felt like it was hard to see progress or that the progress was too slow, and feeling really frustrated with myself. But usually, those feelings were during depressed times. Or, when I was not quite ready to deal with some stuff that I was afraid would overwhelm me. Going to twice a week helped because it is easier to open up hard issues knowing that I don't have to close up for a whole week again. Overall, I most definitely see progress and how much therapy has helped me.
However, I think a good "fit" with a therapist is key. I think not only can progress not happen with a therapist who is a bad "fit", but it can make things worse. I saw this with a good friend of mine who got more and more depressed over time. What she had told me and another friend about her therapist had always kind of disturbed us, and when we saw her going way down hill fast, we just urged her as strongly as we could to get out of the therapy and find someone else. She did get out, and it has been taking a while to heal from that experience, but it was pretty clear that she was better off without therapy than with that particular therapist. She is just starting to look for a new therapist after taking a year and a half off from therapy.
Posted by Dinah on April 28, 2003, at 20:13:27
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » Dinah, posted by noa on April 28, 2003, at 16:20:18
You should definitely also say the work you've done in therapy. :) I'm sorry I didn't add that. I'm sure it's possible to go to therapy interminably and not improve at all if you don't use it wisely.
But that leads to the big questions. What does hard work in therapy really look like? How do you know if you're really doing it? My therapist usually congratulates me on my hard work when I've emoted all over the place or when he's pushed me to the point where I lose my temper. Is that really what hard work is?
And also, how do you know if your therapist is the right fit for you? I know that sounds like a silly question, but like with romance, when you're in a relationship it's hard to judge it objectively.
Is a good session where you feel better than when you came in? Or is it when you walk in feeling fine and leave sick and shaky? How about a reasonable mix of both of those?
Sometimes I think it would be nice if therapy wasn't quite so private. If maybe once a year or so you went in for an exam, where a third party evaluates what's going on. On the other hand, I'd rip the throat out of anyone who jeopardized my therapuetic relationship (metaphorically of course).
Posted by mair on April 29, 2003, at 21:20:07
In reply to Re: Forever therapy » noa, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2003, at 20:13:27
Dinah, those are all good questions. I'm frequently baffled by my inability to really quantify the benefits of therapy - other than the obvious benefit of having someone who sees that I'm slipping into a deeper depression far sooner than I do and who is there when I'm pretty much falling apart.
Most of the other benefits are those recognized in retrospect. Something routinely traumatic will happen and I'll realize that I haven't reacted as badly as I would before. We've spent alot of time hashing through work issues and while all of those issues are still there, I just seem to be able to distance myself from office turmoil better than I used to.
But of course the benefits are obscured by periodic episodes of depression, and by the difficulty I still have opening up to my therapist on all sorts of fronts. The relationship issues which seem to be interconnected to my very low self esteem are still troublesome, and since I'm so reluctant to really tackle these in therapy, I continually think it's just beyond my ability to progress as far as I need to.
I've also wondered about the "fit." I like my therapist alot and think she's very competent, but I'm rarely blown away by her insight or her intuitiveness. It's been a struggle for me to form a bond or connection to her. But I think all that says more about me than it does her, and more about why she wants me there twice a week. Lacking all that, what keeps me going, I guess, is her incredible patience and unending optimism that we can get where I want to go.
Mair
PS: I too, have no clue what hard work is. I've told her before that I frequently feel that she is the only one of the 2 of us who is actually working. She seems mystified that I could feel this way since therapy is often just very difficult for me. But i don't equate hard work with being very uncomfortable. The fact that I spend an inordinate amount of time in many sessions staring at the clock or figuring out how I can get out of there as soon as possible, (a trapped animal comes to mind), doesn't mean I'm working hard but rather that I'm trying to avoid working.
Posted by Dinah on April 29, 2003, at 22:54:54
In reply to Re: Forever therapy- Noa Dinah, posted by mair on April 29, 2003, at 21:20:07
I'm trying to decide if I have ever stared at the clock. Except to see how much time I had left. It never seems like there is enough time. Whatever issue we are discussing takes up the full session, and I usually have things I want to ask from the previous session as well. I don't know how I did it at once a week.
He likes to leave me with at least one question to think about from one session to the next, although he isn't obvious enough to be irritating about it.
Posted by mair on April 30, 2003, at 7:39:21
In reply to Re: Forever therapy- Noa Dinah » mair, posted by Dinah on April 29, 2003, at 22:54:54
I guess "stare at the clock" isn't precisely accurate. Like you, I do have many sessions where I glance at it and see that there's far less time than I might want. But I also have sessions where I'll glance at the clock at a difficult moment and be horrified to see that there is too much time left. I won't then start at the clock, but I will continually glance at it and my therapist does notice this. I've also fended off difficult questions with a remark that there is not enough time to answer it.
When things are more difficult, I have a great deal of trouble maintaining eye contact. If I'm not staring at the clock, my eyes are locked into something else, like a point on the arm chair I sit in or a point in a picture on the wall. I definitely try to withdraw.
I'm amazed you can "chew" on things between sessions. It's horrifying to me how much I forget from one session to the next - I may remember how I felt when I left, but can't seem to put my finger on why. It's good that she takes notes.
My tendency to forget (and to avoid cogitating about what we talked about) is a liability to progress, and yet another thing I can criticize myself for.
Mair
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