![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 14, 2006, at 9:10:07
In reply to Re: one of the elephants?, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 13, 2006, at 7:29:33
> > > I am in grief.
> > >
> > > I am very sad.
> > >
> > > I am feeling anxious
> >
> > > I was trying to fix babble, because babble hurt me.
> >
> > Are other feelings part of grief, too?
>
> What follows has been sorted into expressions of grief || reactions to grief.Thanks for going back through your post. For others, too, grief can also include feeling alone, unsupported, hopeless, helpless, and overwrought. And maybe also angry?
Bob
Posted by muffled on December 14, 2006, at 14:57:55
In reply to Re: other elephants, posted by Dr. Bob on December 14, 2006, at 9:10:07
> > > Are other feelings part of grief, too?
> >
> > What follows has been sorted into expressions of grief || reactions to grief.
>
> Thanks for going back through your post. For others, too, grief can also include feeling alone, unsupported, hopeless, helpless, and overwrought. And maybe also angry?
>
**ahhh, P-doc Bob, the scientist replies.
WHY?
Did you just want to slide in the anger thing?
Is there something you personally are trying to process?
Why did you ask the question in the first place?
For babble? for personal reasons? for research? General curiousity? WHY???
Perhaps your interested in grief and its connection with death? Is there a tangent your going on here?
WHY are you asking this stuff?
This is a QUESTION.
For you to answer if you feel so inclined....
So i will make it very clear:
>Are other feelings part of grief, too?>And maybe also angry?
WHY are you asking questions like those above?
Respectfully waiting (well mebbe not terribly respectfully, but I await a reply).
Thanks,
Muffled
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 14, 2006, at 19:42:58
In reply to Re: other elephants » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on December 14, 2006, at 14:57:55
> > And maybe also angry?
>
> WHY are you asking questions like those above?To try to facilitate discussion. But anger may be hard to discuss. Or I may be wrong and there may not be anger, I don't mean to jump to conclusions...
Bob
Posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 14, 2006, at 20:22:25
In reply to Re: other elephants, posted by Dr. Bob on December 14, 2006, at 9:10:07
> > > > I am in grief.
> > > >
> > > > I am very sad.
> > > >
> > > > I am feeling anxious
> > >
> > > > I was trying to fix babble, because babble hurt me.
> > >
> > > Are other feelings part of grief, too?
> >
> > What follows has been sorted into expressions of grief || reactions to grief.
>
> Thanks for going back through your post. For others, too, grief can also include feeling alone, unsupported, hopeless, helpless, and overwrought. And maybe also angry?
>
> BobDear Dr. Bob,
I know you mean well, but I feel that you have done me an injustice. By including the word "too" and the modal verb "can" instead of "may", you presume to describe my grief as also including elements of "anger".Please go back to my original post, and read it very carefully. I include the entire post below, because I don't think it's fair to only quote a snippet here and there in this particular situation.
I was talking very specifically about MY reaction to my friend pseudoname's suicide. I did not attempt to explain or analyze how "others" feel about it. I wrote about how *I* felt.
From the psychobabble FAQ's
"...And it tends to be more conducive to harmony to talk about how you feel than what someone else did,..."
Perhaps, Dr. Bob, if you wanted to introduce the topic of "anger" you could have written about your own reaction of "anger" or cited one of these "others".
FAQ's cont.
"Please don't be sarcastic, treat injury or death lightly,... jump to conclusions about others, post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down,... use language that could offend others, ... post information that you know to ... exaggerate or overgeneralize -- etc. Even if you're quoting someone else."
Dr. Bob, please do not use my post to overgeneralize my feelings to others who may be grieving. Please do not interpret my post to include feelings that I do not acknowledge. That is a therapist's job, not yours. If you wish to talk about more general reactions to grief, you could have used multiple examples, or perhaps started your own thread.
or you could have linked us to an earlier discussion on a related topic, for example
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031120/msgs/291730.html
For the record, I am in grief for pseudoname. I am also in grief for other things. I am angry about other things. I am not angry that pseudoname chose to take his own life. I am not angry about how I found out that pseudoname took his own life ("blaming the messenger", as it were). If I am angry, I cannot acknowledge it in this forum because I cannot find a civil way of communicating it (it's a rather specific anger). Also, for the record, I was angry before I found out about my friend's suicide, and I'm not sure that his suicide changed the intensity or quality of my anger.
I leave it to your discretion (not that I have a choice) whether to leave this PBC on the /grief/ board or to redirect it to /administration/.
Thank you for your hard work on this site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My original post:
I am in grief.I am very sad.
I am feeling anxious, well to the extent that my current medication allows it.
I wish Babble weren't the source of that pain, but I cannot deny it is.
I was trying to fix babble, because babble hurt me.
And I thought I'd start simple.
crushed. so i give up. no fixing. no tinkering. No more commentary.
What's the use? I don't get blocked. I'm rarely in danger of incivility. Why should I bother? babble's safe for me, or unsafe or whatever. who cares?
Maybe, Honore, the reason why things seem to spiral out of control here is because this board is not designed to provide support. It sure would be nice if we could have a forum to provide support to our Administrators. I would have a lot to say. Or a way of feeling like we were actually engaging in a collaboration with our Administrators. That is not the case. Good collaborators do not ignore well-intentioned suggestions. Good collaborators try to explain why something will work and why something won't work. Instead, I often feel like a sniveling peon, finding my ideas dismissed or ignored as easily as one would wipe crumbs from a table.
I'm abandoning my misconception of Dr. Bob's project being a collaborative enterprise between "contributors" and "administrators".
Sorry, my role here is to fill up vanilla pages with evidence of my transforming insanity.
My role here is to BABBLE.
To talk rapidly or continuously in a foolish, excited, or incomprehensible way
To utter something rapidly and incoherently
To reveal something secret or confidential by talking impulsively or carelessly
To make the continuous murmuring sound of water flowing over stones.
[from Oxford American Dictionaries]
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 17, 2006, at 2:04:13
In reply to please be civil, Dr. Bob » Dr. Bob, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 14, 2006, at 20:22:25
> I know you mean well, but I feel that you have done me an injustice. By including the word "too" and the modal verb "can" instead of "may", you presume to describe my grief as also including elements of "anger".
> Dr. Bob, please do not use my post to overgeneralize my feelings to others who may be grieving.
Sorry, I didn't mean to jump to conclusions about your feelings or those of others.
> I am angry about other things. I am not angry that pseudoname chose to take his own life. I am not angry about how I found out that pseudoname took his own life ("blaming the messenger", as it were). If I am angry, I cannot acknowledge it in this forum because I cannot find a civil way of communicating it (it's a rather specific anger). Also, for the record, I was angry before I found out about my friend's suicide, and I'm not sure that his suicide changed the intensity or quality of my anger.
Thanks for considering my question and sharing more about your feelings. Would you like some help communicating anger in a civil way?
Does anybody feel anger as part of their grief?
Bob
Posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 17, 2006, at 13:59:35
In reply to Re: anger, posted by Dr. Bob on December 17, 2006, at 2:04:13
> > Dr. Bob, please do not use my post to overgeneralize my feelings to others who may be grieving.
>
> Sorry, I didn't mean to jump to conclusions about your feelings or those of others.
>Thank you for your apology Dr. Bob.
It means a lot to me. I may talk about my anger as it relates to other subjects more specifically, in more appropriate locations.In general, I guess my grief, and my reactions to this event kind of made me feel more susceptible to strong emotions. I am usually pretty restrained emotionally, and I take medication which (in my opinion) often blunts or lessens my experience of emotions.
So, when I heard of my friend's death, it made me feel really sad, and hopeless. It also made me feel like I had fewer resources to cope with other things that were coming my way (i.e. holiday "fun" with the family...). I felt some anger towards a response to suicide in general, because I felt that other people's experience of suicide may lead them to make statements that are not necessarily accurate or appropriate to my friend's suicide.
The news and updates and such about pseudoname's suicide were appearing on both supportive (i.e. psycho-babble main site) AND non-supportive (i.e. Administration site) locations.
When I read the administration board, I tend to get opinionated. I tend to identify with more extreme viewpoints, and seek to make changes that align with those viewpoints. I try to "improve" babble. This occurs INDEPENDENTLY of grieving, and is why I stay out of this part of the website.
So, two things happening at once- I want you to change your blocking policy. I want you to change it in a direction that will suit the opinions of MANY, because we all are affected by blocking policy. I do not get a good sense of what babbler's think about blocking policy, because arguments are usually very influenced by the current events-- in terms of who's blocked now, and for how long.
I got frustrated, because I sensed a contradiction on your part- I sensed that you wish to get feedback from users, but that you also wish to limit decision making. It is equally frustrating that we are very rarely privy to your rationale for making changes. Even major, dramatic changes are often announced like: I'm trying out a new blocking system; or, what do the deputies think? or, let's try this out for now.
If you could explain your reasoning a little bit better, it would help ME to understand whether you are more flexible in terms of some policy changes vs. others. It would help me understand what kind of data and feedback informs your decisions. It would help me understand that making suggestions on the Administration board is not an exercise in futile whining, but that our suggestions are considered seriously.
It doesn't matter whether 10 babblers consider my suggestion seriously. On the Administration board, it only matters that 1 Dr. Bob considers my suggestions seriously.
Yeah, I was a little emotional in the week or so following Pseudoname's suicide, but part of that follows inevitably (for me!) from spending time on the psycho-babble Admin board.
Okay, so I'm ready to talk about MY anger.
I'm angry that I should first learn of pseudoname's death on a thread that contained non-supportive posts.
I'm angry that suicide in general is argued to be a taboo or contagious behavior, without regard to my friend's suicide.
I'm angry that remembering a dead psycho-babbler in a memorial is considered unacceptable to some.
I'm angry that discussion of this topic is stifled by the persistent fear of your blocking policies.
I'm angry that Dr. Bob weighs in so rarely, even on the Administrative board, where his opinion ultimately is the only one that matters.
I'm angry at my mom, and my family, and my life. and that is also exacerbated by a feeling of disenfranchisement and disempowerment that I get when I spend too much time on the Admin board.
I'm angry at myself. One of my self-inflicted wounds is infected and it hurts.
enough anger?
-Ll
Posted by muffled on December 17, 2006, at 17:53:26
In reply to Re: other elephants, posted by Dr. Bob on December 14, 2006, at 19:42:58
> > > And maybe also angry?
> >
> > WHY are you asking questions like those above?
>
> To try to facilitate discussion. But anger may be hard to discuss. Or I may be wrong and there may not be anger, I don't mean to jump to conclusions...**WTF are you DOING??????
Oh sure, lets talk about anger to people that are potentially alone and unsafe, lets just.
What a wonderful idea.
Its just f*cking TOTALLY f*cking triggering to SOME. NO f*cking kidding???????????????
Do you have the rage Bob? Do you know how it feels?????????????I don't think you do. You don't know the power of it. Or you wouldn't say these things.
Bob, you may know computers, but you got alotta learning to do bout people IMO.
But then I am a total freak so wtf do I know?
Posted by dreamboat_annie on December 17, 2006, at 18:54:53
In reply to Excuse me, but defense engaged, **anger trigger*** » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on December 17, 2006, at 17:53:26
yourself credit for. Be kind to yourself, Muffled, just as you are to others.
Posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 17, 2006, at 19:31:40
In reply to Excuse me, but defense engaged, **anger trigger*** » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on December 17, 2006, at 17:53:26
thanks muffled.
i'm trying to keep a lid on it myself.
going into scary land, but i've been running away at intervals.
i'm about to lose it though.
grandpa is getting senileish and losing control over what constitutes proper vs. improper things to say. temper.
i was warned.
didn't realize how f*cking annoying it would be to hear my mom and dad bicker over their marriage that failed many years ago but still keeps ticking.
didn't realize how f*cking triggering it would be to hear my mom tell one depressing story after another, knowing that there is no room in her consciousness to process the feelings of those around her.
didn't realize how f*cking frustrating it is to have a father who is deaf and demented and tries to interrupt every single conversation with a grim picture of a conspiracy theory that explains how current topic of discussion relates to a certain political party's plot to end the future of humanity.
f*ck them all.
i can't find my damn cookie recipe.
what do you know? I got more anger after all!
yay!!!
-Ll
Posted by muffled on December 17, 2006, at 23:06:38
In reply to Re: Excuse me, but defense engaged, **anger trigge » muffled, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 17, 2006, at 19:31:40
you will be leaving soon.
Hubby come soon.
Big deep breaths.
Grounding is good.
Stare at a leaf or flower or something, and marvel at its beauty and complexity. all the tiny little details. Its texture, its smell, its color, its shape. And breath, deep deep , cleansing breaths.
Muffled
Posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 17, 2006, at 23:32:43
In reply to Hang in there LI, just hang in there » LlurpsieBlossom, posted by muffled on December 17, 2006, at 23:06:38
Posted by muffled on December 18, 2006, at 15:11:38
In reply to Excuse me, but defense engaged, **anger trigger*** » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on December 17, 2006, at 17:53:26
Sh*t.
Sorry.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 21, 2006, at 2:53:15
In reply to Re: anger **suicide and SI triggers** » Dr. Bob, posted by LlurpsieBlossom on December 17, 2006, at 13:59:35
> In general, I guess my grief, and my reactions to this event kind of made me feel more susceptible to strong emotions.
> Okay, so I'm ready to talk about MY anger.
>
> I'm angry that I should first learn of pseudoname's death on a thread that contained non-supportive posts.
>
> I'm angry that suicide in general is argued to be a taboo or contagious behavior, without regard to my friend's suicide.
>
> I'm angry that remembering a dead psycho-babbler in a memorial is considered unacceptable to some.
>
> I'm angry that discussion of this topic is stifled by the persistent fear of your blocking policies.
>
> I'm angry that Dr. Bob weighs in so rarely, even on the Administrative board, where his opinion ultimately is the only one that matters.
>
> I'm angry at my mom, and my family, and my life.
>
> I'm angry at myself. One of my self-inflicted wounds is infected and it hurts.
>
> enough anger?Plenty! Thanks for facing and sorting through all that.
> a feeling of disenfranchisement and disempowerment that I get when I spend too much time on the Admin board.
That's interesting, feeling disempowered may be part of grief and Admin both. Speaking of Admin, I've redirected other comments there. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20061202/msgs/715371.html
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 21, 2006, at 2:53:23
In reply to Excuse me, but defense engaged, **anger trigger*** » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on December 17, 2006, at 17:53:26
> Oh sure, lets talk about anger to people that are potentially alone and unsafe, lets just.
> What a wonderful idea.
> Its just f*cking TOTALLY f*cking triggering to SOME. NO f*cking kidding???????????????I did say it might be hard to discuss! Thanks for adding the trigger warning.
Bob
Posted by Sigismund on June 9, 2007, at 21:21:39
In reply to Re: anger trigger, posted by Dr. Bob on December 21, 2006, at 2:53:23
Empowerment is one of those words I really wish had never been popularised.
Like so many other words and concepts around today, it has the feel of a Masters of Business Admin.Anger is a reasonable reaction to loss, but it is a mistake to confuse it with grief.
Completely different feel.Grief is closer to remorse, but there's no anger in that (except directed toward oneself?) either.
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on June 9, 2007, at 23:34:40
In reply to Anger and Grief, posted by Sigismund on June 9, 2007, at 21:21:39
> Empowerment is one of those words I really wish had never been popularised.
> Like so many other words and concepts around today, it has the feel of a Masters of Business Admin.
>Maybe you had to be there? Maybe I've been weak and felt brittle, and I heard two voices- one said you will make it through this, and be stronger for it and the other said- people like you will most certainly falter, you are going down and if you want, I'll help push you.
Which voice does one listen to? Where does one turn for advice?
I had to read back through this thread. It's been a while. I still grieve though, and I still remember what I'm angry about. Hell, I still remember the stupid wound.
MBA? Is that supposed to trivialize empowerment? I guess I don't understand. I thought the MBA degree conferred respect, or at the very least suggested some kind of competence about judging others' reactions in order to maximize profit.
I'm not sure why empowerment (the word or the notion) should be trivialized. Isn't it one of the purposes of supporting an individual?
> Anger is a reasonable reaction to loss, but it is a mistake to confuse it with grief.
> Completely different feel.
>How can we possibly use any word or combination of words to describe feelings? They are so truly subjective. These days I feel different about my friend's suicide. I feel his loss at unexpected moments, when something reminds me of him- sometimes he feels close, and sometimes his death feels so foriegn. Sometimes I catch myself when I think- I'm gonna write a babblemail to pseudo and see what HE thinks about something. Loss. wishing to share something with someone who no longer exists. lost. Are all of these complicated emotions to be reduced to a single word "grief"?
At the time I was posting about anger and grief, I was pretty turbulent. I'm not sure that the feelings were that separate in my mind. Outrage, that was something else, too
> Grief is closer to remorse, but there's no anger in that (except directed toward oneself?) either.I guess we have different experiences or maybe different feelings.
I respect your feelings, and ask you to respect mine, as mixed up and subjective and incomprehensible as they were and are. BUT- I do not intend to communicate that my feelings are somehow superior to yours in the sense that I was posting about a friend and a confidant. For all I know, you may have known pseudoname too.
-L
Posted by Sigismund on June 10, 2007, at 2:06:55
In reply to anger and grief **suicide trigger** » Sigismund, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on June 9, 2007, at 23:34:40
Lurps, I'm Declan. Don't be angry. I was reading a book which said 'Love must sometimes find its expression in grief, and our sense of the reality of other human beings must sometimes find its expression in remorse.' (Through wrong we have done to them).
I just do not like the managerial language that has spread throughout our culture, and I guess of all degrees, I have least respect for an MBA. And of course I've felt vulnerable. But the language I like about that is the sort of language we find in our books, our good books. So I prefer love, hope, charity, grief and remorse to words like empowerment, enhancement and depression (for example). But it's no big deal, it's just my preference for words that have clear meanings. A lot of words these days (and maybe always?) seem designed to conceal as much as to reveal.
And as for pseudo? I miss him.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Grief | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.