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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Meltingpot on August 14, 2012, at 9:18:37
Hi,
To those of you who are fortunate enough to be able to get themselves to bed to go to the gym, does anyone feel worse the day after excerising.
I force myself to go to the gym, 10 minutes on the bike kills me but I feel psychologically better that I did it. However the following few days afterwards I feel worse, I feel completely lethargic and listless and the tightness around my chest feels worse. I know it is not lung related, I used to experience these symptoms in my 20s after swimming but fortunately after being put on antidepressants (and them working) I know longer experienced the symptoms. Antidepressants don't work half as well for me anymore and I experience the same symptoms as I used to before I was ever put on antidepressants.
It's so frustrating because you read that exercise is supposed to help, not make you feel worse?
Does anyone else experience this?
Denise from the UK
Posted by Phillipa on August 14, 2012, at 10:04:18
In reply to Does exercise make anyone else feel worse?, posted by Meltingpot on August 14, 2012, at 9:18:37
I still ride bike outside at night but afterward the back pain is horrible so now I don't but before I used to really feel good. I know you are still young. Why do you feel the excercise is no longer helping? I undestand the meds same problem here. Phillipa
Posted by bleauberry on August 14, 2012, at 16:09:25
In reply to Does exercise make anyone else feel worse?, posted by Meltingpot on August 14, 2012, at 9:18:37
imo, that 's mostly cortisol related, mostly in the norepinephrine chemistry. If that were true, then that would point the way to things like rhodiola rosea, eleuthero, cordyceps, savella, and a new diet.
Posted by papillon2 on August 14, 2012, at 18:53:12
In reply to Re: Does exercise make anyone else feel worse?, posted by bleauberry on August 14, 2012, at 16:09:25
Could there be something physical going on? Might be worthwhile seeing your GP.
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2012, at 19:56:04
In reply to Does exercise make anyone else feel worse?, posted by Meltingpot on August 14, 2012, at 9:18:37
I've never found it to be as helpful as everyone says.
Since I started regular exercise (3x a week 1 hour a day) over a month ago, I've started to have occasional panic attacks, or something an awful lot like them.
I wake up with a racing heart, though no particularly anxious thoughts.
Overall though, I've never found it makes me feel less anxious or less depressed or even less angry. It really helps my husband. You can see the difference in him. So it must be an individual thing.
Of course, he's also lost a fair amount of weight. I gained a pound. :(((
Posted by Phillipa on August 14, 2012, at 21:28:26
In reply to Re: Does exercise make anyone else feel worse?, posted by Dinah on August 14, 2012, at 19:56:04
Muscle weights more than fat P
Posted by Raisinb on August 15, 2012, at 0:30:02
In reply to Does exercise make anyone else feel worse?, posted by Meltingpot on August 14, 2012, at 9:18:37
I have definitely had adverse effects from intense exercise (running). When I'm already headed in that direction, it makes a mixed state much worse, or maybe just helps it happen faster. It has often made me angrier and made my rumination worse. However, now that I'm on a med that seems to be working somewhat, running makes me feel better. Go figure.
Posted by Dinah on August 15, 2012, at 9:38:43
In reply to Re: Does exercise make anyone else feel worse? » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on August 14, 2012, at 21:28:26
He's losing inches. My clothes don't feel any looser. :(
I think diabetes and insulin resistance leads to a cycle, and it's harder to get started losing weight.
Posted by Dinah on August 15, 2012, at 9:41:47
In reply to Re: Does exercise make anyone else feel worse? » Meltingpot, posted by Raisinb on August 15, 2012, at 0:30:02
That was my experience too! While I never was one to run, I remember that anything physically rhythmic and repetitive increased my rumination. Once I got a letter from a friend that made me angry, and I walked miles and miles. Going over the injustice in time to my steps. I'd have been better watching TV for a while.
Posted by Phillipa on August 15, 2012, at 20:22:27
In reply to Re: Does exercise make anyone else feel worse? » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on August 15, 2012, at 9:38:43
Very true diabetes and the insulin resistance. As for excercise and ruminating jeez wish could jog still as would get into like a meditative trance and keep repeating unintentionally a phase over and over or part of a song. When done about a half hour later if I had a problem the answer would just pop into my head. Now this was in 30's and 40's before slight anxiety became worse. From thyroid, menopause, and finding out had chronic lymes disease. Phillipa
Posted by thegron on August 19, 2012, at 0:58:39
In reply to Does exercise make anyone else feel worse?, posted by Meltingpot on August 14, 2012, at 9:18:37
> Hi,
>
> To those of you who are fortunate enough to be able to get themselves to bed to go to the gym, does anyone feel worse the day after excerising.
>
> I force myself to go to the gym, 10 minutes on the bike kills me but I feel psychologically better that I did it. However the following few days afterwards I feel worse, I feel completely lethargic and listless and the tightness around my chest feels worse. I know it is not lung related, I used to experience these symptoms in my 20s after swimming but fortunately after being put on antidepressants (and them working) I know longer experienced the symptoms. Antidepressants don't work half as well for me anymore and I experience the same symptoms as I used to before I was ever put on antidepressants.
>
> It's so frustrating because you read that exercise is supposed to help, not make you feel worse?
>
> Does anyone else experience this?
>
>
>
> Denise from the UKTo give my two cents... I know that if I am out of shape and start working out again, I feel terrible after my workouts (physically, not psychologically). This is a natural reaction to the stress that you are putting on your body. It is not used to it, therefore, it requires time to adapt. I'm not sure how often you work out, but overtime, if you consistently do it, you will gain endurance and may feel better. then you will be able to go 20 min on bike, 30 min, and so on. you'll then find that you get addicted to the endorphin high that working out gives you. then you will feel more energized after your workouts and more lethargic when you skip them. anyway, that is of course if there is not some other underlying biological cause to your symptoms. I don't want to make any rash judgments as I do not know everything about you :)
Hope that helps a little bit. (sorry if you knew all of that already haha)
-Thegron
Posted by SLS on August 19, 2012, at 2:31:45
In reply to Re: Does exercise make anyone else feel worse? » Meltingpot, posted by thegron on August 19, 2012, at 0:58:39
> > Hi,
> >
> > To those of you who are fortunate enough to be able to get themselves to bed to go to the gym, does anyone feel worse the day after excerising.
> >
> > I force myself to go to the gym, 10 minutes on the bike kills me but I feel psychologically better that I did it. However the following few days afterwards I feel worse, I feel completely lethargic and listless and the tightness around my chest feels worse. I know it is not lung related, I used to experience these symptoms in my 20s after swimming but fortunately after being put on antidepressants (and them working) I know longer experienced the symptoms. Antidepressants don't work half as well for me anymore and I experience the same symptoms as I used to before I was ever put on antidepressants.
> >
> > It's so frustrating because you read that exercise is supposed to help, not make you feel worse?
> >
> > Does anyone else experience this?
> >
> >
> >
> > Denise from the UK
>
> To give my two cents... I know that if I am out of shape and start working out again, I feel terrible after my workouts (physically, not psychologically). This is a natural reaction to the stress that you are putting on your body. It is not used to it, therefore, it requires time to adapt. I'm not sure how often you work out, but overtime, if you consistently do it, you will gain endurance and may feel better. then you will be able to go 20 min on bike, 30 min, and so on. you'll then find that you get addicted to the endorphin high that working out gives you. then you will feel more energized after your workouts and more lethargic when you skip them. anyway, that is of course if there is not some other underlying biological cause to your symptoms. I don't want to make any rash judgments as I do not know everything about you :)
>
> Hope that helps a little bit. (sorry if you knew all of that already haha)
>
> -Thegron
Apparently, the responsivity to exercise of an individual with depression is as variable as their response to antidepressants. Prozac doesn't help everyone feel better. Neither does exercise. In fact, just like with Prozac, some people feel worse with exercise - often the day after a workout. This is what happens to me, especially with high-intensity resistance exercise (anaerobic). Perhaps aerobic exercise of moderate intensity would be less likely to produce a worsening of depression. One of my doctors, who was a professor at NYU, once told me that lifting weights depletes brain amines. I'm not sure if his explanation was accurate, but his observations might have been.One thing that I am sure about. There is such a thing as overtraining. An otherwise healthy person can experience a decrease in mood, motivation, and energy, as a result. Each person will have a different threshold of training intensity / volume beyond which these symptoms emerge.
- Scott
Posted by thegron on August 19, 2012, at 16:22:26
In reply to Re: Does exercise make anyone else feel worse? » thegron, posted by SLS on August 19, 2012, at 2:31:45
I firmly believe that exercise is good for everyone (barring some medical condition). However, not everyone responds well to the same exercise regimen.
As far as overtraining is concerned, it is pretty damn hard to do. I highly doubt 10 min on the bike would cause overtraining. It typically doesn't occur as an acute condition, but more likely it happens after several weeks of intense training with no rest time. Besides, overtraining carries certain overt symptoms that you can easily find online. There is a difference between overtraining and having an intense workout that your body hasn't quite adapted to yet.
-Thegron
Posted by SLS on August 19, 2012, at 18:14:41
In reply to Re: Does exercise make anyone else feel worse?, posted by thegron on August 19, 2012, at 16:22:26
> I firmly believe that exercise is good for everyone
That's a pretty global statement to make. Are you talking about depression here or about overall fitness conditioning?
> As far as overtraining is concerned, it is pretty damn hard to do.
No. It is actually pretty easy to do. Ask any bodybuilder or athlete who is in training.
> I highly doubt 10 min on the bike would cause overtraining.
I doubt that, too. However, we are not really talking about overtraining here. I used the example of overtraining as an heuristic to demonstrate that exercise can make even mentally healthy people depressed.
> It typically doesn't occur as an acute condition, but more likely it happens after several weeks of intense training with no rest time.
Overtraining can occur with a regime of three sessions per week if the exercise is intense enough. For bodybuilders, there is no such thing as a workout that is not intense. For people who are deconditioned (like me), twice a week can be the most productive workout frequency. However, even when one becomes better conditioned such that they can workout four times a week, they can still feel more depressed in response to exercise. Any systemic stress can challenge the body and brain alike.
It occurs that some people with major depressive disorder report feeling worse after a workout, whether it's once a day or once a month. I am not disposed to tell them otherwise.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on August 19, 2012, at 21:00:44
In reply to Re: Does exercise make anyone else feel worse? » thegron, posted by SLS on August 19, 2012, at 18:14:41
I may be 66 years old with arthritis, osteoporosis, bone spurs, curvature of spine but I was told that in order to condition my body to eliminate pain through PT prescribed by a spinal neurosurgeon I ride my bike 6 miles daily up and down hills with a binder on. Mowed the lawn, and walked the dogs then got on the mat on the floor and did the excercises based on my unique problems for an hour. Now I feel sooo much better. Due to rain went two days without and started to feel depressed. I have found throughout my own unique life that more than two days with out excercise is the most depressing thing I can do. When younger when I felt this and it meant get up and jog 2-3 miles and I felt like myself again. The younger days were before any ad's. Just occasional valium. To me a day without excercise is like a day without living. Phillipa
Posted by thegron on August 19, 2012, at 21:02:43
In reply to Re: Does exercise make anyone else feel worse?, posted by Phillipa on August 19, 2012, at 21:00:44
Amen to that.
Posted by SLS on August 20, 2012, at 3:16:09
In reply to Re: Does exercise make anyone else feel worse?, posted by Phillipa on August 19, 2012, at 21:00:44
> I may be 66 years old with arthritis, osteoporosis, bone spurs, curvature of spine but I was told that in order to condition my body to eliminate pain through PT prescribed by a spinal neurosurgeon I ride my bike 6 miles daily up and down hills with a binder on. Mowed the lawn, and walked the dogs then got on the mat on the floor and did the excercises based on my unique problems for an hour. Now I feel sooo much better. Due to rain went two days without and started to feel depressed. I have found throughout my own unique life that more than two days with out excercise is the most depressing thing I can do. When younger when I felt this and it meant get up and jog 2-3 miles and I felt like myself again. The younger days were before any ad's. Just occasional valium. To me a day without excercise is like a day without living. Phillipa
Well, then, it seems to me that you should consider yourself extremely fortunate to feel alive at all.
In my unique life, with the exception of a few days here and there, I haven't felt alive in over 35 years, despite my exercising vigorously for the first 15 of them. For me, my depression has been a painful walking death without relent. There has been no way out. At least you have had one.
I do not feel better after I exercise.
I do feel better after pharmacotherapy.
Now I can exercise.
Thank God.
Amen.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 20, 2012, at 9:34:25
In reply to Does exercise make anyone else feel worse?, posted by Meltingpot on August 14, 2012, at 9:18:37
Hi Denise.
How have you been?
- Scott
Posted by Chris O on August 28, 2012, at 3:00:52
In reply to Does exercise make anyone else feel worse?, posted by Meltingpot on August 14, 2012, at 9:18:37
Denise:
I struggle with intensely physicalized depression/anxiety symptoms. For me, vigorous exercise helps. When I say "vigorous," I mean, say, riding my bicycle ten miles or jogging five miles. However, even though exercise does reduce my symptoms, it is very temporary (a few hours max) and I am back to square one the next day. This makes the whole exercise endeavor frustrating to the point of discouragement long-term, as I feel that I do not improve my endurance from day to day. It's also quite difficult for me to exercise if I am under any type of stress as my anxiety/depression symptoms tend to overwhelm my ability to deal with my "exercise pain." I don't know. Mental illness sucks.
Posted by Meltingpot on August 31, 2012, at 7:00:09
In reply to Re: Does exercise make anyone else feel worse? » Meltingpot, posted by SLS on August 20, 2012, at 9:34:25
Hi Scott,
You are going to regret asking me that :-)
I'm ok, struggling really. Was better two years ago when the Seroxat seemed to be helping more with drive and motivation but the last six months or so have been feeling not so good. Have been to see a specialist in the UK and he has tried adding all sorts of medications to no avail. I once actually tried coming off all drugs for three months apart from Zyprexa now and again and off them I felt listless, apathetic, nauseous, tight chest nearly all of the time, not looking forward to much, not wanting to go out socially. Although am still able to work and sometimes work helps. Sometimes I think "I really cannot and do not want to carry on like this" I tried exercise and it really seemed to make me feel worse for three days afterwards, in that my chest feels even tighter and my breathing worse. I know it's not asthma or anything like that, just feels like really bad tension or something, like my chest is in a vice.
I'm looking into having VNS, ECT or DBS but sometimes I wonder if I'm just depressed and anxious or if there is something else going on and if that's the case am I barking up the wrong tree?
How are you? Is life getting any better for you? Are you able to work? I often think about you as you always seem so sweet (I hope you don't take offense at that :-))
Denise
Posted by Meltingpot on August 31, 2012, at 7:04:09
In reply to Re: Does exercise make anyone else feel worse?, posted by Chris O on August 28, 2012, at 3:00:52
I guess I was hoping to find somebody who felt like I did after exercise, which is really, totally drained and listless. I know exercise doesn't make me feel better, period and I have tried. I exercised when I was well and it definately didn't make me feel like it does now.
Anyway thanks for all of those who responded, just wish I knew what the hell was wrong with me.
Denise
Posted by SLS on August 31, 2012, at 8:10:54
In reply to Re: Does exercise make anyone else Scott?, posted by Meltingpot on August 31, 2012, at 7:00:09
Hi Denise.
> I'm ok, struggling really. Was better two years ago when the Seroxat seemed to be helping more with drive and motivation but the last six months or so have been feeling not so good.
You are a survivor, that's for sure. I'm glad you still have some fight left in you.
> Sometimes I think "I really cannot and do not want to carry on like this"
I know. It must feel like a very cruel trap to want to end the frustration and the pain while refusing to capitulate to thoughts suicide. There is a sort of timelessness about depression. When you are in the midst of it, it feels like there is no beginning and no end. I do hope you and your doctors can find the key to your prison. You certainly deserve to be free of depression.
Would you care to list some of the drugs that the specialist tried on you?
> I'm looking into having VNS, ECT or DBS but sometimes I wonder if I'm just depressed and anxious or if there is something else going on and if that's the case am I barking up the wrong tree?
Hmm. Have you tried rTMS (repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation)?
I have found relief using drugs that are not normally thought of as psychotropics. Both of these drugs enter the brain readily and produce changes in its physiology.
1. Prazosin - antihypertensive = NE alpha-1 receptor antagonist
2. Minocycline - antibiotic = anti-glutamatergic, anti-inflammatory, neuroprotection, neurogenesis.> How are you? Is life getting any better for you?
Yes, it is. Thanks for asking. Prazosin helped quite a bit since I began taking it 7 months ago, but I was unhappy with my rate of improvement. I began taking minocycline 18 days ago. It began working within a few days. I am very optimistic that I will continue to improve over time. I have been able to discontinue the prazosin.
It is premature for me to make any predictions of the extent to which my current treatment will yield robust and persistent improvements. I am, of course, hoping to achieve a remission that lasts indefinitely.
For minocycline to work, it might be necessary for some people to coadminister other drugs as adjuncts rather than to use it as monotherapy. I have reason to believe that my taking Lamictal (anti-glutamate) is important. Also, my taking nortriptyline (pro-noradrenergic) might be important. However, there is nothing I could find that would indicate that SSRIs are without effect. Prozac seems to be active in lab experiments. I cannot yet rule-out my taking Abilify as being a necessary component to my current improvement. The two people I know of currently responding to minocycline are both taking Lamictal and Abilify along with it. I will eventually attempt to discontinue Abilify because it causes weight gain and elevated triglycerides in me.
My current treatment regime:
Parnate 80 mg/day
nortriptyline 150 mg/day
Lamictal 200 mg/day
lithium 300 mg/day
Abilify 10 mg/day
minocycline 100 mg/day> Are you able to work?
Not yet, but I can tell that I am getting closer to doing so. Returning to work is my goal.
> I often think about you as you always seem so sweet (I hope you don't take offense at that :-))
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Meltingpot on September 18, 2012, at 8:50:35
In reply to Re: Does exercise make anyone else Scott? » Meltingpot, posted by SLS on August 31, 2012, at 8:10:54
Hi Scott,
Rather than the word 'Sweet' I should have used the word 'kind' not 'sweet' (sounds patronising) as you come across as a very kind person in your messages. Also, you always seem to be very dilligent and methodical when it comes to taking medication.
To answer you question. Here is the list of medication I have tried.
Prozac and doxepin
Mirtazapine - More anxious, still depressed.
Effexor - Anxious
Lamictal - Didn't seem to do anything.
Lithium and sertraline - Slightly better.
Seroxat 40mg - felt much better for about two years and then the anxiety came back.
Seroxat and Mirazapine - Slightly better, still not right.
Seroxat and Thyroid hormone = No change
Seroxat and Lithium - No change.
Escitalopram - was ok on it for about two years, not exactly well but not in the pits. This lasted two years and then the anxiety came back.
Seroxat and tryptophan - no change
Zyprexa - Always helps but feel sort of flat on it at times.
Seroxat and abilify - No change
Clomipramine - less anxiety after intial anxiety up to 5 weeks.
Wellbutrin - Make me more drowsy.
Klonopin (occasionally) does actually help but don't want to keep taking it and then become addicted to it, like some people seem to have been.
And I've taken others but cannot remember them exactly. My Doctor has now added 200mg trimipramine to the seroxat and I'm experiencing extreme drowsiness.I tried rTMS in Vancouver when I was quite well anyway and didn't find it to be of any benefit.
I'm glad you have found a medication to help you. Are you feeling better than you have in a long time or is it only a slight improvement?
Denise
Posted by SLS on September 18, 2012, at 10:08:42
In reply to Re: Does exercise make anyone else To Scott, posted by Meltingpot on September 18, 2012, at 8:50:35
Hi Denise.
> Hi Scott,
>
> Rather than the word 'Sweet' I should have used the word 'kind' not 'sweet' (sounds patronising) as you come across as a very kind person in your messages.I wasn't offended in the least. Coming from you, it never entererd my mind that you had meant anything other than good things. I think your calling me sweet is very sweet.
:-)
> Also, you always seem to be very dilligent and methodical when it comes to taking medication.
Not always. I can be patient if I think something has a chance of working, but become very impatient when I am convinced otherwise. After 30 years, I have come to appreciate the time it sometimes takes for positive changes to occur.
I don't see Nardil.
Effexor - what dosage and for how long? You might want to use an anxiolytic drug like Zyprexa or Klonipin temporarily while the Effexor "settles in". For you, I guess Zyprexa makes the most sense. For depression and GAD, I would say that one would want to go up to at least 300 mg/day of Effexor. If Pristiq is available, I would use that instead of Effexor. I think it may be more tolerable and more effective. However, I am dubious about the low dosages that are usually prescribed. You would want to go up to 100 mg/day as rapidly as you can tolerate. I am suspicious that higher dosages are required for many people, but the drug company doesn't want to recommend higher dosages because they assume it would be less appealing to practicioners if side effect load is increase. However, I don't think this has been observed in clinical trials. 400 mg/day seems to be tolerable.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22883315
What dosage of clomipramine did you take?
I will be interested to see what the trimipramine does for you. I tried it and did not experience any sedation at all from it.
If you have not tried Nardil yet, I think you might be missing out on an opportunity to feel well. Even Parnate might be worth a try. You would have to discontinue the Seroxat, though. You can add nortriptyline to a MAOI, but not imipramine or clomipramine.
If you haven't added a noradrenergic TCA to Seroxat, I would consider it. Trimipramine doesn't count. Nortriptyline or desipramine are preferable. Because there is a pharmacokinetic interaction between these drugs, you must take only 1/2 the dosage of TCA normally used when combined with Seroxat. This might be true of trimipramine as well. If this interaction has not been addressed by your doctor, you will need to have a conversation with him about this. You don't want to become toxic on trimipramine. You should probably start with 25 mg/day and move to 50 - 75 mg/day.
- Scott
---------------------------------------
> To answer you question. Here is the list of medication I have tried.
>
> Prozac and doxepin
> Mirtazapine - More anxious, still depressed.
> Effexor - Anxious
> Lamictal - Didn't seem to do anything.
> Lithium and sertraline - Slightly better.
> Seroxat 40mg - felt much better for about two years and then the anxiety came back.
> Seroxat and Mirazapine - Slightly better, still not right.
> Seroxat and Thyroid hormone = No change
> Seroxat and Lithium - No change.
> Escitalopram - was ok on it for about two years, not exactly well but not in the pits. This lasted two years and then the anxiety came back.
> Seroxat and tryptophan - no change
> Zyprexa - Always helps but feel sort of flat on it at times.
> Seroxat and abilify - No change
> Clomipramine - less anxiety after intial anxiety up to 5 weeks.
> Wellbutrin - Make me more drowsy.
> Klonopin (occasionally) does actually help but don't want to keep taking it and then become addicted to it, like some people seem to have been.
Posted by pedr on September 22, 2012, at 6:01:51
In reply to Does exercise make anyone else feel worse?, posted by Meltingpot on August 14, 2012, at 9:18:37
barring the many idiosyncratic things that make me feel worse during and after exercise (GERD pain, IBS-C pain etc) two things about exercise really bother me:
1/ not feeling any better. It's a horrible feeling to run around a soccer pitch for 2 hours only to feel sad and empty during and immediately after the game.
2/ the sheer number of times healthcare professionals and friends have implied that I'd feel better if I simply exercised. AH! WE'VE FOUND THE SOLUTION TO DEPRESSION - EXERCISE! EVERYONE CALL OFF THE HUNT - DEPRESSION HAS BEEN SOLVED.
This is the end of the thread.
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