![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by sunny10 on May 11, 2005, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: now you've made me cry.... » sunny10, posted by partlycloudy on May 11, 2005, at 10:28:59
how pathetic IS it that we live in a world in which we are not free to be ourselves?
That we have to live in a world where we are afraid to be ourselves?
How did the world become this way?
Posted by partlycloudy on May 11, 2005, at 14:09:02
In reply to Re: PC, posted by sunny10 on May 11, 2005, at 12:14:53
> how pathetic IS it that we live in a world in which we are not free to be ourselves?
>
> That we have to live in a world where we are afraid to be ourselves?
>
> How did the world become this way?I know, it's pretty bad, isn't it? I suppose I could call it a "Western" cultural thang, or an American Puritan holdover from the Mayflower, lol. Still, I feel lucky to have found this place where we can be ourselves.
pc
Posted by sunny10 on May 11, 2005, at 15:41:53
In reply to Re: PC » sunny10, posted by partlycloudy on May 11, 2005, at 14:09:02
Posted by AuntieMel on May 11, 2005, at 16:23:43
In reply to For Sunny: Please EVERYONE contribute, posted by PM80 on May 10, 2005, at 12:01:49
Because Sunny isn't shallow. She thinks about things before reacting (most of the time). Because she cares and is learning to care about herself.
Posted by AdaGrace on May 11, 2005, at 17:47:52
In reply to Re: For Sunny: Please EVERYONE contribute, posted by AuntieMel on May 11, 2005, at 16:23:43
I am starting to understand the "not giving up" thing. I recalled the other day that I was repeated asked to "not give up" on a certain someone. And I didn't. I look back now and I realize that I gave him everything I could, including as many chances that he asked for. In the end, he was the one who gave up. Sadly though I still haven't. We don't speak, I haven't heard from him since February, and that cold message still stings, but I haven't given up hope that one day we will be together, if only for companionship and nothing more. I have to feed this fantasy, because to let the dream die means I die as well.
So therefore, I have an announcement to make. Sunny, I admire what you are doing. To instill faith in the untrustable is something not many would or could do. I understand how much you love this man.
Now, having said that, I also understand others aprehension about your SO and the fear they have for you and your safety. It's a natural feeling to be worried about someone who seems to be jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. I know I feel that way towards you as well. But I just wanted to say that even though I feel it is very possible that this man will hurt you again in the future, I realize and understand why you are doing what you are doing. Who knows right? Who really knows but you and him......
Posted by sunny10 on May 12, 2005, at 8:47:57
In reply to Re: Synny » AuntieMel, posted by AdaGrace on May 11, 2005, at 17:47:52
In response, particularly to this...
> It's a natural feeling to be worried about someone who seems to be jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. I know I feel that way towards you as well. But I just wanted to say that even though I feel it is very possible that this man will hurt you again in the future, I realize and understand why you are doing what you are doing. Who knows right? Who really knows but you and him......>
I am counting on the T to know! I have already met with the T who will help both of us individually for anger mgmt, and then bring us together for couples counselling. I have told this T that I have serious trust issues at this point and that I am counting on him to help me see whether my SO is really committted to make things work with me IN A NON-MANIPULATIVE WAY or not. Of course the T said that he will help me figure that out and that he doesn't believe in charging money for couples counselling that is never going to result in a happy couple!I am truly not going in blind, here... I am relying on a professional, licensed psychologist.
Obviously, I do not live in a vacuum- I know about the cycles of abuse, Narcissists, et cetera.
I absolutely want to be sure that I am not planning a life with one of them. That's precisely why I'm bringing in the professional!Does that make anyone feel any better about my safety? To some exent, I AM jumping from the pan into the fire (maybe towards a truth that I don't want to see)... but I've got a fireman (the anger mgmt T) lined up to put it out if the fire spreads instead of going out on its own, and an EMT on standby to help me deal with yet another loss in my life if this doesn't work out with my SO (separate T).
Can you think of any safer way for me to get the answer I seek (one way of the other)?
If I don't try, I will feel as if I failed- I will also wonder for the rest of my life if I threw away slightly damaged goods that would have been perfect for me had they been repaired...
Posted by AdaGrace on May 13, 2005, at 9:21:11
In reply to Re: Synny » AdaGrace, posted by sunny10 on May 12, 2005, at 8:47:57
First of all please forgive my typo of your name......sounds like SIN ny.....LOL
I understand what you are saying and I think you have taken a positive, intelligent approach. Just because I am a pesamist at times, does not mean I am right, nor should you or anyone listen to me. I really think what I was trying to say was that sticking it out, is your choice not mine.
I don't think I would be any different actually. Giving up without exhausting all avenues would definitely make me wonder "what if".
I think a lot of you, you know, and I don't want to see you get hurt, but in the same sense, I don't want you to miss out on an oppotunity for true happyness.
AdaGrace
Posted by sunny10 on May 13, 2005, at 10:19:59
In reply to Re: SynnyWho Is That???? » sunny10, posted by AdaGrace on May 13, 2005, at 9:21:11
sometimes I FEEL "sinny"... typo didn't bother me at all !!!
You're in my thoughts and prayers, too, Gracie!!!
Whatever will be will be....except I won't end up murdered!!! Thus the taking action part!!!
Thanks for caring, I know that's why you guys caution me.
If my best interests weren't in your thoughts, you wouldn't reply at all- I know that.
I'm not upset that everyone is cautioning me; I am very comforted to know that there are people out there who care.
I love you guys, too!!!
-sunny10
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 13, 2005, at 16:30:46
In reply to Sunny » 10derHeart, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 10, 2005, at 16:08:26
> You always seem to have a kind word and time for anyone who needs it, no matter what you yourself are going through. And you are the same exact age as I am too!
Actually, that's not true, you have a kind word for everyone but me, you tell me to be nice..
Miss Bossypants! You think you are soooo big.(There do you feel like a big sister now?)
*grin*
Posted by sunny10 on May 17, 2005, at 9:39:49
In reply to Re: Sunny, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 13, 2005, at 16:30:46
more like a fool....
more and more lately...
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 17, 2005, at 14:43:19
In reply to Re: » Gabbi-x-2, posted by sunny10 on May 17, 2005, at 9:39:49
> more like a fool....
>
> more and more lately...Ummm....
You wanna talk about that a bit? Sounds like it might do you some good to express yourself.
Lar
Posted by sunny10 on May 17, 2005, at 14:46:21
In reply to Re: » sunny10, posted by Larry Hoover on May 17, 2005, at 14:43:19
Posted by Damos on May 17, 2005, at 17:04:47
In reply to Re:there are no words today, but thanks (nm) » Larry Hoover, posted by sunny10 on May 17, 2005, at 14:46:21
Thought you might need a hug. Was actually wondering how you were doing and hoping things were okay. Anything, anytime - just shout.
XOXOXOXO
Damos
Posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 9:33:02
In reply to ((((((((((Sunny10)))))))))) » sunny10, posted by Damos on May 17, 2005, at 17:04:47
thanks for the hug.
Everything is the same as last week.
I am just so tired of being locked into a state of waiting.
I have promised to give my SO this time (until June 15th) to gather his own thoughts and not talk about "the future of us", but it is so hard to bite my tongue when he says things that are ambiguous.
He says things like, "we should also check out Texas by the beaches- we don't have to move to Hawaii to live at the beach and have great weather year 'round", to "we should go back to Rehobeth Beach this summer- we really liked it there last year", to "I can only deal with the actual beach for a couple of hours, then I want to show off and take my beautiful woman off the beach to make love and everyone will be jealous", to "it's really great that I can work my schedule around my new rock climbing partner. He has family obligations, but now there's only one family to schedule around instead of two".
Any of those statements could be taken any number of ways, both positive and negative (though the last one can only be positive if it was a test to see if I would react- he needs to feel loved, too) but I can't ask questions- I've been asked to give him time. And since I know that he HAS these anger management issues BECAUSE he's got so much on his mind, it wouldn't help if I bent my own promised boundary.
That's the downside to boundaries.... sometimes they tie your hands. But it is important to me to be a person of my word. How can I expect HIM to keep promises if I can't?!?
So I wait. I wait to see if he is really going to keep his promise of going to the therpaist. If he can go with an open mind, he WILL get help, he WILL get some help in dealing with the fact that he gave up his entire lifestyle of the preceding twelve years. It was his choice to make these changes, (he knows that he has outgrown this lifestyle) but we all know that change is hard- even if we know we need it.
He makes 15 dollars less per hour. He no longer sees the friends that he saw EVERY EVENING. He doesn't "shoot over to Boulder for a concert with his buddies" a couple of times a month, doesn't hang out with buddies to "do recreational drugs". We are talking MAJOR lifestyle changes, here, and he doesn't talk about them with me- probably because he thinks that I will feel either at fault because he moved here "for me" or, at the very least, under pressure to "replace" what he has lost in some way.
But the upshot is that either way, I'm the one that deals with the repercussions of the emotions that bottle up inside of him. I'd prefer to hear him talk and deal with the "feel guilty or not" scenario than get strangled when he's drunk!!!
I'd rather have him talk to a professional to help him deal with it!
So- I made that "time boundary" to make him feel safe and to give myself some time, too. Now I have to deal with not needing as much time as he- but needing answers. Answers that HE can probably not answer, anyway- but the therapist will, as we are seeing the same one for the purpose of turning individual therapy into couples therapy ONLY IF the T determines that my SO is NOT just a manipulator. I have found that I am not a very good judge of character when it comes to my love life. I need to let the professionals make the distinction this time. Because I love my SO, but, other than a rare few, everyone is telling me to drop him like a hot potato. Oh well...time will tell.
I am just hating the waiting. I am as alternately paranoid and loving as I was this time last month...
Waiting, waiting...
Posted by damos on May 19, 2005, at 2:54:35
In reply to Re: ((((((((((Damos)))))))))), posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 9:33:02
> thanks for the hug.
Hey, it was my pleasure. Sorry it wasn't IRL as you could probably use it by the sound of things.
> Everything is the same as last week.
>
> I am just so tired of being locked into a state of waiting.I'm sorry to hear that, waiting really sux, especially when it feels like your whole life is on hold.
> I have promised to give my SO this time (until June 15th) to gather his own thoughts and not talk about "the future of us", but it is so hard to bite my tongue when he says things that are ambiguous.So what, that'll be around 2 months he's had to get his act together. Even for a bloke you'd think that that'd be long enough. At least it should be long enough for to make a decision not to muck someone else around while you get your act together.
> He says things like, (1)"we should also check out Texas by the beaches- we don't have to move to Hawaii to live at the beach and have great weather year 'round", to (2)"we should go back to Rehobeth Beach this summer- we really liked it there last year", to (3)"I can only deal with the actual beach for a couple of hours, then I want to show off and take my beautiful woman off the beach to make love and everyone will be jealous", to (4)"it's really great that I can work my schedule around my new rock climbing partner. He has family obligations, but now there's only one family to schedule around instead of two".Hmmm, gotta say I don't much like the sound of (3) as it kinda makes it sound as though you're there just to support his self image and ego. The others are kinda confusing too - nothing quite like mixed messages to add insult to injury.
> Any of those statements could be taken any number of ways, both positive and negative (though the last one can only be positive if it was a test to see if I would react- he needs to feel loved, too) but I can't ask questions- I've been asked to give him time. And since I know that he HAS these anger management issues BECAUSE he's got so much on his mind, it wouldn't help if I bent my own promised boundary.
Whoa!!!! Now hang on just a minute. He has anger management issues because he has anger management issues. The stuff that's on his mind only exacerbates and/or triggers the anger off. The way he does or doesn't deal with stuff is separate to the stuff - okay. Please forgive me if I get preachy here, I care is all.
I do think you've got the right to express confusion at the mixed messages, since he's the one bring up plans for the future when 'you're not talking about the future.' And if he's just trying to bait you with some of the comments, well that's just as low act all things considered and you deserve better.
> That's the downside to boundaries.... sometimes they tie your hands. But it is important to me to be a person of my word. How can I expect HIM to keep promises if I can't?!?
>
> So I wait. I wait to see if he is really going to keep his promise of going to the therpaist. If he can go with an open mind, he WILL get help, he WILL get some help in dealing with the fact that he gave up his entire lifestyle of the preceding twelve years. It was his choice to make these changes, (he knows that he has outgrown this lifestyle) but we all know that change is hard- even if we know we need it.Sounds like espoused theory and theory in use to me. I say one thing cause that's what I know people want to hear (espoused theory), but I continue to act in ways that conflict with my words because that's the way I really want to be (theory in use), and everyone should just get used to it. I work with a bunch of them. The longer he puts it off, well you know the answer.
> He makes 15 dollars less per hour. He no longer sees the friends that he saw EVERY EVENING. He doesn't "shoot over to Boulder for a concert with his buddies" a couple of times a month, doesn't hang out with buddies to "do recreational drugs". We are talking MAJOR lifestyle changes, here, and he doesn't talk about them with me- probably because he thinks that I will feel either at fault because he moved here "for me" or, at the very least, under pressure to "replace" what he has lost in some way.He didn't do anything "for you" okay. He did what he wanted to - no-one forced him to. Maybe all he really chose to do was run from one thing he wasn't prepared to deal with into another where all that stuff is creating another situation that he's not really prepared to deal with, other than by using the same broken processes. Don't know, can't judge.
> But the upshot is that either way, I'm the one that deals with the repercussions of the emotions that bottle up inside of him. I'd prefer to hear him talk and deal with the "feel guilty or not" scenario than get strangled when he's drunk!!!Responsibility - the ability to choose your response. Getting drunk and/or violent is irresponsible in the extreme as is prejudging someone elses response to something and then *beating* them up about what you've decided.
> I'd rather have him talk to a professional to help him deal with it!
>
> So- I made that "time boundary" to make him feel safe and to give myself some time, too. Now I have to deal with not needing as much time as he- but needing answers. Answers that HE can probably not answer, anyway- but the therapist will, as we are seeing the same one for the purpose of turning individual therapy into couples therapy ONLY IF the T determines that my SO is NOT just a manipulator. I have found that I am not a very good judge of character when it comes to my love life. I need to let the professionals make the distinction this time. Because I love my SO, but, other than a rare few, everyone is telling me to drop him like a hot potato. Oh well...time will tell.
>
> I am just hating the waiting. I am as alternately paranoid and loving as I was this time last month...
>
> Waiting, waiting...I really feel for you Sunny. It's a lot to carry on your own and still get on with living as best you can. I'm proud and amazed by you, and I'd happily telepathetically transport myself to your couch and wait with you anytime if it helped.
Take care sweet girl. Hoping for good things for you
XOXOXOX
Damos
Posted by sunny10 on May 19, 2005, at 9:57:39
In reply to Re: Waiting, Waiting........ » sunny10, posted by damos on May 19, 2005, at 2:54:35
yes, the mixed messages are the worst part, I think... But then, maybe I overanalyze things...lots of other things were discussed over two nights and a day and a half... these are what stick in my mind. But I know it's a slightly faulty mind, you see!
The Time Will Tell thing you mentioned- "the longer it takes..." well, I have imposed a cut-off time for myself... I told him that, yes, I would wait until he moved into his own place. And that he could make his first appointment right after he moves.
But I DIDN'T tell him that I am only giving him until the 15th to make that appointment. That's my own personal cutoff. If he hasn't made one by then, than he is obviously not as committed to this relationship as I am.
He ALSO doesn't know that I have ordered a hair analysis drug testing kit. He gave me a reason to not trust him when he said that he wasn't doing drugs anymore (then turned out he was- over three months ago, twice), so the only way I will know if I can trust him again is to test his hair. The drinking too much thing started after the drug incidents. Substituting one high for another has occurred to me. So has self-medicating.
He wears it very short (I cut his hair for him with the clippers), so his current hair will show whether or not he has used in the last month or so. He has it continually buzzed, so it will be safe to assume that he doesn't have any hair left that was on his head three months ago when I caught him.
I know this sounds like I should just give up on him- gee, sunny10, sounds like you can't trust him so what are you waiting for? But the truth is that I HAVE been known to be paranoid and disbelieving in the past and proven wrong...If he WAS drinking too much to substitute for the coke, then I am wrong- maybe I haven't heard him sniffing in the bathroom (there's an exhaust fan in there- a really loud one, too) hard to say if I actually hear something or I'm hearing what I think I might hear instead of what is actually there to be heard). I believe my pain at being deceived has caused some paranoia. I have gone looking for proof since finding it those two times and come up with nothing, so there is a chance that I AM paranoid, not just paranoid about being paranoid, if you see what I mean. (What has happened to me? I used to make sense...)
I am hoping that I can prove myself wrong, here, and that I can trust my judgement when it comes to my SO's character. But I DON'T trust my judgement...I don't know whether I'm paranoid but right about his moral character, or if he really can't be trusted and my judgement is impaired. If the test comes out positive, then I can't trust my character judgement and will walk away- straight to the therapist's chair! And if it comes out negative, I will STILL walk to my therapist's chair to discuss paranoia...
I AM thinking about ME and what is in my best interest, don't worry.
Yes, he's got issues- so do I. If I was perfectly well-adjusted, I wouldn't have come looking for support at Babble!!
On the other hand- wouldn't it be so great to not think at all and just give away my cat, sell my belongings and just take a plane to your place after a stop at Susan47's????
Ah, the power of a great daydream...The curse of overdeveloped "fight or flight" instinct.
Only problem with it is that everywhere I go; there I am...
Better learn to stay put and deal with who I am and try to learn to like myself, trust myself, and take care of myself...
From the steps I outlined for you above, I think it's pretty clear that I am at least trying to take care of myself, trust myself, and therefore like myself... What the actual outcome will be? Well, that I don't know yet... The jury is still out on that one!
I'm just doing the best that I can...
((((((Damos))))))
Posted by Damos on May 19, 2005, at 18:21:11
In reply to Re: Waiting, Waiting........ » damos, posted by sunny10 on May 19, 2005, at 9:57:39
Funny isn't it. We can put up with people who are consistantly horrible, mean etc, but the one thing most people find really difficult to deal with is people who are inconsistent in their words and actions, you know they swing between nice one minute and horrible the next.
Ahhh yes, over analysing, now there's a familiar concept - way too familiar. My particular trick was (is) to turn everything someone does back into analysis of what I did to cause them to be tlike that. Just know that your mind will want to really latch onto stuff that fits into existing patterns, and once it;s got those sorted it'll work on trying to squeese the rest into something familiar to - which surprisingly requires a little distorting and reinterpretting of events to make them fit. So don't beat yourself up too much about it. One of the reasons we make consistently bad choices is because it becomes a pattern that we seek because of it's familiarity. Yep, even though it's painfull. Kinda like the self is saying, "I am pain and suffering, so I need to have that to be real."
I'm glad you've set an internal limit to your suffering on this one. Being prepared for the worst isn't giving up - not in any way. It's the self protection people like us need to do sometimes. We shouldn't have to, but we need to. Never having submitted myself to therapy I honestly don't know how I would be in his place. I probably wouldn't go, but I would have told you that straight up. If I really loved you and wanted this to work, I probably would have agreed to go to couples therapy to at least to give it a chance. You would have known I wasn't exactly thrilled about the idea though. I'm nearly 41 and am only just beginning to learn to talk about myself, don't do it much but am getting better. Part of it in my case is thinking that you're so pathetic that no-one would be interested in the first place, and never having been asked as a kid and actively encouraged not to express any sort of feeling or emotion. I think part of my not going is harm minimisation of sorts. It's as though the labels and processes and stuff that are likely to come out of it will just add more grist to the mill by making me believe other things about myself or see myself in more ways that only and to the problems. Not that I think I can fix everything myself or that I don't need it.
The paranoia and trust stuff is tuff, especially if you're carrying past stuff into the present. You can only judge yourself and him by what is happening now. To be trusted you first have to be trustworthy. I couldn't do the drug testing thing, but I'm not in your position and haven't been through what you have in your life and this relationship, and haven't ever been with a drug user. If it's something you feel you need to do and you're internally okay with it and it's ramifications, then do what you need to do. Personally, the fact that I doubted someone that much would be enough. But I aint you, and no matter what I won't think any less of you. Just try to stay in awareness and focused on the moment to stave off the paranoia. If he's in the bathroom, try to focus not on what might or might not be happening in there, but on what you are doing. One of the methods I use when I find myself going of on other mental tracks is to label. It's really silly but it does actually help. For example if my attention is drawn to the sound of a car outside I'll say to myself 'Listening, Listening, Listening' and I'll mentally label every motion for simple things like drinking a cup of coffee, "Reaching, grasping, holding, lifting, sipping, swallowing...." and if I'm eating or drinking or whatever I try to experience it with my whole being. It's really hard at times but I know the way I am with people is much better now as I try to be completely there, not physically there and mentally and emotionally somewhere else. Loving and past hurts automatically mean our judgement is impaired, so agsin don't beat yourself up too much. We want to believe what we want to believe, regardless whether it's good or bad for us in the long run. I still don't believe that M******* is a bad person, I still love her very much 22 years on. But she is trouble, danger, hurt and pain for me and I had to let it go. It took a long, long time to accept it no matter how much I wanted the truth to be different I couldn't make it so. The worst part is I always knew it deep down inside but did everything I could to deny and distort it. Last nights episode of lost brought it back to me when Boon had the experience of imagining his sister dead and Lock asked how he felt, he said relieved. Sadly that's how I feel now that M and I hadly talk or anything - relieved. G*d I hate admitting that, it really hurts. BTW M was also one for never admitting that she'd ever done anything that hurt anyone and constantly making dreams for the next big thing - stilll is by all accounts - her son and I are still pretty close. Sad to think he considers me the only stable male figure in his life.
BTW, I don't honestly think there is such a thing as perfectly well-adjusted. I think it's a myth, and like they say faulty foundations make for unsound buildings. And most of foundations due to parental and other influences as we were growing up seems to have undermined many of our foundations. But like with old building you can shore 'em up and re-stump them or put in new piers. It's a lot of work but it can be done.
Yeh, it would be nice to have a visitor, my housemate would go apoplectic but what else is new. Funny, I have the same problem about being everywhere I go - what's with that???
Sounds like we're running parallel programs Sunny. but I think you're being way braver than me.
Just hoping good things come your way. My thoughts, hopes and wishes are with you.
(((((Sunny10)))))
Posted by sunny10 on May 20, 2005, at 13:37:08
In reply to Re: Waiting, Waiting........ » sunny10, posted by Damos on May 19, 2005, at 18:21:11
Brave is not a word that applies here...
stupid might
self-protective might
optimistic might
pessimistic might
analytical might
paranoid might
emotional might
loving might
non-loving mightbut brave doesn't apply...
It MIGHT apply on June 15th... if I have to end the relationship.
You mentioned that therapy wouldn't be an option for you. Would you please read my last post to Dinah about men and respond to it? I'm asking because you mention not being comfortable about feelings and I really want your biased response. Funny favor to ask, isn't it? A biased response?
Yes, last pattern stuff and familiarity sound so much like me, too, that it's scary. I don't WANT to be that person. And I especially don't want to attract the "same" lover over and over. And, yes, I am concerned about having done that with my SO which is why I am trying to "answer to" my paranoia. But I will try the "do anything I can to "not listen". Although I think it's important to me that you understand that I ordered the drug test kit because he deceived me in the past about his use. It is the only thing that I know he lied to me about.
Chemical abusers get out of control and have physically harmed me- and have harmed millions of other people in the world! AND how do you build a future with someone who may overdose the next time they decide to "let go"? They continue to take that chance because "that would never happen to me" is their mantra!
I would like, more than anything, to be wrong. To have that test come back negative. Being able to trust again would be much easier. Because he will have proven himself trustworthy. I will know that I can trust his word- and I don't know that right now. Especially ever since the strangling episode. Experiencing that forced me to "do I really know this person" mode. It forced me to find out whether he needs to deal with his issues to go back to the man I used to know, or if I was always wrong about him. It became imperative to my physical wellbeing as well as my happiness.
Maybe I want to believe desperately in our love. Yes, yes I DO want to believe in our love. But I don't have a great track record of dealing with these things on an emotional level. So this time I am going with the intellectual and logical level.
I got the impression that you feel the drug testing is an invasion of my SO's privacy. If I am projecting here, forgive me, but I must answer this as well.
Committing to a relationship with me in which there would be no drug use takes away the privacy issue. He may not "privately" indulge because he promised me that he wouldn't. And I caught him deceiving me in the past, after which he reiterated that promise to not do anymore drugs. And I asked him if he is doing drugs again now that we do not live together and he said no. I am less testing his drug use than I am testing whether or not he is being truthful.
When I give my word and break it, I expect to need to prove my innocence next time. It is part of making amends to the person I've injured.
-sunny10
Posted by Damos on May 22, 2005, at 17:50:22
In reply to Re: long........ » Damos, posted by sunny10 on May 20, 2005, at 13:37:08
Hey Sunny10,
Sorry to be so long replying - no access to the net over the weekend.
It's always brave to stand and fight for what you believe in - no matter the outcome.
This is a hard one. firstly I have to say to say that in the last 2 & a bit years I've got much better at talking about feelings & stuff, but I 've still got a long way to go. The important thing was accepting that not doing so had done a lot of damage over the years and not only to me.
Thinking about it, what I do with my energetic healer is therapy of sorts. She helps me to speak about stuff and recognise things and work to undo and build anew where required. The funny thing is I chose her totally by intuition and the being able to talk to her is all about trust and faith and not feeling like I'm being classified as this or that and worked accordingly. It's just like 2 people talking. The other one I saw was too and she helped a lot with some relationship stuff. I also have to be honest at this point and say that nothing I have seen IRL or here really fills me with confidence about the value of 'therapy'. I think a while back I said my GP & the P-doc I saw agreed that I would get no value out of therapy until I decided I'd get value out of it. To say I would never go is too strong, because I sense a day not too far off when I will.
Sorry, back to what you were saying to Dinah. Yes I think scripting plays a huge part, and it's really hard to want someone to be different after 25 years. I don't honestly believe that changing our behaviour will fundamentally change the other person, it may provide the opportunity for them to act and respond differently, but who they are doesn't change. In my own case, my housemate comes at me with the same stuff over and over and over and gets the same response over and over and over - but never tries any other way, even though my response is "you know I don't respond well to that." Go figure. A different tack or approach surely can't hurt. I'm not getting at what I'm trying to say - it's a face-to-face conversation not a written response thing. Sorry. But I do kind of agree with what you said to Dinah we can get stuck in ruts in the ways we speak and interact with each other and it happens across the specturm of human interractions. Damn it, I'll go back and print it off and try and give you a better answer.
Sunny, hope you didn't get the wrong message about the testing kit thing. What I was trying to say was that I probably wouldn't have done it because of how it would make me feel about me and how I'd got to this point. He gave up his right to privacy a) when he repeated lied & used b) when he hurt you phyically. Your self protection comes first, last and always. As I said before I've never been in you shoes and don't know how I'd be in your place so I'm not judging you in any way. You do what you feel you need to okay. In his place I probably would have submitted to the tests because proving myself to you and regaining your trust would have been so important.
I can only imagine what it's like to be loved so much and by someone who is willing to do so much to make things work. I hope he knows how lucky he is - I really do.
Damos
Posted by Damos on May 23, 2005, at 2:11:23
In reply to Re: long........ » sunny10, posted by Damos on May 22, 2005, at 17:50:22
Hi Sunny,
Let's try again. Having re-read your note a few times now and thought about me and my situations, I have to agree in general with what you said. Also have to say I might go out and buy the book too - can't hurt surely.
I have definitely found that as I have worked on me and how I relate to others, the way they relate to me has changed too. But my proviso - and it's a big one, is that in a 'relationship' both parties have to want to genuinely move things forward. You need to be prepared for the other person to be playing along hoping you'll "snap out of it" soon. You know, the "I'll just humour them for a bit" thing. Personally the relationships I've created in the last couple of years since I've really started to work on me in a conscious way have been significantly better and the old patterns seem to be starting to fall away - slowly. Still there but I can see them now before I stumble into them. The hard part is to change in ways that are true to who you are and how you want to be and that don't compromise you or manipulate the other person in anyway. The biggest problem comes when the other person doesn't want to and sees no reason to change. You know, "this is who I am and if you've got a problem with it then that's your problem." Or they believe that talking the talk is enough. All we can do is provide the opportunity for change within the relationship and take the responsibility for changing ourselves in ways we believe are necessary. I can say that my relationship with my housemate is shot to h*ll and has no hope of redemption for all sorts of reasons, part of which is my growing as a person and them not wanting me to.
As a bloke I can honestly say that the term "emotional intimacy" doesn't mean a lot to me, so there's not much point expecting it or asking for it, and that's really only because it's not something boys/men are brought up doing. Because of this sometimes it's not that we don't want to be "x" we just don't understand what the h*ll "x" is in the language of our experience, and sometimes you're just too damn subtle for us. Like anything, learning to talk about ourselves and our feelings is a steep learning curve and not a comfortable one because we feel clumsy and awkward and incredibly at risk doing it. Not having the words to explain the things doesn't help either and this is not uncommon because we're not used to using that language. That's why I struggle here sometimes and don't respond to threads I want to - I just don't have the words to communicate what's inside. I think if you are in an honest relationship with what Stephen Covey would call and good balance in your "emotional bank account" it could work and work well. If however, you're in a relationship where one party is well and truly overdrawn on the account and there is low - no trust there is a problem, as there is if the other person doesn't acknowledge with genuineness and sincerity that there even is a problem. I think I said it before it's not only that the person knows that what they're doing will hurt you, but that knowing this they still did it anyway, i.e. didn't care enough not to. This doesn't even cover knew it, did it, lied about it, and aren't really sorry for anything other than the disruption to normal programming.
Like you I am giulty of letting people walk all over me for way too long and it's hard to unlearn that. People who we've allowed to do it also tend not to take us seriously when we do either. But we have to try to be what we want to be and have the relationships we want to have and people have to be willing to grow with us or go cause we don't choose to be that person anymore.
My newest friends are ones that I am growing with some I've whom I 've 'known' for a long time but am actually just really getting to know.
We can but try.
Posted by sunny10 on May 23, 2005, at 10:42:15
In reply to Re: long.......(take 2). » Damos, posted by Damos on May 23, 2005, at 2:11:23
Yes, I was just getting at being true to ourselves and asking for what we want in ways that our SO's/spouses/kids/bosses understand. That's what the book is about.
Being a good conversationalist starts with knowing the person you're speaking to, right? So, like you say, if your roommate would even TRY to communicate with you in a different manner, maybe you WOULD respond differently. As you say, if I ask you to do/act like "x", but you have no idea what "x" means to US, there's no way you can do as we ask, is there?
But here's a real life example of two people miscommunicating because they are not paying attention to the needs of the other party...Both parties guilty... I've mentioned that my SO is living at his mom's and stepfather's house until his moving day, June 1. Well, they just left on Friday morning to go away for ten days and left my SO to dogsit for them. So he invites me over for "dinner and a sleepover", and whatever we decide to do for the evening- you know what I mean; not just a booty call- a "trip to our vacation home". We did this last year, too..
I arrive and he is just so giddy that I get nervous. Is he doing coke again? (My fault; I jumped to conclusions, but I haven't seen him giddy since the night before we went away and before that the coke incidents- none of those times ended very well for me.) So I decide to just see what happens. I tell myself to calm down and go with the flow.
A little later on, I am chatting while he is making dinner (I'm very lucky; he feels preparing food is very "Zen" and has become a really good cook. Much better than me, that's for sure!) I ask him for a favor. I ask if we can coordinate him dropping me off at the hospital on his way to work and picking me up when I call after recovery on August 11th. He just says, sure, he's been at this job long enough now that it will be no big deal. I am going to get my tubes tied- I know I don't want anymore children- and we have discussed it, but now that I have actually set the date, I expected him to ask me if I was nervous, or how I felt about it or something- anything...I was hurt that he didn't acknowledge ME, just acknowledged the date.
We took the dog out for a walk and when he noticed how quiet I was being, he asked me why. I told him that I was hurt that he answered the logistical question, but didn't say anything about how I might be feeling about it. He just said that we'd talked about it before; he didn't know that I needed to talk about it again and told me I should have just said so at the time instead of beig upset for an hour more than I had to. I am still guilty of needing him to TRY to see things from my point of view, but had to concede the point that I should have just said so at the time.
Then a little later, we were sitting around after dinner, the dog had been walked and fed, wine had been consumed and we started taling about our current geographical area. My SO has travelled a lot all over the US, I haven't. He were comparing the Philadelphia area to the Indianapolis area. The key here is that I've never BEEN to Indy. I was relying on him to explain the differences so I could learn what Indy was like. And I was getting confused because I thought he was comparing city AND suburbs here to just the city there, so I started asking questions about what he meant by "Indy's city limits", and that it sounded like he was including where he had lived as city, but sounded like a suburb to me, like we live in the suburbs outside of Philly, because it was the only concept I could get in my head based on what he was saying about cornfields and stuff. I was trying to understand the contrasts and comparisons he was making because I really wasn't clear on WHAT he was comparing and contrasting. All the sudden he told me he was starting to get insulted. I was floored. I thought I was insulting myself (or at least admitting to my ignorance of US geography) and HE is insulted?!? And I told him that. Then he "explained" that in my ignorance I was asking insulting questions and that I shouldn't ask questions the way that I do. I'm not sure I understand in what way I worded my questions badly, but I felt that he was treating me like a child. I told him that he didn't have a right to treat me like a child and "correct me". He told me I was being ridiculous, that he had insulted many people in HIS own ignorance at times. And I left- I was stupid AND ridiculous?!? I called him from my cell phone as I pulled away and told his voice mail that when he wanted a relationship with an equal, he should call me back. In the meantime, he was calling ME. I switched over to incoming call and let him speak. He was saying that we did have problems communicating and that we needed to work on it, but that I shouldn't have just left. (I have explained that I am a "runner", haven't I? And, yes, I know it's not a good way to be...darnit, I'm working on it, but it gets a little scary now to argue that bitterly since the New Orleans debacle... it will take me some time to get over it.)
Anyway, I'm turning around and driving back because he's still trying to tak to me on the cell phone and he is breaking up, so I tell him I'm hanging up and that it's because I can't hear him and am coming back to the house. He says ok. It's two minutes back to the house and when I get there, the front door is closed and locked- it was open when I left- and when he answers the doorbell, he is stepping out of the bathroom behind the front door. I finally ask him, after wondering all night, if he's been doing coke again, is that why he's so agitated and why he was so giddy when I first got there.
He tells me that if I have to ask that I should "get the f*ck out." I ask him if he doesn't think I have the right to ask at this point, he's yelling over my voice and goes into the bathroom and sticks his eyes under the light and is yelling, "do they look dilated to you? Didn't you watch me eat dinner? Get the f*ck out." So I say that no, his eyes don't look dilated and I try to calm him down, admit to being paranoid, but he's yelling- and telling me not to come any closer to him and telling me to "please leave if that's what you think of me. You know where the door is and I'm asking you to leave. I want you to leave right now". So I do, I walk out saying sadly that I didn't want a relationship with someone who treated me like a child, anyway. He's still yelling, really, so I doubt he heard me.
I try to call him again when I get home and get the couple of rings before it goes to voicemail. I ask him if the past month was all just a set-up (That "going along with it for now" thing you mentioned). I told him that I don't know that I believe that he ever meant to follow through with the therapy that HE suggested in the first place. I drink more wine (I am depressed, all I can think is that I've done it again- picked another person that's no good for me. I become convinced that this will never change. I want to die. I can't believe that he wanted me to come back to talk, but that when I tried to talk about how paranoid I was, he threw me out of his life. I was shocked, yet, somehow not.) I started fantasizing about hot baths and razorblades. About never having to go through this again. I call his voice mail back and tell him that I understand that everything is all my fault and that I always pick the wrong people to love. It has gone straight to voicemail this time- he has turned off his phone.
Then he starts calling me... telling me that he loves me, telling me we just need to learn to communicate better, then that he is afraid that my messages were becoming "dark"- to call him back if I needed to talk. He is calling from the house phone now. I call his cell phone back and tell his voice mail that he can stop calling me and pretending to care- that if he loved me he wouldn't treat me the way that he did. I know that, by then, I sounded tired and emotionless. But I also know that it's past his "bedtime". I know that he has to work Saturday morning, so I correctly guess that his lastest message was the last. I drink enough wine to be too tired to kill myself. I go to sleep.
The phone wakes me in the morning. I let the voice mail get it again. When I get up- not long after that- I listen to the message and hear him saying that he got my message to stop calling him and if that's really what I want he will, sadly, stop calling me. That this will be his last call. But he's unhappy about it and hopes that I will call him.
I am so emotionally drained at this point that I call him back and ask him why he wants to keep calling me, anyway. That it was pretty obvious after the night before that he doen't even LIKE me. We can't even have a conversation anymore. That he threw me out of his life the night before, so why does he care if we stop speaking? I say.
So he told me that we DO need to learn to communicate better. That he threw me out because the conversation was only going downhill and that he threw me out because he was afraid of really losing his temper again. He said he was afraid of how much worse it could have gone if I had stayed and if the argument escalated. That he was afraid of hurting me again- and he absolutley did not want to hurt me again- that he was afraid of himself. So I told him that he should have SAID so at the time. I told him that he said it like he never wanted to see me again- EVER. And he thanked me for bringing that to his attention. He said that wasn't what he had meant at all and that he was glad I brought it to his attention because he needed examples of how he was miscommunicating while angry. He apologized. I told him that if he really wanted to have examples, that he could have hugged me and said, "oh, I didn't mean it that way" when I got upset in the first place about being told that I insulted him. I had been so shocked that I couldn't think straight. I had TOLD him at the time that I was so shocked that he took my questions that way, and now I explained that instead of giving me a hug when he heard that he had shocked me, he had proceeded to tell me how NOT to insult him next time. And that only made me feel like he was treating me like a child. He sighed and said that I was right, things COULD have gone a lot differently from there if he had gone with taking care of my feelings instead of trying to point out what I had done wrong. He said that we are both bullheaded and we need to go to the therapy. That we both need to learn how to hold on to our sense of self (and right to opinions) without hurting each other in the process. He asked me if I was still willing to give it a try. He told me that he realized that a lot of what I was feeling for the rest of that evening was because he didn't recognize my need to talk about how the surgery would affect me- that he should have taken into consideration that he had already bruised my feelings and should probably have tried to be a little nicer and a lot less argumentative. He knew that he was wrong for not looking at my face at the time and seeing that I needed him to at least acknowledge the fact that I was having a surgery for the BOTH of us! That he was probably trying to "be right" to make up for being wrong earlier and that if I thought about it, I would recognize that I do it, too. That it's something that we both need to work on because we're both used to others treating us like dirt in the past, and trying to "be right to stick up for ourselves", but that we need to learn to communicate "in the moment".
He is right- we both do it. And then he asked me if I would "please consider trying last night over again tonight". Starting fresh, just trying to enjoy each other's company. That he had to go back to work (and he did- he had been speaking with me for about twenty minutes and he only works 8-12 on Saturdays; I knew he had work to do), but we should please consider keeping last night in mind, and try to be kinder to each other today. He asked me to think about it while he finished the last few hours at work. He told me he'd call me back when he was finished work. When he called to ask again, I told him I was willing to work on it if he was.
And we had a really good rest of the weekend until last night. We went to a wonderful concert last night. Alison Kraus and Union Station with Jeff Douglas. It was amazing (I love Alison Kraus- especially singing her stuff), but I fell back into paranoia about the whole drug thing. Concerts were always a big drug time for him in the past and I just got paranoid. So you see, we fought, talked it out, made up, and I'm STILL paranoid. Gosh, I just hate it... He didn't do anything wrong. He just got excited about the music (which is his "thing", music) and was much more awake at "past nine" at night than he usually is, and happened to be at a concert where we could smell that occasional joint being smoked.... That's all it took to spark me. I can't stand me this way.
Yes, I understand what you mean about how I have to feel about MYSELF to have ordered the drug test...
I think I truly hate myself... before I think I just didn't think very highly of myself. Now I'm beginning to hate myself. Good thing I have an appointment with my "me T" tomorrow, I guess.
I don't know how to begin trusting again. But I know I can't live not trusting anyone for the rest of my life. I'm just not hard-wired that way. It's not who I AM. It's not who I'm comfortable having become.
Posted by Damos on May 23, 2005, at 18:25:19
In reply to Re: interesting weekend... long » Damos, posted by sunny10 on May 23, 2005, at 10:42:15
First thing I want to say Sunny is 'Thank you'. Thank you for being so frank and open with me and trusting me with your feelings and fears, it means a lot.
> Being a good conversationalist starts with knowing the person you're speaking to, right?
Actually I think it starts with listening. Really listening with your whole being. Not just to the words, but to the facial expressions the tone of the voice, the body language - the whole of the communication. It's about listening without resistance or imposition. It's about respect and awareness of the integrity of the other persons possition and the impossibility of understanding it fully. It's about suspending your assumptions, judgements and certainty about what's being said. It's about speaking the truth of what one really is and thinks. Oops preaching again. Listening is not just waiting for your next chance to speak. And it is all these things that allow you to get to know the other person. What's that old saying; "Listen and learn". See my roommate doesn't listen - not really, hence the problem. Don't get me wrong I'm not blameless here, not by a long shot, but in this particular case I'm just choosing not to play a particular game and role anymore.
You see what I mean. In your example he wasn't REALLY listening. He heard the words "can you be hear and do that at this time?" And responded accordingly. I do it with my roommate, by not looking at her when she's talking to me and a whole bunch of other stuff which really p*sses her off. Curiously I don't even consider doing things like that with people that I have an emotion bond with.
Can you please explain 'giddy' to me as I'm not really getting what you mean. I kinda think I do, but I'm just not sure.
Now for the geography incident. Fist I don't blame you for running. In your place I probably would have done the same. I don't understand how he got so worked up over such a non-issue. It's probably similar to my roommate asking to explain sports to her. She asks the same questions over and over again and trust me compared to comparative geography there's no comparison, and I just answer them over and over again. I aske question to clarify whether it's exactly the same question or whether there is some new nuance. Is it annoying when you're trying ot watch - yes, but I understand that for someone who genuinely has no understanding of the particular game it's like learning differential calculus. So I patiently explain. If someone is saying I don't understand, please explain it to me, chances are they don't understand. Some people just don;t like being questioned in any way by anyone. Everyone is just expected to know what they mean because no-one could explain it better. Do some people ask questions badly - yep. There is one woman here who asks every question with an accusatory tone and knows she does it and doesn't care. But it doesn't mean the rest of us have to get into a fight with her every time she asks a question. It's just her so we get over it.
Sunny, I'm not gonna get into the come back bit, becuae only you can judge what happened there. But I will say he has massive anger management problems and given the way this escalated I don't know that in your place I could ever feel 'safe'. As for "WE" need to lear to communicate better, it sounds as though you did a pretty good job of staying calm and controlled in the situation. It's impossible to communicate with someone who's first response to stuff is anger and aggression. BTW my roommates first response to anything that isn't going as planned is to attack, and in all honesty I just shut up shop and ride out the storm. So I understand.
There are a thousand things they can do before attack and threaten and abuse but they don't and they think being all peachy pie later on when they're feeling okay again is enough. There is no REAL acceptance and acknowledgement of the impact on us. I note with interest that of his stuff is WE this and we that, not ME, and that he spins everything back onto you eventually too. This worries my Sunny, it really does. And using the missunderstanding about the surgery as an excuse for all that followed - well I've got to say it's stretching it. And when have you ever treated him like dirt?
I'm really glad you had a good time at the concert, but sorry the demon bit you on the butt at the end of it. It's gotta be hard but I can understand it as the other episode ahs given you a new buch of triggers that you didn't have before and they are all hyper sensitive because of the association with the potential for violence.
Please don't hate yourself Sunny. As I've said many times, in your shoes I don't know what I'd be doing and feeling. You need to accept that your need to feel safe does not and will never make you a bad person. A bad thing happened and you are taking what you believe to be the necessary steps to protect yourself.
You might want to get a copy of
"Difficult Conversations" it's really good and is all about why conversations go wrong.
> I don't know how to begin trusting again. But I know I can't live not trusting anyone for the rest of my life. I'm just not hard-wired that way. It's not who I AM. It's not who I'm comfortable having become.I remember reading somewhere that it's impossible to know how to trust "just right" and that all we can do is to make agreements and "call" people when they break them and then re-negotiate or walk away. We can but try.
Love ya Sunny, wish I could give you a huge hug IRL to get you through, lord know I need one myself right now. Just know I'm with you all the way okay.
Damos
Posted by sunny10 on May 24, 2005, at 8:00:41
In reply to Re: interesting weekend... long » sunny10, posted by Damos on May 23, 2005, at 18:25:19
All of my feelings are just right at the surface just now... Probably not a coincidence that it is the "evil week" of the month for me.. I know, TMI...
But it might explain that yes, I actually WAS hurt about the whole surgery thing for the rest of the evening on Friday (he wasn't stretching it, it's true.). I'm STILL a little hurt by it; along with everything and everyone....
I watched tv last night. All night. And I cried during every show. Happy stuff, sweet stuff, sad stuff, angry stuff... didn't matter what the scenes were about- I was triggered.
I don't know how "to be" when I'm like this. On another thread I apparently did it again. Remember your comment about feeling that your roommate asked questions in an accusatory tone? Well, I think I did that without meaning to, also. Maybe I do it all the time. Maybe I shouldn't try to understand anyone anymore. Maybe I should just shut up, listen, and nod my head and pretend to understand. Because I don't want to be like your roommate. It comes down to not wanting to be like me, I guess.
I thought that by trying to communicate, I could understand other people and they could understand me. But I don't feel more understood by others- though I understand myself better, I guess. I now understand exactly how horrible I am. I guess that's what I've been trying to deny for the past 37 years. I didn't understand before why I didn't like myself very much, or why I felt I had to be someone else for other people to like me. Now I know.
I guess having one's questions answered isn't always a good thing. So I'm going to just shut up now.
Thanks for always listening, Damos. And for giving me the benefit of the doubt.
Posted by Damos on May 24, 2005, at 17:56:09
In reply to Re: thank you » Damos, posted by sunny10 on May 24, 2005, at 8:00:41
It's never TMI Sunny, never.
Your still being hurt by the surgery thing still doesn't excuse his actions and reactions, not by a long. It's a convenient out for him is all. It's a major life decision and I can only imagine what I'd be feeling about a choice to have a vasectomy in your situation. All on its own it's enough to have you off balance and out of kilter and you've got all this other stuff piled up on top as well. Give yourself a break. A little bit of support isn't too much to ask.
Arrggghhh. I know what you mean about the tv thing, I feel like such a idiot when every single thing sets me off and I can't stop it.
Hmmm, not knowing how to be. There's a familiar sentiment. Buddhists would say not to think about being - just be. But it's easier said than done. Trust me I know. I've spent most of my nearly 41 years being for everyone else to the point of completely loosing any sense of me. As hard as it is to do, just let go. Stopping working so hard at remembering all the things you've been told and taught and trying to act and react accordingly. It's all post fact and artificial. When you find yourself getting off balance and stuff try and take three long slow breaths in through your nose right down deep into your abdomen and let them out with a long slow sigh and let the tension around what's happening go with it. It's only in this silence that you can hear your true self. Don't think, be. Remember that being responsible is really be response - able. Able to choose our response to any situation. We don't have to just react. I fail at this regularly but am getting better with time and practice. I now consiousl choose not to beat myself up as my first response to every situation that goes skewif. You may have noticed that my posting has really tailored off in recent times, well that has a lot to do with trusting myself and how I feel about how I'm coming across to people. If you're worried about they way you question ask your co-workers to tell you and not just the ones you like. It can be confronting but it can also dispell some myths. At least it did when I did it. I just told them I was trying to work on my communication skills and would appreciate them giving me their honest feedback. Most people are pretty good about.
Now see the difference between you and my roomy is that she knows she does it and how if effects people and she doesn't care. She does it with everyone and can't understand people's reaction to her. You, on the other hand, recognise that you may do it, are concerned by the effect it has on you and others and genuinely want to do soething about it. Huge difference. Sunny, it's hard to change the habits of a lifetime. Creating new habits is easy as. Breaking old ones is a bugger - smoking is the classic example. So give yourself time. I've only started to see changes in myself in the last 2 years and they're tiny and I haven't been through a zillionth of what you have. It's hard and you fall flat on your face a dozen times a day but when your intent is clear it becomes okay. You'd be surpirsed but I honestly believe that the universe does conspire to bring you what you need. Sometimes the trick is to realise it and accept it. It often takes the form of simple synchronicity like you've got this question that's bugging you and out the blue someone will appear who gives you something that helps you find the answer. Now that I'm open to the possibility, I find it happens more and more. So you're not like my roomy and you should absolutely keep trying and even if you have to preface every conversation with an "I'm learning to communicate better" thing then so what. Whatever works to get you what and where you want to be and doesn;t compromise you or others. Trust me Sunny there are a thousand times a day when I don't want to be me either.
You are not horrible. Not by any stretch of the imagination. No more so than I am despite what each of us think. The single biggest change I've made in my life is this one. I am fallible, messed up, difficult at times, negative and uncommunicative etc, etc. But I am not bad, or horrible. I'm not. And neither are you. We hold this truth to be self evident. I can actually remember stopping mud sentance in a meeting because I realised I had just let an opportunity to be negative about myself slide by without comment. It was a real shock - so much so that I competely lost track of everything else for a few minutes. After the meeting a couple of others told me that they'd noticed the change in my way of speaking about myself too. Weird, really weird. So I'm living proof it can happen. Please don't give up on yourself. You don't need to be someone for others to like you. It's terrible not being able to see that who you are is okay - I know. I know what it's like to have been made wrong by everyone your whole life too. It's like you need to put the old brain through a car wash to get all the crud off.
Please don't retreat back into yourself Sunny, whether you realise it or not you're making progress, real progress. You might not see it but it's there. It just takes time for things to build up momentum and for the new picture to emerge. Think of a 10,000 piece jigsaw - it takes a lot of pieces to be in place before the picture emerges. Life changes are the same, a little here, a little there and eventually you can actually start to see something and then you can't wait to finish the rest.
I'm stuggling to make my changes in a relatively calm and normal environment. You are trying to make yours amid all kinds of turmoil so give yourself time okay.
Love ya kiddo and thank you again for sharing. You are helping me be better person too you know.
Damos
Posted by sunny10 on May 25, 2005, at 10:06:56
In reply to My pleasure » sunny10, posted by Damos on May 24, 2005, at 17:56:09
This is the end of the thread.
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