![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 47. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 6:40:39
My "best friend" and one of the people I consider family told me last night that she just can't get past what happened last month. She says she's forgiven me and she understands about the depression and thyroid stuff (she way doesn't), but she can't get past it. She will continue to be my co-worker and friend, but we will never again be friends like we were.
She also told me that mental illness is no excuse for bad behavior. I told my T that on the phone last night and she actually laughed.
I want to clarify here that nothing I did was abusive, physically or emotionally. The problem is that my brain bottomed out while we were on a weekend trip and I had no way to isolate myself. So it was awkward for everyone because I felt so bruised by interactions with other people. And because she was the only person in the group that I'm close to (and because of some perceived changes in her interactions with me), I threw several barbs her way (in the line of, "You're quite the party animal" when she headed to bed at 9 p.m. when we were on vacation to celebrate my birthday). That's not a lie or a misperception on my part -- that's what happened.
So this is how my life goes. It feels like everyone around me, even those who feel a bond with me, are just waiting for the slightest slipup so they have an excuse to get me out of their lives. Just like my mother.
There is not one part of me that can continue to do this on any level. (Not a suicide threat, just reality.) I am clearly completely unloveable and undeserving of friendships and second chances that seem to just happen for other people without much effort. She really did base this decision on 3 days during which I was having a breakdown vs. all of the other days of our close and loving friendship. She even admitted last night that the behavior was a complete aberration from who she knows me to be. But it doesn't matter.
And so none of this matters to me anymore. I just can't do it.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 7:18:03
In reply to Worse than ever, posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 6:40:39
If I had behaved the exact same way on this Board, I probably would have received a PBC. That's it.
Posted by seldomseen on February 20, 2009, at 7:23:08
In reply to Worse than ever, posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 6:40:39
I would like you to consider that perhaps what happened did not rest solely on your actions.
I suspect your friend may have some things going on that brought her to her decision independently of what may be a "slip-up" on your part. Her decision may, in fact, have very little to do with you or your behaviour.
I think when we are at our most depressed and vulnerable our brains seek out some way to control what is happening around us. A common way to do this is simply say, well, I must have caused it. I also think it is a remnant of the way we must have coped when we were children.
I think the key is as adults to try to sort out what responsibility belongs to us and what belongs to others.
Who knows, maybe your friend will sort out her issues and seek to repair the rupture. All you can do is work on your own.
Peace
Seldom.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 7:37:56
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » TherapyGirl, posted by seldomseen on February 20, 2009, at 7:23:08
Are you my T posing as a poster here, Seldom? :-)
That is almost exactly what my T said to me this morning when I called to ask her if I could offer my friend the opportunity to call and talk to her. I told my T that clearly I am missing some piece of my behavior that weekend and because she is only getting things from my perspective, we must not have all the information we need in order to fix the problem.
And she said what you said. I'm trying my best to internalize that. I don't know if I can, but it helps that you immediately came to the same conclusion.
Thank you for making it possible for me to get through a very long day.
Posted by Dinah on February 20, 2009, at 7:49:04
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » TherapyGirl, posted by seldomseen on February 20, 2009, at 7:23:08
I agree with seldomseen. Maybe your friend isn't even aware of it, but my guess would be that something else is going on with her. Maybe the situation reminded her of something else in her life?
If you're respectful of her decision, and positive and friendly in those interactions she is comfortable with right now, perhaps she'll come to think about things differently.
It's definitely upsetting though. I don't think I'm ever sanguine about disruptions in relationships that are important to me.
Posted by SLS on February 20, 2009, at 7:58:16
In reply to Worse than ever, posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 6:40:39
Hi TG.
This is a very preachy post. It is a bad habit of mine. However, I feel as if I have gone through much of what you are going through now, and I learned how to thrive despite the well-meaning ignorance of others.
> My "best friend" and one of the people I consider family told me last night that she just can't get past what happened last month. She says she's forgiven me and she understands about the depression and thyroid stuff (she way doesn't), but she can't get past it. She will continue to be my co-worker and friend, but we will never again be friends like we were.
I am sorry. That is a great loss and must be devastating to your self-esteem. My years of depression have stolen many people from my life, so I understand the unfairness of it all. I accepted it, though, as being part of the trajedy of my having such an unfair and devastating illness. I realized that when the time was right, I would make new friends. The healthier I got, the more people I would meet, the healthier would be these people, and the healthier would be the relationships. I was angry with my best friend for abandoning me, but I learned that the loss was a casualty of the depression. Eventually, I forgave him in my mind and in my heart. Some people just don't know how to handle mental illness when it occurs in a friend. Now that I am feeling better, I have gone out of my way to reestablish the friendship, and it is going very well.
> She also told me that mental illness is no excuse for bad behavior.That is a difficult concept for someone without mental illness to grasp. They consider that all of their behaviors are well withing their psyche to control. (How silly). I don't know if they could make the same argument if they have ever been inebriated.
> I told my T that on the phone last night and she actually laughed.
Why?
There is nothing funny about this. Your friend is not the only person to believe the way she does about mental illness. This is a serious issue, and one you are going to have to contend with from time to time in your life. Understanding this reality has been crucial for me to maintain my self-esteem. It is a very serious matter that I think you might discuss with your therapist when you have your next visit.
> So this is how my life goes.
Only if you allow it. You can attend to this issue seriously and learn coping mechanisms. I learned how to communicate the truth about mental illness to the people around me. I am assertive in this regard. I don't let people "happen" to me. For those who for whatever reason are recalcitrant to understanding, forgive them their ignorance and move on. You actually don't owe anyone an explanation. It is up to you to determine how selective you will be disclosing something so personal.
> It feels like everyone around me, even those who feel a bond with me, are just waiting for the slightest slipup so they have an excuse to get me out of their lives.
I am sure this is not true. If these people wanted you out of their lives, they wouldn't be waiting around for an excuse. They would be long gone already. Think about it. They remain with you because they care about you. They like you. They might even find something loveable about you. Maybe.
> Just like my mother.
I wouldn't know about that.
> There is not one part of me that can continue to do this on any level.
I wouldn't know about that either. I would hope that your current state of mind will pass, even though the real problems persist. You need to begin to deal with the world around you as it exists by changing it. That includes changing yourself. This is what therapist are for, I believe. You really don't even have to focus too much on changing the world, you will find that it changes all by itself as you change and become healthier yourself.
> (Not a suicide threat, just reality.) I am clearly completely unloveable
That is considered to be a core belief in CBT, and is all but impossible to change overnight. In the meantime, is there any way you can be convinced that you are indeed loveable, despite, and allowing for, your feelings that you are not? The messages of childhood can be sabotaging to one's sense of self and self-esteem. I read your stuff. You don't seem unloveable to me. I'm a hard sell, though. You would have to be a truly evil person for me not to love you. Evil is not a behavior. It lies in the heart (or lack of one). Nothing you have done is evil. Whether or not you are happy with your behavior is something you can discuss with your therapist. You are not doomed to remain the same. Hard work with proper guidance will bring you to a better place. You will be happy, especially if you are willing to take risks like the one you took here by posting your about your behaviors and true feelings.
> and undeserving of friendships and second chances that seem to just happen for other people without much effort.
Yes. "How do they do it?"
:-)
You will too, but with just a bit more effort. You are not going to have to climb a mountain - just a series of hills.
> She really did base this decision on 3 days during which I was having a breakdown vs. all of the other days of our close and loving friendship. She even admitted last night that the behavior was a complete aberration from who she knows me to be. But it doesn't matter.
Of course it matters. Not so much to me, but it obviously does to you, or you would not be feeling the way you do right now. Educate her. Present her with written material. It might be much more pursuasive than anything you can say to her. You can apologize to her for your behavior, if that feels right to you, and explain that you live with a challenge. Tell her that you would like to remain friends, but that it will be important for your relationship that she has an understanding of that challenge. If she still rejects you, forgive her in your heart and move on.
> And so none of this matters to me anymore. I just can't do it.Sorry. You will do it. Just not right now. You are burned-out. Rest.
Be merciful with yourself. You are a survivor. Has it ever occurred to you that there are others with your exact same challenges who are in much worse shape for not being as capable as you are at dealing with them, regardless of how capable you now feel that you are not? Believe it. You have my respect, even if you don't have yours.
Don't worry. People here won't give up on you or discard you. Please don't give up on yourself. Goodness comes bubbling out of your words. Good people like to see good people succeed. I don't know how good I am, but I would like to see you happy.
Rest.
Good luck.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on February 20, 2009, at 8:37:19
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » TherapyGirl, posted by seldomseen on February 20, 2009, at 7:23:08
Hi Seldom.
> I think the key is as adults to try to sort out what responsibility belongs to us and what belongs to others.
Thanks for this.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on February 20, 2009, at 8:43:19
In reply to Worse than ever, posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 6:40:39
Hi again TG.
"Who knows, maybe your friend will sort out her issues and seek to repair the rupture"
I think Seldom gives good advice here - better than mine.
Perhaps this is not the time to try to educate her about your challenges. Maybe simply allowing your friend a bit of time is all that is necessary.
- Scott
Posted by antigua3 on February 20, 2009, at 9:06:18
In reply to Worse than ever, posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 6:40:39
I'm really sorry that you're going through this on top of everything else you're experiencing.
While you've gotten great advice already, I'd like to throw something a little different out here.
Obviously your friend is triggering feelings of abandonment in you, which is perfectly logical. But maybe she shouldn't be your best friend? Maybe you picked her for triggering reasons of your own, when in fact, she really isn't the type of person who should be your best friend? I know that in the past I often sought out people who were bad for me, but I kept hanging on to them and they hurt me, and I hurt them, and when I came to understand the pattern, I found that it was me all along. That the other person wasn't "worthy" of being my best friend. Not that it's all their fault, but that I was placing unrealistic expectations on them. I'm not saying your expectations were unrealistic w/this friend, I'm just trying to point out that people w/histories such as ours are often drawn to people who remind us of our childhood, and we end up retraumatizing ourselves, despite our best efforts.
All that said, I think Scott is right. I've lost what I thought were good friends over their inability, or fear I might add, in understanding how I am when I've trusted enough to open up. Many people just can't handle things like that, and as it has been said, that is their issue, not yours, and while I think educating may work for some, others are just too triggered themselves and they run.
I think you deserve better friends. And remember, you can't change her; you can't make her be your best friend again. That hurts, I know, but, again, that's her issue not yours and you have to find peace within yourself.
Please take care of yourself,
antigua
Posted by backseatdriver on February 20, 2009, at 9:20:50
In reply to Worse than ever, posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 6:40:39
Hi TherapyGirl,
Just wanted to chime in with a couple of things that came to mind as I read your post.
First, my gosh, what a cruddy situation. I am sorry you're going through it. I don't know how you felt when your T laughed at your friend's "no excuse" remark, but it seems to me like your T was expressing support. Your friend was out of line. Her remark is ITSELF inexcusable. It is also rigid and unfriendly. I second the posters here who have suggested that she's got issues of her own. Probably one should have compassion for her. But frankly, I don't. (This is my issue. Working on it!)
Mental illness makes interpersonal stuff harder than it would otherwise be, just like a trick knee can make running harder than it would be otherwise, and so on. But is NO worse than other disabilities, and you are no more at fault for this situation than you would be at fault for injuring an already weakened joint while running a race. We use what we have. How can we do otherwise?
>It feels like everyone around me, even those who feel
> a bond with me, are just waiting for the slightest slipupI think attachment -- bonds -- are not necessarily free of ambivalence. To some, being "bonded" can feel like love and attachment; to others, it can feel like being hemmed in. The word itself contains both meanings. Sometimes both feelings can exist in a single person's heart.
I think your friend may be one of those ambivalent types. Time will tell. (In my experience, it always does.) You'll get a letter, or a phone call, or some news will come to you and you will see all at once the nature of her feelings for you. In the meantime, though, it is hard to wait, and it hurts real bad when attachments are broken. If it is any comfort, she is hurting, too. Probably more than anyone can see. You are probably not the first person she has treated this way; her life may be full of abrupt departures instigated by her own fears (of intimacy, of conflict, who knows?) Anyway, this is not your fault -- those are her issues.
Take care of yourself, and write here,
BSD
Posted by sassyfrancesca on February 20, 2009, at 10:23:06
In reply to Worse than ever, posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 6:40:39
Oh, sweetie: i am so sorry your friend responded that way. You ARE deserving of love and friendship; just like any human being!
She may have been responding to stuff that has nothing to do with YOU, but with HER stuff; no way to know that.
A true friend would laugh it off and talk to you about it; be empathic, etc.....
You are NOT unloveable or undeserving of relationships.
your "friend" obviously has issues that have NOTHING to do with you.
How unkind and cruel. You did nothing wrong.
Hugs, Sassy
Posted by workinprogress on February 20, 2009, at 10:54:00
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » TherapyGirl, posted by antigua3 on February 20, 2009, at 9:06:18
Ah- Antigua... that's what I kept thinking. I knew someone else would go there. Though, I think the stuff Seldom said- it's probably not all about you- is probably a piece of it too.
But... that old idea about picking people where we replay old patterns, it sounds plausible to me. TG, the way you describe what happened describes stuff that happens between friends often. People sometimes get on each others nerves, people sometimes poke, people sometimes throw barbs instead of discussing it directly. But, the adult response is to say "that hurt my feelings" and maybe discuss some other way to bring up issues. The non-adult response is to snark back and poke back. Many times the response is to ignore and let it fester or fade away. Now, these non-adult responses... not idea. But, your friends' response is nowhere on the charts there. That's because to me--- it's nowhere on the charts!!!
So, she's reacting rather oddly. I'd say the trick here is to be able to say, that's not normal behavior. I've picked a friend I can't rely on, maybe it's time to examine my friendships. Or.. something's up with my friend, I hope she's ok. As opposed to, I'm unlovable. That's what you learned as a defense mechanism as a kid. When you felt abandoned by mom, you turned on yourself, blamed yourself, there must be something wrong with me- TG, because mom's don't abandon kids and furthermore (I know kids don't say any of this particularly furthermore ;) ) if mom abandons me then I'm an orphan and I don't want that, so it must be my fault.
It isn't your fault TG. You were in a space where you could have communicated a little better, but you did nothing that warrants the severing of the friendship. I think the question is... did your friend?
All that said... I am so so sorry. Friendships are so hard in this way. There are so few that stay. And for those of us who struggle with abandonment the fluidity of friendship is so painful and I don't think I ever get used to it. I'm currently coming to the realization that a friendship I once very much valued has faded away, I am trying hard not to think "I'm bad" for having that happen. (It's always my fault too). But TG, you seem quite lovable to me. Because you're you. Because you're caring and thoughtful and full of feeling. And you've been very helpful to people on this board. So, help us out and give yourself a big hug and try to think of something nice to do to yourself. Be a friend to yourself if you can....
(((((((((((((((TG))))))))))))))))))
Posted by raisinb on February 20, 2009, at 11:44:56
In reply to Worse than ever, posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 6:40:39
TG,
I am so sorry this is happening right now. I agree with the other posters--please don't blame yourself or your supposedly "unchangeable" qualities. You are neither unlovable nor unsuited for relationships--your long-term T relationship and your other ones (AND you on Babble!) prove that.The exact same thing happened to me about four years ago. A friend, very, very close and special to me, "dumped" me because of some things I'd done and said on a trip we took together. They were a lot worse (it sounds) than what you've said. It involved a good deal of transference on my part--issues I wouldn't work through until I met my current therapist (my friend was a therapist, too).
Several months later, I sent her an email apologizing, wishing her well, and telling her how important she'd been to me. She was upset about the rupture, too, and we ended up being friends again.
I wanted to let you know that this situation isn't necessarily permanent, even though it feels awful right now.
Please take care. ((((TG))))
Posted by Phillipa on February 20, 2009, at 13:07:43
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » TherapyGirl, posted by raisinb on February 20, 2009, at 11:44:56
I'm sorry I do know how fluctuating thyroid hormones can change mood so quickly and you wonder what happened. Is this some book or link that might help your friend understand the current problems you experience mental and even physical. I know from all the threads your're a great person. Love Phillipa
Posted by lucie lu on February 20, 2009, at 14:38:45
In reply to Worse than ever, posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 6:40:39
TG,
You know, something I have learned about friends is that they can have serious limitations. And yet still have valuable things to offer in the friendship.
We all want our closest friends to understand us, care for us, and stand by us especially in our hour of need. And there are friends like this, bless them. But there are also ones who are great in most respects but who just can't cope with part of the package. I have learned that even such people can be good friends to me if I can accept their limitations (and vice versa). I have a very close friend who for decades has been like a sister to me. We genuinely love each other. I have turned to her in all sorts of personal and family emergencies. However, I have learned that there are some that for her own reasons, she simply cannot cope with. Mental illness is something that some people simply cannot cope with, either through misinformation or bias or perhaps fears about themselves. My friend is one of these. So when I need to talk to someone about MH issues, I will need to turn to others and not her (or Babble, of course). The key in being able to accept this is recognizing that it is her issue, not mine, that renders her unable to help me when I need help in this direction. The other key is knowledge and acceptance of what her particular limits. Inevitably, there is great hurt, disappointment and disillusionment when we discover a good friend's limits because we are usually smacked in the face with it. It hurts like hell. But then at least you know where the limits are, and hopefully you two can repair the rupture and resume a worthwhile friendship.
The problem right now is that you are raw and sore both from your depression and also from the rupture with her. And you have needs that she cannot fulfill, given who she is and the limitations of the friendship. So right now, it is probably best to focus on getting the support you need elsewhere until you are feeling better, when you both may be able to move on together.
So my point is that just as there is no perfect spouse, there is no perfect friend (or at least very few!). It is hard when a close friend's area of limitation happens to coincide with an area where you may have special needs. But the friendship can still be very meaningful and worthwhile in other ways. Hopefully you two will be able to renegotiate when the time feels right.
I hope this helps. ((((((((((TG))))))))))
Take care,
Lucie
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 15:51:08
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » TherapyGirl, posted by lucie lu on February 20, 2009, at 14:38:45
I just got home from my trip. I appreciate each and every response. I always know that if there is nowhere else in my life where people get it, there is always Babble.
I'll respond individually (or maybe in a group update) tonight and/or tomorrow. I do want to clarify that my T laughed when I told her the quote not because any of this is funny to her, but because the quote itself is so very ridiculous.
The one thing I was able to say to my friend today is, "You know your quotable quote from last night about mental illness being no excuse for bad behavior is utter drivel and, frankly, I'm shocked beyond belief to hear it come out of the mouth of someone who has spent decades working with people with disabilities. What you are seeing today in terms of my ability to function is the result of the month I've had to work on coping skills and new ways of dealing with this with my T. What happened to me on the trip last month was akin to someone going from a mild cognitive impairment to a severe one in a matter of hours. NO ONE would have been prepared for that."
She then told me that the quote was not directed at me. She won't own up to any part of this. It is all very clear to me now. Although I still miss her like crazy.
More later. Thanks to all of you.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 19:49:15
In reply to Re: Worse than ever, posted by Dinah on February 20, 2009, at 7:49:04
Not sanguine, not patient, too depressed.
Why is this so hard?
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 19:50:18
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » TherapyGirl, posted by SLS on February 20, 2009, at 7:58:16
Not preachy, Scott. I really have no idea how you do this. It is amazing to me. I don't think I have it in me. I'll keep reading your post, though.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 19:51:51
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » TherapyGirl, posted by antigua3 on February 20, 2009, at 9:06:18
Probably nail on the head, Antigua. But after 24 years of therapy, shouldn't I be picking better now? I'm running out of time to fix this. And I just can't take it anymore.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 19:56:59
In reply to Re: Worse than ever, posted by backseatdriver on February 20, 2009, at 9:20:50
I think you're right, BSD. Friend is definitely ambivalent (and feels pressured and like there are unfair expectations on her) and I'm all bonded and attached because it took me so long to get to the place where I COULD be bonded and attached. Unbelievably long. Unbelievably hard work. And for what???????
It's interesting how you interpreted that remark. When I called her on it today, she said it wasn't directed at me, she was just telling me what someone said to her one time. Funny, though -- she was telling me that when we were talking about MY mental illness and MY behavior. There was no other way to interpret it.
She also says that when she came downstairs at the beach to check on me that she gave me every opportunity to talk to her. That she expressed concern for me. What she actually did was stand at the bottom of the stairs, about 10 feet away from me and said, "Are you ignoring us?" Does anyone else see the difference between "What's going on with you and how can I help?" (support) and "Are you ignoring us?" (criticism).
And I can't let go of it. Even when I know all of you and my T are right about her. Even in those moments when I know it. I still can't let go and I still feel abandoned and unbelievably hurt and sad and depressed.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 19:57:39
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » TherapyGirl, posted by sassyfrancesca on February 20, 2009, at 10:23:06
Thanks, Sassy. I'm trying to believe that. I really am. I just can't seem to get there from here right this second.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 19:59:21
In reply to Re: Worse than ever, posted by workinprogress on February 20, 2009, at 10:54:00
Thank you, WIP. I can't take it in right now, but thank you for saying it.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 20:01:42
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » TherapyGirl, posted by raisinb on February 20, 2009, at 11:44:56
Thank you for giving me the gift of hope, Raisinb. I can't fathom why I can't let go of her, but I can't. It feels like the possibility of fun has just permanently shut down for me. And the possibility of holding those connections.
And it just gets worse when I lose my T on top of everything else. I can't bear it.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 20:02:42
In reply to Re: Worse than ever, posted by Phillipa on February 20, 2009, at 13:07:43
Thanks, Phillipa. I don't think she wants to understand. She seems pretty committed to NOT understanding. But maybe one day she'll be open to that.
Posted by TherapyGirl on February 20, 2009, at 20:04:11
In reply to Re: Worse than ever » TherapyGirl, posted by lucie lu on February 20, 2009, at 14:38:45
How do you figure all this stuff out, Lucie? I mean that. HOW? And then how do you hold onto it when the bottom falls out?
Thank you for your post.
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