![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 34. Go back in thread:
Posted by Nadezda on December 6, 2008, at 11:51:04
In reply to Memories (triggers), posted by Wittgensteinz on December 5, 2008, at 16:03:36
Hi, Witti. I'm sorry you feel uncomfortable about having posted. I read your post last night and it really touched me, but I wasn't able to respond-- in the sense that I've had that feeling and I know how evanescent and wobbly the sense of having the right to protect oneself is. My mother had many tendencies that may have been like those that were more pronounced and acted out by your mother, who may have had some sort of confusion about sexuality and her own body-- and great discomfort with yours--
I didn't respond mostly because I didn't like to give a quick response to a deep post. I thought of putting a few quick words- to let you know I was there- but I wanted to give a proper and thoughtful reply and didn't feel up to it..
I'm glad you felt that writing it down might help-- It can be very distressing when no one responds. I try to think, for myself, when others don't respond, that it's a worthwhile record of my own experience and a valuable statement of where I am. But at times when the feelings are very raw, that's hard to do. You have nothing to be ashamed of, though. You write things that many of us have felt.
I'm very sorry about your mother's treatment of you-- and for the long-term inhibitions that it creates. Whatever else is true, you have the right., and perhaps owe it to yourself, to protect yourself, as you find best. You don't have to prove to anyone that you have the right to keep your boundaries- I know it can provoke the sensee that you're a bad person, when you feel this anger and dislike. That's the thing about childhood though-- we can't remember what's done to us. Frequently it's so subtle and we're so at the mercy of our parents that we couldn't notice or afford to remember. These things are lost, and the remnant is a feeling-- which we can't really explain.
So what I mostly feel is that it's important for you to know you have the right to protect yourself. No one needs to give permission or understand-- (Of course, it's better if those close to you do.) It's mostly about coming to accept and respect your own feeling about your mother-- As an adult, it's hard to acknowledge and keep aware of this hidden emotional truth-- that whatever is causing this feeling-- is real, and worth respecting and doesn't need to be explained, especially to your father or her.. It does tend to slip away under pressure of all these social rules, and oughts, and one's parents' denials-- and one's own wish that the feeling would go away, and we could be at peace. I think there's a way to find that peace-- but through another avenue.
I know you're a good person, though-- and always value your contributions here and find a great interest in reading them..
Nadezda
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 6, 2008, at 12:01:05
In reply to Re: :( I wish I hadn't posted this now » Wittgensteinz, posted by vwoolf on December 6, 2008, at 7:57:39
Thank you for your kind words Vwoolf - they brought me comfort. Yes, I do carry a lot of shame.
I think the pdoc opened a can of worms. My T never pushes me on things, which seems to suit me better.
But now I have so many unanswered, unanswerable questions floating through my head. The question at the forefront of my mind is: did she do more than physically/emotionally abuse me? Did she damage me in another way? Did she violate me sexually? I know she liked to humiliate me, that she was sadistic and controlling, but how far did she take it? And with the memories I have there isn't enough to know.
I'm sorry that it happened to you too - that someone took advantage of you - it's a horrid thing to go through and a worse thing to live with afterwards.
Thanks again,
Witti
Posted by turtle on December 6, 2008, at 12:05:04
In reply to Memories (triggers), posted by Wittgensteinz on December 5, 2008, at 16:03:36
> Ok, I'm not quite sure why I'm posting this. I feel ashamed - it's dangerous to point fingers at people without being sure - I'm not sure I really want to know anyway, after all whatever did or didn't happen, I am now as I am, and the underlying causes are perhaps not so important. All I know is how scared I am of that woman, and how I never want her to touch me ever again.
>
> Witti
>
>Witti
I'm sorry that you felt like you have been left out here alone with your post. What you posted was very brave and open. I have been slow to respond because your post resonated with me very deeply and it has taken me awhile to sort out my thoughts about it. It touched on some tender and vulnerable areas in me. Thank you for putting yourself out there.
The process you are going through has some similarities to my own journey.
One of the horrible things about childhood abuse is that you can begin to internalize what you experienced as "everyday-normal" and still go about your daily life. To get to that point there has to be an incredible amount of shutting down internally and learning how to deny/negate your own experience. You learn how to doubt yourself, and I hear some of that in your post.
For myself, I have a gap in my childhood. In my memories, I'm missing the years from about 6 to 12. By the time I reached adulthood I was internally "in lockdown" as I like to describe it. I remained in lockdown until the conditions were right to open it all up, including a safe and stable therapy relationship.
I don't really know what all happened in those missing years. Like you, I'm not sure if I do really want to know more than I already do. Not knowing is terribly hard, but would knowing be worse? I don't have the answer to that yet.
I had to really think about what my purpose in therapy is. I define it simply now as "restoring my flow" and learning to "live in my own skin." These goals are about *me*, the internal me, and healing. If my goal was external - about blame, or holding someone accountable, then uncertainty wouldn't work very well. When you first start to ask yourself the question about what exactly happened, it can feel like you are "pointing fingers", and yes, that does feel dangerous. I don't hear in you though that this is really your end goal?
For the purpose of self healing, you don't need every last detail filled in before you can begin your work. Are you wondering if there was more to the abuse that you haven't figured out yet? Is that what I am hearing in your post? The very most important thing is to really listen to yourself and learn to accept and understand your own experience, as you are experiencing it now.
For myself, I don't know what happened in those years. But there are some things that I can do. I can look at the fragments of horrific stuff that are in the memories that I do have, and start to really examine who my parents were and what the environment was like. I can learn to listen to my body and my emotions now. I'm learning to really be open to these internal things and not negate them. Like you I ask, "Why do I feel that way with one person and not the other? Why do I have the responses to things in the way that I do?" I've become educated about memory and the things that are particular struggles for myself. Yes, sometimes things are just too horrible to remember. Our minds are really amazing, aren't they? I allow myself to explore and be curious about myself, even the dysfunctional and painful areas. Part of the process of looking at things that "don't add up" and connecting the dots between things that do go together is becoming more comfortable with trusting what you do feel and perceive, which is a very good thing.
You know what I just realized, right now as I write this? There are some areas of my childhood where I can look and say "that was absolutely horrific abuse". But what about the things that are in the unknown? Allowing myself to trust what I feel now, and add it to what I can intellectually figure out, and say "this is what probably happened right there" feels a little like self care. (Something I'm horrible with.) I just realized, it's kind of compassionate to myself, isn't it! I'm not holding myself to an absolute black or white standard. I can accept "probably" as a starting point, then focus on what I'm experiencing now and start working on it from there. (I guess I am making progress in therapy!)
I don't know what your answers are. I just hope that feeling ashamed and feeling the fear of "pointing fingers" doesn't throw you off. I completely understand how shame and uncertainty makes things so much harder. Dealing with childhood memories is so much more is more complex an absolute "you broke this and you can fix it by doing that." It's just not that simple. I hope you can be kind to yourself through the process and have compassion for what you are experiencing now. It's very hard to trust yourself, and I wish that for you. You are doing a lot of great work in therapy.
Turtle
Posted by Dinah on December 6, 2008, at 12:19:29
In reply to Memories (triggers), posted by Wittgensteinz on December 5, 2008, at 16:03:36
I'm sorry that I didn't respond. I was upset and anxious last night, and I still am today really. I find it easier to address more cerebral issues than emotional ones since I'm trying to find balance. I think that sort of thing, coupled with the usual ups and down of posting volume, leads to few responses at times. It isn't personal to the poster or the post.
In my own life, I accept that I may never know the truth of anything. I have clear memories of some things with my mom (and to a lesser extent, my dad) that were indicative of poor boundaries. I am positive that she never did anything that would anywhere near approach abuse. It was just a question of poor boundaries. It did affect my view of sexuality, and to this day I have some fears about female anatomy that I am positive date back to that.
I also have some vaguer memories about severe discomfort around another less closely related family member. I've done some discreet questioning, and it would seem that there is no thought in anyone else's mind that he was ever inappropriate - at least not until he was well into senility. And I have no memory of him being inappropriate either. Just that I had an extreme reaction to him. I'm guessing it's something similar to my mother. Poor boundaries or a lack of respect for personal space.
My symptoms have always pointed to sexual abuse. There is even a documented incident of unaccounted for vaginal bleeding when I was (at best guess) three, although since I was a virgin physically as an adult, I wouldn't think it was what my mother feared. I think she even brought me to a pediatrician although I only remember her and my grandma grilling me over my day's activities and expressing an intent to examine me. My mother validates this memory. Which would come close enough I'd guess, in my young mind. I suppose some part of me will always wonder.
But I'm a firm believer that it isn't the actual events in a person's life that shapes them. It's that weird mix of their personalities, the events, and the oft-times unspoken construction we put on those events.
And kids don't really share their conclusions, do they? I just now found out that my son misinterpreted something the eye doctor said last time he was there, that had caused him considerable anxiety. I doubt that sort of thing is unusual.
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 6, 2008, at 12:25:42
In reply to Re: Memories (triggers too, esp warning for Dinah) » Wittgensteinz, posted by BayLeaf on December 6, 2008, at 9:38:45
BayLeaf,
I'm familiar with the feeling of going to be sick - sometimes I've had that very strongly during sessions. I've never needed to have the trashcan next to me though. Other times I've felt a stabbing pain in the side of my head, like my body is reacting to the very tension of talking/opening up about unpleasant things.
*Triggery*
I have the feeling that being able to remember - sorting it out in my head could somehow bring back my control over the situation and help me resolve it. For example, I have unexplained scars on my torso which I've had for as long as I can remember - at 4 I had chicken pocks and my mother made this big thing of how I got it so badly that it caused scarring. The fact is, they aren't chicken pocks scars - they are the wrong size and shape - they look more like the marks left by finger nails. And there are numerous other similar kinds of things that I can't explain but am also unable ignore.
It's a pity the past can't just stay that way and that we can't just go on into the future with a fresh start.
Witti
Posted by rskontos on December 6, 2008, at 18:28:47
In reply to Re: Memories (triggers too, esp warning for Dinah), posted by Wittgensteinz on December 6, 2008, at 12:25:42
Witti,
I am sorry I did not go ahead with my earlier post. I tried. I wrote two and closed them. It was hard. I wanted to write how I felt. I tried I really did. I tried to tell you how I went through so much of the same things (adult and childhood abuse). But it was just too hard to write it. I am sorry I did not at least respond in some way.
I just wanted a meaningful exchange to your very honest, heartretching post. I already knew most of this but you opened up in a way that warranted a thoughtful post back. And I could not find the words. At least not good enough ones.
I am sorry you were hurt by the lack of responses. I would have babblemailed you but yours isn't turned on.
So again I am sorry.
I should have just said something like I am sorry I will post more when I am able. But I struggled and did not let you in on at least that much.
My head is too busy these days and I can't get my thoughts out very well.
rsk
Posted by muffled on December 6, 2008, at 20:10:21
In reply to Memories (triggers), posted by Wittgensteinz on December 5, 2008, at 16:03:36
Wow, that intense and hard Witti, I am sorry.
I agree with others that sometime I have to 'sit' on a post a bit, and wait for others to reply, cuz I just not sure what to say.
There is nothing wrong with what you posted and you need'nt feel bad bout it.
Its just this whole memory stuff is SUCH a can of worms.
Memories come back from the perception of the child that experienced them, and so can be hard to understand. They can also get mixed up w/other stuff. V. young memories are non verbal, they rend to be body memes, or emotions.
So its really hard to know alot of times w/o some verification.
I think we need to trust in what we feel, and know that you were hurt. You may or may not ever know the real truth. Just obvo you were hurt.
I struggle with this stuff myself, which is why I didn't post.
Its just real hard stuff :-(
But maybe you need to work thru it to heal?
I dunno.
Just don't rush.
If there is mems to come, they will come when you are ready.
Don't force them.
I send you best wishes.
Muffled
Posted by twinleaf on December 6, 2008, at 23:16:06
In reply to Memories (triggers), posted by Wittgensteinz on December 5, 2008, at 16:03:36
Your post is so moving, and so interesting. It starts on quite a surface level, with questions asked by your pdoc, then progresses to memories of an abusive sexual experience when you were a teenager, and then way back to fragmentary, very distressing and painful memories connected to how your mother dealt with your body when you were very young. I think the reason not many people responded right away is that what you wrote was so powerful and felt so true and real that it had a strong impact- enough to make people like me make painful connections to how my own mother handled my body when I was 3-4. . The details are different, but the emotional impact is painfully similiar, It took me a while before I felt ready to respond.
You let us see what your therapy is like from moment to moment. It's wonderful that you can work in this way- I'm SURE it will help you a lot, although, like everyone, you do have to keep going over the same memories and feelings until they loosen their grip on you.
One thought that I had- your analyst is obviously doing a superb job of being with you and helping you express all these feelings and memories. But why is your pdoc asking you so many questions about your sex life? I think he's only supposed to ask ONE question- whether or not a medication he prescribed has altered your libido or your sexual expression. Instead, he sounds like he's trying to be another therapist. If you can find a way to shut him up, that would be helpful. Maybe your analyst can find a clever way to help with this.
I hope you will always feel safe and confident posting here. What you write is relevant and helpful to everyone- we just aren't always as articulate!
Posted by lucie lu on December 7, 2008, at 0:12:52
In reply to Memories (triggers), posted by Wittgensteinz on December 5, 2008, at 16:03:36
Hi again, Witti.
This morning I responded, or tried to, to your obvious distress and understandable need for reassurance that you did the right thing and that you certainly did not break any unwritten Babble rules, as you put it. And that you are held in high esteem and that you are cared about by people on this board (as I think has been borne out by the responses you have had since this morning). I suggested that the slow response was due to factors like the time, and in my experience weekends, especially Fridays, really are slow on the board. But clearly your post has resonated very powerfully with many other people here and it just took time to come up with the thoughtful response that your post deserved. For me, the meaning of your words also took some time to digest and turn over in my mind. They ended up having special significance for me because my mother is staying with me this weekend and I am having trouble with it. My relationship with my mother has always been complex. We were close, too close, when I was a child. I have never been able to reconcile the black and white images I have of her (and my father), in large part because alcoholics often do have a Jekyll and Hyde sense to them. They really *are* two different people, which is very confusing and hard to accept for a child, even an adult. My mother now, since she is no longer alcoholic, is helpful and loving. Yet it took me a long time to be able to tolerate her, to essentially forgive her for what she was when I was growing up. I also have "body memories" around her that still frighten me. Unlike your mother, who sounds sadistic, mine was a substance abuser. My boundaries were violated regularly as a child, often in some pretty horrific ways. I find myself in a bind and cannot express these things to my husband and kids, because they see her as so kind and have bonded with her. I hate to disturb that. But I have memories something like yours. She stayed with us last weekend (she lives only about an hour away) and that visit went so well, I invited her back to finish a project she and I started. She was the "good mom" last weekend and I almost posted about it, something like a success story in being able to grow past a difficult relationship. But this weekend, for whatever reason, she has been the "bad mom" I remember, and I found myself today literally hiding in the basement, afraid to be found by anyone. It seems the fallout from the early damage never seems to end. I have some memories, but few before my adolescence, not that these were good. I don't have an answer, Witti. But I think I can understand a lot of what is transpiring with you as your memories seem to take some coalesce, as sad and scary as they are. And I agree with twinleaf and others that your pdoc is probing more than is useful for you. Since you have said that he has otherwise been warm and kind to you, perhaps he simply doesn't understand how this is so much harder for you than just sexual "side effects" from the medications.
I don't know what else to say, except that I am so sorry that you are going through this, that things have been so very difficult for you, and that you are still one of the bravest people I know.
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 7, 2008, at 4:25:58
In reply to Re: Memories (triggers), posted by lucie lu on December 7, 2008, at 0:12:52
I really appreciate that so many people have replied. I feel a bit guilty now because I think my second post made some feel compelled to comment when it was uncomfortable for them. That really wasn't my intention, and I hope I haven't triggered anyone else because of that.
That's what I meant about unwritten babble rules - perhaps some things shouldn't be posted. I think there are things I really wouldn't post and wouldn't want to read - but after posting what I did, I had the feeling I maybe had overstepped the mark and hurt others.
I sometimes wonder whether I should find another way to sound my thoughts when I'm going over things - I think a lot of people write a journal. I did this for a while as an early teen - but I was always terrified the wrong person would find it and read it. Anonymity gives one a special freedom of expression, and this is a place where others share a common ground - that's unique - I think that's what makes this place feel 'safe'.
So I want to say thank you for those who posted but also sorry for those who felt pushed into doing so. I feel like I've been manipulative. I responded how I did (that second post) because I felt terrified that I'd posted something that of course will never be removed and that it was the 'wrong' thing and that I'd upset everyone. Like coming to a wedding thinking it was a funeral and dressing accordingly.
Witti
Witti
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 7, 2008, at 4:51:24
In reply to Re: :( I wish I hadn't posted this now » Wittgensteinz, posted by lucie lu on December 6, 2008, at 9:43:10
LL,
Thank you for your reassuring post - it really touched me. I think if anyone I owe you (babblers) an apology for being inpatient and potentially pressuring people into posting on a topic they perhaps weren't comfortable with. I didn't really appreciate how raw it would be to so many. In a way, that fact alone makes me feel less alone.
I haven't really talked about my current thoughts at length yet with my T. Friday's session involved numerous topics - it began with Sinterklaas (we celebrate St. Nicolas Eve in Holland) and we each had a chocolate (I brought him a box of chocolates). I did touch on this question I have about my perception of my mother as sadistic (something I recall feeling since I was very young) and whether she really was - or perhaps that she meant well but went about it in the wrong way - she was abused by her father - maybe she knew no different. This matters to me because she's still there - she still contacts me (and visits from time to time) - and each time I see her or hear from her I am filled with guilt and disgust. My T emphasised that my feelings were as they were - that the fact I found her sadistic was important and significant. He then started to talk very softly and rather quickly in Dutch. His voice was so soft and caring I melted a little but I didn't take in entirely what he said - I know he was talking about my attempt, but what he said exactly I don't know - it was more as if he was saying it to himself and not me. It was near the end of the session and I had the feeling he was weeping - I glanced over and he had his hand to his face, so I immediately looked away. If I'd been honest I should have said something, and maybe I will next time.
Witti
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 7, 2008, at 5:29:06
In reply to Re: Memories (triggers), posted by turtle on December 6, 2008, at 12:05:04
Turtle,
Thank you for your reply. When I first started to think back about my upbringing it was so painful because of the fact I had accepted it all those years and now suddenly I saw it for what it was - there was no perspective. At times it feels 'unreal' because it was 'normal' - we lived in a strange crazy world under that roof. What shouldn't have been normal was made to be normal - my dad still lives under that roof with my mother, and still goes along with it.
And such an experience doesn't set one up for life - it makes one expect to be treated that way by others. I think by the time I was 18 I was 'broken' (perhaps rather like your being in 'lockdown') - I didn't know at the time that but now I see it. And it's like I have to relearn things that I should just 'know'.
I'm very sorry you also have to deal with this. I think I am fortunate I can remember what happened more or less from 4 upwards. And for me I have a mix of unpleasant and pleasant memories, and that makes it all the more bizarre. It is scary not knowing and wondering why on earth one doesn't know.
Perhaps the appeal of knowing is that your mind can't wander anymore - everything is available to you, you can keep it safely in a box and take parts of it out to examine and make sense of everything. It's in my nature to want to get to the bottom of things - to understand everything and not leave things unknown.
Maybe I also need to have a clear idea of my goals in therapy. I think one is to be content with who I am - or even just to be who I am - to accept myself, not hate myself. I like the phrase "live in my own skin". My mother always made a big thing of blame/culpability - she would tell me over and over that I never thought it was my fault. At a certain point I started saying sorry almost obsessively - she could accuse me of whatever she liked and I would have to say sorry even if I had nothing to do with it - if I said otherwise then I was a 'liar'. People still tease me now because I say sorry all the time. It's embarrassing. So maybe that's why I feel uncomfortable sitting with my feelings - that I feel that in accepting who I am and what happened is in itself a form of blaming or finger pointing. I have no intention or desire to confront my mother, I just want to be able to live without too much anxiety - I just want to be normal.
Thank you so much for your advice about moving forward with self healing - listening to ones feelings, ones body, taking in the facts about ones childhood and going from there. At the moment things are stirred up, and it has been on my mind - what happened that I don't remember? I try not to think at all about my earliest memories and now I am because it makes me feel so uneasy. I really admire how insightful you are about this matter - you clearly have worked very hard. It's inspiring.
I think your revelation is spot on - allowing yourself to make sense of it all, trusting your instincts/feelings is a form of self-care/self-nurture. Denial and shutting yourself down being the opposite.
I think this reply is a bit disjointed - I just read through your post and wrote my thoughts. I hope it makes sense.
I really appreciate the time and effort you took to write what you did - it means a great deal will be very helpful to me.
Good luck on your journey.
Witti
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 7, 2008, at 5:33:36
In reply to Re: Memories (triggers), posted by Nadezda on December 6, 2008, at 11:51:04
Thank you Nadezda,
I value your posts too. You've put many of my current thoughts into words in your reply - it's good to know there are others who have experienced something similar and have the same struggle as adults.
I'm learning now how to protect myself and keep my boundaries. Your post makes me feel more optimistic about the future. You really have a gift with language.
Witti
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 7, 2008, at 5:49:42
In reply to Re: Memories - definite triggers » Wittgensteinz, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2008, at 12:19:29
Dinah,
I'm sorry if you felt in any way pressured to reply. I hope this wasn't the trigger/cause of your upset. I hope in any case that you are feeling better today.
It always hits me how wise and honest you are in what you write and how you reflect on things.
Strong reactions are difficult things - we can't ignore them but when there is nothing concrete underlying (or at least nothing we can remember) it creates an unpleasant mystery. I have the feeling you are for the most part in acceptance of these uncertainties and that's a positive thing for me to realise - that it is possible just to live with them and move on - accept that one just cannot know, rather than being held in suspended animation.
The perspective you have regarding ones interpretation of the events (dependent on a set of factors rather than the events themselves being important) is something I need to internalise. I still struggle with the question "do I have a right to feel this way" - and when I ask my T this, he will respond with "well that's part of the problem!".
> And kids don't really share their conclusions, do they?
*** No! It's hard being a kid - regardless of the circumstances. I hope you were able to reassure your son.
Thank you.
Witti
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 7, 2008, at 6:02:45
In reply to Re: Memories (triggers too, esp warning for Dinah) » Wittgensteinz, posted by rskontos on December 6, 2008, at 18:28:47
Rsk,
No, please don't be sorry. Thanks for writing this but there's no need at all to be sorry. I didn't realise my babblemail was off - it's a long while since I've used it.
I know what you mean about having a busy head - sometimes it's just enough to keep going.
Witti
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 7, 2008, at 6:43:14
In reply to just an amazing and moving post... » Wittgensteinz, posted by twinleaf on December 6, 2008, at 23:16:06
Twinleaf,
Ironically, although this is on my mind, in other aspects of my life things are going well - I'm holding together fine - maybe that's why I am able to look at this at this point.
I understand that my post may have been triggering for people - it is an uncomfortable area - most people are probably a bit hazy about their earliest years and that in combination with strong negative feelings/recollections makes for a uniquely sensitive subject. I have the feeling that these earliest things hold the greatest power over me. That they shaped all to come, they laid the foundations of who I am now.
I know I do avoid things in therapy (perhaps in part unconsciously). I ended up talking about the incident that happened as a teen after having a series of disturbing dreams - it made the topic unavoidable.
I think you may be right. I think the pdoc has good intentions but it does feel like he's trying to be more than he should. He routinely asks me for example what I'm discussing at that point with my therapist - I avoid answering. His questioning about my sex life began with the obvious question about the effect of the meds on libido but then he didn't stop. I said something like, I hadn't noticed a change on taking the meds or on stopping with them, as my libido was already affected beforehand. Instead of leaving it there, he probed why and then said "or it is too difficult to answer?", which made me feel like I had to answer... so I said I'd had an unpleasant experience while at university... then he asked if it was my "first time"... and then whether my boyfriend pressured me about sex now ("does he want sex more often than you want it?")... and I just said "these are not easy questions to answer" - then he made the comment: would it be easier talking with a woman than a man... then, do you talk with Dr. S. about this? ...You really should discuss this with him and not avoid it... by which point I wanted the session to end and felt nauseous. What would he have said had I just been honest and said "I'm making progress, I can let him hug me now without wincing". It was a 20 minute appointment. I left feeling like I was doing my boyfriend a great injustice by not doing what I should. I also felt a bit violated by all the personal questions. Luckily he later said "that's not what's important right now - I just want you to get better". That was a relief.
Perhaps I went on a bit there!
Thanks for your post - as insightful as ever :)
Witti
Posted by Dinah on December 7, 2008, at 10:15:57
In reply to Re: Memories - definite triggers » Dinah, posted by Wittgensteinz on December 7, 2008, at 5:49:42
No, I was upset about the latest example of same old same old at work. I took Risperdal yesterday and now am feeling better.
It probably would be a difficult topic for me, no matter what. As you say, I do accept the uncertainties and I also accept (usually) that my reactions are valid to my biology and my history.
I would like to give you some hope that things can get better. I went to a sex therapist for months, and things really didn't get better because she was aiming for changing who I was enough to aim for a traditional sex life. One or two sessions with my regular therapist came at the right time and included the right ingredients, and my husband would agree that the problem is one I can consider solved. I would never have considered that possible. He didn't do anything particularly brilliant from a conventional therapy standpoint. He didn't introduce any insight into why I am what I am. He just more or less gave me permission to be who I am, and to work out an arrangement with my husband that couldn't be by any means be considered traditional, but that is acceptable to both of us. The thing that actually helped me most was the glint of appreciation in his eyes and the ring of sincerity in his voice that made me feel confident enough to talk about it openly with my husband. Go figure. Because he understood and accepted me, he was able to help me in a way that the sex expert couldn't. If it can happen with me, in a way that I don't find distasteful or upsetting, it can happen with *anyone*. If your relationship allows you to take your time, so much the better.
My son was much reassured, and I just was enormously pleased that he said anything to me.
Posted by Dinah on December 7, 2008, at 10:21:22
In reply to posting about difficult things, posted by Wittgensteinz on December 7, 2008, at 4:25:58
We used to frequently refer to "poster's remorse" for that feeling of terror after disclosing something particularly personal or personally important.
I suffer from it frequently, along with its sibling "chatter's remorse".
It's never wrong to post about a topic on Babble. But I suppose it is possible to have topics that people don't quite know how to respond to. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with posting it. Just that the people currently reading don't quite understand. I've had that experience too, and now and then vow not to post about certain things. So I understand how it feels, but it's never wrong.
Posted by muffled on December 7, 2008, at 10:38:13
In reply to Re: posting about difficult things » Wittgensteinz, posted by Dinah on December 7, 2008, at 10:21:22
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 7, 2008, at 15:59:15
In reply to Re: Memories (triggers) » Wittgensteinz, posted by muffled on December 6, 2008, at 20:10:21
Thank you Muffled,
Your reply was full of wise perceptions - you're right memory is a can of worms (that is a funny expression isn't it!?). It's strange how something doesn't really matter for a long while, or at least isn't in mind and then something triggers it and then you can't escape from it.
When I studied psychology, one thing I came across was 'childhood amnesia' - the phenomenon of not retaining ones earliest memories. Before a certain age we are blank or at the most very sketchy. I guess because the brain hasn't quite developed enough by that point. Of course without language, memory is also inhibited. The relationship between thought and language is complex and interesting. It's also interesting how the adult mind interprets the childhood memories - of course a memory can be seen and experienced from different perspectives.
I'm sorry you're struggling with this too, and I hope you weren't too triggered to post.
Thank you Muffled and sorry I didn't reply earlier.
Witti
Posted by lucie lu on December 7, 2008, at 17:44:24
In reply to Re: :( I wish I hadn't posted this now » lucie lu, posted by Wittgensteinz on December 7, 2008, at 4:51:24
> LL,
>
> Thank you for your reassuring post - it really touched me. I think if anyone I owe you (babblers) an apology for being inpatient and potentially pressuring people into posting on a topic they perhaps weren't comfortable with. I didn't really appreciate how raw it would be to so many. In a way, that fact alone makes me feel less alone.
>
> I haven't really talked about my current thoughts at length yet with my T. Friday's session involved numerous topics - it began with Sinterklaas (we celebrate St. Nicolas Eve in Holland) and we each had a chocolate (I brought him a box of chocolates). I did touch on this question I have about my perception of my mother as sadistic (something I recall feeling since I was very young) and whether she really was - or perhaps that she meant well but went about it in the wrong way - she was abused by her father - maybe she knew no different. This matters to me because she's still there - she still contacts me (and visits from time to time) - and each time I see her or hear from her I am filled with guilt and disgust. My T emphasised that my feelings were as they were - that the fact I found her sadistic was important and significant. He then started to talk very softly and rather quickly in Dutch. His voice was so soft and caring I melted a little but I didn't take in entirely what he said - I know he was talking about my attempt, but what he said exactly I don't know - it was more as if he was saying it to himself and not me. It was near the end of the session and I had the feeling he was weeping - I glanced over and he had his hand to his face, so I immediately looked away. If I'd been honest I should have said something, and maybe I will next time.
>
> Witti
>Ah Witti, that is just so touching about what your T did. I love that he was soft and warm and that you felt melted with his caring. I love the image that maybe he was weeping for you. I have new feelings about your T. I am so glad you feel cared for by him.
Lucie
Posted by Wittgensteinz on December 7, 2008, at 17:48:24
In reply to Re: Memories (triggers), posted by lucie lu on December 7, 2008, at 0:12:52
Hi Lucie Lu,
I'm sorry to hear how hard a time you're having with your mum this weekend. My mum's visits are always difficult for me too but I feel too guilty to say "no". I'll probably visit home after Christmas (although I'm not going home for Christmas itself).
I think inconsistent/unpredictable parents are very damaging for a child - how can one internalise a parent who has two conflicting personalities? I can understand why your relationship with your mother is so complex - it sounds like she didn't play the roll of a typical mother when you were growing up and it's amazing you still were able to be close to her - that's a testament to your inner strength.
My mother also has two 'personalities' and it's caused me similar problems. I suspect she has borderline PD but she would never in a million years go and see a 'shrink' and I would never dare question her mental health (my father has also said at times that there is something wrong but likewise he doesn't have the nerve to suggest she gets help). In general, I find it hard to integrate the positive and negative of a person (of course no-one is perfect) - if I see something bad I tend to get scared and run, or else shut down any trust I had for that person. My mother could be cruel but she could also be a very good mother - she loved to buy presents for example (but she also loved to take them away again) - she is an excellent cook, at school she had very good contact with my teachers and would stand up for me if there were problems - in public she was friendly and kind. But in home life she could be happy and chirpy one moment then a switch would flick in her head and she'd become hysterical and mean. You said you don't get validation from your family because your mum is now recovered and stable - I can understand how heart-wrenching and frustrating that must be. You lived a very different experience with a very different woman and validation is such an important thing. Fortunately, in my case my partner has been very validating - perhaps because there have been occasions when my mother has shown her other side toward him, and because he's visited my parents' home and seen first hand how many strange rules and restrictions there are.
The thought that comes to mind is - does your mum provide any validation now that she is recovered? Does she have a role in helping you heal? What are her reflections on your upbringing? How do her reflections affect your feelings toward her now?
In a way, it must be a delight for you to see her having a positive influence on your family now despite all that went on in the past. At the same time, I think if I were in your situation I'd feel an injustice - I'd want to point out that she wasn't this way to ME when I was little - I'd feel bitter. It's ironic as for a long time I held onto the hope that I might one day do something that would change my mother or bring myself into her favour - but now I come to think about it, would that really make things better? It would bring its own set of challenges.
I think the pdoc has good intentions - he's much better than the last one who didn't have a clue about me - I think he knew more about me after one meeting than the other one did in all the time I saw him - old pdoc never brought up sex, he did talk about his dog and the building work he was having done on his house though. My T persuaded me to change pdocs. I might just have to be frank with him that I often feel triggered my the directness of the questions and to not push too much. I think he will respect that.
I hope you're able to find some peace and time for yourself after this weekend to process how you feel about it all. I think it's admirable that you have found forgiveness for what she put you through and acceptance for who she now is. Her changing/recovering has presented new challenges in itself. I think she needs to be realistic too though about the effects of her past on you, and I really hope she respects your boundaries now.
Take care (((Lucie Lu))).
Witti
Posted by lucie lu on December 7, 2008, at 18:22:16
In reply to Re: Memories (triggers) » lucie lu, posted by Wittgensteinz on December 7, 2008, at 17:48:24
Hi Witti,You are always so perceptive in your posts. The twin issues of validation and accountability can be so complicated when the problem is/was substance abuse. Unlike someone who is merely a bad, evil person, the addicted parent can be loving and well-meaning, and yet terribly destructive. I guess for my own selfish reasons, I prefer to have my mom seen as she is now, that my husband and kids see the best in her. They do not disbelieve me about my childhood, thankfully, and I think that makes all the difference. But all of that happened a long time before any of them were on the scene, and I love that they all have such close relationships with her now. The only bad relationship that remains is in a buried part of me, with the mother that she was - sometimes- about forty years ago. I don't like to revisit that, at least outside the therapy room and even then only when it is pertinent or unavoidable.
I don't know what happened to me this weekend. I should have been able to handle it, she was just being somewhat more irritable and demanding than t=she usually is now and - poof - I was falling down the rabbit hole of childhood. I have been pretty fragile recently.
Her owning of her alcoholism, and its benefit to me, also is complicated. When I was growing up, I was the oldest and parentified child. I would come home from school and she would be drunk and weeping, and I would have to (for my own emotional survival) comfort her and make things right to the extent that I could. So I never wanted to upset her applecart because I would have to clean up the apples! She still drinks occasionally, she is not officially a recovered alcoholic, but not to excess or to self-medicate any more. I have not seen her drunk for decades, literally. But after she stopped, she would go on self-excoriating trips when we were together and I learned soon to stop those quickly. I do not need her guilt and remorse because again, I do not want to have to deal with it. If I support her, she is the best that she can be. Was that OK when I was a child? Lord, no, and I am still cleaning up the mess from that. But that was then, and now is now. It was more than forty years ago. And, when I'm feeling fragile, still feels like yesterday, so I try not to feel fragile.
Thanks for your posts, Witti. And happy Sinterklaas :)
Lucie
Posted by antigua3 on December 8, 2008, at 9:20:52
In reply to Memories (triggers), posted by Wittgensteinz on December 5, 2008, at 16:03:36
Hey Witti--
I haven't been on the boards all weekend, so I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to reply.Couple of things I want to say:
1. I often feel that what I write here is "too much" for others, and I feel badly about that because I wish I hadn't posted things that are so personal. When I don't get replies, I feel "ashamed" of what i've written, for myself.
2. Something about your post struck me immediately. By opening up and telling, you've let your "secret" out, and that can be a very shaming experience because of the responsibility we may feel (at least I do although rationally I know that's not true). But by letting the secret "out," we find ways to deal w/it; it's not in our minds, but straight out there to deal with. And while that can bring immense amounts of shame (for me, anyway), it can be a step to healing. Just think of the power that "no more secrets" can have. But also, sometimes who/what we tell can be the wrong person/situation. Not everyone is prepared to deal with these things. That's my experience, in any case. Sometimes telling the wrong person (someone who doesn't understand) can be more hurtful in many, many ways. The beauty of babble is that there are lots of people who can understand. They can't always respond (we all can't, myself included) because of what it brings up in them. But just by putting it out there, you've helped others to face things, and that's very difficult for so many of us.
3. My pdoc is not an analyst (who knows what he really is), but he pushes very hard sometimes, and often hurts me by doing this. In comparison, my T is very soft and lets me do the leading. For me, the combo works well most of the time, but I certainly can't deny that the pressure from my pdoc has pushed me over the edge sometimes. Sometimes it's intentional on his behalf, sometimes it's not. I know this because I've asked, and he has agreed that sometimes it's intentional, to take my places he may think I'm ready to go, but I clearly don't think I'm ready. When that happens, I have to protect myself first, his mode of therapy be damned.
Please take care,
antigua
Posted by B2chica on December 10, 2008, at 12:31:20
In reply to Re: Memories (triggers too, esp warning for Dinah), posted by Wittgensteinz on December 6, 2008, at 12:25:42
>>It's a pity the past can't just stay that way and that we can't just go on into the future with a fresh start.
i hadn't commented on this thread because it is sooo triggering for me, i could only read about one post at a time then i'd have to leave.
but i'm to this comment of yours now and i just feel strongly and want to share with you that through my experience of trauma, depression, anxiety and all the other horrors of abuse, i feel like the one thing i've learned is that once i can see the past for what it is, and wrap my mind around it that the future WILL be a fresh start. one without all my baggage, (at least a much smaller one).That denial and misunderstandings of flashbacks were so much more painful to me, then getting them out to a safe T. and ONLY when i was ready did i finally start, not just 'saying' what happened, but started talking about it. it is now that i'm starting to see that i CAN have a future with a mostty fresh start. no i'm not erasing what happened, but i'm accepting that my memories are true and their mine no matter how horrible they are. and when my denial washes away and i talk, i sometimes feel a burst of acceptance...i feel stronger.
you will too. i promise.
it will take time. but you will.
b2c.
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