![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 19 to 43 of 49. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on October 1, 2006, at 10:12:04
In reply to Re: psychosis as a choice? » Jost, posted by alexandra_k on October 1, 2006, at 4:51:33
That was written a long time before MRI's etc. Back when autism was considered to be caused by refrigerator moms.
Now they've got proof that the brains of schizophrenics are different than the brains of non-schizophrenics, that chronic depression alters the physical brain, etc.
They were probably doing the best with the information they had. But we've got more information now.
BTW, as someone with a long time involvement with multiple generations of dogs, I'd pretty much have to reject the hypothesis anyway. Dogs are capable of being anxious, depressed, euthymic, dysthmic, and any range of things that fall into mental illness. And it's utterly amazing how many of those things are genetic, down to small behavior anomalies. And it's not nurture either, because sometimes it goes father to puppy, and the puppy has never seen the father in its life.
What I've found is that many to most traits (illnesses if they're traits that prevent effective functioning) are genetic. But their expression (how they manifest themselves in actual behavior) in many cases has to do with environment. So in humans, I would imagine that some illnesses are congenital (genetic or otherwise), and that others are a result of an interplay of genetic or congenital factors and environment (per the research on attachment and neurobiology or per Linehan's model of the invalidating environment coupled with emotional lability).
Chosen? I don't believe so, and I can see how the assumption on the part of mental health professionals who may have never seen an MRI or SPECT scan could be hurtful. Thank heavens we've come a long way since then, although I'm not a huge fan of the mainstream biological reductionism of today either.
Is my experience anecdotal? Sure. But I think you'd be hard pressed to find an observant person who is familiar with multiple generations of dogs on both sides who would disagree.
A different species? Sure. And of course there are differences between dogs and humans. But they aren't completely different, and this is one area where I'd say they weren't.
Posted by muffled on October 1, 2006, at 11:13:39
In reply to Re: Do you believe this? » muffled, posted by alexandra_k on October 1, 2006, at 4:45:04
> Hey Muffled. I know its not true in general. I'm just wondering if it is true for me. I've... Been told it is often enough to get me thinking on it...
***Alex, you got some issues....
No question.
Its just you sound so knowledgable, mebbe you throw T's off?
But cerebrally knowing stuff, is alot diff. than having fears and emotions and stuff inside, messing with your life....
mebbe you need to get down to real basics, insteada all the dx and science stuff. Just get down and dig in the actual basic shitpile of stuff that messes up your life.
You could say the same for me, but what of all my weird sh*t in me? I want to be more stable. I'm trying. I don't WANT to be this way.
But I AM improving.
I can't understand alot of the brainy stuff you say...
Then sometimes you go with real gut stuff...
And you say stuff....
But I still feel i know so little bout the real inside Alex...
I dunno why?
Curious really.
Hmmmmm.
Take care Alex,
Muffled
Posted by madeline on October 1, 2006, at 16:24:47
In reply to Do you believe this? » alexandra_k, posted by Racer on September 30, 2006, at 13:16:22
I hope that these theories are correct. That somehow I have the power to choose whether or not I want to be depressed, manic, psychotic, schizophrenic etc....
Imagine how wonderful that would be. We could choose to be free from all this that binds us.
Instead of just being helpless victims of illness, we could bring ourselves out of it.
I hope more research is done on this theory. Because, boy, if I knew how to choose differently, you'd better believe I would.
Posted by ElaineM on October 1, 2006, at 17:15:49
In reply to I have a different take on this., posted by madeline on October 1, 2006, at 16:24:47
This was what I was thinking of though I wasn't (still not) sure that what I was writing about was the "Intentional Paradigm". I'll throw it out here anyways and someone is free to name it something else, if I'm wrong.
================>>>>>>The *Intentional paradigm* also assumes there are no mental illnesses. [never mind the *in general* notion. worrying about me here] Instead, abnormal behaviour is seen as the volountary adoption of strategies to cope with difficult circumstances. 'Our view of psychosis [never mind *psychosis* worrying about me] constitutes more a 'way of life' hypothesis than a 'disease' hypothesis.
I don't know, I interpret the "Intentional Paradigm" differently, though I usually refer to it as the Socio-Cultural explanation for mental illness. I haven't read the specific book quoted from, so I'm only gonna refer to the quotes given. Most of my work on Mental Illness was sociologically based, reading alot of Goffman's work on Total Institutions, and the Stimga of MI. This is all just my own impression, and I likely won't be able to expand on it anymore than I do in this post cause my head is foggy and the words don't come. But, when I read "way of life", I don't find it insulting or feel that it negates psychological pain or suggests I chose the circumstances I grew up in or the events that happened to me.
>>>>We assume the patient to have what he regards as good reasons for behaving the way he does - that he has in mind some purpose from which his behaviour logically follows.
I think here the patient can sound either sinister or not depending on how you look at it. "Good reasons" and "purpose" make it sound overtly contrived, but to me the sentence just says that people engage in behaviours that they believe will benefit them within the circumstances they live. Isn't that what coping is? Developing anorexia I evidently once thought (and still am often trapped there) that at that point in my life, during the f*cked up stuff that was going on at that particular time, within the dynamics of how I had been living and grown up in, that losing weight would make living not only more tolerable, but *possible*. I think if I hadn't (unconsciously) chosen anorexia I would have committed suicide -- I would not have been alive today. I'm not saying that in the long run anorexia is not as bad, but just that it was a coping strategy to survive an unbareable condition. It doesn't mean it (or any other MI, or like SI) is healthy -- It's not. And ideally, the person (who deserve's such) would get help to function in a *healthy way* in a *healthy circumstance*.
>>>>>And Szasz, who sees hysterical behaviour as a game played by a person to get help,
Again, I'm not so well read, this wasn't the focus of my degree, but (and this is a literal question) is it possible that "game played" was only being used synonimously with "strategy enacted" or "technique implimented", or something like that.
>>>>>>first, that 'symptoms' are really volountary actions performed as a result of desires (to cope) and beliefs (that this strategy is the best way to cope)
Yes, this makes sense to me.
>>>>>>And second, 'symptoms' occur as a result of situations where such strategies are intelligible...
To me this second part eliminates the possibility of the socio-cultural model of MI placing blame. Actions are unconsciously (or also sometimes consciously) chosen because in the context in which they occur they seem to make perfect sense. When actions are placed in a different context, that's when the word "disordered" would be unfairly used to describe the action. Family systems theory (I think) is based upon this idea. It makes sense to me. I'm not saying that there aren't medical brain illnessess, but I don't think that that's what's being proposed by the "intentional" model. I just see it as another way to explain the occurence of "MI" where there is no biological or physiological root cause. I guess aruging can occur because I kinda remember reading somewhere that behaviours (ie. CBT) can alter reactions in the brain, for some things. I don't know, perhaps academic posts are over my head.
>>>>SInce he is volountarily bringing about his disturbing behaviour, he is responsible for it. In fact, on this paradigm, it is often the very existence of the sick role that makes such disturbed behaviour possible
For me, I only interpret "voluntary" to mean that the symptoms are not biologically caused. I don't necessarily interpret "voluntary" as having a negative connotation. Although it does also happen the other way, if patients "choose" their behaviour it's because it *doesn't* seem (or at least not completely, or even orginally) disordered to them. They are acting "logically" according to the environment/circumstance they are in, so they cannot be "blamed". Like in studying family systems for example, when Dad and Mom are fighting at home, a child may "act out" to pull focus -- providing the parents with a source of common focus as a distraction from the anger between the two, keeping the family together. Often it is the child that is brought in for treatment and labelled mentally ill for their "dysfunctional" behaviours, when really they are filling a necessary role in their family. The child is behaving "logically" according to what is needed for the family system to balence out -- their "MI" is really the symptom of the dysfunctional marriage.
I don't know maybe I'm naive but it makes sense to me. Is my anorexia my fault? Technically, I *did* starve myself. Nobody forced me to do that. Yes, I chose that. But I did NOT choose the events that prompted me to "choose" the starvation as the only "logical" option to me. And to me, that erases the idea of placing moral blame on the patient, on me.
Yet, I also agree that the "playing at madness" can occur. Though I think it would be to "perpetuate" the sick-role, and not "originate" it. That's where most of my reading of Goffman came in - how total institutions further MI. I can see the "benefits of the sick-role" as being an attempt to escape the stigma of what it means to carry the MI label in certain societies. I see a patient choosing institutionalization as choosing the only environment they feel they can function in, or at least the one that feels safer. I can personally say that the longer I was in the hospital, the more afraid I was to leave -- you learn all the "inside rules", the staff and how to relate, secondary MI, group cohesion and acceptance instead of stigma. It is hard to explain but easy to experience. But often when I was out of the hospital, I longed to be back in, and often did end up back there -- Though I know that doesn't occur with every person who ends up in total institution.
I guess, just in general, I don't feel the intentional paradigm is a blaming one -- at least not in a "I choose the pain that I've suffered" way, or in an "I deserve all the sh*t that happened to me" way. I don't think that the Int.Paradigm suggests that the patient doesn't deserve help. To me it doesn't have anything to do with *wanting to be sick* -- it actually has to do with a patient's first attempt at *wanting to feel better*. Goffman's study of total institutions suggested that the patient didn't deserve the sick label, because it forces a sick identity. The patient derserves *better* than that label affords them.
Okay, I'm kinda scared cause this is the first "something other than emotional support" post I've made. I've probably asked more questions in my post than argued anything but oh well. Sorry if I'm confusing, the thinking part of my brain is rusty. If I'm crossing theories here let me know because I focused on Sociology during my studies. But I'm trying to argue that I agree with the beliefs of everyone who've posted, but am saying that I'm not sure that the Int.P. exists to contradict those beliefs.
So, am I confusing this with something else?
Posted by madeline on October 1, 2006, at 17:49:23
In reply to This was what I thought of, posted by ElaineM on October 1, 2006, at 17:15:49
i thought that was very intelligent, rational post.
Thank you for your insight.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 1, 2006, at 19:44:27
In reply to Re: psychosis as a choice?, posted by Dinah on October 1, 2006, at 10:12:04
> That was written a long time before MRI's etc.
Yes. Before the success of pharmacology, in particular.
> Now they've got proof that the brains of schizophrenics are different than the brains of non-schizophrenics...
Well...
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20060922/msgs/688958.html
One trouble is that the theorists involved have become known as part of the 'anti-psychiatry' movement. Another trouble is that the anti-psychiatry movement tends to get muddled up with the scientologists. When people are simplifying a theorists position (to summarise it to make it manageable) sometimes they don't give the fairest summary. It can be hard to grasp what theorists are thinking when they have a huge body of work too. And here, the *intentional paradigm* isn't just a simplistic summary of one person, it is a simplistic summary of a whole bunch of people. You end up with a fairly short statement of a theory but you may well have your work cut out for you if you wanted to establish that anyones considered opinion was that that was a fair statement of their views.
> What I've found is that many to most traits (illnesses if they're traits that prevent effective functioning) are genetic. But their expression (how they manifest themselves in actual behavior) in many cases has to do with environment.Yeah. The genes determine (or fix the probablility of) unfolding / maturation / development from within, and the environment (incl social env. and nutrition and cognition and stuff) fix unfolding / maturation / development from without...
> Chosen? I don't believe so
Though they allow the 'choice' can be unconscious. This idea fits well with how some symptoms were prevalent at certain times while some other symptoms are prevalent at certain other times. Hysterical paralysis (for example) was a frequent complain around the time of Freud and Bruer whereas it is very rarely encountered today. That suggests that there are different 'choices' as to how one expresses ones distress... Biology can't explain that one (symptom 'choice' in those cases). Maybe symptom 'selection' sounds better than symptom 'choice'?
> although I'm not a huge fan of the mainstream biological reductionism of today either.
Yeah.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 1, 2006, at 19:49:31
In reply to Re: Do you believe this? » alexandra_k, posted by muffled on October 1, 2006, at 11:13:39
> ...mebbe you throw T's off?
> But cerebrally knowing stuff, is alot diff. than having fears and emotions and stuff inside, messing with your life....
> mebbe you need to get down to real basics, insteada all the dx and science stuff. Just get down and dig in the actual basic shitpile of stuff that messes up your life.Yeah Muffled. I'm reading this because it is thesis related. I've decided not to go there in my thesis, anyway, but I think it is important to understand some of the views. Even if it is just historical interest. But then I do have a bit of a side interest in how it all relates to me...
Yeah, I think you are right that I throw my t's off. I don't mean to. But I guess I do. Sometimes I don't know what to say... And sometimes t's find silence hard. So I try and think of something to say and the only thing that seems manageable is to talk about my week for a bit... And to talk about what I've been reading and stuff. I guess... It is a defence, yeah.
The sh*tpile of stuff...
I'm not sure how to get to that. I'm not sure how to talk about that. I'm really not sure...
I forgot to ask my t for her email address last week. So... You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to try and write something for her. And I'll read it to her. I'll try and make it fairly short and managable. But I need to figure out how to connect with her.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 1, 2006, at 19:56:25
In reply to I have a different take on this., posted by madeline on October 1, 2006, at 16:24:47
> Imagine how wonderful that would be. We could choose to be free from all this that binds us.
> I hope more research is done on this theory. Because, boy, if I knew how to choose differently, you'd better believe I would.
I hear you. The word 'choice' is something that I find particularly hard... The notion of 'choice' is all tied up in the notion of blame and responsibility. It is also a point that theory doesn't exist in isolation... Usually something like a treatment plan follows from the theory. And... What is the treatment plan that follows from this theory?
Sounds like no treatment to me.
And yeah, that is a bit hard to take. I don't think that follows... May have followed in practice. May be that the people (if there are any) who believe symptoms are a 'choice' thought that the best treatment was to discharge the person and that was all. There are behaviourist views (I'm thinking of Spanos in particular, who wrote about treatment) where they called it 'strategic enactment'. They thought that the people who strategically enacted mental illness symptoms were indeed mentally ill. They were cautioning against a clinician overfocusing on the symptoms, however. The notion was that the symptoms are a strategic enactment, but the point that the person did strategically enact meant that they were indeed mentally ill. So they had a treatment plan. Though the treatment plan sounds rather... Worrying too... The notion is to punish (ignore) the symptoms and reward (praise with attention and the like) non symptom behaviour. Thus the patients behaviour would be shaped towards successive approximations of mental health, one can only suppose.
I have trouble with that view too...
Posted by alexandra_k on October 1, 2006, at 21:27:35
In reply to This was what I thought of, posted by ElaineM on October 1, 2006, at 17:15:49
Sometimes different fields lable the same things differently, and label distinct things with the same term. I have been struggling with the notion of 'dualism' as it is used in psychiatry / psychology. It might well be that sociologists use the term 'intentional paradigm' differently from how this guy (psychiatrist) is using it. In philosophy the closest I've come to the term 'intentional paradigm' is Dennett's notion of the 'intentional stance' which is a very different notion...
> I don't know, I interpret the "Intentional Paradigm" differently, though I usually refer to it as the Socio-Cultural explanation for mental illness.
Okay. So I have gotten interested in philosophy of psychiatry. I do analytic philosophy rather than continental and there really isn't much analytic philosophy of psychiatry out there... I found one very recent, very good book on the topic and he said that to the best of his knowledge his was the only book written on the topic. I was a little surprised so I had a hunt in the library and I found this "The Philosophical Defence of Psychiatry". He talks about the following paradigms in psychiatry:
- The medical paradigm
- The psychodynamic paradigm
- The behavioural paradigm (though he lumps cognitive in there too on occasion)
- The intentional paradigm
- The sociological paradigm
He says that one might be concerned that these paradigms all compete and thus psychiatry is in a hopelessly fragmented state. What he aims to do, however, is to show how they are all different theories (that can compliment or conflict) within the over-arching medical paradigm. For the most part he tries to show the different theories are consistent. He also acknowledges conflict, however, (in case falsification is important).This is what he says about the sociological paradigm:
'The sociological paradigm also contradicts the medical paradigm by assuming that there are no mental illnesses. Instead, disturbed behaviour is seen as the consequence of social forces.
> The social model maintains that mental illness is related clearly to social factors and there is no difficulty in predicting that one will follow from the other. For example, it has been shown in many studies that people who live in poor deprived geographical areas, who are unemployed and in unsatisfactory housing and have no special occupational skills, are likely to suffer higher rates of mental illness than the rest of the population (Tyrer and Steinberg, 1987, p. 77)
> Abnormal behaviour is seen as a symptom of a disturbed society, and for this reason the individual is not consideed ill - if anything is ill, it is society. This paradigm makes a number of assumptions. First, that abnormal behaviour can be the result of labelling. And second, that abnormal behaviour can be the result of averse social circumstances. In this way, the sociological paradigm seeks an explanation for the patient's behaviour outside that individual in a sick social group' p. 142
___________________________________
> is it possible that "game played" was only being used synonimously with "strategy enacted" or "technique implimented", or something like that.Yes, I think so. But I could be wrong... I think the notion of playing a game isn't meant to convey glee or anything. More a strategic enactment, yeah.
> Okay, I'm kinda scared cause this is the first "something other than emotional support" post I've made.((((Elaine))))
I know some people don't like these kinds of discussions... But I guess there are enough threads and posts for people to pick and choose what interests them. I get a lot out of them. Thanks for putting yourself 'out there' to talk to me :-) I appreciate it a whole heap.> I've probably asked more questions in my post than argued anything but oh well.
Thats cool :-) I wasn't arguing anything either. Just presenting a theory as this guy wrote about it. I'm not sure if his is the most perspicuous statement of it. He has a chapter on it, but I don't think I'm going to read it... I started doing a lot of work on the book, but he makes some fairly dodgey philosophical claims. I think that is why... Other analytic philosophers have fairly much ignored him... But I wanted to write about different 'paradigms' and different levels of explanation and how they relate to one another. I don't think I'll write on the particular paradigms he has chosen, however. They don't seem to be a part of mainstream theorising anymore, best I can figure. I think I should focus on genetic / environmental. Genetic / neurobiological. Cognitive / neuropsychological. I don't know because I don't know enough about this as yet... But I think I need to find the current productive scientific research programs and worry about how they relate to one another. There is a whole heap of decent philosophy on the nature / nurture controversy too. And a whole heap of stuff on how the biologists and social constructionists views can be synthesised for a more complete picture. I think I need to worry about them.
> Sorry if I'm confusing, the thinking part of my brain is rusty.
I don't think you are confusing, I think you are very clear. If I haven't engaged more with what you have said its because... I think you are speaking a lot of good sense.
> If I'm crossing theories here let me know because I focused on Sociology during my studies.
Thats hard for anyone looking at stuff that has been done within another discipline. I struggle with that too...
> But I'm trying to argue that I agree with the beliefs of everyone who've posted, but am saying that I'm not sure that the Int.P. exists to contradict those beliefs.
Yeah. Thats what Reznek is trying to argue. I'm not sure his arguments succeed but... I agree with the general spirit.
Posted by muffled on October 1, 2006, at 21:44:36
In reply to Re: Do you believe this? » muffled, posted by alexandra_k on October 1, 2006, at 19:49:31
> Yeah, I think you are right that I throw my t's off. I don't mean to. But I guess I do. Sometimes I don't know what to say... And sometimes t's find silence hard. So I try and think of something to say and the only thing that seems manageable is to talk about my week for a bit... And to talk about what I've been reading and stuff. I guess... It is a defence, yeah.
***Yeah. Proly you got good defenses to stay safe...
>
> The sh*tpile of stuff...
>
> I'm not sure how to get to that. I'm not sure how to talk about that. I'm really not sure...*** mebbe you could just start by talking bout stuff that triggers you. like people talking behind, and gossip, and exclusivity,and people saying you smart, things like that. Stuff that upsets you, and meebe that'll be a start in a corner of the pile, a place to begin and talk. Rather than talk bout inane type stuff. And its ok if you get upset, cuz THATS when you can process and learn stuff with your T. If you don't feel like talking bout something, then do it, lay it on the table and see what happens.
I find the best sessions usu. are a result of my behaving like an idiot sometime before......
>
> I forgot to ask my t for her email address last week. So... You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to try and write something for her. And I'll read it to her. I'll try and make it fairly short and managable. But I need to figure out how to connect with her.
>
***Mebbe don't worry so much her. mebbe just put some of the iside Alex on the paper, and see what she does with it.
Let Alex out, all her anger or pain or insecurities or confusion etc, whatever, let it come out.
See what happens.
Mebbe she a good T, mebbe not.
Good luck in it, whatever you manage.
Writing works well for me.
I write for myself, then mebbe edit slightly to give to my T. Often I don't edit at all.
Take care Alex, you a feisty little sweetie you are!!! :-)
Muffled
Posted by alexandra_k on October 1, 2006, at 23:53:27
In reply to Re: Do you believe this? » alexandra_k, posted by muffled on October 1, 2006, at 21:44:36
> *** mebbe you could just start by talking bout stuff that triggers you. like people talking behind, and gossip, and exclusivity,and people saying you smart, things like that.
Hmm...
<pout>
How did you get to know me so well...
<cross look>
Well... I guess I can't argue with that...
;-)> And its ok if you get upset, cuz THATS when you can process and learn stuff with your T. If you don't feel like talking bout something, then do it, lay it on the table and see what happens.
I'm a bit scared of showing her my emotions. Because sometimes... They are very strong. And people find that aversive. Hell... *I* find that aversive. I guess I shouldn't assume that she will find it aversive... But it is part of people generally and our culture in particular to find intense emotions to be aversive - isn't it? I'm not sure how she copes with the bits of emotions I've shown her. I remember one time she looked really very surprised... I was fine... Then I started raving about something for maybe 20 seconds and was kinda wound up with tears streaming... And then I freaked a bit and pulled myself together and was back to calm. All in the space of about 30 seconds.
I remember one of my t's... I was reading my file and she had wrote (on the basis of a single meeting) INTENSE and she underlined it about 4 times so strongly she almost ripped a whole in the page.
:-(
> ***Mebbe don't worry so much her. mebbe just put some of the iside Alex on the paper, and see what she does with it.
> Let Alex out, all her anger or pain or insecurities or confusion etc, whatever, let it come out.I... I don't know what to say...
Sometimes... I find it hard to talk. I wouldn't say anything at all... T's don't like that :-( So I've learned to talk. But I talk about... Stuff that doesn't matter. What matters? I don't know. How to get to what matters? I don't know. Sometimes I think something matters and then I say it and it doesn't seem to matter. I don't know. Confused...
> Take care Alex, you a feisty little sweetie you are!!! :-)
> MuffledThanks muffled.
((((muffled))))
I wish I wasn't feisty :-(
I'd rather be... Kind.
Take care.
Posted by muffled on October 2, 2006, at 11:18:22
In reply to Re: Do you believe this? » muffled, posted by alexandra_k on October 1, 2006, at 23:53:27
> Hmm...
> <pout>
> How did you get to know me so well...
> <cross look>
> Well... I guess I can't argue with that...
> ;-)***LOL
> I'm a bit scared of showing her my emotions. Because sometimes... They are very strong. And people find that aversive. Hell... *I* find that aversive. I guess I shouldn't assume that she will find it aversive... But it is part of people generally and our culture in particular to find intense emotions to be aversive - isn't it?***I think its part of our culture to hide emotions too much....
When they hidden they have more power, when they out in the light of day, they look different, not so mysterious.
Maybe you could say you want to understand your emtions better, and your frightened of the intensity of your emotions....> I'm not sure how she copes with the bits of emotions I've shown her. I remember one time she looked really very surprised... I was fine... Then I started raving about something for maybe 20 seconds and was kinda wound up with tears streaming... And then I freaked a bit and pulled myself together and was back to calm. All in the space of about 30 seconds.
***And did you guys talk about that? About the fact you felt she looked surprized? And maybe how that made you feel?
Or did you talk about why you HAD to suck yourself back in so quickly?
Those are little doorways that sometimes lead to other more important stuff....
S'all good...
>
> I remember one of my t's... I was reading my file and she had wrote (on the basis of a single meeting) INTENSE and she underlined it about 4 times so strongly she almost ripped a whole in the page.*******Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
Thats a bit of a peeve of mine. People making assumptions about people on very short notice.....REALLY pisses me off.....
I think you CAN be very intense. Sometimes our greatest gifts are our hardest challenges. I think your intensity is a gift, you just goto get a handle on it, cuz its a powerful gift. You could do lots of good things with your intensity...
> I... I don't know what to say...
>
> Sometimes... I find it hard to talk. I wouldn't say anything at all... T's don't like that :-( So I've learned to talk. But I talk about... Stuff that doesn't matter. What matters? I don't know. How to get to what matters? I don't know. Sometimes I think something matters and then I say it and it doesn't seem to matter. I don't know. Confused...***See thats the thing, sometimes its the most innocuous things that lead to the greatest insights.
Sometimes something I think is SO important....is nothing. Its a voyage of learning and growing.
I wonder if you are very adroitly sidestepping and redirecting conversation when it gets too close to where you don't want to go..... I dunno.
>
> > Take care Alex, you a feisty little sweetie you are!!! :-)
> > Muffled
>
> Thanks muffled.
> ((((muffled))))
> I wish I wasn't feisty :-(
> I'd rather be... Kind.
> Take care.
>
***But Alex you ARE kind. Its like I always trust that you are genuine in your caring, that no matter how involved in a debate etc you get, you will always come down to baseline and be very careful to apologise and make sure you have hurt noone. I have seen this again and again. I think feisty is GOOD. You are feisty AND very caring.
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by littleone on October 2, 2006, at 21:45:26
In reply to Re: Do you believe this? » muffled, posted by alexandra_k on October 1, 2006, at 23:53:27
Hi alex,
I think muffled had some very smart words for you. I found with my T that when we talk about head stuff (adult stuff) I feel pretty much no connection to him. Saying the words just puts up a wall between us. But if I can start talking about the feeling stuff or about about thoughts/feelings from my younger parts (I guess a lot of these would be deeper fear kind of stuff), then that's when I start to feel connected to him.
I know you've said before that you don't feel connected to your T. Do you think you're hiding behind the adult head stuff? Because if you are, then you need to remember that doing that will get you nowhere. That doing therapy is all about doing that which we find frightening. Facing your fears. And if you find it scary and threatening to show your inner self to someone, then that's exactly what you need to do. Show your T that side of you.
> I'm a bit scared of showing her my emotions. Because sometimes... They are very strong. And people find that aversive. Hell... *I* find that aversive.
If a T can't handle strong emotions, then they shouldn't be a T. It's not your role to protect your T. If you *are* doing that, then it might help to try to think of how you protected significant people in your past.
Alex, this is exactly what therapy is for. It is a safe place where you can show strong emotions.
A good starting point could be to talk to your T about why you're afraid of showing strong emotions. Let her tell you exactly what is okay or not okay. Let her help you face your fears.
> I remember one of my t's... I was reading my file and she had wrote (on the basis of a single meeting) INTENSE and she underlined it about 4 times so strongly she almost ripped a whole in the page.
For the record, I think being "intense" could easily be a strength. I think of people who have passionate ideas/concepts as intense. And I don't mean that as a put down. I think they need to be intense to drive the ideas forward. I think their energy comes out as mental intensity rather than physical exertion. Both types of release are good in my books.
> Sometimes... I find it hard to talk. I wouldn't say anything at all... T's don't like that :-( So I've learned to talk. But I talk about... Stuff that doesn't matter.
See, once again this is done to protect the T. That's not your job. If you want to go to therapy and sit in silence for an hour, then you can. It's your hour.
I think the idea of writing stuff for your T and then reading it out during your session is a really good idea. It could be a really good opportunity to talk about some of your inner stuff that you wouldn't normally talk about.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 3, 2006, at 5:02:12
In reply to Re: Do you believe this?, posted by muffled on October 2, 2006, at 11:18:22
> ***I think its part of our culture to hide emotions too much....
Well...
They found that people in American culture tend to be expressive.
In Japanese culture, however, there would be a brief flash of emotion and then it would be masked. The brief flash was enough to reliably signal to others what emotion the person was experiencing. It is typically thought that American culture is one of the most expressive cultures...There is stuff on game theory, though. About barganing ability and the like. Being able to conceal fear and the like so as to be a more effective bargainer. I wish I had more emotional control. I wish. I wish. I feel like... I wear my heart on my sleeve much of the time. I hate that. I feel... Naked. How much better to feel numb.
> ***And did you guys talk about that? About the fact you felt she looked surprized?
No. Surprise... Aversion... Slight... Fear? Concern? Concern that it would happen again. She changed the topic. I really don't think... That she thinks it is a good thing when I express emotion. I try and... Be calm. A little numb. Calm. To talk calmly. To express upset with a tear or two but that is all. To not startle. I hate me :-(
> I think you CAN be very intense. Sometimes our greatest gifts are our hardest challenges. I think your intensity is a gift, you just goto get a handle on it, cuz its a powerful gift. You could do lots of good things with your intensity...
(((Muffled)))
I don't think so. I think that is how I'm damaged.
And it is there... For all to see. Not hard to figure me out.
My supervisor said something about 'and you don't exactly treat your body as a temple'. I ignored him. But he is right. And it isn't exactly confidential information, I suppose. Munted fingernails... Anxious habits... Scars... F*cked up legs... And wearing my emotions on my sleeve :-( I hate being embodied :-(
> I wonder if you are very adroitly sidestepping and redirecting conversation when it gets too close to where you don't want to go..... I dunno.
I'm scared muffled. Scared. Numb. Scared. Numb. Numb. Numb. I don't feel anything. I DON'T. I don't know what to do... I can't think sometimes. Can't think. I hate feeling like that. In therapy sometimes. Can't understand. Can't follow. Can't... I don't know.
> ***But Alex you ARE kind. Its like I always trust that you are genuine in your caring, that no matter how involved in a debate etc you get, you will always come down to baseline and be very careful to apologise and make sure you have hurt noone. I have seen this again and again. I think feisty is GOOD. You are feisty AND very caring.
((((((((((muffled)))))))))))
Sometimes I'm not kind muffled :-( Sometimes I'm not. But I feel really privaledged that you trust me. I hope I never hurt you muffled.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 3, 2006, at 5:21:22
In reply to Opening up » alexandra_k, posted by littleone on October 2, 2006, at 21:45:26
> Hi alex,
Hey.
> I found with my T that when we talk about head stuff (adult stuff) I feel pretty much no connection to him. Saying the words just puts up a wall between us. But if I can start talking about the feeling stuff or about about thoughts/feelings from my younger parts (I guess a lot of these would be deeper fear kind of stuff), then that's when I start to feel connected to him.I think... Understanding is important to me. I feel connected when I feel like I understand someone and find what they are saying interesting or when I feel like someone understands me and finds what I have to say to be interesting. I think thats why I got on so well with my past t... In a way it kind of is a defence. In sessions... She used to switch between talking about my work or my thoughts on something and talking about my feelings or my thoughts on more personal matters. Sometimes the latter would... Get to be too much. So we would switch back to talking about the former. Sometimes she would explain something abstractly and then make it more concrete to apply to my case. And sometimes I could follow the abstract stuff but when it came to applying it to my case that was so much harder. Sometimes... I couldn't do it. I miss her so much. I've had some other clinician's since who kind of hooked into this way of doing things. But other clinician's... I don't really have an understanding connection with them and thus... I don't seem to be able to get the other sort of connection either. But I need to try harder. Try and meet her halfway. Try and do this. Try my best. See what we can do.
> If a T can't handle strong emotions, then they shouldn't be a T. It's not your role to protect your T. If you *are* doing that, then it might help to try to think of how you protected significant people in your past.I... Used to feel protective towards my Father. Because my Mother was very emotionally intense. I could see him cringing from her and she would be f*cking ropable and I'd want to protect him. But I never did. But then fairs fair he never protected me neither lol. I'm scared of me because... I'm just like her. And so I'm f*cking terrified of me. And I think that some of whats inside... I don't think anybody can handle that. I need to learn. But I have to get stronger before I start to access it. I need to be strong enough to deal with what comes up. I lost it a couple times before. Don't really remember... Years ago now. Couple of times when nurses were going on and on and on at me on the ward about causing my own distress and stuff. I felt like I started to go numb and shot out of my body from behind. I watched me lunge at the nurse and start hitting and yelling. Snapped back after getting jumped on by peoples. Curled up. Was mortified. Mortified. That happened a couple of times. I don't ever want that to happen again. It can't happen again. I'm serious. My emotions aren't safe.
> See, once again this is done to protect the T. That's not your job. If you want to go to therapy and sit in silence for an hour, then you can. It's your hour.
:-(
:-(
But it wasn't ok. I got terminated
:-(I'm sorry.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 3, 2006, at 5:43:42
In reply to Opening up » alexandra_k, posted by littleone on October 2, 2006, at 21:45:26
I'm sorry littleone. I guess... Opening up is about the scariest thing in the world for me :-(
Posted by littleone on October 3, 2006, at 22:28:27
In reply to Re: Opening up » littleone, posted by alexandra_k on October 3, 2006, at 5:21:22
> I... Used to feel protective towards my Father. Because my Mother was very emotionally intense. I could see him cringing from her and she would be f*cking ropable and I'd want to protect him. But I never did. But then fairs fair he never protected me neither lol. I'm scared of me because... I'm just like her. And so I'm f*cking terrified of me. And I think that some of whats inside... I don't think anybody can handle that.
I think it can be hard to see the differences between our beliefs and reality. For example (and I'm not saying this is the case, just something to think about) it may be possible that you grew up to believe that that type of interaction is totally intolerable and can't be handled at all.
But remember that it was the young you who first experienced that and started to believe it. Then that belief carried through to the present day you through countless instances where it was re-proven.
And it would be perfectly understandable that the young you found that intolerable. The young you probably wouldn't have had the resources to cope with it.
But a healthy and well adjusted adult probably *would* have the internal resources to handle that experience.
A good goal might be to learn to trust your T to be a healthy and well adjusted adult who has sufficient internal resources to handle experiences you might bring to your therapy. It could be very healing for you to experience your T coping with these "intense" experiences.
> But I have to get stronger before I start to access it. I need to be strong enough to deal with what comes up.
I know. It is very very hard. And will take a long time and a lot of hard work. I guess I just get worried when I see you trying to leave her. Get worried that you're doing a runner like I always want to. Leaving because you're afraid to do the real work with her.
> I watched me lunge at the nurse and start hitting and yelling. Snapped back after getting jumped on by peoples. Curled up. Was mortified. Mortified. That happened a couple of times. I don't ever want that to happen again. It can't happen again. I'm serious. My emotions aren't safe.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is that even if you don't let the emotions out during therapy, at the very least you need to talk about why you think that is unsafe. Tell her what's happened in the past, tell her what your fears are, tell her what your fears about telling her are. It was babble that taught me that if you can't talk about something, talk about talking about it.
> But it wasn't ok. I got terminated
> :-(:(
I'm sorry alex. I know I'm pushing you here and I think that's probably my own stuff leaking out. I'm sorry if it feels like a hard shove. It's not meant to be. I'd just like good things for you.
I guess I have a hard time reading people here. Like I'll see you and someone debating a point and I'll cringe and hide because it feels like an argument. But then they'll say something that makes it apparent it doesn't feel like an argument to them at all.
And then here I try to point something out to you and I think it will be fine, but instead I hurt you. I'm sorry I'm no good at this people stuff.
I feel a real strong urge to delete the top half of this post. But I won't because I think there is an important message in there. But I will say that if you don't like what I wrote, please feel free to ignore it. Like I said, I think there is my stuff leaking out there.
Posted by muffled on October 3, 2006, at 23:14:30
In reply to Re: Do you believe this? » muffled, posted by alexandra_k on October 3, 2006, at 5:02:12
> > ***I think its part of our culture to hide emotions too much....
>
> Well...
> They found that people in American culture tend to be expressive.
> In Japanese culture, however, there would be a brief flash of emotion and then it would be masked. The brief flash was enough to reliably signal to others what emotion the person was experiencing. It is typically thought that American culture is one of the most expressive cultures...***LOL. I'm canadian, I think we must be known for hiding stuff...
> There is stuff on game theory, though. About barganing ability and the like. Being able to conceal fear and the like so as to be a more effective bargainer. I wish I had more emotional control. I wish. I wish. I feel like... I wear my heart on my sleeve much of the time. I hate that. I feel... Naked. How much better to feel numb.
***Maybe it could be rephrased to, you are genuine, you are real. Mebbe its not the nicest to hide stuff and be an effective bargainer, maybe its good to be honest and real.
> > ***And did you guys talk about that? About the fact you felt she looked surprized?
>
> No. Surprise... Aversion... Slight... Fear? Concern? Concern that it would happen again. She changed the topic. I really don't think... That she thinks it is a good thing when I express emotion. I try and... Be calm. A little numb. Calm. To talk calmly. To express upset with a tear or two but that is all. To not startle. I hate me :-(***Ahhhhhhhhhh, see there's alot surrounding that small flash of 'surprize'.
I don't hate you.
Emotional control is good generally speaking, but if you got stuff to deal with, then mebbe those emots need to come around or at least be talked about, so that thwey can be dealt with...
(I talk SUCH a good line eh? Me the non expresser of emots at therapy . LOL!!!)>
> > I think you CAN be very intense. Sometimes our greatest gifts are our hardest challenges. I think your intensity is a gift, you just goto get a handle on it, cuz its a powerful gift. You could do lots of good things with your intensity...
>
> (((Muffled)))
> I don't think so. I think that is how I'm damaged.
> And it is there... For all to see. Not hard to figure me out.
> My supervisor said something about 'and you don't exactly treat your body as a temple'. I ignored him. But he is right. And it isn't exactly confidential information, I suppose. Munted fingernails... Anxious habits... Scars... F*cked up legs... And wearing my emotions on my sleeve :-( I hate being embodied :-(***Your supervisor should go f*ck himself. I suppose he treats his body as a temple???? Never drinks, smokes, eats junk food, overdoes things etc, etc.
MOST people don't treat their body as a temple.
We all have our stuff we do.
Mebbe some more than others, but your surely not alone.
>
>
> > I wonder if you are very adroitly sidestepping and redirecting conversation when it gets too close to where you don't want to go..... I dunno.
>
> I'm scared muffled. Scared. Numb. Scared. Numb. Numb. Numb. I don't feel anything. I DON'T. I don't know what to do... I can't think sometimes. Can't think. I hate feeling like that. In therapy sometimes. Can't understand. Can't follow. Can't... I don't know.***I think it may be a dissociative defense mechanism brought on by stress. Anxiety reduces memory capacity. You keep numbing cuz you scared. Don't I know. I do it too. Oftentimes in my journal I have written 'I don't even feel human, I am quasi human' and the like.
If you can relax and come to trust your T (took me over 1 1/2 yr.-and she bent over backwards to get me to trust her), then you won't get so confused.
Sometimes I feel like I'm the biggest idiot on earth cuz I don't understand the most simple, understandable relational type stuff.
>
> > ***But Alex you ARE kind. Its like I always trust that you are genuine in your caring, that no matter how involved in a debate etc you get, you will always come down to baseline and be very careful to apologise and make sure you have hurt noone. I have seen this again and again. I think feisty is GOOD. You are feisty AND very caring.
>
> ((((((((((muffled)))))))))))
> Sometimes I'm not kind muffled :-( Sometimes I'm not. But I feel really privaledged that you trust me. I hope I never hurt you muffled.
>
You proly will hurt me, and it will be ok, cuz I trust you. I will trust that we can work it out.
Its the human condition to hurt people. Everybody hurts people. We don't mean to, but it happens.
Sometimes I'm not kind either. Sometimes I have awful thots.
Or derive satifaction from someone elses discomfiture, cuz i think they desrve it or something. Or I gossip, or I am selfish etc, etc.
We not perfect.
We are works in progress.
Slowly, slowly, getting better.
Sometimes we fall back, but we ever gaining.
We gonna be ok Alex.
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by muffled on October 3, 2006, at 23:39:52
In reply to Re: Opening up » littleone, posted by alexandra_k on October 3, 2006, at 5:43:42
> I'm sorry littleone. I guess... Opening up is about the scariest thing in the world for me :-(
***This is muffled, but I wanted to say that opening up is TERRIFYING. No doubt about it. I think that was why it was SO important that I trust my T. We went round and round and round, me testing her left and right.
But I think I can say now, that I trust her pretty much now.
And now talking to her isn't so terrifying, cuz I trust her not to ridicule me or puposely hurt me or be disgusted by me etc.
Well, mebbe it still totally freaks me, but now I can do it, where I couldn't before. Open up more I mean.>Couple of times when nurses were going on and on and on at me on the ward about causing my own distress and stuff. I felt like I started to go numb and shot out of my body from behind. I watched me lunge at the nurse and start hitting and yelling. Snapped back after getting jumped on by peoples. Curled up. Was mortified. Mortified. That happened a couple of times. I don't ever want that to happen again. It can't happen again. I'm serious. My emotions aren't safe.
***Thats is just a defense mechanism. Fight or flight. Those nurses went on at you, you couldn't get away, so you protected yourself. Stupid nurses got what they asked for and hopefully they learned something.
Then your final defense was freeze. And you curled up, cuz there was nothing left to do....
I remember asking my T NUMEROUS times if she was afraid of me. She would just calmly say 'should I be?', in a totally unafraid voice.
I fortunately don't think I'd ever jump my T. She knows I carry a knife most of the time.
I tend to lash out at inanimate objects mostly, or myself, or flight at all costs. I have been tackled. I have been put in restraints. I get scared sometimes, that mebbe I'd hurt my T, but somehow in reality I don't think I ever would.
I think if you are very honest with your T about how you feel bout your intense emotions and the fear you have of losing control, then the T can take some very basic protective measures. For BOTH of your guys comfort.
Like T sitting closer to the door, and/or panic button, if need be she could sit in a chair she can easily jump out from. Mebbe putting a table btwn. you. I dunno. It could be only temporary, so you could feel better bout being safe to express your emotions. And mebbe give T the opprtunity to help you learn to calm yourself at these times. And then once you've conquered that, mebbe you can deal with what sets you off in the first place etc. etc.
Yep, think that might be a good first step.
Easy to say when its not ME.
Anyhow, I NEVER woulda thot I'd have gotten as far as I have w/my T, but I have.
So if your T isn't willing to make a safe environment for you, or is too fearful, well, mebbe she isn't the T for you.....
But mebbe if you lay your cards on the table she will try?
Idunno.
But T needs to be safe before you can open up. Whatever needs to be done so you don't got to be afraid.
Take care,
Muffled(aka missknowitall)
Posted by alexandra_k on October 4, 2006, at 16:05:31
In reply to Re: Opening up » alexandra_k, posted by littleone on October 3, 2006, at 22:28:27
> > I... Used to feel protective towards my Father. Because my Mother was very emotionally intense. I could see him cringing from her and she would be f*cking ropable and I'd want to protect him. But I never did. But then fairs fair he never protected me neither lol. I'm scared of me because...
...I internalised her. I lived with her for 14 years and the last 7 of those years he wasn't around so she interacted with me. And so... I've internalised her way of talking. A voice in my head... Not me, can't be me. In my head, must be me. Sometimes I get caught up in it... Othertimes I'm horrified and mortified and ashamed of the voice / thoughts. It was her and now its a part of me. And if I'm not careful around people I might try and elicit it from others. So they can be bad instead of me.
Sigh.
I got to reading this book yesterday about attachment and projective identification and the like. It was a bit painful, but it is making more sense to me now. Have been having some internal conflict... I think I'm feeling a bit calmer now. A bit fragile. Internal conflict. Haven't felt it like this for a long time. Things moving inside... In an interesting though scary way. I don't know. I want to be a better person. I want to be a safe person. Safe to be around others. Locked myself away for a while because I didn't want to hurt people. Hurt me instead. I want to get better. I've been socialising more IRL. Social anxiety is hard. Especially around food. Every time... Every time it is important I make social blunders. Only... I'm not sure that they are blunders really. It is more about blundering on. Smiling and enjoying yourself. Not feeling mortified. It is okay. People don't give a sh*t so long as I'm having a good time. It is okay. Nobody even noticed. And if they did they don't care. They will have forgotten all about it by the end of the night. I don't have to replay it over and over and over or hurt myself later. It is okay. People are okay really. People can be great. I wish I was a better person to them.
> A good goal might be to learn to trust your T to be a healthy and well adjusted adult who has sufficient internal resources to handle experiences you might bring to your therapy. It could be very healing for you to experience your T coping with these "intense" experiences.
Yes. Little slow steps. Take a little risk and see how it goes. If it goes okay then take another little risk and see how that goes. That way one builds trust over time and as one builds trust the risks can get bigger.
The trouble is that I do take these little risks and... They don't seem to go okay. Why not? She is a nice lady trying to help. I really believe that. She IS a nice lady trying to help. But I do not feel... Like the little risks are paying off. Thats why... I feel disconnected.
> I guess I just get worried when I see you trying to leave her. Get worried that you're doing a runner like I always want to. Leaving because you're afraid to do the real work with her.
Maybe. But then I have worked okay with some people... And yeah sometimes I want to run from them too. But I want to be close to them sometimes too. With this lady... I don't know. Maybe I am running away. I don't know. She is going away in November for a month and she said she will try and see whether her supervisor can see me during that period. I will see if we get on any better. I do want to work. I'm just not sure that things are working out with her.
You are great you know. I saw your response further up the board... The thread about forgiveness and stuff. I wanted to reply just so you would know that I read your post but... You kind of said it all. I thought it was a great post. Nothing left to be said. I know that sounds strange... But sometimes posts are like that.
Thanks for talking with me. It means a lot.
How is your therapy going?
Posted by alexandra_k on October 4, 2006, at 16:12:41
In reply to Re: Opening up » alexandra_k, posted by muffled on October 3, 2006, at 23:39:52
> You proly will hurt me, and it will be ok, cuz I trust you. I will trust that we can work it out.
Yeah. Thank you.
> We not perfect.
We are works in progress.
Slowly, slowly, getting better.Yeah. It can be hard to see how far we have come sometimes...
And still... So far away.I'm fairly tired... Have a busy day ahead. Woke up at 5am. Most unlike me...
I'm so glad you have your t. Sounds like you guys get on great and you have been making a lot of progress with trust and stuff.
:-)
Thanks muffled.
Posted by littleone on October 4, 2006, at 21:37:16
In reply to Re: Opening up » littleone, posted by alexandra_k on October 4, 2006, at 16:05:31
> ...I internalised her.
:(
A little while ago I had to make a list of all the ways that my life had been impacted by the way my mother mothered. It was a very long and very negative list and it upset me a lot.
I figure your list would have the above line on it and that makes me real sad too. Even if you chose to protect yourself and stop being with her ... how do you stop being with *you*?
I bet that was a real painful realisation to make. I guess understanding is the first step to healing, but still ... very painful.
> I got to reading this book yesterday about attachment and projective identification and the like.
Do you know what the title/author is?
> It is more about blundering on. Smiling and enjoying yourself. Not feeling mortified.
I think the real secret is to have enough ego strength to truly not be bothered by what other people think of you. Obviously I'm a long way from getting even close to that one.
> The trouble is that I do take these little risks and... They don't seem to go okay. Why not? She is a nice lady trying to help. I really believe that. She IS a nice lady trying to help. But I do not feel... Like the little risks are paying off. Thats why... I feel disconnected.
Yeah, I can see that would leave you feeling disconnected. Sorry, but I get a bit confused. Are you talking each of these instances over with her when they happen? And are you saying how you felt when she did something? And how you wished she would have xx instead? Is she getting the opportunity to explain why she did what she did? (When I say "did", I really mean did, said, didn't do, didn't say, etc).
> You are great you know. I saw your response further up the board... The thread about forgiveness and stuff. I wanted to reply just so you would know that I read your post but... You kind of said it all. I thought it was a great post. Nothing left to be said. I know that sounds strange... But sometimes posts are like that.Thanks for saying that. I had thought I'd upset everyone.
> Thanks for talking with me. It means a lot.I'm glad you were okay with it. I had thought I was making things bad for you.
> How is your therapy going?I might post a new thread about it. I'll have to see how I feel. Sometimes I find babble real hard. I think that if I do post it, it'll quickly become very apparent as to why I was so concerned about you doing a runner.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 4, 2006, at 22:44:05
In reply to Re: Opening up » alexandra_k, posted by littleone on October 4, 2006, at 21:37:16
> I bet that was a real painful realisation to make.
Well... That part was kind of okay. Because I knew I thought 'bad' thoughts sometimes. It makes sense of why. Of where it comes from. Makes it understandable and stuff.
> > I got to reading this book yesterday about attachment and projective identification and the like.
>
> Do you know what the title/author is?"The American Psychiatric Publishing Textbook of Personality Disorders"
There is an article on attachment and mentalisation in BPD.The harder stuff was about... Projective identification. There was something about mirroring in attachment. How attachment figures mimic your emotions and... Can't remember exactly... But that is supposed to be good. But when there isn't this kind of mirroring... Then sometimes you attempt to elicit (aka manipulate) others into mirroring your internal state. That is why sometimes when one is distressed one tries to elicit distress from another. Mirroring. But when the internal state is 'bad' and one elicits that from another then one gets to say 'the badness isn't in me after all - it is in you'. It is a way of coping with the badness inside. By externalising it. Maybe that is why people with BPD are thought to have bad boundaries. Because the bad in the environment gets internalised... Then it comes back out into the environment again. Hard stuff to think about...
> I think the real secret is to have enough ego strength to truly not be bothered by what other people think of you. Obviously I'm a long way from getting even close to that one.
Yeah. Though... I guess we are supposed to have attachments at various levels and stuff. Caring about what other people think is part of being human, I reckon. Maybe it is about... Trusting that other people aren't as likely to think the worst as I am. And trusting that other people have stable enough representations of me so that they won't judge me too harshly. And coming to have a stable enough representation of myself so my self worth isn't dependent on my performance at every particular instant...
> Are you talking each of these instances over with her when they happen?
No. It is hard to explain... There just isn't an understanding connection. I mean... I can give you an example. I was telling her that I worry about being stupid. About people evaluating me as stupid. And she was like 'but you know you aren't stupid or you wouldn't be doing what you are doing'. And I was like 'but I'm worried about being the stupidest person doing what I'm doing'. And I am. Because the goal posts have shifted. And... She didn't understand. She doesn't understand. Lots of examples like that. And she tries to focus my attention on how few people do what I do but she doesn't understand that that isn't the relevant comparison class. I'm not worried about the former comparison class I'm worried about the latter. I'm worried about fitting into the latter. I'm worried about their evaluation of me because their evaluation of me determines whether I get a job or not, whether I get good references or not, whether I get publications or not, and so forth. Whether they invest in me or not. I mean they are kind of invested already but they do talk about 'taking gambles' on some students and about how 'sometimes that pays off and sometimes it doesn't' and I've surely seen what has happened to some people who they decided not to invest further in. They end up becoming public servants. Which is okay so far as that goes but I'm not doing this to become a public servant. And... She doesn't understand. I kind of think she doesn't *need* to understand. But her lack of understanding seems to prevent her validating my feelings. And I guess I do need that validation so I elaborate and talk it through. When people directly attempt to intervene on my thoughts, on the other hand, I don't feel safe sharing what is going on for me. Sometimes... The process of expressing... I guess it is hard for clinicians to see me in distress and not attempt to intervene. Just to let me... Experience it. It is later... Later that I can rationally process what happened and what that was about. Then I benefit. I don't know. I guess I just think that we aren't particularly well suited.
> Thanks for saying that. I had thought I'd upset everyone.
No.
> I'm glad you were okay with it. I had thought I was making things bad for you.No. You are helping.
> I might post a new thread about it. I'll have to see how I feel. Sometimes I find babble real hard. I think that if I do post it, it'll quickly become very apparent as to why I was so concerned about you doing a runner.
Ok. I'll check the boards later tonight. Right now... I better do some work.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2006, at 7:34:45
In reply to Re: Opening up » alexandra_k, posted by littleone on October 4, 2006, at 21:37:16
http://www.net.klte.hu/~keresofi/psyth/a-to-z-entries/projective_identification.html
Posted by Declan on October 5, 2006, at 10:00:38
In reply to Re: projective identification » littleone, posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2006, at 7:34:45
That was as good a description as I have read of it.
Very familiar.
Go forward in thread:
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