![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 69. Go back in thread:
Posted by Tamar on December 10, 2005, at 17:36:45
In reply to Re: Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another? » allisonross, posted by fallsfall on December 10, 2005, at 15:47:22
And I doubt I’ll pursue this much farther…
Falls, I’m picking up what you said only because it’s the latest of several posts saying similar things…
> There are others who are not as lucky, however, and I worry that they might read your posts and think that it is OK to be equally forward with their therapists.
See, what I worry is that people will read these threads and think that it *isn’t* OK to tell their therapists how they really feel.
> For some of them it WILL be OK, but not for all.
If you mean that some therapists will take advantage of some patients, I do not believe FOR ONE MOMENT that it happens as a result of a patient confessing to loving feelings, or any kind of flirtation. Abusive therapists MUST be held fully responsible for their behaviour. Any suggestion that a patient’s confession of love or attraction might lead to danger seems (to me) to be perilously close to saying she asked for it.
> I wonder if some of the other posters would feel more comfortable if you were more vocal about how this is what you need in your therapy, but that you recognize that this kind of behavior could be dangerous for other people who are in other situations.
If patients are in danger, it is NOT because they tell their therapists they love them, or behave in a flirtatious manner, or even make direct sexual approaches. It is because their therapists are abusing their trust.
I’m sorry to rant; I feel very strongly that the full responsibility for dangerous situations must rest with the therapist.
Aside from all that, I don’t seem to recall a single person asking Ally *why* she enjoys joking sexually about her therapist, or whether she believes it is helpful to flirt in therapy. I’ve heard many people say they feel uncomfortable reading it, and that’s fine; everyone has their own comfort zones. But I’m surprised that people haven’t expressed more interest in Ally’s point of view...
I could be wrong, and maybe I missed something. I haven’t read every single post on the board.
I really hope I haven’t offended anyone. I certainly haven’t intended to. I’m going to run away and hide now, but I will come back to apologise if necessary.
Tamar
Posted by Poet on December 10, 2005, at 17:51:30
In reply to Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another?, posted by allisonross on December 10, 2005, at 7:59:22
Hi Ally,
If everybody who posted had the same opinions, values and thoughts babble would not be interesting or supportive to me.
I go out of my way in posts to be civil because I constantly worry about doing everything wrong. I'm supportive when I can be, I don't get into posts where I can't be.
I put trigger on posts about childhood abuse because those memories hurt me even when I write about it in vague terms 30 plus years later. I don't think we could put trigger on everything that might trigger a negative reaction in someone else or every post would have to have it. Don't beat yourself up because your posts about your T didn't say trigger.
You seem to have come so far with working through all of the abuse you've suffered. That makes you a good person to have on babble to help those of us trying hard to get through it.
Your therapist and you have a different relationship than mine and I do, but that doesn't make either one right or wrong. I worry that you'll get hurt by your T, but much of that comes from me being unable to accept that anybody would like me and care about me. This includes my T and my husband. I'm cynical and think what does this person really want. Yeah, I know work on that in therapy, but what does T really want? To get paid, I owe for two months, but anyway..
You can't leave babble. You're still taking care of four year old inner me and I might want her back someday.
Poet
Posted by fallsfall on December 10, 2005, at 18:15:43
In reply to OK, here's my problem..., posted by Tamar on December 10, 2005, at 17:36:45
Tamar,
I certainly agree with you. Patients SHOULD tell their therapists how they are feeling. Absolutely.
And yes, if the boundaries slip, it *IS* the therapist's fault, not the patient's. And no, the patient never "asks for it".
But now that we are in agreement, where does that leave an individual patient? I would love to say that all therapists are trustworthy (and I do believe that almost all of them are). I would love to say that therapists will never take advantage of the trust that patients put in them. But I know that this isn't true all of the time. So how do we protect ourselves while being completely vulnerable and honest? This is the dilemma.
Ally's therapist has said that they can have whatever feelings they have, and that it is safe as long as they don't act on them. It is the therapist's job to make sure that neither acts on those feelings. But it *IS* the patient's job to watch out for herself, as well.
I guess that what I hope that Babble can do is to give patients enough perspective to be able to observe what is going on in therapy and know what the warning signs are. And to give them encouragement to protect themselves if the therapist is *NOT* doing his job - i.e. if the therapist starts acting instead of talking. But, that said, they can hurt us without touching us, can't they?
Please understand that I tell my therapist everything (well, even for me that isn't true). This is very complicated. I guess that I think that each of us need to be our own last defense. And the trick of therapy is to push that and trust a little more and narrow that last defense to the minimum that it can be. But I don't think you can ever let that last defense go. Some people have mile wide defenses, some have inch wide defenses. I guess it is important to figure out where you are on that spectrum, and try to narrow your defenses a little more.
So, Tamar, you bring up such an interesting point. How CAN we protect ourselves from unscrupulous therapists, and still be honest in therapy? I don't know the answer.
Posted by sleepygirl on December 10, 2005, at 18:16:14
In reply to Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another?, posted by allisonross on December 10, 2005, at 7:59:22
Hi,
I think your posts and point of view and experiences are quite valuable here. Not everyone will be comfortable with it, but that's OK. People will disagree...that's what they do I guess :-). It doesn't diminish your value, and it certainly doesn't mean you should not be heard. Yeah so sometimes the sex talk makes me less than comfortable...that's OK. I'd rather see the lively discussion. People react strongly to the expression of strong emotions, why should either be wrong when we are "civil" with one another? Reacting does not always equal feeling offended, and expressing strong or controversial feelings would likely be welcomed by many babblers, all of them? I don't know...but that's OK isn't it?
Posted by one woman cine on December 10, 2005, at 20:53:18
In reply to OK, here's my problem..., posted by Tamar on December 10, 2005, at 17:36:45
Hi, Tamar
I wrote you a post above, I hope you get time to read it.
I totally agree with you in that the therapist is 200% responsible, it is never the patients fault. The patient should be able to express whatever they need to express to their therapist (emphasis on this qualifier) & the therapist has to process it properly into something the patient can use.
& I did ask allisonross if I could ask her a question, about this - & I was never answered. i think I asked if I could even ask a question b/c i realized it was a delicate subject and didn't want to storm in like gangbusters. I wanted to know that question you posed; and maybe others. Oh well, no matter.
& I do think it's so important for everyone to express themselves. (I guess see the above post to you...maybe in the thread "gauging comfort levels") Dialogue is so important for many of us that have been silenced or forced into submission for whatever reason. Every voice is important.
Posted by allisonross on December 10, 2005, at 21:10:12
In reply to OK, here's my problem..., posted by Tamar on December 10, 2005, at 17:36:45
> And I doubt I’ll pursue this much farther…
LOL, I am ALREADY worn out!
>
> Falls, I’m picking up what you said only because it’s the latest of several posts saying similar things…
>
> > There are others who are not as lucky, however, and I worry that they might read your posts and think that it is OK to be equally forward with their therapists.Everyone is different and every t and client relationship is different. I would hope that people here in therapy are adult enough to not do or say what works for me.
>
> See, what I worry is that people will read these threads and think that it *isn’t* OK to tell their therapists how they really feel.I agree. As I said before, I NEED to be authentic, and my t says he LOVES that, and my bringing up the "hard" stuff (my feelings for him).It was an excruciating decision to tell him of my feelings
But as I told him; I would have felt sneaky or like I was hiding something if I did not. Told him there was an "elephant in the living room." It is always there, whether we speak of it, or not. He handled my feelings delicately and sensitively; always does.
>
> > For some of them it WILL be OK, but not for all.
>
> If you mean that some therapists will take advantage of some patients, I do not believe FOR ONE MOMENT that it happens as a result of a patient confessing to loving feelings, or any kind of flirtation. Abusive therapists MUST be held fully responsible for their behaviour. Any suggestion that a patient’s confession of love or attraction might lead to danger seems (to me) to be perilously close to saying she asked for it.Right. We are all responsible for our own actions. It doesn't matter what anyone says or does; our reaction(s) are our own responsibility.
>
> > I wonder if some of the other posters would feel more comfortable if you were more vocal about how this is what you need in your therapy, but that you recognize that this kind of behavior could be dangerous for other people who are in other situations.
>
> If patients are in danger, it is NOT because they tell their therapists they love them, or behave in a flirtatious manner, or even make direct sexual approaches. It is because their therapists are abusing their trust.Exactly.
>
> I’m sorry to rant; I feel very strongly that the full responsibility for dangerous situations must rest with the therapist.It is ALWAYS (the behavior) the thrapist's responsibility. They are supposed ot be in control. As clients (we)...as I told my t---can say, or behave any way we want to.
>
> Aside from all that, I don’t seem to recall a single person asking Ally *why* she enjoys joking sexually about her therapist, or whether she believes it is helpful to flirt in therapy.Thankyou, sweetie!
The answer is simple: With my therapist (and in life) I enjoy teasing and joking; am a free spirit in a buttoned down, locked down world, I know. My teasing is always subtle and gentle--never crude or offensive.I’ve heard many people say they feel uncomfortable reading it, and that’s fine; everyone has their own comfort zones. But I’m surprised that people haven’t expressed more interest in Ally’s point of view...
((Tamar))))thanks, again; validation at last!
>
> I could be wrong, and maybe I missed something. I haven’t read every single post on the board.
>
> I really hope I haven’t offended anyone. I certainly haven’t intended to. I’m going to run away and hide now, but I will come back to apologise if necessary.Oh, don't hide, dear Tamar; you are a sweetie, and valued (by everyone) I am sure. MOST certainly---by ME!
Hugs, Ally
>
> Tamar
>
>
Posted by one woman cine on December 10, 2005, at 21:13:35
In reply to Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another?, posted by allisonross on December 10, 2005, at 7:59:22
"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all", to me is a phrase oft told to me by my parents to make sure I was obedient, well-behaved, and always agreeable. Perfect, except it was making me submit to things that were harmful to me as a person. It took away the power of my voice & in my opinion, to all children.
i do think everyone has a right to express how they feel, everyone, no exceptions. I have spent far too long trying to be "nice" and going along with whatever anyone said, even if it made me uncomfortable. I went along (this was my issue way back when) and was essentially taking care of people emotionally at the expense of myself. I'm sure you can relate. So, just like you have to express yourself, I also must do this. Everyone has a right to their own internal truth. It's just healthy. & I think it's hard to not expect people to post about a provocative subject - and I think it's OK to do that.
As someone else said, not everyone is going to agree, that's just a part of life. Just as an aside, as an artist, plenty of people are critical of my work - for different reasons which aren't important, but if I crumpled every time someone said "ah, the direction could've been better, or oh it's too long - you need to edit" I wouldn't be here. & i think you are going to run into that (in my opinion) when you write your book. But I hope that doesn't stop you stating your own truth.
I have already said my "piece" when you said you were leaving before. I can't make anyone to do anything, I realized that long ago. So, I'm kind of disappointed to see you post this.
Posted by allisonross on December 10, 2005, at 21:18:03
In reply to A Rather Long Reply » allisonross, posted by Poet on December 10, 2005, at 17:51:30
Posted by allisonross on December 10, 2005, at 21:28:11
In reply to Re: Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another? » allisonross, posted by sleepygirl on December 10, 2005, at 18:16:14
> Hi,
Hi((sleepygirl)))!
> I think your posts and point of view and experiences are quite valuable here.
Bless you and thank you.
Not everyone will be comfortable with it, but that's OK. People will disagree...that's what they do I guess :-). It doesn't diminish your value, and it certainly doesn't mean you should not be heard. Yeah so sometimes the sex talk makes me less than comfortable...that's OK. I'd rather see the lively discussion.
Cool.
People react strongly to the expression of strong emotions, why should either be wrong when we are "civil" with one another?
I agree. I believe I have always been "civil." I have just stated my own opinions.
Reacting does not always equal feeling offended, and expressing strong or controversial feelings would likely be welcomed by many babblers, all of them? I don't know...but that's OK isn't it?
Yup! Thanks, again, sweetie
Your thoughts and words are most valued!Smiles, Ally
Posted by allisonross on December 10, 2005, at 21:34:24
In reply to Re: OK, here's my problem... » Tamar, posted by one woman cine on December 10, 2005, at 20:53:18
Hi! I did reply to your question about if I minded if you asked me a question. I replied to your whole message, but for some reason you did not get it. COmputer glitch, I guess, I said I would be happy to answer the (any) questions. So ask away (((Cine))).
I never mind being asked any questions. I may not want to respond, but I honor anyone who asks.
I am pretty much non-judgemental, open minded and willing to talk to anyone...about anything. It's that ole free-spirit. I have to sit on her a lot, LOL, LOL
Smiles, Ally
Posted by one woman cine on December 10, 2005, at 21:41:14
In reply to Re: To: (((OnewomanCine )))/Your question.., posted by allisonross on December 10, 2005, at 21:34:24
No PB didn't get the reply at all. How do feel about what I wrote, do you agree/disagree?
I guess I wanted to ask, how does it feel to joke around in the manner you do? I do too, with close friends - so it's not a criticism. But I guess, I'm sensing more than just joking, maybe I'm reading into this - but it seems to me to be way in which to gain control or power, that seems to be a central theme in the jokes - that's present - maybe not. maybe it's just your humor. I mean what's behind the jokes, what's really going on with you?
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 10, 2005, at 22:55:25
In reply to Re: Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another? » allisonross, posted by one woman cine on December 10, 2005, at 21:13:35
> "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all", to me is a phrase oft told to me by my parents to make sure I was obedient, well-behaved, and always agreeable. Perfect, except it was making me submit to things that were harmful to me as a person. It took away the power of my voice & in my opinion, to all children.
This really hit home with me.
The phrase if you can't say "anything nice"
is meaningless to me.
What's nice? Nice is subjective.
Women still wouldn't have the vote if we'd been NICE
Kindness, and goodness come in many forms.
I've learned other viewpoints, and ways of thinking that are precious because someone took the time to offer me an alternate way of looking at things, rather than just nodding their head and saying nothing.
To me that is a true kindness.I would much rather know clearly how someone feels if they are bothered by something I've said rather than have to read between the lines, of their response or sense that something is "off"
Two of my favourite babblers are people I had strong disagreement with. We talked it through, rather than submitting to a tepid congeniality in order to be 'nice'
And now I have two very close e-friends because of that exchange.I too have been abused, badly, as a child, and for a long time.
I don't see the connection between that, and people not being permitted to say how something I say makes them feel - that I can't hear it because it's too painful for me to be criticized as I've been abused. To me that's a method of gaining control, I would also feel as if I was maintaining my position as a victim.
That's not who I am, the person I am is the person I have become because of this.
The world is not going to stop for me if I announce my past. If I say that I have a need to express myself because of it, than I would not dare assume that the same need is not for everyone, That would infer that they themselves couldn't know pain, like mine.Everyone has a story, most of us have a story that would break your heart, and sometimes those most quiet are the ones in excruciating pain.
****So, just like you have to express yourself, I also must do this.That says it all really, I don't even know why I bothered with the rest.
Posted by one woman cine on December 10, 2005, at 23:20:51
In reply to Re: Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another? » one woman cine, posted by Gabbix2 on December 10, 2005, at 22:55:25
thanks so much for your words. I'm glad you found that this has resonated with someone else as well.
I think as woman (I'm assuming you are), society and other factors make sure we "take care" of people and don't rock the boat. Although I don't wholeheartedly agree
with Alice Miller, i do the like the "Drama of the gifted Child" because so much stuff is perpetrated on kids in the name of good and nice and goodness knows what else.I also value strong dissent, mainly because it forces an internal dialogue within myself, I'm forced to look at the uncomfortable and sit with it. & hopefully make friends at point. It is hard to have a discussion with someone, and I have tried this with various people in the course of my life, who strike me as kind of aggressive or provoking & then they roll over and play dead and accuse me not playing fair. I have a tendency to call colleagues, friends, and family on their stuff - just as they all call me on mine. For example, in conversations with my parents - they used to be so critical of me - as a person. But the slightest statement or reference from me to them brought them to tears. Not fair fighting. I had a friend who would do and say the most provocative things and when you said something , like "hey your poking me in the eye & it hurts", she'd act like I just killed her twin, like "why are you doing this to me". I'm not qualifying this here, in this situation, with respect to PB - but i understand totally where you are coming from.
& yes, we all have a story to tell. Hopefully no one's voice will be silenced if they choose to tell it.
Posted by gardenergirl on December 10, 2005, at 23:49:23
In reply to Re: Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another? » Gabbix2, posted by one woman cine on December 10, 2005, at 23:20:51
I'm reminded of that bit of fun and silliness from, oh, almost two years ago now? I suppose that someone reading about clients putting their T's up in a Babble pageant might wonder what goes on in the therapy of those of who participated. I'm feeling clumsy with words tonight, so this probably is not coming out like it is in my head.
At any rate, at least one of the threads I read about flirting with T's struck me as that same sort of fun and foolishness, which can be a good way to blow off steam or tension related to working hard in therapy. I'm not saying that recent posts are just like that pageant thread. But there's a similar feeling of silliness in the undertones, to me.
What's different to me, though, is that I don't know that anyone might have real and painful fantasies about their T being in a pageant with other T's. But some clients can and do have real and painful fantasies or wishes for love and/or an intimate relationship with their T's. So perhaps that might have an effect on how recent threads have affected some of us.
Just an association. Not sure if it will make sense to anyone else, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
gg
Posted by daisym on December 11, 2005, at 0:55:22
In reply to Anyone remember the Babble pageant?, posted by gardenergirl on December 10, 2005, at 23:49:23
yes -- and I didn't participate in that either. Because...because...it doesn't feel respectful to me. There I said it. Does that make me judgemental? I hope no one takes it that way. I appreciate that people can and do have fun with this stuff. REALLY. I just can't do it. I've never had anyone treat me so gently and so respectfully so I can't "play" with this relationship. I can complain about it, cry about it, share funny moments or talk about his dress, his office or make light of a few other things. I just can't, can't go there with my feelings about him. (Yes, totally, I know, a good girl not wanting to get in trouble but it is more than that.)
And one other thing...
Perhaps the danger isn't that the therapist will take advantage of the client. Perhaps the danger is that the client will be terminated or transferred. Or the therapist will not allow the feelings to be part of the therapy. Again, I'm in complete agreement that a client should be totally honest and bring up what is most on their mind. But how many times have we heard about therapist who just couldn't handle that much honesty? I guess it has been said, but context is so very important.
And I stand by what I said before. The writer should not have to worry about the readers, except with a trigger alert. Readers need to take care of themselves. This is a lesson I'm still learning -- I can hear Fallsfall in my head saying, "turn it off Daisy!" as I watch something that was really upsetting. Hey Falls, I turn it off now -- growth!
Thank you and good night.
Daisy
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 11, 2005, at 1:06:44
In reply to Anyone remember the Babble pageant?, posted by gardenergirl on December 10, 2005, at 23:49:23
Well Partly KK could get away with just about anything, the pageant to me was just so outrageous and cartoonish that it didn't give me the same feelings.. However from what I've seen now, after two more years (at the time I had no idea the depth of the client therapist relationship) I might feel differently if I saw it again, I don't know.
And as I recall, when KK mentioned anything that was more intimate and more real about her fantasies, she didn't get off that easily either.That post needed a trigger I miss KarenKay *sniff*
kidding about the trigger.
Posted by Voce on December 11, 2005, at 1:11:48
In reply to Re: Anyone remember the Babble pageant? » gardenergirl, posted by daisym on December 11, 2005, at 0:55:22
<I just can't do it. I've never had anyone treat me so gently and so respectfully so I can't "play" with this relationship. I can complain about it, cry about it, share funny moments or talk about his dress, his office or make light of a few other things. I just can't, can't go there with my feelings about him. (Yes, totally, I know, a good girl not wanting to get in trouble but it is more than that.)>
Thanks Daisy, for verbalizing what I couldn't. In my experience (and I'm guessing yours as well), my T respected my sexuality so much that to play like that in the context of our relationship would have been unthinkable. I wanted him desperately, yes, but when we worked through that desire, I found that I didn't want a sexual relationship with him; I wanted a perfect father.
If he had "egged me on" so to speak, I think it would have been glossing over the REAL issue. I can't judge Ally's T in this case because we don't know the CONTEXT, but I know that it wouldn't have worked for me.
I think also that it's impossible for a person to joke about an issue that is the most painful one for them. My feelings for him were painful. Still are. I was glad he only dealt in reality about it. To joke would have hurt me so much.
Posted by Voce on December 11, 2005, at 1:16:39
In reply to Re: Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another? » Voce, posted by allisonross on December 10, 2005, at 12:15:07
<He said that "when kids come in about abuse issues, but don't talk about it, they are STILL talking about it.">
Yup, that's a very true statement. When I went to therapy, even if I wasn't talking *about* something, it still showed in my tone of voice, eye contact (or lack therof) and posture.
<I appreciate the thought/concern that I may be...being hurt. To tell the truth, that has happened, but it is much too intricate and detailed to go into now.>
I echo what someone said about wanting to get to know you better. We know the facts about the divorce, but how are you doing now? And just because you love your T doesn't mean he's perfect, and we all understand that. I have come to this board and shared all the ugly stuff about my relationship with my T, as well as the good stuff. And I still love him. If you want to share stuff about your T that has hurt you, I would encourage you to do so. There are some amazing people on this board who can offer well thought-out persepectives. It always helps me so much to bounce things off other posters.
Posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 6:55:22
In reply to Re: To: (((OnewomanCine )))/Your question.., posted by one woman cine on December 10, 2005, at 21:41:14
> No PB didn't get the reply at all. How do feel about what I wrote, do you agree/disagree?
>
> I guess I wanted to ask, how does it feel to joke around in the manner you do?It feels wonderful and makes me happy. I enjoy making others laugh.
I do too, with close friends - so it's not a criticism. But I guess, I'm sensing more than just joking, maybe I'm reading into this - but it seems to me to be way in which to gain control or power, that seems to be a central theme in the jokes - that's present - maybe not.
I don't understand what you mean. I don't understand how joking can be a power thing. My humor is gentle and silly and fun. It certainly isn't a power thing. As you may have read, most comedians become (professional) comedians, as a way of staying out of pain.
maybe it's just your humor.
Yes it is. It is just MY humor.
I mean what's behind the jokes, what's really going on with you?
I don;t know what you mean by that. What's going on with me? Right now, I am just doing the best I can with coping with divorce. That is the only issue in my life.
I was BORN with this sense of humor. I am grateful for it; it has been my saving grace.
Ally
Posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 7:14:11
In reply to Re: Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another? » one woman cine, posted by Gabbix2 on December 10, 2005, at 22:55:25
> > "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all",
I wanted to respond; hope you don't mind, because I am the one that said that. Where I was coming from, wasn't what you are talking about (being obedient, submitting, etc., etc.)
I've been expressing my opinions ALL of my life (born standin up and talking back)..I'm the poster-child for saying what I think.
As a child, I fought back constantly agains the abuse. I asked my sister "why was I the scapegoat?" She said: "Because you would never shut up!"
I meant basically, as adults we can choose to say nothing if the "stuff" has nothing to do with us, or we will hurt another human being. I don't know if I am expressing this well, but I am trying.
to me is a phrase oft told to me by my parents to make sure I was obedient, well-behaved, and always agreeable. Perfect, except it was making me submit to things that were harmful to me as a person. It took away the power of my voice & in my opinion, to all children.
>
> This really hit home with me.
> The phrase if you can't say "anything nice"
> is meaningless to me.
> What's nice? Nice is subjective.
> Women still wouldn't have the vote if we'd been NICE
>
> Kindness, and goodness come in many forms.
> I've learned other viewpoints, and ways of thinking that are precious because someone took the time to offer me an alternate way of looking at things, rather than just nodding their head and saying nothing.I always want to hear what people have to say; I value authenticity.
> To me that is a true kindness.
>
> I would much rather know clearly how someone feels if they are bothered by something I've said rather than have to read between the lines, of their response or sense that something is "off"I cannot bear for anyone to be the slightest bit angry, upset at me. I know this comes from childhood, so I always want to clear the air; talk about it, resolve it, and move on.
>
> Two of my favourite babblers are people I had strong disagreement with. We talked it through, rather than submitting to a tepid congeniality in order to be 'nice'No one would ever say I am "tepid"...LOL...they would say I am passionate.
> And now I have two very close e-friends because of that exchange.
>
> I too have been abused, badly, as a child, and for a long time.I am sorry for that. I had the same experience.
> I don't see the connection between that, and people not being permitted to say how something I say makes them feel - that I can't hear it because it's too painful for me to be criticized as I've been abused.
It's only natural to not want to hear criticism. I lived with it as a child and then in 31 years of marriage. I've worked excruciatingly long and hard to get the toxic people out of my life.
None of my friends ever...criticize me. THey allow me....to be me. I feel "heard" with them, at that is what we all need..to be heard, and validated.
Because of abuse I (lots of abused people) are hypersensitive to criticism; it is only natural for that to happen.
I believe if we use "I" messages. --I felt like this....when you said that.... To me that's a method of gaining control, I would also feel as if I was maintaining my position as a victim.
In my whole life, I never thought of myself as a victim; I call myself an overcomer and wounded-healer.
>
> That's not who I am, the person I am is the person I have become because of this.
> The world is not going to stop for me if I announce my past. If I say that I have a need to express myself because of it, than I would not dare assume that the same need is not for everyone, That would infer that they themselves couldn't know pain, like mine.
>
> Everyone has a story, most of us have a story that would break your heart, and sometimes those most quiet are the ones in excruciating pain.
>
> ****So, just like you have to express yourself, I also must do this.
>
> That says it all really, I don't even know why I bothered with the rest.I hope if there is any animosity between us (that's the hypersensitivity talking here, LOL), that we will resolve it, and become friends. I would like that.
Smiles, Ally
>
>
Posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 7:40:28
In reply to Re: Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another? » Gabbix2, posted by one woman cine on December 10, 2005, at 23:20:51
Just a little aside; perhaps (if you wish), this will give you a little insight as to who I am (crazy person, LOL)
I've performed 3 acts of "restorative justice"---This is what you did...this is how it made me feel. My t gave me those words---they were the best gift I ever received. So empowering to someone abused for a lifetime
1. GOt a divorce...this was saying; I refuse to be abused any longer. Took me a loooong time but I got there.
2. I flew to another state alone, and confronted someone who did something horrific to me.
3. When my church kicked me out, I stood up in frnt of the whole congregation (they did this to me on my birthday; put my name up on a screen, followed by the words: Conduct Unbecoming A child of God)
I said: Wow, I didn't think this many people would show up to help me celebrate my birthday." They were grim as a heart attack, I was smiling and joking. I then read my little speech.
I then waited 2 years and wrote to every person in that church (more restorative justice); cost me 60 dollars in postage.
I then wrote to the pastor, requesting compensation for what I had to spend in therapy. My intention was to share the compensation with the 2 women, who because of his "counseling" skills, wanted to commit suicide...
.after a year I received a check; just a mere pathetic token, but I believe in standing up for my principles, no matter how scary.
Guess there is a #4:
My t did something that upset me, and I confronted him on it. He said: "You felt disrespected, etc.." I said yes, and explained it.
So, thatz me, in a nut (really..a nut!) shell!
Smiles, Ally
Posted by Dinah on December 11, 2005, at 9:02:24
In reply to Re: (((((((((HappyFlower)))))))))))))))))))))))))), posted by allisonross on December 10, 2005, at 12:17:53
> Hey, there! Perhaps I will decide to stay, to just see how many other tornadoes I can cause!
>
> As I tell people in my office, I have so little time, and so many more people to aggravate!
>
> Just jokin' everyone, just jokin here!!
>I understand that was a joke. But I wonder why you chose to make it. Since it's other people's feelings that you're talking about, and they're standing right here, so to speak.
> I meant basically, as adults we can choose to say nothing if the "stuff" has nothing to do with us, or we will hurt another human being. I don't know if I am expressing this well, but I am trying.
But on the other hand, people are saying this "stuff" *does* have something to do with them. And that it *is* hurting them. As adults, we can also choose to respect and validate *their* feelings.
I'm not sure that we can get anywhere without expressing understanding of the other person(s) feelings, and regret for any pain we may be inadvertantly causing others. And I mean that for everyone.
I remember once that I was told something I wrote needed a trigger warning. And while I didn't understand it myself, I appreciated that it was important to someone else. So, perhaps with a bit of "huh?" I tried to start putting triggers on it. Since it doesn't viscerally affect me, I might slip up from time to time, but with a reminder I will be more than willing to put a trigger on those posts.
Nobody's trying to hurt you. If anything, I think the people who brought this up are doing what you call "restorative justice". Didn't you say that your therapist did something, and you told him how you felt? How is that different than what anyone on this thread did? I thought pretty much everyone bent over backwards to explain that they were expressing how *they* felt rather than to criticize.
I understand that you feel criticized, and I hope my post didn't add to that feeling. I'm hoping we can all come to a mutual understanding and appreciation of each other.
Posted by Pfinstegg on December 11, 2005, at 9:15:11
In reply to Re: Restorative Justice/Never been nice or good!, posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 7:40:28
There is such a lot of feeling, intelligence and thoughtfulness in this thread. I'm not going to try to cover all of it, (I couldn't), but someone mentioned the threads about two years ago- I think it was called the "Perfect Therapists Club" I was one of the people who contributed to that. We all talked a lot about our therapists' looks, their clothing, what they said etc. I was newly in therapy at the time, and had a very intense loving transference towards him. It was coupled with complete respect for both him, and our therapeutic relationship. That part- the really important part- didn't get mentioned too much, I guess. I think I was so thrilled and bowled over by the possibilities for healing and growth in this wonderful new relationship that it felt safer and less overwhelming to have fun about things like argyle socks. I knew he would never take advantage of me, or hurt me. I thought the whole thread was a way of having fun about the little things- thus preserving in our hearts the essential wonder of the therapeutic relationship.
Apparently, some of the threads came across as belittling that relationship, or as indicating that boundary violations might occur. These were not on my mind, at all, and would not be possible with my analyst. I think I was trying to find a light-hearted way to say how wonderful it was.
With your post, Ally, I sensed some of the same things- your delight in the relationship- and it's healing possibilities. I will admit that i worried a little that the relationship was becoming sexualized (that's OK and normal), but was not being looked at carefully so that the two of you could work it through. That the enactment and sexualizing were becoming ends in themselves, rather than way stations towards growth and a full independent life for you. i don't know if this is true, of course- it's just what crossed my mind occasionally.
As others have said, it's extremely painful to fall in love with one's therapist, and then have to "work it through", with all the loss that that implies. You seem to want to leave the board rather than hear that that is what other posters think will lead to true healing for you. It would be a shame to leave for that reason. I think you will find that others (me!) will delight in hearing about your therapeutic relationship, as long as they also hear about your awareness of the necessity of maintaining good boundaries, You have hinted that your therapist may not have always maintained good boundaries, but have indicated that it's not a topic you want to talk about here. Maybe it would really help if you did.
Posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 9:37:30
In reply to what we have said about our therapists..., posted by Pfinstegg on December 11, 2005, at 9:15:11
> There is such a lot of feeling, intelligence and thoughtfulness in this thread.
Thankyou, sweetie! You have a lovely way with words...a rare thing.
I'm not going to try to cover all of it, (I couldn't), but someone mentioned the threads about two years ago- I think it was called the "Perfect Therapists Club" I was one of the people who contributed to that. We all talked a lot about our therapists' looks, their clothing, what they said etc.
That must have been fun!
I was newly in therapy at the time, and had a very intense loving transference towards him. It was coupled with complete respect for both him, and our therapeutic relationship. That part- the really important part- didn't get mentioned too much, I guess. I think I was so thrilled and bowled over by the possibilities for healing and growth in this wonderful new relationship that it felt safer and less overwhelming to have fun about things like argyle socks. I knew he would never take advantage of me, or hurt me. I thought the whole thread was a way of having fun about the little things- thus preserving in our hearts the essential wonder of the therapeutic relationship.
Beautifully said.
>
> Apparently, some of the threads came across as belittling that relationship,That confused me. I said nothing belittling. I mentioned a question my t asked me, and said my answer. Then said I was (hate repeating, sorry) going to get a green light bulb.
or as indicating that boundary violations might occur. These were not on my mind, at all, and would not be possible with my analyst. I think I was trying to find a light-hearted way to say how wonderful it was.
>
> With your post, Ally, I sensed some of the same things- your delight in the relationship- and it's healing possibilities. I will admit that i worried a little that the relationship was becoming sexualized (that's OK and normal), but was not being looked at carefully so that the two of you could work it through.Oh, I have been looking at it for a very long time.
That the enactment and sexualizing were becoming ends in themselves, rather than way stations towards growth and a full independent life for you.
I've always dealt with my own stuff by myself, and for the first time in my life; he came along at the precise moment I needed, and journeyed with me on the church debacle. As he said: "You did all of the work, I was journeying with you."
i don't know if this is true, of course- it's just what crossed my mind occasionally.
>
> As others have said, it's extremely painful to fall in love with one's therapist,Extremely.
and then have to "work it through", with all the loss that that implies. You seem to want to leave the board rather than hear that that is what other posters think will lead to true healing for you.
I don't really want to leave the board, I just want to keep myself safe from any more criticism. It would be like sticking your hand on a hot stove over and over, hoping it wouldn't hurt.
It would be a shame to leave for that reason. I think you will find that others (me!) will delight in hearing about your therapeutic relationship, as long as they also hear about your awareness of the necessity of maintaining good boundaries,
Oh, I am aware of that.
You have hinted that your therapist may not have always maintained good boundaries, but have indicated that it's not a topic you want to talk about here. Maybe it would really help if you did.
I will think about it. As I said I understand what is going on and that it is hurtful to me (I've written tons of poems about that pain). The bottom line is that I am not ready to leave. I know no one can help me with this.
Just as no one could help me in my decision to get a divorce. I had to do it myself.
Thank you again, for your sweetness, kindness and lovely words!
Smiling, Alice
Posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 9:49:12
In reply to Allisonross, posted by Dinah on December 11, 2005, at 9:02:24
> > Hey, there! Perhaps I will decide to stay, to just see how many other tornadoes I can cause!
> >
> > As I tell people in my office, I have so little time, and so many more people to aggravate!
> >
> > Just jokin' everyone, just jokin here!!
> >
>
> I understand that was a joke. But I wonder why you chose to make it.See, this is more criticism...I chose to make it because I thought it was amusing, and OBVIOUSLY a joke.
Since it's other people's feelings that you're talking about, and they're standing right here, so to speak.
Other person's feelings? About what?
>
> > I meant basically, as adults we can choose to say nothing if the "stuff" has nothing to do with us, or we will hurt another human being. I don't know if I am expressing this well, but I am trying.
>
> But on the other hand, people are saying this "stuff" *does* have something to do with them. And that it *is* hurting them. As adults, we can also choose to respect and validate *their* feelings.
>
> I'm not sure that we can get anywhere without expressing understanding of the other person(s) feelings, and regret for any pain we may be inadvertantly causing others. And I mean that for everyone.
>
> I remember once that I was told something I wrote needed a trigger warning. And while I didn't understand it myself, I appreciated that it was important to someone else. So, perhaps with a bit of "huh?" I tried to start putting triggers on it. Since it doesn't viscerally affect me, I might slip up from time to time, but with a reminder I will be more than willing to put a trigger on those posts.
>
> Nobody's trying to hurt you. If anything, I think the people who brought this up are doing what you call "restorative justice". Didn't you say that your therapist did something, and you told him how you felt? How is that different than what anyone on this thread did? I thought pretty much everyone bent over backwardsWith the exception of a few, they did.
to explain that they were expressing how *they* felt rather than to criticize.
We all construct our own versions of reality, my reality was that I felt criticized, and so I was....we cannot choose our feelings, but we can choose how we behave, because of them. In expressing how we feel, we can unintentionally hurt someone.
I am very aware of words and what they can do. I counsel women who have been verbally abused.
I find that in life, most people don't know how to express criticism with tact.
>
> I understand that you feel criticized, and I hope my post didn't add to that feeling.It did, but I can let it go. I don't hold grudges. I like to be a peacemaker.
I'm hoping we can all come to a mutual understanding and appreciation of each other.
I hope so too...as long as we keep talking, this is possible.
Sincerely, Ally
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