![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 44. Go back in thread:
Posted by Mistermindmasta on March 28, 2005, at 23:51:02
In reply to Re: Magnesium survey » Larry Hoover, posted by Sarah T. on March 27, 2005, at 5:48:36
> Hi Larry. When you say that you don't give a thought to the Calcium, do you mean that you don't take any Calcium supplements?
>
> Do you know what sort of psychotropic activity glycine has? I've done some searches on Taurine, but I'm not yet familiar with glycine's effects. I will look it up, but I'd be interested to hear your ideas about it as well. Also, what are the benefits of chelation? The label on the bottle of magnesium glycinate says, "Chelated Magnesium."Glycine is a co-agonist of the NMDA receptor that glutamate often binds to. As I recall, increasing activity at this receptor might promote an increase in certain cognitive functions. Glycine is being tested as an add-on to antipsychotic meds for schizophrenia.
Posted by Sarah T. on March 29, 2005, at 0:57:41
In reply to Re: Magnesium survey, posted by Mistermindmasta on March 28, 2005, at 23:51:02
> > > Glycine is a co-agonist of the NMDA receptor that glutamate often binds to. As I recall, increasing activity at this receptor might promote an increase in certain cognitive functions. Glycine is being tested as an add-on to antipsychotic meds for schizophrenia.
Hi. Thanks for the information. I have to say that I'm quite surprised that it would be an agonist. I thought I remembered reading some threads here on NMDA antagonists, and Magnesium was listed. So, would you say that magnesium glycinate is a combination of an NMDA agonist and antagonist? I want to use magnesium primarily for the relaxation it provides at night.
Posted by Mistermindmasta on March 29, 2005, at 11:46:12
In reply to Re: Magnesium survey » Mistermindmasta, posted by Sarah T. on March 29, 2005, at 0:57:41
> > > > Glycine is a co-agonist of the NMDA receptor that glutamate often binds to. As I recall, increasing activity at this receptor might promote an increase in certain cognitive functions. Glycine is being tested as an add-on to antipsychotic meds for schizophrenia.
>
> Hi. Thanks for the information. I have to say that I'm quite surprised that it would be an agonist. I thought I remembered reading some threads here on NMDA antagonists, and Magnesium was listed. So, would you say that magnesium glycinate is a combination of an NMDA agonist and antagonist? I want to use magnesium primarily for the relaxation it provides at night.
Yeah, I guess you could say that it's an agonist and antagonist. It is kind of strange. Glycine is necessary for calcium to enter the cell whereas the magnesium blockade removal is necessary for calcium to enter the cell as well. I actually just read that a glycine reptake inhibitor was being tested for the cognitive deficits of schizophrenia.And just like every other receptor, NMDA receptor agonism is not inherently harmful, despite the idea that it might increase cell death. For example, increasing magnesium intake might somehow selectively decrease excitotoxic damage from glutamate whereas increasing glycine might selectively increase certain cognitive functions. That would be ideal. But to be honest, I don't know enough about all of this to make this assessment, but I can say with more certainty that NMDA receptors have many functions and agonists may be as useful as antagonists, but in different ways.
If I were to make a judgement on what physiological effects taking glycine (agonist) and magnesium (antagonist) would have, I would say that the result is not a net agonist or antagonist action. Rather, it would just be a nonspecific improvement of NMDA receptor function. The cell will do what it should be doing more often.
Posted by Sarah T. on March 29, 2005, at 18:22:55
In reply to Re: Magnesium survey, posted by Mistermindmasta on March 29, 2005, at 11:46:12
Thanks very much for your help. So, would you conclude that Magesium glycinate would be better than Magnesium Citrate for sleep, or vice versa? I feel as if I don't need the cognitive benefits of glycine while I'm sleeping, but perhaps there's enough carryover the following day?
Posted by Sarah T. on March 29, 2005, at 18:57:07
In reply to Glycine NMDA agonismantagonism » Mistermindmasta, posted by Sarah T. on March 29, 2005, at 18:22:55
The subject of the above message was supposed to read "Glycine NMDA agonism and antagonism." I used the ampersand symbol (&), and it didn't show up in the subject line.
Posted by LOOPS on March 30, 2005, at 19:03:22
In reply to Re: Glycine NMDA agonismantagonism » Sarah T., posted by Sarah T. on March 29, 2005, at 18:57:07
I think it works better than any of the others I've tried - but I only use it for athletics. I've been quite impressed with the orotate family of minerals generally.
Anybody try this?
Loops
Posted by Sarah T. on March 31, 2005, at 1:54:05
In reply to I use magnesium orotate....for sport, posted by LOOPS on March 30, 2005, at 19:03:22
Hi Loops. Thank you. I'm not familiar with the orotate form. I will look it up.
Posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 9:19:45
In reply to Re: I use magnesium orotate....for sport » LOOPS, posted by Sarah T. on March 31, 2005, at 1:54:05
have a look at lifelinknet.com - they have a lot of articles pulling together recent research on various things (besides selling their own stuff). A very nice info site. Gives an anecdotal experience with using calcium orotate for appetite supression, plus an overall article on the family of orotates and hans neiper.
I personally am not taking lithium orotate now on a daily basis, because after being on the fish oil for a while now, I find it makes me feel too calm and sluggish, even with one tablet. Now isn't that odd?? Before it was the difference between heaven and hell for me regarding anxiety management.
Sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread guys - it is kinda relevant but not too much!
Loops
Posted by tealady on March 31, 2005, at 17:13:12
In reply to mag orotate, posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 9:19:45
> have a look at www.lifelinknet.com
- they have a lot of articles pulling together recent research on various things (besides selling their own stuff). A very nice info site.Just looking around. Looks great. Thanks.
Not sure why I go worse on fish oil. Maybe one day I'll figure it out.
I have my Dad on it though..just 2 caps a day and salmon a couple of times a week.Jan
Posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 18:34:38
In reply to Good site Thanks » LOOPS, posted by tealady on March 31, 2005, at 17:13:12
You could have had a point before about B5 being depleted by fish oil. I have no idea. What I do know is that I take a B complex regularly, so maybe that helps.
I recently read an article in the Sunday Times about treatment with high dose ethyl-epa on a 21 year old male with unresponsive depression. The brain scans after 6 months were impressive - his brain had literally grown in density. He was, however, also taking antidepressants (didn't say which ones). Anyway, the fish oil made him into a responder.
They say human intellect was originally built on the ingestion of EPA/DHA + cholesterol.
How long did you try the fish oil for? Not that I'm debating how it affected you badly - I am sure it did - but my initial experience with it was it made everything a whole lot 'weirder/worse/better' to start with. Then I just thought hell, I'll keep taking it and it has got better.
I'm not sure how much of a mood stabilizer it is - I know now it definitely stops me going into orbit or into the pit, but it doesn't sort out all my mental problems, at least not yet. All I want to do is to be able to react with some degree of normality to presented problems in my life.
ah the rambling. Have you given the EPO/borage oil a shot? The amount of times I've heard doctors going on about how some people respond better to the EPO/B6 thing rather than omega-3. I just take both, as I fit into both borderline PD and mild bipolar (not that I want to fit into any category really!).
Loops
Posted by tealady on March 31, 2005, at 19:18:08
In reply to fish oil (...again - sorry), posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 18:34:38
> You could have had a point before about B5 being depleted by fish oil. I have no idea. What I do know is that I take a B complex regularly, so maybe that helps.
> I recently read an article in the Sunday Times about treatment with high dose ethyl-epa on a 21 year old male with unresponsive depression. The brain scans after 6 months were impressive - his brain had literally grown in density. He was, however, also taking antidepressants (didn't say which ones). Anyway, the fish oil made him into a responder.
>
> They say human intellect was originally built on the ingestion of EPA/DHA + cholesterol.Ahh that explains my brain degradation...
Hi Loops:-)
I suspect its that fish oil maybe causes a rise in NO
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8041151&dopt=Abstract
and I suspect I have too much already of that(lots of posts on here back in Sept-Nov 2003 I suspect on here when I was having a lot of difficulty with it I suspect or something t do with it anyway)...whereas other people don't have enough...hence the popularity of Viagra :-)
http://www.wiley.com/legacy/college/boyer/0470003790/cutting_edge/viagra/viagra.htm
I'm sure there are better references out there, and It's all a bit beyond me..but that was where my suspicions about fish oil lie..similar symptoms, although not as profound.
NO I think binds like carbon monoxide(although not anywhere near the same extent) and cuts the binding of Oxygen to hemeglobin... this is all very vague and washed out in my brain..so I could be completely wrong, but I think that's what I remember.I'm one who always feels like there isn't enough oxygen..unless i",m out in the real fresh air relaxing.
NO is good stuff providing you don't have too much of it ..as with everything I guess.Maybe someone else who is interested in why fish oil works might be intersted in this line though..and can shoot me down if I'm on the wrong track please.
>
> How long did you try the fish oil for? Not that I'm debating how it affected you badly - I am sure it did - but my initial experience with it was it made everything a whole lot 'weirder/worse/better' to start with. Then I just thought hell, I'll keep taking it and it has got better.
>
over a year and with VitE..though only the alpha kind (with CoQ10 as well) and some EPO.> I'm not sure how much of a mood stabilizer it is - I know now it definitely stops me going into orbit or into the pit, but it doesn't sort out all my mental problems, at least not yet. All I want to do is to be able to react with some degree of normality to presented problems in my life.
>
> ah the rambling. Have you given the EPO/borage oil a shot? The amount of times I've heard doctors going on about how some people respond better to the EPO/B6 thing rather than omega-3. I just take both, as I fit into both borderline PD and mild bipolar (not that I want to fit into any category really!).
>Yes, I'm one who loves B6 (especially enteric P5P) and loves EPO..my 2 favourite supps for many years..ofh and zinc too. That should maybe indicate pyroluria? but I can't get tested for it..my urine is not pink or anything like that though.
tea
Posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 19:52:04
In reply to Re: fish oil , NO, EPO » LOOPS, posted by tealady on March 31, 2005, at 19:18:08
I love P-5-P and zinc as well. In fact I've been on zinc for a number of years, well before I got any sort of knowledge about nutrition and vitamins.
I was unwillingly sent to a Christian therapist by my darling well-intentioned Mother whilst suffering severely from bulimia in my teenage years. The best thing she ever did was give me a 'taste' zinc test, and immediately give me a big bottle of liquid zinc, which I took every day for the next two months. There was much improvement. I think I must have been extremely deficient (well, that's common with bulimics).
Alas, I did not continue the treatment, but remember vividly during college starting to take Centrum (which has 15mg zinc) and feeling better. I have taken zinc ever since, but in larger doses.
I don't take the P5P every day - I think I'm scared it's efficacy will wear off or some silly notion if I take it all the time. I save it for when I'm feeling anxious mixed-up horrid PMSy.
There is a possibility I have destroyed some of my absorption abilities in my stomach through years of purging - which would explain why I can't make P5P - or maybe. There's just no way of telling.
Interesting about the NO. Interestingly, one of the first things I noticed from taking the fish oil was a re-emergence of my long-dormant sex-drive, much to my husband's delight. I originally put this down to reintroducing saturated fat and animal products to my diet (which followed immediately after taking the fish oil - realizing a vegan diet was not obviously optimal for me), but now I think it is the fish oil.
Anwyay with the EPO, I have found taking borage oil has cleared up some psoriasis on my eyebrows. I think it's true about taking fish oil with GLA source to combat inflammation. I think this because long ago I bought a huge tub of EPO to combat really horrible eczema I had whilst in an even more horrid job. It didn't work. In fact the eczema got worse and I was taking a lot of EPO. I then bought fish oil, and unwittingly took this INSTEAD of the EPO, not knowing the theory. Again, no improvement. Pity, as I did notice mood improvement after the fish oil. If only I'd known to combine these two.
Loops
Posted by Sarah T. on March 31, 2005, at 23:11:48
In reply to mag orotate, posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 9:19:45
Hi LOOPS. Thank you for that link.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2005, at 11:23:55
In reply to Re: fish oil , NO, EPO » LOOPS, posted by tealady on March 31, 2005, at 19:18:08
> I suspect its that fish oil maybe causes a rise in NO
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8041151&dopt=Abstract
> and I suspect I have too much already of that(lots of posts on here back in Sept-Nov 2003 I suspect on here when I was having a lot of difficulty with it I suspect or something t do with it anyway)...whereas other people don't have enough...hence the popularity of Viagra :-)Ah, but this is macrophage NO production. These are white blood "killer" cells, and they use NO to destroy targetted cells/invaders. I don't see this as a generalized increase in NO synthesis. This was entirely a study of macrophage response to prostaglandins/activation.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2005, at 11:27:04
In reply to Re: fish oil , NO, EPO, posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 19:52:04
> Alas, I did not continue the treatment, but remember vividly during college starting to take Centrum (which has 15mg zinc) and feeling better. I have taken zinc ever since, but in larger doses.
>
> I don't take the P5P every day - I think I'm scared it's efficacy will wear off or some silly notion if I take it all the time. I save it for when I'm feeling anxious mixed-up horrid PMSy.You know what? I would call those rationalizations of gut feelings. I think your body sends messages, but they aren't in a rational form. We create rational form for them, so that we can consider them cognitively.
What I hear you say is, "I take these supplements according to need, and that need differs."
Lar
Posted by tealady on April 10, 2005, at 18:04:52
In reply to Re: fish oil , NO, EPO » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2005, at 11:23:55
> > I suspect its that fish oil maybe causes a rise in NO
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8041151&dopt=Abstract
> > and I suspect I have too much already of that(lots of posts on here back in Sept-Nov 2003 I suspect on here when I was having a lot of difficulty with it I suspect or something t do with it anyway)...whereas other people don't have enough...hence the popularity of Viagra :-)
>
> Ah, but this is macrophage NO production. These are white blood "killer" cells, and they use NO to destroy targetted cells/invaders. I don't see this as a generalized increase in NO synthesis. This was entirely a study of macrophage response to prostaglandins/activation.
>
> LarI've been seeing this fish oil promotion of NO in many differing places..just forget where
here's another
http://www.oilofpisces.com/cholesterol.html"Promotion of nitric oxide induced endothelial relaxation "
perhaps its just a side effect of the macrophages producing increased NO while phagocyting along the endothelial linings of the blood vessels ?Just thought that maybe if someone had too much NO already, increased amounts might up the oxidation and peroxynitrates (OK I don't fully understand this) damage too much causes, basically just fishing for a reason why some of us may feel worse of fish oil....maybe those of us who tend to have maybe a fair amount of inflammatory stuff going on..as in autommune disease etc. Just thinking along those lines
Jan
Posted by LOOPS on April 12, 2005, at 9:47:19
In reply to Re: fish oil , NO, EPO » LOOPS, posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2005, at 11:27:04
>
> You know what? I would call those rationalizations of gut feelings. I think your body sends messages, but they aren't in a rational form. We create rational form for them, so that we can consider them cognitively.
>
> What I hear you say is, "I take these supplements according to need, and that need differs."
>
It certainly does! I often wondered if some of my reactions are 'all in my head'; my husband thinks it's amazing I react so strongly to supplements - but he is too busy to notice what is going on in his body/brain. I have a lot of time spent to myself; when I get enough sleep and eat well, I can tell how different supplements are affecting me quite acutely. My life is a baseline that is very constant, and luckily, without too much exterior 'noise', or stress.It's taken me 2 years to get this tuned in - I'm sure a lot of people here are the same. I've gotten used to feeling the effects of different supplements and now know a lot about what is good and what ain't for my brain/body (at the moment).
I have just ditched my GLA for awhile, for instance, as I am pretty sure it was dragging my mood down (may go back to lower dose). I know because I started the fish oil long before the GLA, was doing fine, but then got a little anxious and added in the GLA (for eczema + anxiety) - fixed the anxiety but then kept taking it in probable too large doses and mood/motivation started declining (though not too much). Have dropped it completely and mood/motivation is stabilizing once more.
Loops
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 25, 2005, at 11:08:21
In reply to Re: fish oil , NO, EPO » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on April 10, 2005, at 18:04:52
> I've been seeing this fish oil promotion of NO in many differing places..just forget where
> here's another
> http://www.oilofpisces.com/cholesterol.html
>
> "Promotion of nitric oxide induced endothelial relaxation "
> perhaps its just a side effect of the macrophages producing increased NO while phagocyting along the endothelial linings of the blood vessels ?
>
> Just thought that maybe if someone had too much NO already, increased amounts might up the oxidation and peroxynitrates (OK I don't fully understand this) damage too much causes, basically just fishing for a reason why some of us may feel worse of fish oil....maybe those of us who tend to have maybe a fair amount of inflammatory stuff going on..as in autommune disease etc. Just thinking along those lines
>
> JanIt's free unregulated NO that's a problem. As a pressor-modulator (a controller of blood pressure/flow), NO is a good guy. If free NO is a problem, then you need to deal with peroxynitrite stress, as per Dr. Martin Pall.
http://molecular.biosciences.wsu.edu/faculty/pall.html
How are you doing, Jan? You're kind of scarce these days.
Lar
Posted by tealady on April 30, 2005, at 17:46:11
In reply to Re: fish oil , NO, EPO » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on April 25, 2005, at 11:08:21
> > "Promotion of nitric oxide induced endothelial relaxation "
> > perhaps its just a side effect of the macrophages producing increased NO while phagocyting along the endothelial linings of the blood vessels ?
> >
> > Just thought that maybe if someone had too much NO already, increased amounts might up the oxidation and peroxynitrates (OK I don't fully understand this) damage too much causes, basically just fishing for a reason why some of us may feel worse of fish oil....maybe those of us who tend to have maybe a fair amount of inflammatory stuff going on..as in autommune disease etc. Just thinking along those lines
> >
> > Jan
>
> It's free unregulated NO that's a problem. As a pressor-modulator (a controller of blood pressure/flow), NO is a good guy. If free NO is a problem, then you need to deal with peroxynitrite stress, as per Dr. Martin Pall.
>
>
I know NO is a good guy . I just thought maybe there is a point where you can have too much? Guess I don't see the diff between free NO and NO. (although I understand free and bound etc)
I remember there is INOs and ENOs(endothelial) too ?
At least I now iknow th worite NO in all caps, grin.http://molecular.biosciences.wsu.edu/faculty/pall.html
>
> How are you doing, Jan? You're kind of scarce these days.
>
> LarWell seeing as you asked and all...
I took a box of SAMe(Natrol SAMe Joint Formula with MSM and glucosamine) and felt good on them.
I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me , so I assume its was the SANe that was working.The anxiety went away and I felt calm and relaxed but not depressed..not great as in happy, still sad but not depressed.
It was only 20 tablets and the last 8 or so I gradually spaced ..like every 2nd day then every 3rd day. I took the 2nd last tablet last Monday..and saved one for emergencies..but I took it this morning as I got so depressed yesterday.It's way worse than before I took them, the anxiety started returning, but the depression outweighed it all. Before I took this last tablet I just wanted to give up.
I can't work it out. I would have thought SAMe levels should just build up in your body..can't see how it can lower anything?
Maybe it's just coincidence ?Jan
Posted by JLxx on May 4, 2005, at 8:39:05
In reply to RE: NO, SAMe » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on April 30, 2005, at 17:46:11
> > How are you doing, Jan? You're kind of scarce these days.
> >
> > Lar
>
> Well seeing as you asked and all...
>
> I took a box of SAMe(Natrol SAMe Joint Formula with MSM and glucosamine) and felt good on them.
> I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me , so I assume its was the SANe that was working.
>
> The anxiety went away and I felt calm and relaxed but not depressed..not great as in happy, still sad but not depressed.
> It was only 20 tablets and the last 8 or so I gradually spaced ..like every 2nd day then every 3rd day. I took the 2nd last tablet last Monday..and saved one for emergencies..but I took it this morning as I got so depressed yesterday.
>
> It's way worse than before I took them, the anxiety started returning, but the depression outweighed it all. Before I took this last tablet I just wanted to give up.
>
> I can't work it out. I would have thought SAMe levels should just build up in your body..can't see how it can lower anything?
> Maybe it's just coincidence ?
>
> JanHi Jan,
Sorry to hear you're not doing too well. Haven't been in the best of shape myself lately but at least I made it through another season of working at tax preparation. Some job is better than none, which is what I'm back to and feeling the effects of, but back to you...
It's a good clue to know you're helped by SAM-e, I should think. I was too but found the cost prohibitive. It also pooped out on me, it seemed though perhaps more would have been better.
As for your abrupt downswing, I have two "speculations". One is that you really really needed what SAM-e was contributing and instead of reaching the saturation point (that Larry has spoken about) you fell way short, so with all the receptors or processes whatever (I can't be scientific!) poised for what they needed, and then NOT getting it, perhaps the imbalance became greater as the body couldn't readjust to first the abrupt intervention and then the taking away of the intervention.
The other speculation is about homocysteine which has been linked to depression. You may recall a previous discussion we all had about methylation. Started here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/278139.html
Here, DSCH, says:
"I'm not Lar, but yes, SAMe is bad if you have high homocysteine levels because the supplemental SAMe, once it donates its methyl-group, becomes more homocysteine in your system. You need to address the homocysteine first (via TMG or methylcobalamin), only adding on SAMe if the problem lies in converting methionine to SAMe. Magnesium and things to boost the body's production of ATP (NADH?) would be worth considering first as these are what are needed to convert methionine to SAMe." http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/279278.html
There's another thread we were in that you might want to review as well: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20041108/msgs/415835.html
Hmm...after reading that, I think I am going to be more diligent about taking MSM again. And or TMG.
I've been having problems with motivation with my supplement regimen. Sometimes I just get sick of it all.
I'm wondering too if sometimes "less is more" considering the body regulations that strive for balance. When we intervene in a big way with certain things that are on certain pathways, then the body has to adjust to that, perhaps with a swing of some sort of metabolic pendulum in an opposite direction. So then we do something else to address that and on and on. Perhaps by lower doses of things over longer times we'd achieve greater equilibrium.
I know that I feel better when I take a handful of supplements, but after this winter when I was taking just kind of the basics and feeling no worse than last winter when I was frantic to try to correct things, I've been wondering about the right course. I can't find the right post now, but Larry said something thought provoking in an old post to someone about the brain "chasing the dragon" of a positive response, not just in reaction to drugs, but just in a good feeling. I wonder if that may be another reason to consider "less is more". Perhaps when we artifically and rather abruptly increase dopamine to counteract depression, we are also automatically triggering a desire for more (not in the same was as with cocaine or meth, of course).
I'm intrigued by the fact that the SAMe you took also included MSM but MSM alone previously didn't have a good effect. Larry says that MSM is not a methyl donor: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040718/msgs/377706.html but what does it do then? And does it do something in relation to SAMe that it doesn't do without it? In this previous thread, http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031218/msgs/292716.html, I quoted:
"The sulfur-containing amino acids (SAAs) are methionine, cysteine, cystine, homocysteine, homocystine, and taurine. ... Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM), a volatile component in the sulfur cycle, is another source of sulfur found in the human diet. Increases in serum sulfate may explain some of the therapeutic effects of MSM, DMSO, and glucosamine sulfate. Organic sulfur, as SAAs, can be used to increase synthesis of S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe), glutathione (GSH), taurine, and N-acetylcysteine (NAC). MSM may be effective for the treatment of allergy, pain syndromes, athletic injuries, and bladder disorders. Other sulfur compounds such as SAMe, dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO), taurine, glucosamine or chondroitin sulfate, and reduced glutathione may also have clinical applications in the treatment of a number of conditions such as depression, fibromyalgia, arthritis, interstitial cystitis, athletic injuries, congestive heart failure, diabetes, cancer, and AIDS."
You may recall a previous thread where DSCH said that it took magnesium for TMG to be "turned on" for him. What I've found taking TMG is that if I take too much (or if I don't actually need it?) that I get extremely irritable but more magnesium counteracts that. Dunno what the connection might be though.
I STILL don't understand methylation and how these different things affect it, such as the sulfur connection. But perhaps if you tell us of any previous experiments with the other related things such as B12, folate, TMG and how much calcium/magnesium, B6 and such you are currently taking, somebody can figure it out.
Hang in there.
JL
> > How are you doing, Jan? You're kind of scarce these days.
> >
> > Lar
>
> Well seeing as you asked and all...
>
> I took a box of SAMe(Natrol SAMe Joint Formula with MSM and glucosamine) and felt good on them.
> I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me , so I assume its was the SANe that was working.
>
> The anxiety went away and I felt calm and relaxed but not depressed..not great as in happy, still sad but not depressed.
> It was only 20 tablets and the last 8 or so I gradually spaced ..like every 2nd day then every 3rd day. I took the 2nd last tablet last Monday..and saved one for emergencies..but I took it this morning as I got so depressed yesterday.
>
> It's way worse than before I took them, the anxiety started returning, but the depression outweighed it all. Before I took this last tablet I just wanted to give up.
>
> I can't work it out. I would have thought SAMe levels should just build up in your body..can't see how it can lower anything?
> Maybe it's just coincidence ?
>
> Jan
Posted by JLxx on May 4, 2005, at 8:46:24
In reply to RE: NO, SAMe » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on April 30, 2005, at 17:46:11
You probably know who I am, but just in case....
I had to reregister from my previous posting name of JLx as I couldn't reset my password (never got the e-mail) and I rec'd no response when I e-mailed Dr. Bob. Very annoying.
JL
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 5, 2005, at 18:11:55
In reply to By the way...used to be JLx » tealady, posted by JLxx on May 4, 2005, at 8:46:24
> I rec'd no response when I e-mailed Dr. Bob. Very annoying.
Oops, sorry about that! Just sent a reply now...
Bob
Posted by KaraS on May 5, 2005, at 20:12:04
In reply to By the way...used to be JLx » tealady, posted by JLxx on May 4, 2005, at 8:46:24
Posted by tealady on May 7, 2005, at 18:08:01
In reply to RE: SAMe experiment, subsequent downswing » tealady, posted by JLxx on May 4, 2005, at 8:39:05
> > > How are you doing, Jan? You're kind of scarce these days.
> > >
> > > Lar
> >
> > Well seeing as you asked and all...
> >
> > I took a box of SAMe(Natrol SAMe Joint Formula with MSM and glucosamine) and felt good on them.
> > I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me , so I assume its was the SANe that was working.
> >
> > The anxiety went away and I felt calm and relaxed but not depressed..not great as in happy, still sad but not depressed.
> > It was only 20 tablets and the last 8 or so I gradually spaced ..like every 2nd day then every 3rd day. I took the 2nd last tablet last Monday..and saved one for emergencies..but I took it this morning as I got so depressed yesterday.
> >
> > It's way worse than before I took them, the anxiety started returning, but the depression outweighed it all. Before I took this last tablet I just wanted to give up.
> >
> > I can't work it out. I would have thought SAMe levels should just build up in your body..can't see how it can lower anything?
> > Maybe it's just coincidence ?
> >
> > Jan
> --------------------------------------> Hi Jan,
>
> Sorry to hear you're not doing too well. Haven't been in the best of shape myself lately but at least I made it through another season of working at tax preparation. Some job is better than none, which is what I'm back to and feeling the effects of, but back to you...
>
> It's a good clue to know you're helped by SAM-e, I should think. I was too but found the cost prohibitive. It also pooped out on me, it seemed though perhaps more would have been better.
>
> As for your abrupt downswing, I have two "speculations". One is that you really really needed what SAM-e was contributing and instead of reaching the saturation point (that Larry has spoken about) you fell way short, so with all the receptors or processes whatever (I can't be scientific!) poised for what they needed, and then NOT getting it, perhaps the imbalance became greater as the body couldn't readjust to first the abrupt intervention and then the taking away of the intervention.
>I was thinking along those lines as well
> The other speculation is about homocysteine which has been linked to depression. You may recall a previous discussion we all had about methylation. Started here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/278139.html
>
> Here, DSCH, says:
>
> "I'm not Lar, but yes, SAMe is bad if you have high homocysteine levels because the supplemental SAMe, once it donates its methyl-group, becomes more homocysteine in your system. You need to address the homocysteine first (via TMG or methylcobalamin), only adding on SAMe if the problem lies in converting methionine to SAMe. Magnesium and things to boost the body's production of ATP (NADH?) would be worth considering first as these are what are needed to convert methionine to SAMe." http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/279278.html
>I tried NADH http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/280564.html :-)
I stopped due to the depression but it did increase energy..strange.
You've got some posts there on SAMe and methyl donation..TMG etc and DHEA.
I am still taking DHEA, I found 20mg a day too much...testosterone way too high take 7.5mg compounded in a mulltiB.every day or two. Not sure if it does anything much at present. I'm hoping for some oestrogen conversion..but I think its mostly testosterone. It may help with anxiety..not sure.> There's another thread we were in that you might want to review as well: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20041108/msgs/415835.html
>
> Hmm...after reading that, I think I am going to be more diligent about taking MSM again. And or TMG.
>
Well TMG is in my box I got from the US beginning of this year and I'm slowly working thru..probably next to try..although if it does donate a lot of methyl I'm not sure if I will go bad..so I'll leave it for a bit I think...unless someone can tell me why I need it., and that it'll be different to methylcobalamin in the methyl bit.I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me. I also tried 3 months of TAURINE at 500mg first thing in morning and I didn't notice much. I think it did help a little with anxiety..not sure. I tried this after the MSM and Glucosamine. I don't think there was any overlap..or not much.
After the taurine I tired SAMe..I only had 1 packet of 20 (bought from US iherb)..I only order once a year usually as postage cost is about $60:-) I'd always suspected SAMe might help and I surprised at how well it worked. Better than any antiD I'd ever tried by orders of magnitude and fairly fast too.
So that, to me, indicates I'm hitting on where my problem might lie.
I think having previously just taken the MSM and Glucosamine and taurine I might have had enough methyl stuff in my body?
I go real bad on methylcobalamin. I tried this about 3 years ago..for about 18 mths.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/261999.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/262127.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/263744.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/263813.html
this thread :-) LOL
never could figure that one out. I occasionally take a sublingual methylcobamin (I get those from the Us too)..but it always has a negative effect,..increases tingling, very wiped out, and slight colouring of palms, soles of feet. Feels a bit like capillaries getting affected somehow. But I seem to go Ok on dibencozide sublingual (that's the other b12 without the methyl bit). It's in http://www.iherb.com/coen.html . This is also a favourite of mine. Its a sublingual with all the coenzymated forms of B1, B2, B3, B6, B12 as well as B5, folate etc. I think its a good cover in case there is something I'm missing somewhere. I take these every 3 days or so..trying to make it last. (anther from the US). Doesn't provide any methyl ..and doesn't affect me negatively either. I can't say I notice a big positive either...I just take for insurance I guess.
> I've been having problems with motivation with my supplement regimen. Sometimes I just get sick of it all.
>Yeah, I know what you mean :-)
> I'm wondering too if sometimes "less is more" considering the body regulations that strive for balance. When we intervene in a big way with certain things that are on certain pathways, then the body has to adjust to that, perhaps with a swing of some sort of metabolic pendulum in an opposite direction. So then we do something else to address that and on and on. Perhaps by lower doses of things over longer times we'd achieve greater equilibrium.
>I'm pretty sure magnesium works by overloading the system and therefore changing the equilibrium..driving out whatever was there before and replacing with magnesium. Its much the same idea as water softeners..which replace the calcium or magnesium with sodium in the water..which feels softer and washes clothes better but is bad for the heart(an unexplined huge increse in an area where they used water softening ). The calcium/mag ions in the water gets withdrawn from the water and sodium ions the filter replaces the calcium/mag. You can "recharge' the falter by reverse flushing with strong sodium chloride..putting heaps in to change the equilibrium, thus flushing out the calcium/mag and replacing by sodium again..so you can reuse it. The balance(equilibrium) changes by overloading.
That's how magnesium works too I think..when you feel better after taking large doses.
it seemed to work for me when I went too high in iron last year. Took heaps of magnesium for any effect..but I think it musta lowered the iron and replaced whatever with magnesium..not sure where..but it was a relief.
That's why I was once wondering why the heck you needed so much magnesium...not that I didn't believe you, just I wondered what your problem may have been. I think you thought too much calcium?> I know that I feel better when I take a handful of supplements, but after this winter when I was taking just kind of the basics and feeling no worse than last winter when I was frantic to try to correct things, I've been wondering about the right course. I can't find the right post now, but Larry said something thought provoking in an old post to someone about the brain "chasing the dragon" of a positive response, not just in reaction to drugs, but just in a good feeling. I wonder if that may be another reason to consider "less is more". Perhaps when we artificially and rather abruptly increase dopamine to counteract depression, we are also automatically triggering a desire for more (not in the same was as with cocaine or meth, of course).
>
> I'm intrigued by the fact that the SAMe you took also included MSM but MSM alone previously didn't have a good effect. Larry says that MSM is not a methyl donor: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040718/msgs/377706.html but what does it do then? And does it do something in relation to SAMe that it doesn't do without it? In this previous thread, http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031218/msgs/292716.html, I quoted:
>
> "The sulfur-containing amino acids (SAAs) are methionine, cysteine, cystine, homocysteine, homocystine, and taurine. ... Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM), a volatile component in the sulfur cycle, is another source of sulfur found in the human diet. Increases in serum sulfate may explain some of the therapeutic effects of MSM, DMSO, and glucosamine sulfate. Organic sulfur, as SAAs, can be used to increase synthesis of S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe), glutathione (GSH), taurine, and N-acetylcysteine (NAC). MSM may be effective for the treatment of allergy, pain syndromes, athletic injuries, and bladder disorders. Other sulfur compounds such as SAMe, dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO), taurine, glucosamine or chondroitin sulfate, and reduced glutathione may also have clinical applications in the treatment of a number of conditions such as depression, fibromyalgia, arthritis, interstitial cystitis, athletic injuries, congestive heart failure, diabetes, cancer, and AIDS."
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11896744&dopt=Abstract
>
> You may recall a previous thread where DSCH said that it took magnesium for TMG to be "turned on" for him. What I've found taking TMG is that if I take too much (or if I don't actually need it?) that I get extremely irritable but more magnesium counteracts that. Dunno what the connection might be though.
>
> I STILL don't understand methylation and how these different things affect it, such as the sulfur connection. But perhaps if you tell us of any previous experiments with the other related things such as B12, folate, TMG and how much calcium/magnesium, B6 and such you are currently taking, somebody can figure it out.
me either :-)) Like I said back in the pold posts..I still don't get this methylation stuff :-)
>
> Hang in there.Thanks JL
Jan
Posted by JLx on May 11, 2005, at 17:50:23
In reply to RE: SAMe experiment, subsequent downswing » JLxx, posted by tealady on May 7, 2005, at 18:08:01
> I am still taking DHEA, I found 20mg a day too much...testosterone way too high take 7.5mg compounded in a mulltiB.every day or two. Not sure if it does anything much at present. I'm hoping for some oestrogen conversion..but I think its mostly testosterone. It may help with anxiety..not sure.
I have 25 mg tablets that I split into quarters. They turn out uneven so I take anywhere from 4-8 mg at a time, and not every day, kind of hit or miss. What I notice is the libido effect more than anything now, especially if I've slacked off and then take some. I've been taking it at night for no real reason, but recently read that it normally peaks in the morning so that's the time to take it. I also read that fat helps absorption.
Do you recall previous discussion about boron and estrogen? Have you ever tried taking boron?
> Well TMG is in my box I got from the US beginning of this year and I'm slowly working thru..probably next to try..although if it does donate a lot of methyl I'm not sure if I will go bad..so I'll leave it for a bit I think...unless someone can tell me why I need it., and that it'll be different to methylcobalamin in the methyl bit.I sure don't know. I thought that people there were suggesting that TMG is equivalent to SAM-e, so I thought if SAM-e helped you then that may too. BUT, there was also something there that had me thinking that if I wanted to duplicate SAM-e I should take methionine AND TMG.
> I'd previously tried MSM and Glucosamine and Chondritin and it had no effect on me. I also tried 3 months of TAURINE at 500mg first thing in morning and I didn't notice much. I think it did help a little with anxiety..not sure. I tried this after the MSM and Glucosamine. I don't think there was any overlap..or not much.
From what I remember about Larry's posts on the subject, that is not much taurine.
> After the taurine I tired SAMe..I only had 1 packet of 20 (bought from US iherb)..I only order once a year usually as postage cost is about $60:-) I'd always suspected SAMe might help and I surprised at how well it worked. Better than any antiD I'd ever tried by orders of magnitude and fairly fast too.
That was me too. Too bad you have to pay so much postage. Is there somebody else in your area that might also be using supplements that you could pool orders with? Or maybe a shop could order wholesale some of these things. Or bodybuilders. Those guys use tons of products and must get them from somewhere.
> So that, to me, indicates I'm hitting on where my problem might lie.
> I think having previously just taken the MSM and Glucosamine and taurine I might have had enough methyl stuff in my body?I don't think MSM is actually a methyl donor. Neither are glucosamine and taurine, are they?Don't see them on Sahelian's page on methyl donors: http://www.mind-boosters.com/chapter_10.html
> I go real bad on methylcobalamin. I tried this about 3 years ago..for about 18 mths.
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/261999.html
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/262127.html
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/263744.html
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/263813.html
> this thread :-) LOL
> never could figure that one out. I occasionally take a sublingual methylcobamin (I get those from the Us too)..but it always has a negative effect,..increases tingling, very wiped out, and slight colouring of palms, soles of feet. Feels a bit like capillaries getting affected somehow. But I seem to go Ok on dibencozide sublingual (that's the other b12 without the methyl bit). It's in http://www.iherb.com/coen.html . This is also a favourite of mine. Its a sublingual with all the coenzymated forms of B1, B2, B3, B6, B12 as well as B5, folate etc. I think its a good cover in case there is something I'm missing somewhere. I take these every 3 days or so..trying to make it last. (anther from the US). Doesn't provide any methyl ..and doesn't affect me negatively either. I can't say I notice a big positive either...I just take for insurance I guess.That's weird that methylcobalamin would give you that reaction, but not SAM-e, suggesting it's not the methyl... or what?
> I'm pretty sure magnesium works by overloading the system and therefore changing the equilibrium..driving out whatever was there before and replacing with magnesium. Its much the same idea as water softeners..which replace the calcium or magnesium with sodium in the water..which feels softer and washes clothes better but is bad for the heart(an unexplined huge increse in an area where they used water softening ). The calcium/mag ions in the water gets withdrawn from the water and sodium ions the filter replaces the calcium/mag. You can "recharge' the falter by reverse flushing with strong sodium chloride..putting heaps in to change the equilibrium, thus flushing out the calcium/mag and replacing by sodium again..so you can reuse it. The balance(equilibrium) changes by overloading.
> That's how magnesium works too I think..when you feel better after taking large doses.
> it seemed to work for me when I went too high in iron last year. Took heaps of magnesium for any effect..but I think it musta lowered the iron and replaced whatever with magnesium..not sure where..but it was a relief.I was reading Dr. Slagle's comments on magnesium again recently and noticed that she says,
"Excess sugar, caffeine, carbohydrates, low dietary protein, prolonged fasting, general malnutrition, chronic diarrhea, vomiting, excess zinc, vitamin D & calcium contribute to Mg deficiency. Aluminum, fluoride, & phosphate interfere with absorption." http://www.thewayup.com/newsletters/081501.htm
I've been routinely taking 525 mg magnesium at night, and sometimes just lately another 125 mg during the day because I've been getting cramps in my feet and legs. Which seemed odd all of a sudden as I've been ok on this dose of mg for months. I took just a little calcium (only about 40 mg) with it a couple nights and am sure I was grinding my teeth those nights because I woke up with a particular kind of headache. I haven't been this calcium sensitive lately so that was surprising. The relatively small amount of TMG I took yesterday that make me irritable seemed odd too. It all now sounds like I need more magnesium. Perhaps it is the extra Vit D. I'm going to try taking more mg.
> That's why I was once wondering why the heck you needed so much magnesium...not that I didn't believe you, just I wondered what your problem may have been. I think you thought too much calcium?
Yes, definitely. I seemed to need less the longer I took it.
> >
In this previous thread, http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031218/msgs/292716.html, I quoted:
> >
> > "The sulfur-containing amino acids (SAAs) are methionine, cysteine, cystine, homocysteine, homocystine, and taurine. ... Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM), a volatile component in the sulfur cycle, is another source of sulfur found in the human diet. Increases in serum sulfate may explain some of the therapeutic effects of MSM, DMSO, and glucosamine sulfate. Organic sulfur, as SAAs, can be used to increase synthesis of S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe), glutathione (GSH), taurine, and N-acetylcysteine (NAC). MSM may be effective for the treatment of allergy, pain syndromes, athletic injuries, and bladder disorders. Other sulfur compounds such as SAMe, dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO), taurine, glucosamine or chondroitin sulfate, and reduced glutathione may also have clinical applications in the treatment of a number of conditions such as depression, fibromyalgia, arthritis, interstitial cystitis, athletic injuries, congestive heart failure, diabetes, cancer, and AIDS."
> >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11896744&dopt=Abstract> >
> > I STILL don't understand methylation and how these different things affect it, such as the sulfur connection. But perhaps if you tell us of any previous experiments with the other related things such as B12, folate, TMG and how much calcium/magnesium, B6 and such you are currently taking, somebody can figure it out.
>
>
> me either :-)) Like I said back in the pold posts..I still don't get this methylation stuff :-)It sounds like taurine, glucosamine and MSM are sulfur which can be used to increase synthesis of SAM-e, which is not the same thing even as a precursor. When you took SAM-e then, it was a unique experience. I think I would definitely try the TMG.
JL
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