![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 23 to 47 of 62. Go back in thread:
Posted by floatingbridge on February 25, 2011, at 20:25:43
In reply to Ferber, posted by emmanuel98 on February 25, 2011, at 19:23:49
I could kiss you :). Besides that, somehow I did not imagine you are a mom. I don't know why....
Our son just started wanting to sleep in his own bed. He's newly seven. He slips into 'our' bed every night. I'm glad both to have the bed to myself if hubby works late and cuddle with him, too.
You're not in the States, are you? (Our 'euro-rep', eurorep is on hiatus.) Many cultures have a family bed. In the States, it's considered to be somehow harmful. A NYT article last year or prior found a similar if not higher number of unreported co-sleeping.
Then there is the issue of breastfeeding past a year....
Posted by Phillipa on February 25, 2011, at 20:59:02
In reply to on the borderline » Phillipa, posted by floatingbridge on February 25, 2011, at 19:11:06
FB sounds like that boss was more a psychopath than borderline but just an opinion. The Borderlines I cared for split staff and some did try to cause trouble but some were extremly complaint. I must do my searching and see difference between c ptsd and borderline. Just a question has bipolar been brought up before? Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2011, at 21:06:28
In reply to Ferber, posted by emmanuel98 on February 25, 2011, at 19:23:49
My son liked to be held when he was an infant. All the time. My mother could get him to sleep and lift him into his crib without waking him. No one else could manage that on a regular basis. Snugglies were a lifesaver for us.
He often slept with us, or one of us slept on the rocker in his room, until he was maybe two years old. We got him a racing car bed, and with that enticement he willingly slept in his own bed. We let him lead us in setting up a bedtime ritual that made him feel safe and secure in sleeping on his room, although one of us usually read to him and sat with him till he fell asleep for a while after the transition.
I could certainly understand his desire to feel safe and held.
Posted by morgan miller on February 26, 2011, at 1:34:45
In reply to Re: Ferber » emmanuel98, posted by floatingbridge on February 25, 2011, at 20:25:43
If we look at things from an evolutionary perspective, it might make sense that it is fairly norma and healthy for a young child to sleep with the parents often. I'd have to do a little research on this.
I think the pressing issue here when it comes to mothers suffering from mental illness is the potential for and likelihood of neglect. When parents neglect their children, it is usually done so in ways that the parents are completely unaware of or in denial of. There are many types of neglect, all of which have great potential for damage.
Posted by Dinah on February 26, 2011, at 8:07:21
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by morgan miller on February 26, 2011, at 1:34:45
Neglect can cause harm, certainly. But not all misattunement is neglect. Neglect is a loaded term, often implying carelessness or indifference. That's an implication depressed mothers aren't guilty of just because they're depressed.
My point is that even the "healthiest" of parents, and even under the best medical advice, can do things that could conceivably cause psychological damage to a vulnerable infant. And I'm assuming that both by genetics and the soup of placental stress hormones, a depressed mother is more likely to give birth to a child likely to be particularly vulnerable.
Parents let children down. Even babies. The myth of the all nurturing mother is a myth. "Healthy" mothers can and do bring their infants to day care where there is a less than one to one ratio, usually through necessity not indifference. "Healthy" mothers might drink or smoke or take drugs, and there is both physical and emotional repercussions for the child. "Healthy" mothers are separated from their infants for reasons beyond their control, just as depressed mothers may be separated in some ways from their infants, for reasons beyond their control. "Healthy" mothers leave babies feeling the pain of loss and suffering the fear of abandonment alone to cry until they throw up and give up the hope of having their cries bring the succor of a parent's arms and cease to cry for attention and become more "agreeable". To the parents they're more agreeable of course. And they do this on the advice of doctors, who seem to be working under the assumption that a baby crying in loneliness and fear and for consolation is doing so as a manipulation. And frankly, some "healthy" mothers will look at their babies without joy because babies are not always a joy on a minute by minute basis. Of course they are as a whole. But a colicky baby or a fretful baby or even a perfectly normal baby does not elicit feelings of joy all the time from any but the most saintly of mothers. A particularly fretful baby may elicit joy on an infrequent basis, and may even elicit a conditioned negative response. Heck, the reward centers may be no more than a biological urge to let down milk, not a call to joyous interaction. Healthy parents can and do cause harm to their babies with no more intent to harm than depressed mothers.
Obviously mothers who are suffering from post partum psychosis or who are so depressed that they are unable to care for their child are in need of assistance, and their child should be properly cared for. But for milder forms of depression, I'd pick a depressed mother over a selfish, self centered, or immature one. In fact, I suspect one evolutionary advantage to depression in mothers may be to make them more aware of their potential deficiencies as parents, and more anxious to provide proper care. Even if it's without a spark of joy. Given the historically young age of parents, that may be even more of a possibility.
And again frankly, where the h*ll are the fathers in these studies. Only mothers can give the proper nurturing to infants?
What is this about for you? You've brought it up more than once. Is this about deciding whether or not to have children for yourself? Is it reflecting on the harm you may have done to your own child? Or is it about explaining your own emotional distress in terms of what others did to you, instead of in terms of what biological vulnerabilities you have? Even though those biological vulnerabilities were completely beyond your control and the result of faulty genes or prenatal experience? Does it give more hope to assume that the reason is post birth experiences, because those can be corrected through therapy? While more intrinsic causes imply that one is flawed forever? Everyone is flawed forever in one way or another. It doesn't mean they are doomed.
Have you read Daniel Goleman's work on Social Intelligence. I think that's the one. In which he says that research is showing that a mother's interactions with a baby are in part influenced by that baby's own personality? That babies aren't small blank slates ready to be formed by the world, but come into the world with a fair amount of personality already made?
If you try hard enough, you can find reasons why an adult can be the way they are. Every child, if they go back to infancy and speculation on what their moments of attunement were like with their parents, will find reason enough for any psychological distress. If that's important to you, then that's fine. I could do it too, if I liked. I *wish* that my mother was merely a dedicated and conscientious mother who was depressed herself when I was an infant. If that's all my son has to complain of when he's older, I consider myself to have given him a far healthier childhood than I had myself. Which is the evolutionary ideal I think. Will it lead to a better outcome? That depends on him and his own inborn characteristics as much as it does on me. Mind you, I doubt that's all he'll have to complain about when he's older. "She's too smothering." "She's too distant." "She's too odd." "She's overly concerned with convention." "She never trusted me." "She always trusted me." And if I was a perfect mother - which I'm not "It was too much pressure to be so perfect." Ideal mothering for one child doesn't suit another. And any child, in a therapist's office, can find some reason why their mother is to blame for them being there. If that child has to look back to their infancy and the way their mother looked at them without a spark of joy, their mother has reason for pride, not shame.
I doubt I'll be that lucky. I continue to be imperfect to this day.
Maybe instead of saying that mentally ill parents are harmful to their children, it could be generalized to "imperfect parenting is harmful to children." And since perfection is sadly lacking in this perfect world, the unnecessary modifier could be removed leaving "parenting is harmful to children." How harmful it is seen to be may be more up to the child than the parent.
Posted by Phillipa on February 26, 2011, at 11:33:38
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by morgan miller on February 26, 2011, at 1:34:45
Never knew there was a name for it but I guess used the Ferber method for first two children and it worked like a charm at two weeks both slept through the night from ll pm til 9am. And today they are very successful adults both doing extremly well. Third child had problems and couldn't self sooth had to be held but by l8 months healthy and sleeping fine. Just my personal story. Phillipa
Posted by floatingbridge on February 26, 2011, at 14:19:47
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by morgan miller on February 26, 2011, at 1:34:45
> I think the pressing issue here when it comes to mothers suffering from mental illness is the potential for and likelihood of neglect. When parents neglect their children, it is usually done so in ways that the parents are completely unaware of or in denial of.Yes. Unaware I would put in one category, and denial another. Relatively healthy people use denial. That's a key element in some of the finest literature and drama (thinking here of Oedipus Tyrannous aka Rex).
I think the study you posted was interesting and important. I'm pleased by your use of 'parents', because there is incredible focus on the maternal bond. Since the majority of PB posters are from the US or other Western modeled cultures, that our social reality.
Sometimes I try and imagine various tribal systems. Some do not place the maternal bond above others in regards to a child's (and future 'citizen's) healthy adjustment to adult tribal life.
So I offer that the importance of maternal bond may not be hard-wired,
as long as a child's needs are met by (emphasis here) consistent caregivers so that reliable bonds form.(I think that is why many children, despite studies suggesting otherwise, are really fine in some daycare situations. Like my psychiatrist friend's child, who was in daycare from 8-5. Fortunately, my friend was able to find and afford a daycare with practically zero turnover.)
But you and I are born and bred US citizens. So any maladjustments are to this culture and are created, in part, by the lens of our culture which (imo) is male centered and the female can be, at times reduce to a symbol and fetishized. You know, join Uncle Sam and fight for
apple pie. Actually, the male is reduced to a symbl, too. Maybe a symbol in which more power is invested. Some of
my male friends confess to feeling the
variuos stings of cultural cues that question their manliness.w guys who feel less. (Know that is something to help my
son navigate. Luckily Dad is pretty comfortable with those issues.) An interesting question here would be what is our culture's correlative of not being fatherly enough.>
>There are many types of neglect, all of
which have great potential for damage.Yes, so true. As an anxious mom, the world seems riddled with pitfalls and dangers, some unintentionally put in place by myself.
Lunchtime. Enter my son shooting his playmobil cannon as a hand gun (since
we won't buy him guns--sticks, Lego, and now playmobil are fine. Now that's something that could send him to the couch as an adult in this country, lol.No time to proof-read.
Signed,
fb, mother in the wild, wild West
Posted by Dinah on February 26, 2011, at 19:06:23
In reply to Re: Ferber » morgan miller, posted by floatingbridge on February 26, 2011, at 14:19:47
I want to be clear that I didn't mean to be critical of daycare or even Ferber. The kids of the parent I know who recommended that to me seem perfectly fine.
I was just pointing out that these things happen whether or not a mother is depressed. And that any harm that can come from a lack of deep joy in a mother's eyes can come from any number of other causes that are perfectly normal to childhood.
I guess I just don't see the point of pointing out that something beyond a parent's control can be harmful. Sure. Any number of things beyond a parent's control can be harmful. I think it's more helpful to point out the importance of behaviors that are healthy for a child, and to reduce behaviors that may cause psychic harm. From the point of view of future children, that seems a more sensible approach.
From the point of view of a current adult child, is it necessary to assign blame for something unintentional? Different people have different needs. It can be needs that weren't met in childhood. It can be that needs were met but the ability for a child to meet those needs him/herself wasn't taught. For whatever reason, at this point it is perfectly reasonable to seek to fill those needs, or to seek to learn how to fill them ourselves.
I'm all for holding parents accountable for abuse or neglect. But I'm not sure I am in favor of holding well intentioned parents doing the best they can do to blame for things like not giving eye contact or not having joy or even for leaving them crying when they needed comfort because their doctor advised that that was what good parents do. What is the point? Doesn't that just cause more problems by holding parents to perfectionistic standards, and by extension holding those same standards to ourselves?
It's not ideal to be depressed and a parent. It's not ideal to be colicky and a baby. It's not ideal to have a physical infirmity that limits mobility as a parent. Long hours in daycare is not ideal. A lot more things are not ideal than are.
As long as we can identify our current needs and map out a strategy to have our needs met, does it really matter?
I'm not talking about gross neglect or abuse. I'm talking about not having joy in the eyes or having reward centers light up. I'm talking about responsible childcare or the ferber method.
Posted by Dinah on February 26, 2011, at 19:21:50
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by Phillipa on February 26, 2011, at 11:33:38
I suspect that human infants were designed to be resilient. Conditions of life were hardly such over the period of time humans were alive to allow for perfect mother/child madonna bonding moments. It's only very recently we've had to worry about things like eye contact, when our ancestors were likely more worried about being able to feed their kids, or getting them out of town as the plague hit, or carting them along as they pursued game.
I think you've mentioned that one of your children was fussy as an infant. That must have been difficult. My son wasn't really. He just liked to be held, and when he was held he was perfectly agreeable. I have a deep understanding of what it feels like to call out and receive no comfort. I didn't mind his wanting to be held. It didn't seem unreasonable to me. Don't we all want to be held? I'm glad we were available to hold him. When he was ready to be alone, he managed it just fine.
Posted by Dinah on February 26, 2011, at 19:34:13
In reply to Re: Ferber » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on February 26, 2011, at 19:21:50
But I do apologize if I got a bit heated.
I know no one intended offense, and I hope everyone realizes that I didn't either.
I do think it's important to do studies on what *actions* are good or bad for babies, long term. And on the interpersonal dynamics between parent and child. Otherwise we'd still be thinking we need to liberally apply the rod. The best advice for parenting changes over time. It's best that that change have good science behind them.
My husband used to laugh that he could see me mentally flipping through the parenting books when I was confronted with a challenge. That was likely true. I wish I could have been a perfect parent for my son. I ended up being not very spontaneous. :)
So carry on. I'm bowing out. I'm advocating acceptance of what is in a not very accepting way. I'm aware of the irony.
No offense at all intended, Morgan Miller.
Posted by Phillipa on February 26, 2011, at 20:13:57
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by Dinah on February 26, 2011, at 19:34:13
Dinah correct third was in and out of hospital cried 24 hours a day despite being held whole time. And in the pediatrician's one time I think the doc didn't believe she cried and cried as he said put her on the table let her cry. Did and she popped a hernia at two months and had to undergo surgery. Sent to Yale New Haven peds ICU for two weeks and their diagnosis hyperkinetic. Legs never stopped moving, had to be changed second she urinated, isolette had to be covered to sensitive to light. Was told not one person could care for her and the nurses failed to put any weight on her. I got her home and managed to get three lbs on her in a month a miracle in itself. My other two were not born with this disposition or whatever. Roughest time of my life. Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on February 26, 2011, at 20:26:39
In reply to Re: Ferber » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on February 26, 2011, at 20:13:57
I imagine it was. Getting enough sleep is tough enough with an average baby. You and your family must have been sleep deprived *and* on sensory overload.
But those times pass, and the better parts of parenthood can take over. :)
Posted by Phillipa on February 26, 2011, at 21:22:38
In reply to Re: Ferber » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on February 26, 2011, at 20:26:39
Yes each time she entered the hospital home to sleep. The worst was when we went up later to visit she was sleeping peacefully. They never told us they were drugging her to sleep. So went through such guilt feeling I was a horrible Mother. l8 months it was all over and life back to normal. Phillipa
Posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 0:40:05
In reply to Re: Ferber » morgan miller, posted by Dinah on February 26, 2011, at 8:07:21
Dinah, just because a mother is depressed or has some other mental illness, does this negate the fact that not giving a child what they need is neglect?
In psychology, from my experience, neglect, just like criticism, is applied to a spectrum of things. Neglect is simply not giving children the love, attention and nurture they need for proper development. It is that simple.
And if your parents have let you down, on a consistent basis that negatively impacts your development, it is neglect.
Posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 0:43:02
In reply to Re: Ferber » morgan miller, posted by floatingbridge on February 26, 2011, at 14:19:47
>So I offer that the importance of maternal bond may not be hard-wired,
as long as a child's needs are met by (emphasis here) consistent caregivers so that reliable bonds form.I don't think the maternal bond has to be the strongest for a child to be healthy. But, there is so much research and evidence out there saying that the maternal bond is the one that has the greatest impact on development, for both girls and boys.
Posted by Dinah on February 27, 2011, at 1:02:14
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 0:40:05
I don't believe I used a mother's depression as an excuse for neglect. That would be quite unlike me.
I think I said that the sort of thing you were describing could happen whether or not a mother is depressed, and is not actually all that uncommon. I don't see any particular reason to single out depressed mothers. Yes, it is a spectrum. I suppose we disagree on where on the spectrum it belongs, and possibly also on what constitutes what is necessary for proper development in general as opposed to what an individual might consider to have been necessary for their proper development.
Obviously this idea is very important to you. Is it part of your therapy? My therapist isn't an attachment therapist. I really can't even comprehend it in the same terms you do. Therefore I'm letting this conversation go.
I hope you are able to find what your mother was unable to provide for you.
Posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 1:09:07
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by Dinah on February 26, 2011, at 19:06:23
>But I'm not sure I am in favor of holding well intentioned parents doing the best they can do to blame for things like not giving eye contact or not having joy or even for leaving them crying when they needed comfort because their doctor advised that that was what good parents do. What is the point?
The emotions you express to your child have great impact on the way they feel about themselves. A child learns to love themselves through the ability of a parent to express their love for a child. I remember my therapist(phd in clinical psychology) saying that a parent is supposed to be happy and excited to see their child after being separated for a period of time. This helps create a stronger bond and tells the child how much you care about them and their presence, which then creates an environment in which they can learn that they really truly matter. Also, parent's emotional reactions also help children develop the same emotions. There's a reason why there is such intensive therapy applied to autistic children that involves animated emotions of joy, happiness, celebration, etc.
Why is it important to make a big deal out of things like this? One reason is to help more people realize that often times we are not simply born certain ways. Sure there is a genetic predispostion, but environmment is just as much a factor or more in a child being able to develop the healthiest way possible giving what they are born with. As parents we can and do make a huge difference. The more we keep saying, "Oh I was just born this way", or, "My child was just born this way", the better and better the chances that we do not make progress and continue to think that there is/was no way to prevent or influence, and medication is the only answer. Additionally, raised awareness over the impact parents have on their children would hopefully translate to more people deciding to make sure they have done what they can to be as psychologically sound as possible before having children in the first place.
Please don't take this as a criticism or like I'm being harsh. I'm not someone that plays the blame game. I love my parents to death and totally forgive them for all their mistakes and shortcomings. But, I will never say, "it's o.k. that my parents fell far short of giving me what I needed because they were well intentioned and didn't know any better". Do things like this make it easier to forgive them, yes. Does the fact that I know they really do and did love me make it easier to forgive them, yes. Still, they were responsible. My parents didn't realize it while they were doing it, but they f*ck*d up big time. That's usually the case when we are f*ck*ng up, we have no clue how much we are doing so while we are doing it.
Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 1:21:07
In reply to Re: Ferber » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on February 26, 2011, at 19:21:50
>I suspect that human infants were designed to be resilient.
Dinah, I'm really sorry, but I find this kind of statement made my people that are parents to be a way of shedding responsibility and staying in denial so as to protect our own feelings of guilt.
This belief is also very counterproductive to making progressing beyond what has been the prevailing conditions for a long time, and getting back to how things were and were meant to be. I'm talking about before we starting making things complicating and began the cycle of hurt. It is a cycle by the way. Hurt does not just go away and children are not so resilient as to be able to recover from hurt on their own. If you want to refer to resilience as denial, or behavior deviations, or relationship troubles, or artistic expression, etc., then I guess children going through development to adulthood are very very resilient.Scott said this same thing. I believe he said it as a way to minimize the impact that his early years may have had on the development of his mental illness.
Again, Sorry Dinah. I'm sure you are a very good mother. My previous post was not meant to insinuate that you were not a good parent. I was simply arguing why it matters that we break things down, analyze them as much as possible, and begin to place more responsibily on parents, both mother and father.
Morgan
Posted by sigismund on February 27, 2011, at 1:38:34
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 1:21:07
Some kids are easy and others not. Given enough kids there might always be enough to overtax any parent's abilities.
And this is the real world, unamenable sometimes/mostly to remedy from existing therapies.My experience has been that it is less important to satisfy a kid's needs than it is to avoid making a bad situation worse, and to refrain from impingement.
Other than that, I agree with DH Lawrence's 'Leave them alone, leave them alone, leave them alone', which meant, given C19 child rearing practices, refrain from impingement.
But give interest, attention, clear boundaries and what love you can, and forget your own needs as far as possible.
Posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 1:41:26
In reply to Re: Ferber » morgan miller, posted by Dinah on February 27, 2011, at 1:02:14
>I think I said that the sort of thing you were describing could happen whether or not a mother is depressed, and is not actually all that uncommon. I don't see any particular reason to single out depressed mothers.
Any mother or father that neglects or is unable to love their child they way they need love, has some kind of issue going on, whether is is depression or not. So yes, depression is one issue that can contribute to a parent's inability to express and offer the totality of the love they have inside to their child. Actually, one could argue that any parent with any kind of emotional issue has some kind of depression lingering inside.
>Obviously this idea is very important to you. Is it part of your therapy? My therapist isn't an attachment therapist. I really can't even comprehend it in the same terms you do. Therefore I'm letting this conversation go.
Your therapist may believe it is counterproductive to focus on the impact parents have on their children's development. They may feel that many people have a very difficult time confronting these truths so a different approach may yield results without the painful proces. I'd be curious to see what your therapist's beliefs are on parent's impact on a child's development.
My therapist believes it is necessary to realize how my parents impacted me and how what they did or did not do is still impacting me. The idea is that if you never face these realities, you can never begin to work through the anger, and other left over emotional injury, in a proper way that will allow you to free yourself of the destructive influence of these elements of your psyche. Most of us, have inner anger. If we don't find a way to get to the bottom of it and deal with it, it will almost certainly be turned against ourselves at some point or another. Or, we will continue to find ways to channel it that are ultimately counterproductive. This is just one reason why my therapist believes in getting me to realize the truth about my past and focus on it, in a productive way of course. If we realize what happened to us, we can then start to let ourselves off the hook and have more empathy and compassion for ourselves. Through this, we can begin the healing process. He definitely does not have a one sides style or philosophy, and it's not just about attachment. He just wants to help you create an environment within yourself in which you can begin to nurture yourself so as to be able to love and respect yourself more like you would have had your parents been able to do for you. The parents primary responsibility is proper love and nurture, we should all be able to agree on that.
Morgan
Posted by Dinah on February 27, 2011, at 3:02:43
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 1:41:26
> So yes, depression is one issue that can contribute to a parent's inability to express and offer the totality of the love they have inside to their child. Actually, one could argue that any parent with any kind of emotional issue has some kind of depression lingering inside.
I don't concede that depressed parents have an inability to express or offer the totality of the love they have for their child. And certainly you could argue that any parent who is less than perfect has an emotional issue that is depression. They may not do it in the way your therapist considers ideal. I can't offhand recall any parent of my acquaintance who might live up to such high standards.
And certainly you could argue that any parent who doesn't meet your standards has an emotional issue that is depression. That doesn't really fit in with my understanding of the term "depression". But depression can be conceived in different ways, and if it fits with your understanding, then you can certainly argue it.
> Your therapist may believe it is counterproductive to focus on the impact parents have on their children's development. They may feel that many people have a very difficult time confronting these truths so a different approach may yield results without the painful proces. I'd be curious to see what your therapist's beliefs are on parent's impact on a child's development.Well actually I mentioned your posts to my therapist on Friday. Believe me, he isn't soft pedaling his beliefs so as to not make me feel bad. I won't share his reaction to the issues involved, because he of course wasn't expressing them with civility guidelines in mind. But suffice it to say he isn't inclined to censure parents who do the right thing while depressed.
> Dinah, I'm really sorry, but I find this kind of statement made my people that are parents to be a way of shedding responsibility and staying in denial so as to protect our own feelings of guilt.
Morgan, I'm trying to respect your stance. I'm trying to respect your beliefs. I'm trying to understand that it is important to your healing to hold these beliefs. I ask you to try to understand that I just don't believe what you believe. Not because I want to shed responsibility or stay in denial. But because I don't believe what you believe. Please don't assume other motivations.
It's not all that important to me to believe I didn't cause harm. Or that my mother didn't cause me harm. I feel responsible for those parenting errors I have made. I hold my mother responsible for her parenting errors too. I feel guilty for any emotional hurt I've caused my son. And I know I have caused him pain, no matter how hard I try not to - just as my mother caused me pain even though she didn't wish to. I hope I'm more self aware and thus cause less pain than my mother did. But I feel no guilt for postpartum depression. *Not* *one* *iota*.
Again, I hope you find what you're looking for in therapy. And, for myself, I hope you can meet those standards you set for yourself, and that you aren't consumed with guilt should you happen to fall short.
Posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 15:40:02
In reply to Re: Ferber » morgan miller, posted by Dinah on February 27, 2011, at 3:02:43
>It's not all that important to me to believe I didn't cause harm. Or that my mother didn't cause me harm. I feel responsible for those parenting errors I have made. I hold my mother responsible for her parenting errors too. I feel guilty for any emotional hurt I've caused my son. And I know I have caused him pain, no matter how hard I try not to - just as my mother caused me pain even though she didn't wish to. I hope I'm more self aware and thus cause less pain than my mother did. But I feel no guilt for postpartum depression. *Not* *one* *iota*.
I don't think you should feel guilty. You had no control over what happened. I should not have said what I said about guilt. I do think we are all influenced to see things a certain way sometimes, and this may leave us less open minded to seeing what may be closer to reality. I'm not saying this is you, I'm just saying. I still am influenced by biases or other emotional factors. When I realize this I try to check myself and take a good look at all evidence, theories, beliefs, etc.
It is not just depressed mothers or mothers suffering from mental illness that is my primary focus. It is all parents that carry things with them that get in the way of them being able to properly love themselves and in turn properly love their children, family, friends, and life time partner.
What is it exactly that you don't believe that I believe? That our childhood does not influence later development of mental illness? There are studies that show women who were more prone to depression were more likely to fall ill to postpartum depression. And, as you know, whether there is a genetic predisposition or not, I believe, and pretty much all in the field of psychology believe, environment and nurture during development does contribute to mental health issues, in childhood and adulthood. There's simply too much history and repeated patterns and research to back this up.
So, because parenting likely plays such a large large role in our development emotionally and possibly even chemically(there is research to back this up too), it would make sense that as a society it would be in our best interest to do whatever we can to improve upon our mental health as much as possible before we take on the responsibility of parenting. Now, if we were one of the lucky few that had a very sound upbringing, we would still have to try to do some growing and preparation, but it would not be a process which involves intensive therapy, individual and group.
I would be curious to know what your therapist believes about exactly what children need to develop into sound minded individuals that feel a good healthy amount of self worth and self love.
>I don't concede that depressed parents have an inability to express or offer the totality of the love they have for their child. And certainly you could argue that any parent who is less than perfect has an emotional issue that is depression. They may not do it in the way your therapist considers ideal. I can't offhand recall any parent of my acquaintance who might live up to such high standards.
Dinah, I don't think any situation, any person, any parent, any relationship with being totally perfect or ideal. I do think that we should be always strive for at least near ideality and near perfection. We strive for eating a near perfect diet for great health so we can live as full a life as possible. We stive for ideals in government so we can live as full a life as possible. We strive for the best way to workout in order to be as healthy and as strong as possible. Why would striving for ideals and near perfecting in parenting be any different. If anything, it is parenting that is at the very top of the priority pyramid. This is why I put so much emphasis on and am so passionate about these types of issues. This is the reason for me posting studies like the one in this thread. I believe that we can prevent so much suffering from developing into what it does through enhancing societies awareness of the impact of parents on their children. Too often we take the easy way out, as children, as parents, and as a society, by just saying, "It's a matter of genetics, this is how I, he/she, they were born". Yes, it is a matter of genetics in many cases, but those genetics are influenced heavily by environment. The same goes for many illnesses that develop earlier or later in life. A genetic predisposition is just that. I'm beginning to ramble, sorry.
>Again, I hope you find what you're looking for in therapy. And, for myself, I hope you can meet those standards you set for yourself, and that you aren't consumed with guilt should you happen to fall short.Thank you, sorry for bringing up a sensitive subject. I will find what I'm looking for in therapy because I want to and will do and have done a ton of hard work and put in a ton of time to get there. I won't ever be consumed by guilt, I don't operate that way. What I will do is be passionate enough and aware enough to feel the sense of urgency to provide myself and others around me with what is necessary. And if I make a few mistakes here and there, I will make sure I don't continue them and will move forward and try to grow. I will feel bad, but I will not dwell. Afterall, we are only human.
Morgan
Posted by Phillipa on February 27, 2011, at 19:57:59
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 15:40:02
My own Mother had addison's disease and psorisis covered whole body. Given cortisone when new. Didn't know what they were doing. She had temper tantums then said I'd killed her and an example was she said she had to carry me up two flights of stairs when a baby. My Bingo moment came when carrying my Daughter up flights of stairs I said to myself carrying a child does not make a person sick or kill them. I instantly realized the profound effects those meds had on her and realized it was not her but the meds. And I kind of laughed to self and said. Not her fault. Never let it influence me again. She died when I was 17 should I blame her for dying. I carried on married had three kids and was fine. Only at age 24 had panic which I now know what it's from not upbringing an action I did to an adult not a child. So resiliance of a child me was very strong. Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on February 27, 2011, at 21:21:05
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by morgan miller on February 27, 2011, at 15:40:02
I suppose my main concern was the focus on depression in mothers as opposed to mothers, or parents, in general. But that point seems to be not in disagreement after your latest post and I am glad to see that.
I of course agree, as does my therapist, that parenting experiences play a role in our development. I don't think we ever disagreed about that, though, as I said, I think we disagree on the arrangement of the spectrum of neglect and the degree of impact on the average baby.
I have gotten the understanding that you feel you didn't receive what you needed from your mother, and that she was a depressed mother? Was she a good and nurturing mother as you got older?
Heaven knows I have plenty of experience of a mother with mental health issues. I suppose I wish I could have to go back to my infancy to find issues that result from my parents' behavior. I can't imagine how much better my life would have been if my mother had been in therapy and had more self awareness. Which may be why I place far more importance on character, intent, and self awareness than I do on the fact that a mother has depression.
You've been very gracious. I thank you for that.
Posted by Dinah on February 27, 2011, at 21:31:21
In reply to Re: Ferber, posted by Phillipa on February 27, 2011, at 19:57:59
Phillipa, it isn't acceptable for a mother to say that sort of thing on a continual basis. A one time outburst should maybe be forgotten, but a pattern of behavior just isn't ok for a child. I can see not blaming her if she was unable to control herself. I suppose blame isn't the healthiest response anyway. But I wish you hadn't had that burden at such a young age.
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