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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 29. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by kara lynne on July 13, 2003, at 0:35:35
This woman has been helping me through the move--I've paid her for her help, but she's also been moral support. She has had contact with my ex so I don't have to. I only asked her to please not tell him where I lived or where I was moving, just please not to say anthing at all about that. She said of course.
Tonight he went over there to give her the last of my stuff and he was working her for information. She finally said, the greater***** area. It was vague, but I didn't even want him to know the county. For stupid reasons, it doesn't even really matter. I wanted to keep intrigue as much as not having him find me. I got visibly angry which I just don't do. I get annoyed, but I usually stuff the real anger to avoid confrontation and people hating me. This time I was audible--she was screaming and telling me it didn't make any difference, she hadn't told him really where I was moving. I said, couldn't I just have one request, and that was to tell him nothing.
We got off the phone. I called back and she wouldn't answer. I banged the floor with a water bottle and freaked the cat out, then I hit myself repeatedly with it. After the 3rd attempt at calling I left a message, apologizing for losing my temper. I said she was doing me a favor and that I was sorry. She was doing me a favor. And I should know from past experience that she just says things I don't want her to to people--she's done it in the past. But I so specifically asked her...
Most every time I've ever showed real anger, it means the end of the friendship or relationship. I know this woman thought I was being truly ridiculous, and she was pissed as hell at me.
Just so I don't feel ok for even a moment, which I was starting to.
Posted by kara lynne on July 13, 2003, at 0:59:12
In reply to I lost my temper and probably a friend., posted by kara lynne on July 13, 2003, at 0:35:35
So I guess what I'm discovering is that you really are not ever allowed to lose your temper. I have been struggling with this for a long time: if someone does something that pisses you off, and you're justified in being angry, are you allowed, supposed, to show it? Is there ever an appropriate expression of anger--does anyone have such a handle on it that they are aware of what they're feeling and able to process it objectively as it's happening? Sometimes I have found it empowering in small doses, like if someone is just counting on my being "nice", but I have an honest reaction and it makes them scramble--appropriately. Instead of me having to scramble my brains from it.
But tonight I think that really, I should have just felt the anger, sucked it in and had better control, quietly gotten off the phone and gone and hurt myself even more with my anger. Because in the end all I feel is enormous guilt now, plus the rage I still feel that she told him anything. There was an initial, physical release. I could actually feel lightening in my stomach and solar plexus after I said what I meant.
But a few minutes go by and I think what a complete shmuck I was, she was doing me a frigging FAVOR, what a snotty bi#$% I was to lose my temper.
In my family my justified anger got me villified, so whatever anyone had done to make me angry could be overshadowed by the fact that my anger was bad and wrong. Then of course I could go incur a major, lifelong depression with a constant, nagging desire to kill myself instead. Or at least say those words like a drone inside my head, almost like they were'nt mine, because they weren't really. It was anger, justified, turned against myself.
No where to go with this except to sleep.
Posted by lostsailor on July 13, 2003, at 1:24:32
In reply to Anger, posted by kara lynne on July 13, 2003, at 0:59:12
I know knight you the Queen of the Self Reply, sometime three, and four in a row sometimes. Maybe we should all have titles. Gabbies could be the Queen double poster and mine the Jester of mindless posts I just wish one of us could be here to intercept and give you a vent.
IS OK between friends to lose your temper, I think (unless that's why I have so few :) ).
That's what friends are for: sing it like the song and loud ..."thru good times...bad times....KNOWING YOU CAN ALWAYS COUNT ON ...(insert names--feel free to add mine in the list.
Did you over react a bit? Perhaps. Do you have emotional things going on that explain doing so? Yes and especially with the simple favor you asked of her and her seemingly inability to respect it, BUT she may have really been sorry for doing it and not even been able to admit it to her-self or to you.
Give it a day or too and give her a call if she does not call first. True friendships, IMHO, bend not break. It is so easy for me to say, but I do it too, so here goes: don't be so hard on your-self. I am ducking as I type because I know how I want to throw things at people that tell me that.
Kara, you have been brave in leaving him. He did not respect you and I am so glad you see that now.
Personally, and I am not a mean person, but I am glad all is not peaches and cream in his life at the moment, for he has hurt a friend of mine.~tony
Aurora says hi, too!!
Posted by whiterabbit on July 13, 2003, at 10:07:06
In reply to Re: Anger, posted by lostsailor on July 13, 2003, at 1:24:32
If you're human, then you're going to get angry sometimes. Holding it all in just creates more tension & depression. You're extremely emotional right now due to the stress of breaking away from The Schmuck, and moving is a big deal too...we can only build up so much steam inside before something has to blow. It's normal, it's human, it's understandable...it doesn't make you a bad person who deserves punishment, you should NOT look at it that way. Everybody loses their temper.
Everybody.Apologize to your girlfriend but don't beat yourself up. Explain to her that you're under a lot of pressure right now, which you ARE, and it's important to you that The Schmuck doesn't find out where you're living. Don't make this a bigger deal than it really is, you don't need that right now.
You'll get through this, you will.
-Gracie
Posted by fallsfall on July 13, 2003, at 10:43:16
In reply to Anger, posted by kara lynne on July 13, 2003, at 0:59:12
I stuff my anger most of the time, too. I don't even know that I have the anger. Every once in a while someone will point out that I'm angry (usually I am demanding something in a very controlled way that gives the other person absolutely no option) - I have no idea that I'm angry.
My daughter thinks I'm angry a lot more often than I do. She's probably right.
I think your outburst was entirely understandable. She disobeyed your one request, you are leaving your boyfriend, moving and other things that my feable brain can't remember. You needed to get a little stress out, and she just happened to be the one who got in your face at the wrong time. Since she's a friend, she must understand at least in part what you are going through. If you call or email or visit and say what a horrible day it was for you and you hope that she will accept your apology for yelling at her, if she is your friend it will be OK. If she's not your friend, at least you got moved. Not everybody is willing to be there through thick and thin - but your real friends are. This may be a way to find out what side of the fence she is on.
I worry that you were hitting yourself, but I understand it. I have turned external anger inward, too. Were you angry at yourself because you yelled? Or was is just too much stress? Do you know?
None of us are perfect all the time. We need to accept that sometimes we'll do things that we're not thrilled about. We can try to make them positive experiences by learning from them. But we have to accept them as reasonable parts of normal people. How would you feel if someone did that undesirable thing to you? Would you understand? Would you forgive them? If you would forgive them, then you should forgive yourself. [Please copy and past this paragraph into a post for me. I need to hear it.]
I have so much to learn about anger. Maybe we can share revelations.
Posted by noa on July 13, 2003, at 10:52:41
In reply to Anger, posted by kara lynne on July 13, 2003, at 0:59:12
OK, I know the feelings of regret. But wait. Give her time to be mad for a bit, to process her own anger, then maybe she'll accept your apology. You don't know for sure that this is the end of this friendship. Don't draw conclusions. You have to give her some time. If you don't hear from her after a while, you can write a letter apologizing.
You don't have to NOT feel angry about the revelation even if you regret how the anger was delivered.
Hang in there.
Posted by kara lynne on July 13, 2003, at 13:54:50
In reply to Re: Anger » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on July 13, 2003, at 10:43:16
fallsfall,
Thank you for your post, you made me cry. I don't know why I was hitting myself--yes, because I lost it and showed clear anger toward someone else and also due to the stress. It was like something I used to do when I was a teenager--band my head against the wall when I was just so frustrated or angry, or angry at myself. I'm so pent up right now I'm ashamed to say it almost felt good, but I made myself stop.I left one message apologizing and another acknowledging that I put her in an awkward position. I asked her to call, but she hasn't--nor will she answer her phone. I know she was (and is) there and has caller ID.
I guess there's really nothing more I can do. And then there's the fact that I still do have the anger. Somehow I was lead to believe that my anger is invalid--I should overcome it, there's really no good reason (for me--like you say if it was you it would be different) for an outburst like I had last night. So I analyze and edit every emotion until I don't know what it is anymore.
I was angry. Valid or not, silly or not, I requested that she not say *anything* about where I lived now or was going to live. I spelled it out so specifically. She modified my request to fit what she thought was appropriate. Maybe that's at the root of it too--as well as the fact that she's just the kind of person to tell too much sometimes and I know that. That's why I tried to be so specific. But somehow in my family and with my ex my feelings are not allowed, or criticized. I'm not saying this well; I've never really articulated it before and it's coming out more trite than I mean it. But why can't I make a stupid request right now and simply have it honored? *That* I most surely would do for a friend.
But you listen enough to the other voices telling you to be "reasonable", maybe you're being too extreme, yadda yadda and it sucks back into that dull, depressed vacuum that dictates how I more typically express myself: checked, judged, modified. Oh ha ha, not really, it's ok. That kind of squished, milquetoasty behavior that I resent, but do all the time. There is a kind of beauty in being able to express something purely, but it feels very dangerous to me. I don't mean we should all go around like raging maniacs, but something has definitely squelched my expression in a profound way. In a way that has created a lifetime of depression.
Anyway, I'm off to counseling. I so appreciated your thoughts on all of this, fallsfall. Thank you.
Posted by kara lynne on July 13, 2003, at 16:00:14
In reply to Re: Anger/ fallsfall, posted by kara lynne on July 13, 2003, at 13:54:50
Ok, she's not a "therapist" per-se, but many therapists themselves go to her for counseling. Today in our session I spoke some of feeling a little more empowered after speaking to the ex yesterday (because the reality of who he still is was so glaring). I said it probably would have been worse with the office being near the house, because then he wouldn't even have to bring his work home--it would become one.
She then went on to describe what it would probably be like. Granted, my ex deals in extremism and pushes the edges of everything, art, life, sex, politics, anything. She said the place reminded her of the Hefner mansion that he's moving into, and that these parties would probably include people having sex over at the house, with my ex watching. And that he would have probably wanted me to watch too.
I couldn't go on with anything else during the hour. I said that comment just had me back feeling threatened about everything, and that it seemed almost cruel. She apologized and said she shouldn't have made it, but was trying to get me to see that I am not the one who should feel lacking, it is his life that is lacking that he needs all this to feel anything.
I don't know what to think. I feel like I'm having a bad acid trip, or something. It seems like such an inappropriate comment. This woman has been a counselor and tutor for many years; I have been seeing her for over 10 years. It almost seems like I have to get out of this relationship too now, maybe it's just another area I've been turning a blind eye. But she's helped me a lot too, and I'm really not sure.
I don't have the energy or clarity. It's just weird as hell.
Posted by gabbix2 on July 13, 2003, at 16:06:35
In reply to Re: Anger, posted by lostsailor on July 13, 2003, at 1:24:32
When I was moving, and I was wound so tightly I would have shattered if you brushed against me. I lost my temper with one of my closest friends and I told you about it. It freaked me cause I don't "do" that either.
And I also told you what her response was"Honey, you are going through so much right now
you're brittle, I'm sorry I picked the wrong time to say something like that, don't worry about it"Thats what a *thinking* friend does.
All you have to do is watch T.V to know people
aren't always rational when under too much stress
and you are under a lot of stress.Lost Sailors right. Especially if you rarely have gotten angry before she should really be understanding.
Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2003, at 17:32:18
In reply to Intentionally cruel therapist?, posted by kara lynne on July 13, 2003, at 16:00:14
It was definitely not one of her finer moments. But there's no reason to think it was anything but screamingly insensitive, is there? How is your history with her? Is she overall helpful?
There are times that I think my therapist is being deliberately unkind, or playing on my weaknesses when he's angry with me. But later in talking to him, it's clear that his only sin is occasional denseness. And he's always regretful and he learns well from his mistakes. :)
I think it's worth talking to her about it.
Posted by kara lynne on July 13, 2003, at 18:25:37
In reply to Re: Un-Intentionally cruel therapist? » kara lynne, posted by Dinah on July 13, 2003, at 17:32:18
God, I really hope you're right. At this point I have her up there with Cruella DeVille. I'm paranoid that she doesn't want me strong, and thinking she picked on a weak spot of mine (sexual jealousy) to make me ragingly insecure about the ex.
She did apologize. She's also "psychic"--I hate to say that because it sounds so flaky and she really is not flaky--but she was saying those things as if she really believed them to be true. Not just a 'what if' kind of scenario. Because I asked her again, and she confirmed that she really saw this happening. That takes it to another level, and maybe a dangerous one. I don't know if *I* believe that this type of thing is going to happen over at the house I would have been moving into tomorrow. I really woudn't have thought so until she said it. But now it's there for me to obsess about non-stop, as I have been all day.
I was intending to go to a support goup/meditation class over at her office this afternoon, but now that this happened I didn't.
Maybe it's the full moon. Or maybe it's that every aspect of my life is truly falling apart.
Posted by fallsfall on July 13, 2003, at 21:13:37
In reply to Re: Un-Intentionally cruel therapist?/ Dinah, posted by kara lynne on July 13, 2003, at 18:25:37
Gosh. You didn't need this. I agree with Dinah that she is probably just being insensitive. When our therapist makes a mistake, it feels awful and has lasting ramifications. From your reaction, I'm guessing that she doesn't make too many mistakes.
Just like you, she isn't perfect. Don't expect her to be. Can you forgive her for her mistake?
"Psychic" or not you don't know what the future will bring. You are not in the house, so you don't have to worry about it. The Schmuck is gone. Let him do his own thing, whatever that is.
You have YOUR life to live.
Posted by kara lynne on July 14, 2003, at 2:34:28
In reply to Re: Un-Intentionally cruel therapist? » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on July 13, 2003, at 21:13:37
fallsfall,
I hope I can forgive her. I guess I can if I can convince myself there wasn't a malicious motive behind what she said. I told someone about it today who knows her, and she said it sounded like she was saying 'aren't you glad you won't be there'. But it had the opposite effect. I really *was* starting to feel ok that I wasn't going to be living there, but this pushes all my buttons and has me back obsessing full time about him and what he'll be doing.The thought of what she said makes me sick to my stomach. It makes me feel so awful to know that that is what he's going to be doing without me. It makes me feel horrible about myself that that is what he chooses over me. And it pisses me off because somewhere I think she's wrong and he won't be doing that, and why do I have to pay for her mistake.
And part of me thinks my therapist would know this about me after 10 years. She knows who I am, she knows what I obsess about. Granted she's not perfect, she'd be the first one to tell you that. But I just keep wondering why on earth she would ever say something so upsetting to me.
I will talk to her again about it. The problem is that it set me back again so badly in terms of how I'm feeling. I feel weak and needy again, whereas yesterday after I talked to him I thought, The Shmuck, I'm better off without him. Now I'm missing him, wanting him to call me, thinking I'm not ok without his validation. This is the first thing my therapist would ostensibly not be wanting me to feel. I told her I was having trouble not seeing myself as he sees me--as this middle of the road, frantically aging, pathetic woman scared to get a life (every desire I had for stability was always seen in this light). Especially in comparison to Mr. Brilliance and Intrigue. So why would she say something to play into the insecurity?
I don't know why this happened or what about that comment triggered me so drastically, but it did. Maybe it comes from the demoralization of being with an essentially impotent man for five years that never really bothered to do anything about it. I couldn't do it for him, but this could? If that doesn't make me go into self hatred I don't know what else would.
I long for the day when I am over this shmuck. When I can understand that creative genius with no heart is no prize. I was at a good friend's for dinner, such nice people. And all I could keep thinking of were what kind of people *he* was with, and how much more exciting everyone would be. While I get more gray and discuss swimming at the Y with my nice, athletic, pedestrian friends that I'm sure my ex would have found some way to insult. And I would have been too uncomfortable to be with his exciting friends, unless we maintained a connection which we never did. I'll play with your friends if you love me, I'll love you if you play with my friends...this is how it used to go. Up until that last night when he was telling me that if I had dinner prepared for him when he came in from the office that maybe then he would want to sleep with me more.
ARRRGH SEE? It's got me HERE! No, I didn't need this at all. Thanks fallsfall.
Posted by fallsfall on July 14, 2003, at 8:58:18
In reply to Re: Un-Intentionally cruel therapist?, posted by kara lynne on July 14, 2003, at 2:34:28
Can you call your therapist? Maybe she could help you calm down about this. At least she can clarify her motives and what she meant. I would call sooner rather than later, these things have a way of increasing exponentially over time.
I really think that you'll decide that it isn't as bad as you think it is now.
Meantime, feel free to rant and rave here. We're listening.
Posted by Tabitha on July 14, 2003, at 12:39:48
In reply to Re: Un-Intentionally cruel therapist?/ Dinah, posted by kara lynne on July 13, 2003, at 18:25:37
I'll butt in here and say... it disturbs me to hear that a therapist would predict the future as if it's a certainty. That doesn't seem right.
Posted by Tabitha on July 14, 2003, at 12:55:25
In reply to Re: Un-Intentionally cruel therapist?, posted by kara lynne on July 14, 2003, at 2:34:28
well here I am again. Just read your last post. This guy doesn't sound very down-to-earth. Is he a bit of a narcissist? I have a history with that type. Trust me, you'll be fine with more real people, and real conversation, without all the phony 'brilliance'.
I read a book once called "The Emotionally Abused Woman". It wasn't the greatest book, but it had profiles of bad matches. The one that fit me was The Narcissist and the Selfless Woman. I'd pick these guys with big shiny (yet brittle) veneers because they seemed the opposite of me. They seemed to have it all together, total confidence, no fear at all, very definite in their opinions. But you know what? It's fake. It's a big cover-up. And they're never warm. It feels better to be close to real people.
Posted by gabbix2 on July 14, 2003, at 13:25:51
In reply to Re: P.S. » kara lynne, posted by Tabitha on July 14, 2003, at 12:55:25
I've never had a therapist ever. So I'm not educated in this, but I find the therapists comment about
him "probably having you watch other couples have sex" really disturbing too.
I think I would be a little more judgemental than anyone here so far, about it being a slip-up.
Its not the subject matter, its the fact that she's inventing scenarios, that she knows are going to hit a very tender spot that I find so problematic.
Using circumstantial evidence to create gut wrenching *potential* circumstances which only serve to hurt the client seems apalling to me.Aren't therapists supposed to help you find your own problems, and weaknesses and help you develop your own solutions to them?
I think there are times that all rules need to be bent but I can't see any good coming from that at all, unless she thought Kara Lynne was hopelessly nieve and possibly in some emotional danger.
And I know the hopelessly nieve part isn't true.It seems like a serious transgression to me.
Posted by kara lynne on July 14, 2003, at 14:09:25
In reply to Re: P.S. » kara lynne, posted by Tabitha on July 14, 2003, at 12:55:25
There under the word in the dictionary is his picture. I can't wait to get that book. You know the type and describe him well, and have similar reasons as I do for picking these gems.
Ironically, in college 20 some-odd years ago he was reading a book called, "The Culture of Narcissism". So progressive for a little ****, huh? Anyway, he was telling me what a good book it was (then, that is) and recommending it. I really wanted to say something about that lately, like I should have taken the hint that he was the culture of narcissism. Ugh.
Posted by kara lynne on July 14, 2003, at 14:13:47
In reply to Future predicting therapist » Tabitha, posted by gabbix2 on July 14, 2003, at 13:25:51
Hey Gabbi,
I tend to agree with you, although I'm thankful for posters like fallsfall and dinah because it's so hard for me to think that I don't have *anyone* at this point. Maybe there's a chance it's not as drastic as I (we?) see it.Also since she's not a true "therapist" the lines aren't as clear, although these ones seem pretty obvious to me. It really did a number on me and I haven't recovered at all from it.
I have a call into her.
Thanks double girl.
Posted by kara lynne on July 14, 2003, at 14:27:52
In reply to Re: Un-Intentionally cruel therapist? » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on July 14, 2003, at 8:58:18
Posted by gabbix2 on July 14, 2003, at 14:43:03
In reply to Future predicting therapist » Tabitha, posted by gabbix2 on July 14, 2003, at 13:25:51
Yeah, thats true, good point. It would really suck to have your whole world turn upside down right now. And well I was wrong once before : )
Posted by kara lynne on July 14, 2003, at 15:09:44
In reply to Re: Future predicting therapist » gabbix2, posted by gabbix2 on July 14, 2003, at 14:43:03
I agree with you completely... unfortunately. And I feel like if I continue with her I'll just be in pathetic denial. And that is not to say I won't continue. : (
Posted by fallsfall on July 14, 2003, at 15:35:56
In reply to Nonetheless...(gabbix), posted by kara lynne on July 14, 2003, at 15:09:44
Posted by Tabitha on July 15, 2003, at 1:37:40
In reply to A *bit* of a narcissist!, posted by kara lynne on July 14, 2003, at 14:09:25
OK so he's a huge bit of narcissist. I haven't gone for that type lately. I just re-visited my other bad match-- the not quite grown-up but cute and cuddly boy-man. The boy-man and I are like Hansel and Gretel together-- lost in the woods, holding hands.
After I quit picking the boy-man variety... do I finally get to be with a Good Match?
Posted by kara lynne on July 15, 2003, at 2:03:02
In reply to Re: A *bit* of a narcissist! » kara lynne, posted by Tabitha on July 15, 2003, at 1:37:40
That's cute--Hansel and Gretel holding hands in the forest. I don't know anything about good matches. Maybe good witches.
My friend joined me up on a computer service to meet friends and or dates. I described what I was looking for as a "really mean, narcissitic, brilliant artist with erection difficulty."
So maybe I'm still bitter.
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