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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 36. Go back in thread:
Posted by Greg A. on October 26, 2002, at 7:40:06
In reply to Women/Womin and My Problems..boohooo!! everyone!, posted by jay on October 26, 2002, at 6:50:16
Jay - I am married with 2 almost grown (so they think)daughters, have recently turned 50 much to my alarm, and possess many of the same admirable qualities you ascribe to yourself. Including mental illness, for which I continually search for ways to make myself better. At one program I went through, I met this lady, Kelly, who was dealing with depression in her life. It seems the love of her life, her husband of many years who we gradually learned, drank, beat her, chased other women, and generally fit the mold of the man we try never to be, was planning to leave her because she was mentally ill. Resisting the urge to shout 'Good riddance!!' the people in the group, both male and female told Kelly that she was a good person and deserving of so much more in a relationship. I kept in contact with Kelly and she finally split with Mr. Wonderful. I asked her, about a year later, how she had ever become involved with such a jerk in the first place. She asked where all the nice sensitive guys like me were, when she was younger. Probably hovering around her trying to get her attention.
Posted by SandraDee on October 26, 2002, at 11:01:33
In reply to Women/Womin and My Problems..boohooo!! everyone!, posted by jay on October 26, 2002, at 6:50:16
I'd date ya hahahaha... but ah, I'm married :)
I wanted to say that maybe she wanted you to ask her out 5 months ago, and now feels like you invited her as a 'pity date' or something. She might resent the fact that you didn't ask her out sooner. Just keep it low-key on your "friend-date". Be a friend then... and maybe after "date" three... you'll be holding hands or something :) Give her time to see the outside of work, and playful Jay. Find out what she really likes, (maybe a new CD) and buy it for her. Bring a toy for her child. I'm just thinking of things that would make me think twice about a guy if I was a single mom.
Oh well - had to check out the picture to find out why you are having troubles getting a date, now that I've seen your picture and hear what you've posted - I am just as confused why you are having problems :) That sounds really shallow - but trust me there is a compliment in there somewhere.
Toodles,
Me
Posted by susan C on October 26, 2002, at 13:07:10
In reply to Women/Womin and My Problems..boohooo!! everyone!, posted by jay on October 26, 2002, at 6:50:16
Hi,
Interested in an older woman? No, just kidding, I'd only want to be friends, friends, friends, friends, friends....I kept telling my boys (19 and 23) as they watched their friends get involved one after another...that there was no reasoning to why this happened. THe last time I saw the 23 year old, he said, he had given up completely on trying to figure out 'how to behave' to attract a female. He was at a party of mutual friends, and a gal was talking to him, and said, hey, you are kinda cute, and he said, you are kinda cute too...later she said, and you are nice too...so now, they are boy and girl friend...the younger one, had to get 'hit on' repeatedly by his now gf, before he realized what was going on and that the next step was his...and all he had to say was yes...I experienced both of those experiences when young and single. There were several guys I was attracted to and just about bashed them over the head...maybe I should have...eventually, I learned and did just about do that with my mate of thirty years. We don't have mating plumage, or a dance, maybe we do...one thing I said, over and over, is, you never know when you are going to meet the second person you will spend the rest of your life with. While you are waiting, make sure the first person (yourself) is the one you really enjoy.
philosophical mouse
Posted by Dinah on October 26, 2002, at 15:22:59
In reply to Women/Womin and My Problems..boohooo!! everyone!, posted by jay on October 26, 2002, at 6:50:16
Jay, am I remembering correctly that you have participated in group therapy? Did this subject come up, and did the group have any insights? It seems like group therapy would be ideal for this sort of thing.
Dinah
Posted by jay on October 26, 2002, at 15:29:21
In reply to Re: Women/Womin and My Problems..boohooo!! everyone!, posted by Greg A. on October 26, 2002, at 7:40:06
Hey Greg:Thanks very much for the insightful and thoughtful reply. I think I can relate to what you are getting at, as I had dated this one gal who was just 'separated', from a guy who was very abusive, and she even told me, she was totally turned off by myself being a 'nice' guy. Geezz..there is a real booster, eh?..hehee.
But, like you, I always 'refused' to turn into some macho idiot just to 'score'. Cheap and meaningless 'relationships', usually 'casual encounters', are easy to come by, and it's weird, but I find many women are just as bad as men about this. That is, they prefer a quick 'fling' rather than a committed, long-term relationship. Again, it seems many women don't want to get 'emotionally' close, and prefer the disposability of a one-night fling.
So, I can really see your last point about '..hovering around', because it seems like some woman are so blind to ques, and often refuse to take the first-step. Then, like in my case, sometimes they equate you asking them out with a marriage proposal. Geezzz..
Anyhow..thanks again for your wise and insightful words!
Jay
> Jay - I am married with 2 almost grown (so they think)daughters, have recently turned 50 much to my alarm, and possess many of the same admirable qualities you ascribe to yourself. Including mental illness, for which I continually search for ways to make myself better. At one program I went through, I met this lady, Kelly, who was dealing with depression in her life. It seems the love of her life, her husband of many years who we gradually learned, drank, beat her, chased other women, and generally fit the mold of the man we try never to be, was planning to leave her because she was mentally ill. Resisting the urge to shout 'Good riddance!!' the people in the group, both male and female told Kelly that she was a good person and deserving of so much more in a relationship. I kept in contact with Kelly and she finally split with Mr. Wonderful. I asked her, about a year later, how she had ever become involved with such a jerk in the first place. She asked where all the nice sensitive guys like me were, when she was younger. Probably hovering around her trying to get her attention.
Posted by Tabßitha on October 26, 2002, at 15:49:27
In reply to Women/Womin and My Problems..boohooo!! everyone!, posted by jay on October 26, 2002, at 6:50:16
Aw geez, Jay. I think you misinterpreted her signals. Just reading the 1st part about how she was confiding in you, I felt sure she was not interested romantically. She was treating you as a friend from the get-go. If a woman is interested romantically, there's going to be more nervous flirtation than easy conversation, and she's sure not going to be complaining about how lonely she is. That's buddy behavior.
I hate seeing guys fall into that trap. It's just a fact of life that women will often be interested in men just as friends, and if you want romance, you've got to learn to distinguish that from romantic interest. The worst part is when guys hang around doing "just friends" hoping she'll change her mind. At least you wised up when she put her cards on the table.
Incidentally, I think the "just friends" trap for men is the equivalent of the "just lovers" trap for women, when women fail to distinguish sexual interest from romantic interest on the man's part.
Posted by jay on October 26, 2002, at 15:55:39
In reply to Not too bad, Jay! » jay, posted by SandraDee on October 26, 2002, at 11:01:33
Hey SandraDee:Thank you *so much* for the kind compliment. :-) <Am I blushing?..hehee>
Yes..and as I always say..the 'good' ones are already taken. ;-) And I very much appreciate the compliment of my moronic pic. I look like a deer standing in an oncoming cars headlights..hehee.I don't honestly think it was because I had waited to ask her out on a pity date, mainly because her very quick and powerful reaction. It was like I was asking her to marry me, and she just seemed so horrified at the idea of her and I going out on a 'date'. As I said before...she was always complaining she was single and that always makes me shake my head. Are some woman really that shallow, that even though you are considered to be one of the nicest guys in existence (so..I don't mean that in an egotistical way...but I am a social worker, and my communication and socialization skills are very well refined. I work VERY hard at complimenting people, and making anybody I talk to feel pretty good about themselves. It also comes across that I am a fair bit confident of myself in social situations. Now that I know her from the past six months, and talking to her about various things, it sorta seems she feels she deserves a Brad Pitt look-alike, who is 'cool', etc. Maybe she wasn't the one, then, that I should think about going out with.
I could talk to this to her, but this would get her in a little 'fit' because she can't have her superficial needs filled. But..it was her loss. Once I have been slighted like that, ya I do get a bit ticked, but I will just continue by offering her cold responses. I used to take my breaks and just talk with her. Maybe it will make her think twice..but I doubt it. After being rejected so 'coldly' (she could have at least said we would 'talk' about it..or just let things be and go out on a 'normal' date, and see what happens. She slammed the door before I even got my foot in it.
Nobody likes rejection, and that's what this is. I don't play 'games'..and I will just move on. That is probably better for my mental health. Her loss...
Anyhow..thanks kindly for the nice reply. :-)
Jay
> I'd date ya hahahaha... but ah, I'm married :)
> I wanted to say that maybe she wanted you to ask her out 5 months ago, and now feels like you invited her as a 'pity date' or something. She might resent the fact that you didn't ask her out sooner. Just keep it low-key on your "friend-date". Be a friend then... and maybe after "date" three... you'll be holding hands or something :) Give her time to see the outside of work, and playful Jay. Find out what she really likes, (maybe a new CD) and buy it for her. Bring a toy for her child. I'm just thinking of things that would make me think twice about a guy if I was a single mom.
> Oh well - had to check out the picture to find out why you are having troubles getting a date, now that I've seen your picture and hear what you've posted - I am just as confused why you are having problems :) That sounds really shallow - but trust me there is a compliment in there somewhere.
> Toodles,
> Me
Posted by jay on October 26, 2002, at 16:11:04
In reply to searching?, posted by susan C on October 26, 2002, at 13:07:10
Hey Mouse:Thanks for your nice reply. :-) And yes..I sorta do have a thing for older women. ;-)
You know, in my situation, I responded to someone who was very open and kind at many times, and even some of my co-workers where a bit surprised at the outcome.
But, yeah I am feeling much better about myself, but as so many know, depression is SUCH a lonely illness. I am doing much better (touch wood), and many of my previous 'outgoing' characteristics are coming right back. At 33, I obviously am soul-searching for my mate. I don't come across as desperate, but I do hold back a bit less especially after surviving a decade of massive anxiety and depression. As I try to always say.."..it's her loss", and she seems so unhappy for herself, I really think it will come back to haunt her as she gets older. Wishful thinking on my part, eh?..hehee
Well, thanks again..it feels nice to have some 'concerned'..at that really is great support. :-)
Take good care...and I will post my number shortly..haaahaa! :-) (j/k)
Jay
> Hi,
> Interested in an older woman? No, just kidding, I'd only want to be friends, friends, friends, friends, friends....I kept telling my boys (19 and 23) as they watched their friends get involved one after another...that there was no reasoning to why this happened. THe last time I saw the 23 year old, he said, he had given up completely on trying to figure out 'how to behave' to attract a female. He was at a party of mutual friends, and a gal was talking to him, and said, hey, you are kinda cute, and he said, you are kinda cute too...later she said, and you are nice too...so now, they are boy and girl friend...the younger one, had to get 'hit on' repeatedly by his now gf, before he realized what was going on and that the next step was his...and all he had to say was yes...
>
> I experienced both of those experiences when young and single. There were several guys I was attracted to and just about bashed them over the head...maybe I should have...eventually, I learned and did just about do that with my mate of thirty years. We don't have mating plumage, or a dance, maybe we do...one thing I said, over and over, is, you never know when you are going to meet the second person you will spend the rest of your life with. While you are waiting, make sure the first person (yourself) is the one you really enjoy.
>
> philosophical mouse
Posted by SandraDee on October 26, 2002, at 20:02:03
In reply to Re: Not too bad, Jay! » SandraDee, posted by jay on October 26, 2002, at 15:55:39
Friend Zone. Ewww. Although I'm stuck there with my only single male friend (not hubby's friend) because I'm married... but he has told me more than once we are soul-mates. hahahaha I think he just likes having a girl to talk to. Sounds like you are much more confident than him. It'll happen Jay, you sound like a nice guy - and I don't mean that negatively :)
I never was one of the "bad-boy" go getters.... although my husband has that side of him. Who knows at the rate we are going - it might not be long before I'm single again! hahahahaha Just kidding.
I was actually glad to hear from your post that there are men out there that don't really mind asking a woman out with a kid/kids. That's taking on a lot, and I respect that you asked her at all.
Me
Posted by Tabßitha on October 26, 2002, at 20:49:40
In reply to You and Tabitha are probably right.... » jay, posted by SandraDee on October 26, 2002, at 20:02:03
SandraDee, you've got the perfect friend zone situation going. He probably won't make a serious move as long as you're married, and you get to enjoy the friendship. If he makes a move and you reject him, he'll just respect you more. Friend zone is a losing situation for a single girl. Here's my sad story.
I had a male friend for about 3 years. I knew he was interested, and I wasn't, but he was respecting my limits. He had this same type of pseudo-friend relationship with several other women. Then last year, it almost seemed like we were clicking. For a second he looked almost attractive. My therapist told me that sometimes, when a relationship deepens, an attraction can develop where it did not exist previously. Can it be? I wondered. Could my friend become a boyfriend? Although this had never worked for me before, I decided to try to explore the possibility of romance. Didn't work at all-- we did not in fact click, my little flicker of attraction died almost instantly, and simultaneously, he latched onto me for dear life, making himself even less attractive.
After a few weeks, I tried to gently disengage, but he wasn't hearing me at all, ... so I uttered the fatal words "I'm just not attracted to you", along with lots of reassurances of how much I valued his friendship and wanted to go back to the way things had been. Never heard from him again. I lost my long-term "friend" instantly, which was kind of a blow.
Jay, let this be a cautionary tale. Be glad this woman was straight with you early on, and be glad you took the hint and moved on. Pseudo-Friend zone is bad, from either side.
Posted by SandraDee on October 26, 2002, at 21:03:57
In reply to Re: pseudo-friend zone » SandraDee, posted by Tabßitha on October 26, 2002, at 20:49:40
And I don't want to turn this thread on ME... but no situation where a married woman is attracted to a single, available, attractive man (that calls you his soul mate) is perfect. It's far from it. It just makes me wonder more and more "what if"... as if I didn't have enough of that already without him in my life. I sometimes wish he would make a move, so I could feel a little something... it would be nice to feel wanted, is all. I can't do like Jay does and say "his loss" or feel like I'm worthy when all I am is an at home mom. Yea yea, I know that's great, but it's not really - I don't feel like I bring anything to this family - even when I'm told (by outsiders of our family) that I have one of the most important jobs - it sure doesn't feel like it. So funny how Jay can want what I have (a lover and/or family) and sometimes I just long to be responsible for nobody else but myself. Sometimes you can be in a relationship and feel just as lonely.
Me
Posted by Tabßitha on October 26, 2002, at 23:33:02
In reply to I wouldn't say it's perfect... » Tabßitha, posted by SandraDee on October 26, 2002, at 21:03:57
Uh-oh, I didn't realize the attraction was mutual. That is a tricky situation. I remember being very lonely when I was married.
OK, SandraDee, you've reminded me to be grateful for my sometimes lonely solitude.
Posted by jay on October 27, 2002, at 0:04:10
In reply to Re: Women/Womin and My Problems..boohooo!! everyone!, posted by Tabßitha on October 26, 2002, at 15:49:27
Well... I honestly don't think I misinterpreted anything. I am not trying to brag or sound cocky, but I am a social worker, and have pretty fine-tuned social skills. It doesn't make me a 'mind reader', but it gives me (usually) fairly good judgement as how to go about *any* relationship. One interesting, and sad thing I guess, is that many folks I deal with who have mental health problems, often (not always) have issues pertaining to a relationship. I do feel a bit proud, I guess that is the word, that I was able to assist many through some of these very deep and dark times, especially ones which involve either the death of a romantic partner or child, and the ones who been either abused or cheated on in a relationship. (BTW...we are working on some new definitions of abuse...and 'cheating' is finding it's way into this definition.)
OK..about my situation. I don't think there was anything wrong in what I read from her. I have a number of female 'friends'...and in fact any 'date' starts off as a friendship for me. My problem was the fact she emphasized 'friends' about 10 times in a few minute period. I just *assumed* that is what it would be....as most people I know do. It was insulting, and she mind as well told me she thought I was an ugly geek who she would *never* consider going out with. If she had use some more 'tactful' language...then fine.
The other thing is, I work in med sized office building. I am a social worker with our provincial government. She works in the restaurant on our building's main floor. I NEVER put myself above her, even if I make 5 times as much money as she does, and she is treating me like this? She knows where I work, and what I do, helping the poor and homeless. Her last boyfriend was this idiot who works in the same restaurant, and I have talked to him before...and man I shake my head!
Anyhow...that is my side of the story. I disagree that there is no big boundary between 'romantic' and 'friendship' interest. I think those 'traps' you listed are called games, and that is fine when you are 18, but as a grown adult, I think they are rather silly. One CAN easily lead to the other, and often over time, they do. If people would come down to earth and start losing their fantasies about going out with Hollywood-look-a-like's, many of us would be better off. That's my rant...I'm stickin' to it. :-)
Thanks..
JayWell... I honestly don't think I misinterpreted anything. I am not trying to brag or sound cocky, but I am a social worker, and have pretty fine-tuned social skills. It doesn't make me a 'mind reader', but it gives me (usually) fairly good judgement as how to go about *any* relationship. One interesting, and sad thing I guess, is that many folks I deal with who have mental health problems, often (not always) have issues pertaining to a relationship. I do feel a bit proud, I guess that is the word, that I was able to assist many through some of these very deep and dark times, especially ones which involve either the death of a romantic partner or child, and the ones who been either abused or cheated on in a relationship. (BTW...we are working on some new definitions of abuse...and 'cheating' is finding it's way into this definition.)OK..about my situation. I don't think there was anything wrong in what I read from her. I have a number of female 'friends'...and in fact any 'date' starts off as a friendship for me. My problem was the fact she emphasized 'friends' about 10 times in a few minute period. I just *assumed* that is what it would be....as most people I know do. It was insulting, and she mind as well told me she thought I was an ugly geek who she would *never* consider going out with. If she had use some more 'tactful' language...then fine.
The other thing is, I work in med sized office building. I am a social worker with our provincial government. She works in the restaurant on our building's main floor. I NEVER put myself above her, even if I make 5 times as much money as she does, and she is treating me like this? She knows where I work, and what I do, helping the poor and homeless. Her last boyfriend was this idiot who works in the same restaurant, and I have talked to him before...and man I shake my head!
Anyhow...that is my side of the story. I disagree that there is no big boundary between 'romantic' and 'friendship' interest. I think those 'traps' you listed are called games, and that is fine when you are 18, but as a grown adult, I think they are rather silly. One CAN easily lead to the other, and often over time, they do. If people would come down to earth and start losing their fantasies about going out with Hollywood-look-a-like's, many of us would be better off. That's my rant...I'm stickin' to it. :-)
Thanks..
Jay
Posted by jay on October 27, 2002, at 0:22:41
In reply to Re: pseudo-friend zone » SandraDee, posted by Tabßitha on October 26, 2002, at 20:49:40
Been there...did it..got the t-shirt. :-) To be honest, I find trivializing things is very counter-productive. As a friend of mine said.."If you want a best friend 24-7...get a dog." There will ALWAYS be imperfections, and people MUST deal with this in themselves and with others. To try and play a "well..I sorta like you...naaa..no I don't" line is like playing games, and I am sorry, but I am just being honest. I also think many today are still dearly afraid of commitment. I was in a relationship for about 4 years, lost my girlfriend in a car accident and our child had been born stillborn. Yes, it hurts like hell, but, I *would* do it all over again. I am actually hoping to 'start all over' again.My point being..if anybody has been hurt..well I can certainly count myself in. I don't really know what to make of your story. It sounds like you and he where walking on eggshells, and I think that can only lead to further danger. Make the case you either want something or not. We have to remember it is other peoples emotions we are toying with, and we must take responsibility for that.
Anyways..sorry..that's just how I feel.
Jay
> SandraDee, you've got the perfect friend zone situation going. He probably won't make a serious move as long as you're married, and you get to enjoy the friendship. If he makes a move and you reject him, he'll just respect you more. Friend zone is a losing situation for a single girl. Here's my sad story.
>
> I had a male friend for about 3 years. I knew he was interested, and I wasn't, but he was respecting my limits. He had this same type of pseudo-friend relationship with several other women. Then last year, it almost seemed like we were clicking. For a second he looked almost attractive. My therapist told me that sometimes, when a relationship deepens, an attraction can develop where it did not exist previously. Can it be? I wondered. Could my friend become a boyfriend? Although this had never worked for me before, I decided to try to explore the possibility of romance. Didn't work at all-- we did not in fact click, my little flicker of attraction died almost instantly, and simultaneously, he latched onto me for dear life, making himself even less attractive.
>
> After a few weeks, I tried to gently disengage, but he wasn't hearing me at all, ... so I uttered the fatal words "I'm just not attracted to you", along with lots of reassurances of how much I valued his friendship and wanted to go back to the way things had been. Never heard from him again. I lost my long-term "friend" instantly, which was kind of a blow.
>
> Jay, let this be a cautionary tale. Be glad this woman was straight with you early on, and be glad you took the hint and moved on. Pseudo-Friend zone is bad, from either side.
Posted by Tabßitha on October 27, 2002, at 1:53:28
In reply to Re: pseudo-friend zone..responsibility!! » Tabßitha, posted by jay on October 27, 2002, at 0:22:41
Jay, are you saying I toyed with my friend's emotions? I can't quite tell. Anyway, I didn't toy with him. I was up-front about my (lack of) feelings, and he was a grownup.
I was just trying to make a point about the perils of male/female friendship. Let me try again. I think male/female friendship is more risky for men, since they generally don't pursue friendship with a woman unless they're attracted to her. Women, on the other hand, are more likely to accept friendship from men they're not attracted to. Yes, she might start as a friend and then fall in love, I just think that's a risky approach for a guy.
Posted by ROO on October 28, 2002, at 8:18:54
In reply to Re: pseudo-friend zone..responsibility!!, posted by Tabßitha on October 27, 2002, at 1:53:28
Posted by jay on October 28, 2002, at 15:19:24
In reply to Re: How do you look up this famous picture? (nm), posted by ROO on October 28, 2002, at 8:18:54
Hi:
Well...if you dare...you can find my ugly mug at:
http://profiles.yahoo.com/jay_ghostrider Be warned, though!..heh.Jay
Posted by jay on October 28, 2002, at 15:42:17
In reply to Re: pseudo-friend zone..responsibility!!, posted by Tabßitha on October 27, 2002, at 1:53:28
Well, no I wasn't saying you where, or on purpose, toying with your friends emotions, but I think we *all* play some pretty 'wicked' games (even if we don't know it) at times. I mean, rather then hanging around someone and doing the ambiguous on/off again thing, I find it best just to axe *any* type of relationship like this rather then torcher each other. It just ends up becoming some kind of histrionic soap opera. Then you and they are free to move on. Any other way just seems cruel. That's my opinion anyways, and it has worked well for me, and kept myself and others from falling to pieces and ending up in the hospital over a failed relationship.
I also think it is quite a stereotype to think that men often mistake friendship with a women for something more. Where are these 'rules' that men can/should only ask out certain women? That is like the Caste system in India, where only certain people of a certain class can do certain jobs. There are no clear-cut boundaries, and *anything* is game. I think it is (and no..I am not saying you are!) snobbish of some people to think they have some sort of power to presume only 'certain' people have some kind of right to ask you out on a date. It sounds kind of *very* exclusive and elitist.
Anyhow..just IMHO..don't kill me for it, ok? (Hehee.)
Jay
Posted by Dr.Eamerz on October 28, 2002, at 15:51:36
In reply to Re: How do you look up this picture? My ugly mug.. » ROO, posted by jay on October 28, 2002, at 15:19:24
You ain't ugly... unusual but tasty
Posted by Dr.Eamerz on October 28, 2002, at 16:27:45
In reply to Re: How do you look up this picture? My ugly mug.. » jay, posted by Dr.Eamerz on October 28, 2002, at 15:51:36
I'm looking like an ugly old trout with a hint of hamster.
Posted by jay on October 28, 2002, at 17:11:05
In reply to Re: How do you look up this picture? My ugly mug.. » jay, posted by Dr.Eamerz on October 28, 2002, at 15:51:36
>
> You ain't ugly... unusual but tastyWell..ummm...thank you so much..<blush>..I guess 'unusual' ain't so bad? :-) Ummm..where abouts do you live anyways, dreamer? ;-)
Jay
Posted by jay on October 28, 2002, at 17:15:07
In reply to Re: pseudo-friend zone..responsibility!!, posted by Tabßitha on October 27, 2002, at 1:53:28
Please note I am honestly not trying to start an argument or anything like that. I am just kinda hurt right now...a wounded animal. "Human..all to human.." as our pal Nietzsche said.Jay :-(
Posted by Dr.Eamerz on October 28, 2002, at 18:27:16
In reply to Re: How do you look up this picture? My ugly mug.. » Dr.Eamerz, posted by jay on October 28, 2002, at 17:11:05
Jaybabes...I'm over the sea just outside london
Posted by Tabßitha on October 29, 2002, at 0:54:48
In reply to Re: How do you look ? , posted by Dr.Eamerz on October 28, 2002, at 16:27:45
>
> I'm looking like an ugly old trout with a hint of hamster.Silvery trouts are lovely. And hamsters? Ooooh, the cuddly cuteness of those cheeks and little pink feet.
Posted by jay on October 29, 2002, at 1:34:40
In reply to does yoghurt hurt whilst doing yoga » jay, posted by Dr.Eamerz on October 28, 2002, at 18:27:16
Hey..I am Canadian and trout are *beautiful*..;-)
Me also loves those sweet little pink things like Hammy. (Amongst other things...ahheeemm..;-)Jay
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