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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on February 22, 2011, at 15:20:23
I actually had a talk with my therapist about the fact that I didn't feel so much need for him lately. That something had shifted. I didn't think of calling him when something went wrong.
I told him I thought our positions, with regard to each other, had changed. That he felt more like a therapist/friend than a therapist/mommy or a therapist/father. And that I didn't need a therapist/friend.
He asked why I said I no longer felt safe with him, and I told him I felt very safe with him. Safer than I ever had. I knew he liked me, and cared about me. But that I wasn't feeling like I was safe from the world in his office, which was a different thing altogether.
I don't think he got it. He thought I should be happy about the shift in the dynamics bringing therapy to a new level. He doesn't understand that the shift in dynamics means an end to therapy. He was trying to explain that I didn't need to leave. I was trying to explain that it had nothing to do with needing to leave or being forced out. It had to do with needing to go to therapy and choosing to go to therapy.
I don't know. Maybe it's not something that can be understood from the outside of my brain.
I don't need a friend. I have lots of friends, and I don't need to pay them to be my friends. I need something different in a therapist.
I need to need him. I need for him to be *big*. I want him to be caring and warm, but the caring and warm of a father to daughter. I can't force that need though.
Growing up is so lonely.
Posted by obsidian on February 22, 2011, at 19:37:24
In reply to I think the weather in h*ll must be chilly, posted by Dinah on February 22, 2011, at 15:20:23
I'm sorry Dinah :-(
Makes me wonder what it took to get there.
Lonely sucks, yes it does.
Posted by Dinah on February 22, 2011, at 20:04:02
In reply to Re: I think the weather in h*ll must be chilly » Dinah, posted by obsidian on February 22, 2011, at 19:37:24
I think it might have been (gasp!) just growing up.
Yuck.
But it also might be that sometimes receiving what you've been wanting isn't so great. He cares about me, he trusts me, and he's been himself with me far more than he ever did before. Nothing terribly inappropriate. Just unguarded perhaps. Using his own way of speaking instead of gearing it to me. I don't think it's precisely self disclosure because he's not disclosing more than he ever did. But it feels different. The boundaries are still there. But the personal in room boundaries are looser than they used to be in often vague ways. Again, nothing inappropriate. Just different.
I reminded him of a time in the last year or so when I told him I felt like our positions with respect to each other were changing. That it was like one of those flip books where one minute we were where we should be in respect to one another, and the next minute my perspective was more level. On the same level. Equal. More side by side and less face to face. It was almost a physical experience and it almost made me dizzy and disoriented. I think maybe it's a continuation of the same thing.
You can't feel safe from the world with an equal, or a friend, or a peer. Or I can't at least.
It might not be so much that he changed but that I did. I always knew that the magic of therapy existed because I embued therapy with magic.
I'd like for him to be committed to help me regain that magic instead of being happy for my progress. Angry or sad would be appropriate. But calm happiness about it just doesn't seem appropriate. I won't be full of *unalloyed* happiness when my son goes away for college. I don't even think I ought to be.
He spent most of the time we spoke admitting he really didn't understand, and conveying the impression that I'm weird. That's not exactly news, I guess.
Posted by Solstice on February 23, 2011, at 12:33:23
In reply to Re: I think the weather in h*ll must be chilly » obsidian, posted by Dinah on February 22, 2011, at 20:04:02
> I think it might have been (gasp!) just growing up.
>
> Yuck.
>
> But it also might be that sometimes receiving what you've been wanting isn't so great. He cares about me, he trusts me, and he's been himself with me far more than he ever did before. Nothing terribly inappropriate. Just unguarded perhaps. Using his own way of speaking instead of gearing it to me. I don't think it's precisely self disclosure because he's not disclosing more than he ever did. But it feels different. The boundaries are still there. But the personal in room boundaries are looser than they used to be in often vague ways. Again, nothing inappropriate. Just different.
>
> I reminded him of a time in the last year or so when I told him I felt like our positions with respect to each other were changing. That it was like one of those flip books where one minute we were where we should be in respect to one another, and the next minute my perspective was more level. On the same level. Equal. More side by side and less face to face. It was almost a physical experience and it almost made me dizzy and disoriented. I think maybe it's a continuation of the same thing.
>
> You can't feel safe from the world with an equal, or a friend, or a peer. Or I can't at least.Dinah.. you have such a brilliantly precise ability to hit the target. I've never thought of it that way, but reading how you put it, I do know what you mean about not feeling safe from the world with an equal.
What you're talking about here is probably exactly what happens in healthy families between parents and children. After they go thru the fits of adolescence and young adulthood.. they end up landing in a spot alongside their parents - much more eye to eye. Of course, during the earlier struggles, they first have to see how abysmally imperfect we are.. and then forgive us for losing our awesome "my dad can beat up your dad" super-powers :-) But in the best of parent & adult-child relationships, parents remain a trusted resource.. where the adult child can still go when they need to know someone's in their corner.. when they need guidance.. stuff like that.
Maybe with our therapists, we can end up more eye-to-eye than when we saw them as our safe fortress... but let them be in the role of 'life-mentor.'
I'll tell ya, this last week or so I've gone thru a miserable crisis in my therapeutic relationship. I've been overlooking and 'excusing' a particular imperfection in my therapist that finally sent me into a crash & burn when it showed up at *the* wrong time.. when after a series of stressors tapped into some profound personal vulnerabilities... and I needed my therapist to be perfectly therapeutic.. and what I got felt therapeutically sloppy.. in part due to those 'looser' in-session standards you referred to. god-awful painful, is all I can say. See T tomorrow evening.. hope to work thru enough of it to balance myself..
Solstice
Posted by Daisym on February 23, 2011, at 13:33:09
In reply to Re: I think the weather in h*ll must be chilly, posted by Solstice on February 23, 2011, at 12:33:23
God-awful painful is a phrase I use a great deal as well when describing theraputic ruptures.
Dinah - I could have written most of what you wrote. I think you summed it up very well - growing up *is* lonely. I think that perhaps this is one of those things that equal rights among sexes has inadvertantly destroyed - the feeling safe in the world because someone is "taking care of you." Men, at one time, protected their wives and were OK with being stronger, etc. Women nurtured their husbands, and were OK with making them feel like king of the castle. The mother/father aspects of relationships, as long as they were kept in check, I think were really good for people.
As I've repaired the giant rupture with my own therapist, I'm very aware that he really isn't magic and that makes me so, so sad. I guess I really didn't realize how much I wanted/needed to close out the world during sessions and feel safe, completely and totally safe, in a way I'd never been. So that worked for a while. But as I've grown, and taken back my own history, I can't drop the world at the door anymore.
We've been trying to talk about goals for my life - what do I want and what makes me happy? I really don't know but I feel very emotional trying to discuss it with him. I want HIM to know what will make me happy and provide the magic answer. He keeps wondering what makes this so hard to talk about. And I think you said it - it feels like the beginning of the end of therapy. I don't "need" him anymore, I'm choosing to go. Which is great, if it was anyone else. It is good to be healthy enough to not need therapy - think of the shoes I could buy?!
*sigh*
We need a whole different Camp Comfort this.
Posted by Solstice on February 23, 2011, at 17:29:33
In reply to Re: I think the weather in h*ll must be chilly, posted by Daisym on February 23, 2011, at 13:33:09
> I guess I really didn't realize how much I wanted/needed to close out the world during sessions and feel safe, completely and totally safe
I still want that even expect that. I'm not sure that the feeling youre describing necessarily goes away after we 'grow up' in therapy. When I am in that room with T - - regardless of where I am with respect to 'growing up' - - I want to feel utterly and absolutely emotionally safe. It's the only way I can be unguarded enough for it to work.
I also need to be able to shift back and forth between my grown up self, and my more dependent-on-therapist self. Parts of me are quite healed and function quite well independent of therapy. But there are some very vulnerable areas that are very deep beyond my ability to fully understand. I need to be able to shift (regress?). I think this kind of thing played a role in my recent therapeutic disaster. I've been pretty 'grown up' in therapy for a good while. Some of those loosey-goosey things Dinah referred to had been happening to my 'frame.' Things like moving apt times, something I say reminding T of some story and relating the story despite it having no relevance to my therapy, and T leaving cell phone on vibrate. Those things didnt get bad enough for it to be a big problem for my grown up self. But over the last month Ive had a convergence of very stressful life circumstances that have put enormous pressure on me.. tapping into fears, insecurities, anxieties. We had been talking about it.. and T is the one who pointed out that my legs getting wobbly was to be expected considering the extraordinary stress.
Then some things happened that pulled the rug out from under me, and I shifted.. I guess back to a less sturdy self.. a much more fragile ego. T did not shift with me, and a bunch of different things that T has gotten so casual about took place and the whole thing overwhelmed me beyond my capacity to manage. It tapped into some very, very deep wounds.. and I wish to goodness my T had not trampled on that place with the cleats of sloppy therapeutic practices.
Anyway.. I want to feel safe.. regardless of how grown up I might be.
Solstice
Posted by Dinah on February 23, 2011, at 19:10:20
In reply to Re: I think the weather in h*ll must be chilly, posted by Solstice on February 23, 2011, at 17:29:33
Some of those blurry boundaries can make us feel unsafe within the therapy room. I don't think any of those has happened to me recently, but I have definitely experienced things from time to time that have left me feeling that I didn't have his attention and care. Cell phone on vibrate being one of those things. (Falling asleep the obvious other.)
My therapist has been pretty good at listening to my concerns and (eventually) correcting them. He hasn't even been falling asleep lately as he's been losing a fair amount of weight and exercising more. My biggest issue with *him* at the moment is that he's a bit rah-rah with the diet and exercise topic. Speaking with the zeal of the newly converted. Zeal never works well with me...
What has been his response to your concerns? Have you frankly told him that while these things may be less than ideal at all times, they can be very damaging occasionally? And that this is a time for him to put his therapist hat on a bit more firmly?
I'm sorry your life is stressful right now. I hope it gets better.
Hmmm... that may be an issue with me right now. I've handled some recent issues with ease, but my pattern is that I can handle short term stress well enough. I just can't sustain it for long periods of time without meltdowns. There may be always some periods of time when I *might* need him. As long as I see him in a parental role.
Posted by Dinah on February 23, 2011, at 19:22:15
In reply to Re: I think the weather in h*ll must be chilly, posted by Daisym on February 23, 2011, at 13:33:09
Did you ever think you'd see the day? From the Dinah who swore to wrap myself around his legs like a cartoon character should he ever try to leave? He always swore I'd likely be the one who left him, and I thought he was out of his mind.
I think you truly understand the issue as I do. What you say about the roles in marriage is so true. Having someone taking care of me, even as I support and nurtured them, has always been very important to me. Even if that person was far from perfect. Even if I had to take care of them in many ways. My girlish dreams were always of marrying a much older man, although in the end I married in as much a true partnership as ever could be between two very different persons. My husband and I are within two months of each other in age, and very similar in many ways. We've always faced the world together. My father probably played the role of protector, even as I took care of him.
I can't help but feel I still do need that in my life, and am undecided whether my image of my therapist in the role is faltering because of something to do with him or something to do with me.
It does seem like a good thing, or rather that it should be a good thing. Not many people understand the real losses that come with growth, or how they can seem far greater than the gains. I get the sense that you truly do.
I do wish I could explain it to my therapist. Would you mind if I showed him your post? Sometimes he understands the words of others better than he understands my own. It would all be much better if he would mourn it instead of being so darn positive.
Posted by Solstice on February 24, 2011, at 7:23:14
In reply to Re: I think the weather in h*ll must be chilly » Solstice, posted by Dinah on February 23, 2011, at 19:10:20
> My therapist has been pretty good at listening to my concerns and (eventually) correcting them. He hasn't even been falling asleep lately as he's been losing a fair amount of weight and exercising more. My biggest issue with *him* at the moment is that he's a bit rah-rah with the diet and exercise topic. Speaking with the zeal of the newly converted. Zeal never works well with me...
I hate that kind of zeal.. or maybe I just hate the know-it-all pushiness it's soaked in if it's directed at me.
> What has been his response to your concerns?Apology.. but with excuses. The excuses cut to the core.
> Have you frankly told him that while these things may be less than ideal at all times,:) yeah.. and I got counter-responses pointing out how 'accomodating' T is of me at times. Like I'm supposed to overlook loosey-goosey professional standards that undermine the environment I need.. since at times T provides latitude when its therapeutic to do so.
> they can be very damaging occasionally?This will probably come up this evening. I vascillate between feeling deeply hurt.. to feeling angry as a bull. I don't know whether to cry or yell. It makes me so angry that I'm even having to deal with it.. especially at a time when life itself has been destabilizing. I didn't need therapy to add to it.
> And that this is a time for him to put his therapist hat on a bit more firmly?We actually had that conversation a few times regarding apt. times being moved. I didn't make the connection.. it was T who pointed out that the apt times being flexible might have been behind whatever I was messed up over at the time.
It's just gonna make me angry to hear any more excuses for what is inexcuseable. I'll tell you the one I REALLY hate. "I can guarantee you that I will disappoint you again." I think I'm generally very accommodating of occasional small stuff. But when the ocassional small stuff becomes the rule, that kind of comment sounds like T is just setting it up to have all the latitude in the world to not mind the store. It just makes me angry.. and I don't want to have to deal with it right now.
Solstice
Posted by Daisym on February 24, 2011, at 12:10:58
In reply to Re: I think the weather in h*ll must be chilly » Solstice, posted by Dinah on February 23, 2011, at 19:10:20
>>>>Did you ever think you'd see the day? From the Dinah who swore to wrap myself around his legs like a cartoon character should he ever try to leave? He always swore I'd likely be the one who left him, and I thought he was out of his mind.
<<<<I think we always expect something for others different than they expect for themselves - just cause as a species we are pretty smug. But as much as it s*cks, it is better to know you feel (more) ready to survive it, being your choice - than you would otherwise. Kind of like when a parent dies, I think. The anticipation is such that we just can't fathom living through it, and yet we do. I'm not suggesting it is pleasant, just that we are much more capable sometimes than we think.
>>>>I think you truly understand the issue as I do. What you say about the roles in marriage is so true. Having someone taking care of me, even as I support and nurtured them, has always been very important to me. Even if that person was far from perfect. Even if I had to take care of them in many ways. My girlish dreams were always of marrying a much older man, although in the end I married in as much a true partnership as ever could be between two very different persons. My husband and I are within two months of each other in age, and very similar in many ways. We've always faced the world together. My father probably played the role of protector, even as I took care of him.
<<<<<I've never had this in any real way. So I think this is a huge fantasy for me. When I'm really regressed, I find myself furious at my therapist for not having been there to protect me.
>>>>>I can't help but feel I still do need that in my life, and am undecided whether my image of my therapist in the role is faltering because of something to do with him or something to do with me.
<<<<<<It's probably both, don't you think? Reality invades and we *know* that the security we seek isn't all encompassing - not magic as you said. I think there are biological underpinnings too - the anxiety of therapy causes a chemical cascade in the brain and the calming opiates that get released are "addictive" - consider infant/mother attachment and how the mom's nearness is soothing to the baby. Over time, the brain does not react in the same way due to familiarity and it takes novelty (good or bad) to create the anxiety/soothing cycle. If something gigantic happened, he would probably be able to provide the soothing you need, but the day-to-day anxiety you feel you've learned to self-sooth around (whether you know it or not). So just having a session isn't as "magical" as it used to be - different chemical response. I'm curious if you still get sleepy - needing to "forget" like you used to?
>>>>It does seem like a good thing, or rather that it should be a good thing. Not many people understand the real losses that come with growth, or how they can seem far greater than the gains. I get the sense that you truly do.
<<<<I feel this way about my children growing up too. They are all great and doing very well - but the loss for me is huge. I tell myself all the time - "this is what is supposed to happen" but the grief is very real and very painful. And the more "self-contained" we get, the more alone we are intra-psychicly. That is not to say that we can't learn inter-dependence, but existentially - we are alone. I recently said to my therapist, "I hate when people say, "we all die alone." I believe that we all die with God. It is the living that is lonely often. I'm working on trying to use my faith to lesson this feeling.""
>>>I do wish I could explain it to my therapist. Would you mind if I showed him your post? Sometimes he understands the words of others better than he understands my own. It would all be much better if he would mourn it instead of being so darn positive.
<<<Of course. Anytime. This is one area that my therapist seems to understand completely. I've recently cut back on a session - for lots of reason. But it is a time slot I've had for years. I pretty much refuse to talk about it, because it has to be this way, but it helped when my therapist said to me, "it throws me, that you aren't here. It is a hole in my day, because at 3pm, you are supposed to be here. I have to stop and remember why you aren't." That made me feel like more than patient #10. And he always acknowledges the difficulties of ending a deep relationship like long-term therapy. But he never says we won't. Supposedly it is my choice but realities like age, possible illness -- life in general, I guess, are background noise that I can't ignore.
If I only get to use the magic wand 1x - this is what I would change.
Posted by Daisym on February 24, 2011, at 12:27:27
In reply to Re: I think the weather in h*ll must be chilly, posted by Solstice on February 24, 2011, at 7:23:14
>>>It's just gonna make me angry to hear any more excuses for what is inexcuseable. I'll tell you the one I REALLY hate. "I can guarantee you that I will disappoint you again."
<<<Several times over the past few months my therapist has said, "maybe it is good that this has happened. It opens up other things for us to talk about." I've asked him to stop saying that - it has been a really painful process for me to work back from the rupture and when he tells me how fallible he is, I get nervous. I need him to have a plan, to steer the ship, to at least pretend like he is knows what we are doing. There are times in therapy when I admire his ability to be self-deprecating. But not when I'm feeling vulnerable and scared - regression needs strong containment.
I think as we get more sophisticated about our own therapies, and the alliance is really strong, our therapists sometimes over-estimate our ability to tolerate certain things or take in certain concepts. I fall apart when my therapist treats me like most of the world does - someone completely in charge of herself and everything around her. I've questioned whether I'm "proving" to him that I need him and he sometimes agrees. But he and I have also talked about how I sometimes have him carry my feelings, which then I read as his and he doesn't feel safe - ie I'm not safe within myself. It gets really complicated when you are really connected.
I hope tonight is both angry and tearful. There is a lot here and you need to get reconnected and "find" your therapist again. And he needs to hear you and remember that his role for you right now is support and strength, not reality checks. Just like when a mother says, "we'll all be fine" even if she herself doesn't believe it yet.
Posted by Solstice on February 24, 2011, at 16:06:20
In reply to Re: I think the weather in h*ll must be chilly » Solstice, posted by Daisym on February 24, 2011, at 12:27:27
> >>>It's just gonna make me angry to hear any more excuses for what is inexcuseable. I'll tell you the one I REALLY hate. "I can guarantee you that I will disappoint you again."
>
> <<<Several times over the past few months my therapist has said, "maybe it is good that this has happened. It opens up other things for us to talk about." I've asked him to stop saying that - it has been a really painful process for me to work back from the rupture and when he tells me how fallible he is, I get nervous. I need him to have a plan, to steer the ship, to at least pretend like he is knows what we are doing. There are times in therapy when I admire his ability to be self-deprecating. But not when I'm feeling vulnerable and scared - regression needs strong containment.Hi Daisy..
I've really appreciated your input (and Dinah's too). I hadn't thought of it that way, but you're right. Regression needs to be safe, and it sure as hell needs to be contained by something consistent and stable.. with as little variability as possible.
> I think as we get more sophisticated about our own therapies, and the alliance is really strong, our therapists sometimes over-estimate our ability to tolerate certain things or take in certain concepts. I fall apart when my therapist treats me like most of the world does - someone completely in charge of herself and everything around her. I've questioned whether I'm "proving" to him that I need him and he sometimes agrees. But he and I have also talked about how I sometimes have him carry my feelings, which then I read as his and he doesn't feel safe - ie I'm not safe within myself. It gets really complicated when you are really connected.
>
> I hope tonight is both angry and tearful. There is a lot here and you need to get reconnected and "find" your therapist again. And he needs to hear you and remember that his role for you right now is support and strength, not reality checks. Just like when a mother says, "we'll all be fine" even if she herself doesn't believe it yet.
>
I wish I knew what I needed. My insides are just filled with knots. I think I'm terrified at the vulnerability I feel. What I really want to do is pull away and refuse to play marbles. I want to cross my arms in a huff and push T away. I don't want to trust anything. I want to shut down my need for this relationship. But if I do that.. then where do I go?I leave in an hour.. and I feel sick to my stomach.
Solstice
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2011, at 13:58:19
In reply to Re: I think the weather in h*ll must be chilly, posted by Solstice on February 24, 2011, at 16:06:20
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2011, at 14:40:01
In reply to Re: I think the weather in h*ll must be chilly » Dinah, posted by Daisym on February 24, 2011, at 12:10:58
<<<<<<It's probably both, don't you think? Reality invades and we *know* that the security we seek isn't all encompassing - not magic as you said. I think there are biological underpinnings too - the anxiety of therapy causes a chemical cascade in the brain and the calming opiates that get released are "addictive" - consider infant/mother attachment and how the mom's nearness is soothing to the baby. Over time, the brain does not react in the same way due to familiarity and it takes novelty (good or bad) to create the anxiety/soothing cycle. If something gigantic happened, he would probably be able to provide the soothing you need, but the day-to-day anxiety you feel you've learned to self-sooth around (whether you know it or not). So just having a session isn't as "magical" as it used to be - different chemical response. I'm curious if you still get sleepy - needing to "forget" like you used to?
I think that's it! I was thinking after I made these posts that I have such a poor memory of different feeling states. Just a couple of months ago I needed him quite a bit. But you're right. The ordinary anxiety I have learned to self soothe. I think that thinking of it this way may go a long way to easing my confusion at the shift.
Oddly enough I do still feel sleepy after most sessions. Even if they weren't terribly upsetting. I think it has something to do with allowing my feeling self to surface. It requires some transition state back to rational me.
<<< I pretty much refuse to talk about it, because it has to be this way, but it helped when my therapist said to me, "it throws me, that you aren't here. It is a hole in my day, because at 3pm, you are supposed to be here. I have to stop and remember why you aren't." That made me feel like more than patient #10. And he always acknowledges the difficulties of ending a deep relationship like long-term therapy. But he never says we won't. Supposedly it is my choice but realities like age, possible illness -- life in general, I guess, are background noise that I can't ignore.
Your therapist is so terrific. :)
My therapist was groggy again today. I asked him if he needed a snack, and he took it and did wake up. Still, I was upset and tearful. As I left, he asked if I'd like a hug and he told me that he cares for me and enjoys seeing me. I told him I knew that. I truly do. Which is nice, but perhaps not sufficient.
I wonder how much my feelings of sadness and low self worth over his falling asleep has to do with my change in feelings. Although he had that problem for all the fifteen years I've seen him.
I've promised to try to speak louder and he's promised to remember to ask me to speak louder. I'm not sure if that will help, or just fill me with resentment.
> If I only get to use the magic wand 1x - this is what I would change.
Yes. I would wish that nothing jeopardize what I had. Not even me.
This is the end of the thread.
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