![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by workinprogress on November 7, 2010, at 1:11:55
Hey all. I have a question, particularly for those who have been in therapy for a long time..
I've been in therapy for over 3 years pretty intensely. I started once a week, then twice, then three times, then finally went all in and just see her most days... she only works 4 days a week. The reason for adding the days was intense struggle over attachment, that's ongoing. I've had such struggle attaching and not being afraid of her going away. From somewhere mid-first year to now, she's been a worm in my head. My most important times are with her. I look forward to our sessions more than anything else. I struggle with weekends (I'm single) because of the three days of not seeing her. It's a big deal for me to figure out how I'll get through the weekend. Much of my worry about getting through the weekend is worry about needing/missing/yearning for her. I beat myself up over it. I'm just now finally getting to a point where I'm ok with needing her. Mostly. But I still get freaked out and still start thinking self-hating things about myself and worry she won't like me (because I think she feels them too). I know that's dysfunctional thinking, so I can correct the thinking, but I'm still *feeling* uneasy and unsure.
Anyway, the other day she said, "I'm available for a secure attachment... I'm here and available and I'm not going anywhere. The only thing that stands in the way is your worry/fear that I'm not/that I'll go away or reject you". That seems so simple. And I so want it. But I can't seem to do it. She'd say it just takes time, but it's so frustrating.
I guess what I'm looking for from you is guidance/reassurance that it can happen. Daisy, Dinah, and Lucie, you all seem to have achieved some level of security in your relationships with your therapists. Did you have a similar struggle? I so so want to attach and settle in and get comfortable. I want nothing more than that, and I don't want to be afraid (in my head I know I shouldn't be). Can you offer any words of advice? Can you share your experience/journey in this realm? I'm just feeling really stuck and alone and I'm hoping you all can offer me some solace.
Does this make any sense?
Anything you can offer would be so appreciated...
Thanks
WIP
Posted by Solstice on November 7, 2010, at 7:33:31
In reply to ? for long term therapy folks... Dinah, Lucie, etc, posted by workinprogress on November 7, 2010, at 1:11:55
Hi WIP -
What a cool thing to explore. And what a VERY cool thing for your T to say. Attachment. For those of us who are 'attachment-challenged' just the word itself can be frightful! When my T brought it up (and that word was brought up early on, and regularly thereafter), I winced every time for the first 3 years.
No doubt you've seen all the previous stuff on here about what's been written about Attachment Theory and different attachment styles... which we develop based on what kind of attachment we were provided very early in our lives.
I wasn't offered safe attachment. My parents were not physically abusive. And they are good people. They just weren't available. Physically available, yes. Emotionally/spiritually/intellectually/personally available, no. So as a child, when I tried to attach with the deep longing all children have to attach, nothing was there. Or it would appear to be there (like a mirage), which when I'd touch it with all the innocent hope a young heart can muster, it would evaporate. No where to take my hurts, my need for affinity, my hopes & dreams, no parental hands to safely hold my young affection, my young image of myself as worth attaching to.
Your attachment struggle seems to be a fear of people you attach to abandoning you? Mine was a fear of attachment itself.
My reaction to my early expriences with attachment was to simply not believe attachment was possible. Or real. Or that maybe there was something wrong with me that made my early attachment figures recoil. So in therapy, when after several months my therapist said something (totally shocking to me) like "Solstice, I want us to talk about your attachment to me" - let me tell you - I must have turned white as a sheet just hearing those words put together. The very concept was intensely frightening to me. My insides froze. The intimacy of T's suggestion was overwhelming for me to even consider. Any awareness I had of a need to attach had always brought shame. What created an especially acute challenge for me was that I had apparently attached to a previous therapist.. with desperate abandon. But he did not tend to the relationship. He had blind spots, didn't monitor his own counter-transference. He got defensive when there were ruptures in the relationship. For that attachment to fail like it did was my undoing. So my current therapist had a real project, for sure.
My T talked about attachment on a regular (but not constant) basis. Anytime something came up that made it appropriate to bring up, T never missed the opportunity. Explored my impressions of my attachment to people in my life. And said pretty much the same thing yours said.. "I am here for you to attach to me. I will be your 'base.' It will be good for you to attach to me. I will not leave you."
The process itself probably took more than three years before *I* felt securely attached. I'd say it's felt very secure to me during the last six months or so. It's a lot easier to understand the process in retrospect. I was afraid to depend on anyone. Afraid to rely on T. I would go thru this thing of being in pain about something and, of course, therapy was my safe place to be in pain. So I would do this dance of attaching to cope with a painful experience, then (inside myself) running away from the feeling of attachment as soon as I could. I think it took a LOT of my unconscious testing of the relationship. One time T called it a "love test" and I nearly passed out :) My T did not overwhelm me by non-stop pushing the concept on me, but my threshhold was so low that T bringing it up once every 12 sessions was a LOT for me. Thing is though, that the ever-present-ness of it was good for me (much as I winced). In an odd sort of way there were periodic things that happened where I sensed a vulnerability in my T that seemed to help move me toward attachment. And T would periodically say something that, because I was SO afraid of being attached, sounded so incredibly intimate to me that it would rattle me. Not because there was anything wrong with what T was doing - but because of my deep issues with attachment, and then retraumatization by the previous therapist. Hearing T describe something about our relationship in intimate language decreased my "run" threshhold, I guess. Here's an example: I can text my T at any time, but have agreed to not expect a response. It helps me to in-the-moment tell T something that's plaguing me. So I was feeling despair about something, and texted T about it. It was after a good period of relative calm. It must have been at the end of the week, because T contacted me and said "I want to meet with you Sunday at 2, can you be there?" We takled a little bit, and I was okay enough. When we met, I said I was glad (but surprised) that T was able to offer this opportunity on a Sunday. T's response: "I know you said you were ok, but after hearing the despair in your text, I needed to put my eyes on you to make sure you are ok." The "I needed to put my eyes on you" was profoundly intimate to a parched child's heart. Events like that were therapeutically pivotal in opening the door of possibility of attachment for me. If T could "need" something with me that I considered intimate, then maybe I could 'let' myself attach. Maybe this wouldn't be like trying to attach to a porcupine or oil-slicked pan. It's almost like those kinds of things attached to me, and I could close my eyes and pretend I didn't see it - while it burrowed it's way in. That made it tolerable. I didn't have to do the movement, maybe. T did the movement, and I just tolerated it, until I figured out that it was real.. that it would be there again... that it wasn't going ato disappear.
I also think lots of rupture and successful repair is a key part of the process. Over the first three years, I learned that attachment was safe by repeated experiences with T that were somehow or another representative of past unsuccessful attachment experiences. Somewhere around mid-point, T said "Any time you need me, I'll be here.. and I'll know you are getting better when you are too busy to see me." T joked about me calling to cancel appointments because my 'dance card' was getting too full. Some of the comments I heard along the way confused me (because of my broken templates), and I had to work them out with T later. Ruptures would happen because of the way I interpreted things against my background of experience. But each and every time I had a worry about our relationship and confronted it - no matter how I was about it on my end - I don't have a single memory of T ever responding in a defensive manner. To me, that was a crucial piece. I'd encountered so much of it in a previous toxic therapy, that I don't think I'd have done as well as I have if my current T wasn't so gifted in that particular area. (But please don't think my T is 'perfect' - believe me - that's not the case! My T's imprefections just happen to not stress my big triggers - which is why it's such a good fit, I think).
So bit by bit, piece by piece, and at times it looked like it would never happen, but I did develop attachment to T. For a while, I was probably attached but I didn't see it that way. I'd be in therapy, talking about something, and because I felt so safe I was very transparent and responsive to any probing - so I didn't filter myself. So I'd say something and get a "Solstice.. that sounds like attachment to me." Yikes! was my inside reaction. But for the first time in my life, my attempts to attach on a primal level were welcomed.. acknowledged for what they were. I was never 'turned away.' If anything - it's like my T was so convinced that my becoming attached was the Holy Grail of our therapy, that T was always on the lookout for any little thing that could be construed as attachment. Maybe it was that serious eagerness on T's part that created the sense of safety I felt about it. Still, there absolutely were times I was overly sensitive and thought I was being rejected when I wasn't. There were times I misinterpreted things T said or did. But because T required me early on to commit to bringing up ANYthing that disturbed our relationship, those things were always addressed, and that was another factor crucial (for me) to the attachment process. It's almost kinda funny now.. because the notion that I'm attached to my T no longer makes me feel dizzy. I don't think "Yuck!" I don't run and hide. I don't feel shame about it. Or fear. And that feels good. Really, really good.
I'm tempted to apologize for the novel here, but you kinda did ask for it when you asked about people's attachment processes with their therapists!
Hope my story was helpful to you. So many of the stories I've read here have been helpful to me.
Solstice
Posted by annierose on November 7, 2010, at 8:57:17
In reply to ? for long term therapy folks... Dinah, Lucie, etc, posted by workinprogress on November 7, 2010, at 1:11:55
I've been with my therapist for seven years and until last year saw her three times a week, now down to twice (due to insurance and $$ issues). I know exactly how you are feeling in that struggle. And I'm not sure I have words of wisdom that will help because it is still a core issue for me.
My t explains my inner workings as brainwash (she explains it more deeply than that - but that's her simple explanation). It's very hard to trust in the attachment when your past tells you "it's not okay". Also, the more loving feelings I feel towards her increases my uncomfort level when I see her face-to-face. So even after seven years, I still look away most of the time. I do a lot of self-talk, "you are okay, she is on your side" etc. etc.
All that being said, I do find that my relationships outside of the office have strengthened ... or rather I feel more within my own skin and act accordingly. Do you find that any of that has changed for you yet? For instance, being with my parents does not turn me into their scared 7 year old girl anymore. I have dettached from them (which is ironic) in a healthy way since I don't need them or their approval anymore.
My t often suggests that I need to build a healthier internal structure ... that my self-loathing is sabatoging the healthier side of myself. She is big on meditation - which I only enjoy after a yoga class, not alone in my bedroom, although I do "try" on occasion.
I think the intensity of the relationship is an honest outcome of long term multiple sessions a week. Once you begin building more relationships outside of therapy, the intensity will still be there but you won't feel so dependent upon the therapist ... as Dinah puts it ... there are several "legs" on your stool to hold you up.
Not sure if I answered your question or not. I remember telling my t just last week, "I know you are safe and would never intentionally hurt me, but I'm still so uncomfortable here." And my t replied, "that's your fear talking" and when she asks, "what's the worse thing that could happen?" I don't know ... I guess that she could leave me.
It's definitely a long term process to a life long struggle.
Posted by Dinah on November 7, 2010, at 10:40:48
In reply to ? for long term therapy folks... Dinah, Lucie, etc, posted by workinprogress on November 7, 2010, at 1:11:55
Annierose and Solstice said much of what I would say.
I do think it helps feel more secure when you add legs to your support stool. If you balance so much weight on your therapist's support, you're bound to feel very anxious and uncertain about her ability to hold it.
What was most helpful to me in feeling secure sounds so odd that I have to admit that it might not be as helpful to others. I do have strange notions sometimes.
It was most helpful to me to realize what our relationship *wasn't*. It helped me most to really recognize the boundaries of the caring. To recognize that my therapist couldn't be all I wished for him to be. He wasn't my real mother. He cared for me a lot as a client, but not as a family member. That my fantasies of who he was to me were just fantasies. Perfectly nice and ok to keep, as long as I recognized on a gut deep level that they were fantasies. I always recognized that on an intellectual level. Katrina ought to have shredded our relationship. It made very clear to me what the limits were.
Yet strangely, as soon as I truly understood the boundaries and limits, it was far easier to feel the caring within those boundaries and limits. It was easier to appreciate and trust what we did have once I quit wondering what we had. Well, it might have taken a bit of mourning first. And it still smarts when I run smack dab into the boundaries. But I'm not focusing my attention on the boundaries as much as I used to. I'm focusing on what's on the space between us.
It's not all that I've ever wanted, but it's darn nice.
I'm not sure if that would help anyone in the world except me.
Posted by Daisym on November 7, 2010, at 11:24:13
In reply to Re: ? for long term therapy folks... Dinah, Lucie, etc » workinprogress, posted by Dinah on November 7, 2010, at 10:40:48
In a clinical sense, attachment styles that are consistent don't typically get in the way of adult functioning. So being securely attached or avoidantly attached, which it sounds like you were, are personal styles of relating. Attachment is a "system" - and it is so much more complicated than just caring or not caring about someone. And when the system gets activated in intimate relationships, lots of unconscious meanings get made.
I think those of us who have the biggest struggles with "attachment" are actually talking about dependency and needs. Is it safe to depend on this person to get any or all of my needs met? We feel ambiguous because our previous experience has taught us in one way or another that 1) our needs are too big or 2) no one will want to meet them or 3) asking for needs to get met results in hurt or rejection. These end up being deeply ingrained beliefs - core structural beliefs that have to be examined in each and every relationship. Therapy, I think, teaches you to make judgements about safety - this person is safe to need for emotional relating, this one is fun but not safe for deep connection and this one isn't safe at all, etc. The idea that we can form a close relationship with our therapist that will then convert to each and every relationship we have, is a false expectation.
And I think expectation is exactly what we are talking about. Those of us with attachment issues expect people to fail us, or reject us, because we need something. And I also think we often feel deep shame about having emotional needs and wanting them to be met. As someone said, intellectually we get all that, but it is still hard to conquer internally. I know exactly what you mean about the cold fear of naming it. It is in these moments that you wait to be admonished or rejected for being so presumptuous. I often describe it as, "Who do I think I am that I should be allowed to care about this person? Or want or need something from them?" I struggle as much or more with allowing my own feelings as I do with wanting something from him.
After 7 years in therapy, this is still my core struggle. I know I love my therapist, and I know he is OK with that. I know he cares deeply about me. But this is a relationship that is supposed to end, and will end, so the abandonment fear is partially confirmed, without a set date. We hope I'll be ready when the time comes. But needing him feels dangerous because I'm always anticipating the future loss and hurt. And I also think that these feelings for him have opened up a deep and painful awareness of what is missing in my life and always has been. I would say, as a single person, that while I agree about adding more legs to your support stool, it is a lot harder than people think. We are currently working on this very thing in my therapy and it is hard for me to keep front and center that he isn't pushing me to find more relationships because he doesn't want me - but the truth is, those boundaries that Dinah talked about get very painful when you feel very alone. I told my therapist recently that his office, which was my safe place for a long time, has become a sort of agonizing spot of partially getting what I want and need but not getting enough so I feel bad about feeling bad about what I am getting. I know the concept of optimal frustration and perhaps this is it - which is supposed to motivate the patient to seek "real" relationships that can be fully experienced...but I must say it was better in the in-between space of letting therapy meet a lot of those needs and not looking into the future.
I think it might also be a bit of a different struggle when your therapist is a man because adult attraction comes into play as well - but maybe not. But add those feelings to the already complicated little kid feelings and wow - give yourself a break for struggling with this. It is a huge thing to be willing to engage in the struggle at all. And I guess I'd encourage you to not minimize all that you've accomplished just because it is still uncomfortable or gets uncomfortable. I think that is just realistically, part of all relationships.
Posted by Dinah on November 7, 2010, at 13:36:04
In reply to Re: ? for long term therapy folks... Dinah, Lucie, etc, posted by annierose on November 7, 2010, at 8:57:17
> For instance, being with my parents does not turn me into their scared 7 year old girl anymore. I have dettached from them (which is ironic) in a healthy way since I don't need them or their approval anymore.
That is fabulous, Annierose. I can't think of more important work than that for those of us with parents.
Posted by lucielu2 on November 7, 2010, at 19:08:51
In reply to ? for long term therapy folks... Dinah, Lucie, etc, posted by workinprogress on November 7, 2010, at 1:11:55
Hi WIP,
I really hear what you are saying because what you are describing could have been me at year 3. Now in year 8, I finally feel secure in this relationship. My T has been the same throughout, always available, offering of himself, steady and supportive. Always trying to show me that he is reliable and that it is safe to attach. The struggle for me was epic... and all inside me, because my T was always there for me. It took me almost 7 years to reach this point of secure attachment. Perhaps it would have been sooner if I'd been seeing him more than twice a week but he wanted to keep it to that, believing that I wouldn't be able to tolerate the heights of ambivalence that would have created. Now I realize he was right. I think that what you are feeling right now and suffering from is the intense pain of ambivalent attachment - desperately needing it, yet also needing to run in the opposite direction from fears associated with it. The pulls may be equally strong but in opposite directions, immobilizing you in a loop of endless anxiety and longing. I would not have been able to tolerate 3-4 days a week, as you are doing, but your T might be thinking that your longing might win out over your fears if you see her more frequently. The more meetings you have per week, the stronger the transference gets and the more ambivalence you may feel. Where is the balance best for you while you are doing the internal work you need to be doing to be able to attach?
Those were really difficult years for me (years 3-7, I'd say) but it is more than worth it on the other side to finally know what security in a relationship feels like. I'm happy to talk to you more if you want to Babblemail me.
Lucie
Posted by emmanuel98 on November 7, 2010, at 20:08:51
In reply to ? for long term therapy folks... Dinah, Lucie, etc, posted by workinprogress on November 7, 2010, at 1:11:55
Maybe you shouldn't see her so often. When I started seeing my T, he would suggest we cut back if I felt too attached and dependent, so I wouldn't feel more dependent on him. I once told him this was such and intense process and he said, imagine how much more intense it would have been if you saw me twice a week. I agreed. It would have been twice as intense and twice as painful. You should have days when you don't see her and work on establishing other attachments and relationships that you can rely on besides her. I don't mean to offend you, but I think four days a week is too much therapy and fosters unhealthy attachment.
Posted by lucielu2 on November 7, 2010, at 20:23:37
In reply to ? for long term therapy folks... Dinah, Lucie, etc, posted by workinprogress on November 7, 2010, at 1:11:55
Another thing, WIP... the struggle about feeling secure in this relationship WAS my therapy. That's why it took so long.
Posted by tetrix on November 7, 2010, at 21:05:04
In reply to ? for long term therapy folks... Dinah, Lucie, etc, posted by workinprogress on November 7, 2010, at 1:11:55
as I read your post it hit me that I don't really know what secure attachement means.
Posted by Daisym on November 7, 2010, at 22:37:31
In reply to Re: ? for long term therapy folks... Dinah, Lucie, etc, posted by emmanuel98 on November 7, 2010, at 20:08:51
I'm going to respectfully disagree. I don't think the frequency of therapy necessarily leads to too much "dependency." I think each person has to find their own comfortable frequency. And I don't think dependency equals attachment.
Therapy that happens 4x a week is very different than 1x a week. Not better or worse but different. Some therapists are comfortable with it and others aren't.
I'm not trying to be difficult. I just have a hard time when we label some therapies as better than others. I think we have so many differet types because there are so many different types of people.
Posted by workinprogress on November 8, 2010, at 0:59:45
In reply to ? for long term therapy folks... Dinah, Lucie, etc, posted by workinprogress on November 7, 2010, at 1:11:55
Hi there. Thank you all for the thoughtful replies! I so appreciate the dialog about this. From what I read here, I thought a little more info might be helpful and I also want to respond to some things. I'm going to do my best to capture it all here, but might add another reply if I missed something. But this is a thanks to all!
So... first of all, my FOO (family of origin). I grew up in a family that sounds similar to yours Solstice... I was taken care of in every tangible way... food, shelter, stuff, attention to education, etc. However, it was a pretty cold environment, very rational, not emotional. I was the black sheep super emotional kid that learned to push back emotions and then I ended up exploding in a crying/screaming meltdown. I was sensitive and moody. And I was repeatedly met with the blank face when turning to my mom for comfort. She just didn't have that instinct. My T and I talk about "the hand" a lot.. as in, "you're too much" and "the hand" went out in a stiff arm, stay away sort of way. Pretty severe emotional neglect....
As for the "stool" I actually have a lot of good relationships and people to talk to... I have two VERY good friends that are well versed in therapy stuff and I talk to them pretty regularly about stuff. I have a good 3 or so other friends that I talk to about real stuff, therapy included, but maybe not as regularly or in as much detail. They are all very supportive of me. But they aren't my T. And, they all have partners and/or children. My T and I agree that this will probably all lessen when I find a partner (and I'm actively looking, but being pretty selective).
One really dominant state for me is to feel really lonely which triggers a childhood feeling memory of being really *alone*, which then triggers some serious self-hate (ie, I must be alone bc I'm unlovable). Someone, I think Daisy, talked about the feeling of being "too much" and that is certainly a dominant feeling for me. Anyway, in these states I so so so LONG/YEARN for my T. It's like I get overwhelmed with feeling and then NEED her and can't get her out of my head. Instead of knowing she's there and our relationship is secure and have her as "a part of me" to rely on in those times, I panic a bit and well, it isn't that soothing secure base yet that I need and long for.
Daisy, I don't know what my attachment is... I don't think it's avoidant, I tend to try really hard to attach, I just can't settle in- my guess has always been disorganized. Not sure though. In my brain/intellectually, I so want it... I cling, do everything I can do to avoid abandonment and well, often it comes from me trying so hard to avoid it. I look for abandonment around every corner, but I certainly don't avoid connecting/trying to attach.
As for the frequency, I think it works for me right now. I love just getting to come in and see her and be safe and soak up all that good love/connection, etc. Annierose, being WITH her isn't at all uncomfortable, it's being WITHOUT her that is so so hard. I really wish I could just jump in her pocket and be with her all the time. Dinah- I so get then giving up the fantasy... I think I have some work to do in that regard. What I don't think is that I'm more dependent on her because I see her more. I think I've actually gotten more comfortable and less anxious for seeing her more. And boy, we get to some fine hairs by having the luxury of the time of really examining all the little stuff that goes on for me and between us. So, the frequency is great for that. I understand that it wouldn't work for a lot of pairs, but it works for us. She's always said I can do whatever works for me. She said maybe you should come in more... and I did and it's been helpful. This struggle would exist either way I think.
And, I've grown a ton in all sorts of ways from the work we've done. I'm just tired- I think I get the sense that you get this Lucie- tired of wanting wanting wanting and not feeling "filled up" or "safe" or "secure". I want to have a weekend when I don't so count the days until I see her. Going to two days wouldn't change that, nor would one or three. It just is.
My T says it's really about time. And that it'll happen when it happens. And that I probably can't feel safe and secure that someone loves and cares about me unconditionally and is safe to attach to when I still feel so hateful about myself sometimes- ie "how could you love me if I'm so awful?" But, I also know that moving past that self-hate is a lot about being securely attached... so, that's feeling like a bit of a conundrum right now. It's certainly a discussion I'm going to bring up.
Thanks again all... lots to think about. Not sure if what I wrote here shed any new light, but I'm enjoying the dialog.
Lucie... I may take you up on talking more... but I have to get to bed now.
xo
WIP
Posted by workinprogress on November 8, 2010, at 1:13:17
In reply to Re: ? for long term therapy folks... Dinah, Lucie, etc, posted by Daisym on November 7, 2010, at 11:24:13
Daisy,
Well, I'm a woman and I'm gay and my therapist is a woman... BUT... in terms of fantasies and such, I feel so small and she is so my MOM. :)
As for the last bit in your post... yes, it is big. A lot of people don't even "go there". So, I know it's a big deal to be brave enough to risk the struggle. And I have accomplished lots:
* I can identify and name feelings (feelings are actually FELT... which I had no concept of)
* I can identify and correct black and white thinking (sometimes!!!)
* I have lots and lots of healthy coping mechanisms to keep me from "flooding" (thinking through my feelings, yoga, breathing, going for a walk, telling myself the feelings will pass like the weather, etc)
* I am aware of and can sometimes stop/correct negative self talk
* I know about differentiation
* I recognize when I'm being a victim/looking for places to be abandoned
* I can sometimes recognize that I am assuming that because I feel a certain way about myself other people must as well (not true)None of that was stuff I could do before... or even had a clue about. They probably seem like simple things listed out here, but for me they are not. I am much more grounded. I am much more aware. And I am much more myself. Hell... I HAVE a self!
This secure attachment stuff is kind of the holy grail... I just want it D*** it!!! ;)
Anyway... enough for now. I have to get to bed so I can get up for my new job tomorrow (I'm taking an hourly job so that I can go back to school- when I was salaried I had more freedom to come and go).
xo
WIP
>
> I think it might also be a bit of a different struggle when your therapist is a man because adult attraction comes into play as well - but maybe not. But add those feelings to the already complicated little kid feelings and wow - give yourself a break for struggling with this. It is a huge thing to be willing to engage in the struggle at all. And I guess I'd encourage you to not minimize all that you've accomplished just because it is still uncomfortable or gets uncomfortable. I think that is just realistically, part of all relationships.
>
Posted by Solstice on November 8, 2010, at 12:10:40
In reply to Thanks all... and some more background..., posted by workinprogress on November 8, 2010, at 0:59:45
Emotinal neglect is profound - and the earlier it starts, the more profound it is. No wonder it's hard to take the attachment you feel when you're with your therapist - with you when you leave.
If you stay with it, and if your therapist tends to the relationship, you will eventually feel the stability of the attachment. You won't wake up one day with it. Rather, it's built piece by piece... experience by experience. Your 4X-week arrangement may be perfect for that. Lots of times to spend accumulating the experinces that will eventually 'settle' in the security you need to feel about it. Please just know that feeling secure about it IS possible. Not only possible - it really will happen. Your therapist is right in that it takes time. How much time is impossible to predict. How it takes place, I think, is mysterious. It's not like you can do something specific to solve the dilemma, and it's not like your therapist can do something specific (that she isn't already doing) to resolve it. I think it's in the staying with it. Also - it's probably (was for me) in you allowing yourself to talk about the pain you're feeling about it during therapy.
There are a lot of different things my T has done along the way that seem to have re-written my earlier attachment template. The security I feel now has been the more recent part of it to develop. It did not develop easily. I do know that my ability to see myself more compassionately is directly linked to experiencing my therapist's warmth and care - extended to me regardless. I can disavow it all I want - but it doesn't go away. I can behave as if I don't 'buy' it, as if I don't even 'see' it... but it's still there. I have worked hard to discount it as 'not real' in order to maintain my familiar "I'm not worth the care of others." I thought I had the perfect, terminal argument: "I pay you to 'care,' so it can't be 'real.'" I hung onto that one for a good while - even said it to T a couple weeks ago. But then what do I do with things like my T tolerating middle-of-the-night texts of distress, where I end up with a morning phone call where I'm hearing Unscheduled care in T's voice? It's like I'm trapped - I cannot escape the reality of the 'care'... the anchor of the attachment embedded in rock... and I'm wrapped experience by experience, snug in its inescapable present-ness. Very... very secure indeed. It didn't become secure. It's always been secure. It just took ME a long time to stop refusing to see it as it is.
Solstice
Posted by pegasus on November 8, 2010, at 15:37:06
In reply to ? for long term therapy folks... Dinah, Lucie, etc, posted by workinprogress on November 7, 2010, at 1:11:55
This thread brings up so much for me, and it's all so jumbled in my head. But there are a few, poorly organized thoughts I wanted to throw into the mix:
- I, too, had a somewhat emotionally neglectful childhood, although my parents would be horrified to hear me say it. I was a pretty moody kid, and they tried to ridicule my moods out of me. Which was damaging in a lot of ways.
- I became very attached to one therapist I had, and was completely devastated when he decided to move to another state. I had another long-term therapist after that, to whom I didn't feel any attachment, although I think we did some good work together. I never think about her now, but I think about that earlier therapist a lot still. I'm starting with another T now, and I can feel the attachment forming. Our therapy is so far all about my want/fear tug-of-war in terms of becoming attached to him.
- I have a few really good, stable relationships in my adult life, including a very supportive spouse, who has been there through all of my adventures in therapy.
So, these experiences bring up lots of questions around attachment for me. Things like:
? Why do I attach so strongly to some people, in some circumstances, and not to others.
? Do *I*, personally, need attachment to a T for some kind of growth that I'm wanting? What about that other T I had to whom I never attached? Could I grow as much in that type of relationship?
? My husband is the poster child for steadfastness in a relationship. I've been with him for decades. So, why do I still seek (and sometimes avoid) attachment to a T? Why isn't my marriage the corrective experience I seem to be seeking (ambivalently).
? Is therapy the best place to look for whatever can come from deep attachment? It didn't work out so well for me when my ex-T moved. Ts move, change their practices, get sick and die. Read here for a while, and you'll run into many stories along these lines. Am I courting disaster by getting attached again to someone who is not family? Or is the benefit worth even that possibility?
? My current T says that ideally therapy will end when the client is ready for it to end. But isn't attachment permanent? If so, is the attached client truly ever ready for therapy to end? Or does it just become less feasible to continue - which isn't at all the same thing.
? I have met therapists and entire agencies who have no idea about attachment. That is to say, they don't understand their importance to the client. Consequently, they take far too lightly things like transferring one Ts clients to another T. WTF? Isn't this a critical piece to "get" if you're going to do therapy? Why is it handled so lightly?
Sorry if this is not helpful. I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade. I feel like I'm wallowing in pretty murky waters with attachment. It's not so clear at all to me that it's a good thing, as it seems to be to some of your Ts. Although, I'm open to being convinced that it is.
- P
Posted by emmanuel98 on November 8, 2010, at 21:42:50
In reply to Re: ? for long term therapy folks... Dinah, Lucie, etc, posted by pegasus on November 8, 2010, at 15:37:06
Study after study of dynamic therapy shows that the relationship is the most healing part of therapy. My T calls it having a "corrective emotional experience." I had a terribly neglectful mother and abusive father, but I managed to make a good marraige and raise a loving, appreciative, emotionally stable and successful daughter. Because of this, my T didn't want me to get too attached to him and tried to keep our sessions to once a week rather than twice (which is what I wanted). He felt I had already had "corrective emotional experiences" with my husband and daughter and didn't need him to re-parent me, but to help me learn to re-parent myself. Nevertheless, I had a lot of problems with emotional dysregulation and, after I started seeing him, fear of abandonment or being unloved. It took several years to work this through. Despite his assessment of me, I felt so overwhelmed by the experience of being listened to and cared for that I attached to him like a burr. It was really too intense, for him and for me. I went from adoration to raw fear that he was going to hurt or kill me then back to adoration and idealization. He once said I needed to de-deify him. Therapy is so complicated and intense and intimate and personal.
It's been a roller-coaster ride for me. But now, after nearly six years, we have cut back to once a month and I can handle that. I have learned to identify and express emotion and have a sense of a unified self that I never had before. (I suppressed memories and repressed emotions). One of the most important thing he ever said to me was, when I told him he didn't really care about me and only saw me because the insurance paid him, that he cared about me a lot, more than he cared about most friends. And if I couldn't pay, he would still see me and he would charge me whatever I could afford, maybe as little as $10 a session. This profoundly affected me and made me feel so much more secure with him. But the more secure I felt, the more I felt us drifting apart, because I had less to say and we couldn't talk about him or his concerns. So we have begun to meet less and I find he still cares about me and, even with a month between sessions, remembers everything I said the previous month. It's like having a parent. I have gone from infant to child to teenager with him, pushing and pulling at the same time. Now I feel we're settling into a relationship of parent/adult child. But it's still hard to imagine life without him, yet I must. He is 71 and won't stay in practice forever, even if his health stays good. When my parents died, I didn't even register it. If he died, I would be consumed with grief.
Posted by lucielu2 on November 8, 2010, at 21:50:04
In reply to Re: ? for long term therapy folks... Dinah, Lucie, etc » Daisym, posted by workinprogress on November 8, 2010, at 1:13:17
WIP,I am so impressed at your laundry list of things you have already accomplished in therapy! You should be very proud of your achievements. The attachment piece will come. Like everything else, it will take time and hard work, but anyone who has been able to do all these things in therapy must have a very effective relationship with T and also the capacity and motivation to take risks and make deep changes in herself. So together with the skills you have learned, I think you are really on your way. Hang in there.
Lucie
> * I can identify and name feelings (feelings are actually FELT... which I had no concept of)
> * I can identify and correct black and white thinking (sometimes!!!)
> * I have lots and lots of healthy coping mechanisms to keep me from "flooding" (thinking through my feelings, yoga, breathing, going for a walk, telling myself the feelings will pass like the weather, etc)
> * I am aware of and can sometimes stop/correct negative self talk
> * I know about differentiation
> * I recognize when I'm being a victim/looking for places to be abandoned
> * I can sometimes recognize that I am assuming that because I feel a certain way about myself other people must as well (not true)
>
> None of that was stuff I could do before... or even had a clue about. They probably seem like simple things listed out here, but for me they are not. I am much more grounded. I am much more aware. And I am much more myself. Hell... I HAVE a self!
>
> This secure attachment stuff is kind of the holy grail... I just want it D*** it!!! ;)
>
> Anyway... enough for now. I have to get to bed so I can get up for my new job tomorrow (I'm taking an hourly job so that I can go back to school- when I was salaried I had more freedom to come and go).
>
> xo
> WIP
> >
> > I think it might also be a bit of a different struggle when your therapist is a man because adult attraction comes into play as well - but maybe not. But add those feelings to the already complicated little kid feelings and wow - give yourself a break for struggling with this. It is a huge thing to be willing to engage in the struggle at all. And I guess I'd encourage you to not minimize all that you've accomplished just because it is still uncomfortable or gets uncomfortable. I think that is just realistically, part of all relationships.
> >
>
>
Posted by workinprogress on November 9, 2010, at 0:12:50
In reply to Re: ? for long term therapy folks... Dinah, Lucie, etc, posted by pegasus on November 8, 2010, at 15:37:06
Peg-
There IS a lot here. The one thing that stuck out for me is "why do I attach so intensely to some people and not to others". That is something I thought about quite a bit... especially in terms of thinking about how some people are afraid of attachment.
I'm not afraid of attachment in that sense. In the sense that I try very very hard to attach. I can really jump in feet first with people... and I did with my therapist. BUT... my attachment, with them and with her.. is NOT SECURE. I am always worried about keeping it, about being enough, about whether or not they like me, about whether they will abandon me or not. So... to me, it feels like I am VERY attached, because I'm clinging and hanging on for dear life. But, I am not securely attached at all. I don't know if that makes any sense or resonates with you at all... but that is a really important distinction for me. I am VERY attached to my T in that way... but it is far from secure- because I still worry she'll go away.
I do believe my T when she says that this is the goal of therapy. That I will have done much work and be well on my way when I get there. Or rather, that if it had happened as a kid I'd be much more sure of myself now. And if I can make it happen with my T I'll be secure in myself in a way that goes way beyond the Stuart Smaley "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and gosh darn it, people like me". For me it means going beyond the surface to something really core. It's just darn painful to get there.....
That might not work for you or make sense, I totally see how it's a leap of faith. But for me, it makes sense. I just wish wanting it meant having it. ;)
xo
WIP> This thread brings up so much for me, and it's all so jumbled in my head. But there are a few, poorly organized thoughts I wanted to throw into the mix:
>
> - I, too, had a somewhat emotionally neglectful childhood, although my parents would be horrified to hear me say it. I was a pretty moody kid, and they tried to ridicule my moods out of me. Which was damaging in a lot of ways.
>
> - I became very attached to one therapist I had, and was completely devastated when he decided to move to another state. I had another long-term therapist after that, to whom I didn't feel any attachment, although I think we did some good work together. I never think about her now, but I think about that earlier therapist a lot still. I'm starting with another T now, and I can feel the attachment forming. Our therapy is so far all about my want/fear tug-of-war in terms of becoming attached to him.
>
> - I have a few really good, stable relationships in my adult life, including a very supportive spouse, who has been there through all of my adventures in therapy.
>
> So, these experiences bring up lots of questions around attachment for me. Things like:
>
> ? Why do I attach so strongly to some people, in some circumstances, and not to others.
>
> ? Do *I*, personally, need attachment to a T for some kind of growth that I'm wanting? What about that other T I had to whom I never attached? Could I grow as much in that type of relationship?
>
> ? My husband is the poster child for steadfastness in a relationship. I've been with him for decades. So, why do I still seek (and sometimes avoid) attachment to a T? Why isn't my marriage the corrective experience I seem to be seeking (ambivalently).
>
> ? Is therapy the best place to look for whatever can come from deep attachment? It didn't work out so well for me when my ex-T moved. Ts move, change their practices, get sick and die. Read here for a while, and you'll run into many stories along these lines. Am I courting disaster by getting attached again to someone who is not family? Or is the benefit worth even that possibility?
>
> ? My current T says that ideally therapy will end when the client is ready for it to end. But isn't attachment permanent? If so, is the attached client truly ever ready for therapy to end? Or does it just become less feasible to continue - which isn't at all the same thing.
>
> ? I have met therapists and entire agencies who have no idea about attachment. That is to say, they don't understand their importance to the client. Consequently, they take far too lightly things like transferring one Ts clients to another T. WTF? Isn't this a critical piece to "get" if you're going to do therapy? Why is it handled so lightly?
>
> Sorry if this is not helpful. I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade. I feel like I'm wallowing in pretty murky waters with attachment. It's not so clear at all to me that it's a good thing, as it seems to be to some of your Ts. Although, I'm open to being convinced that it is.
>
> - P
Posted by workinprogress on November 9, 2010, at 0:14:47
In reply to Re: ? for long term therapy folks... Dinah, Lucie, etc, posted by emmanuel98 on November 8, 2010, at 21:42:50
> Study after study of dynamic therapy shows that the relationship is the most healing part of therapy. My T calls it having a "corrective emotional experience."
YUP YUP YUP... this is what I'm in the midst of.. trying to correct that original attachment gone wrong.
Posted by workinprogress on November 9, 2010, at 0:19:20
In reply to Re: ? for long term therapy folks... Dinah, Lucie, etc, posted by lucielu2 on November 8, 2010, at 21:50:04
Lucie,
Thanks so much! I know I HAVE made a lot of progress... I just wish I could do all of those things all or at least MOST of the time. Right now, they are all still so new, I'm in a place of trying to keep learning them and making them more ingrained and accepting when I don't quite do them. I'm also in a place of accepting that I have had some pretty considerable dysfunctional patterns/behaviors that make my therapy more "required" than just "buffing up the rough edges". For some time I thought I was in a place of just really doing some personal development to be a better person. I now am realizing that I am actually doing work to be a normally functioning human... to catch up with everybody else. That has been a challenging realization.
But yes, those have been good things. And a lot of progress... thank you for acknowledging it!
WIP
>
> WIP,
>
> I am so impressed at your laundry list of things you have already accomplished in therapy! You should be very proud of your achievements. The attachment piece will come. Like everything else, it will take time and hard work, but anyone who has been able to do all these things in therapy must have a very effective relationship with T and also the capacity and motivation to take risks and make deep changes in herself. So together with the skills you have learned, I think you are really on your way. Hang in there.
>
> Lucie
>
>
> > * I can identify and name feelings (feelings are actually FELT... which I had no concept of)
> > * I can identify and correct black and white thinking (sometimes!!!)
> > * I have lots and lots of healthy coping mechanisms to keep me from "flooding" (thinking through my feelings, yoga, breathing, going for a walk, telling myself the feelings will pass like the weather, etc)
> > * I am aware of and can sometimes stop/correct negative self talk
> > * I know about differentiation
> > * I recognize when I'm being a victim/looking for places to be abandoned
> > * I can sometimes recognize that I am assuming that because I feel a certain way about myself other people must as well (not true)
> >
> > None of that was stuff I could do before... or even had a clue about. They probably seem like simple things listed out here, but for me they are not. I am much more grounded. I am much more aware. And I am much more myself. Hell... I HAVE a self!
> >
> > This secure attachment stuff is kind of the holy grail... I just want it D*** it!!! ;)
> >
> > Anyway... enough for now. I have to get to bed so I can get up for my new job tomorrow (I'm taking an hourly job so that I can go back to school- when I was salaried I had more freedom to come and go).
> >
> > xo
> > WIP
> > >
> > > I think it might also be a bit of a different struggle when your therapist is a man because adult attraction comes into play as well - but maybe not. But add those feelings to the already complicated little kid feelings and wow - give yourself a break for struggling with this. It is a huge thing to be willing to engage in the struggle at all. And I guess I'd encourage you to not minimize all that you've accomplished just because it is still uncomfortable or gets uncomfortable. I think that is just realistically, part of all relationships.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
This is the end of the thread.
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