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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 59. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 12:00:46
After Katrina, I spent a year begging for my therapist to be present and engaged with me. Demanding it. Doing everything I could do to facilitate his being present and real and engaged with me.
I've noticed lately that he's been quite the professional therapist. I think I mentioned it in another post. Boundaries firmly in place. Warm and empathetic and attentive. And totally superficial and fake. I brought it up today thinking that something I did may have caused this. I brought it up in terms he came up with for the difference. Therapist X rather than X the Therapist. Of course he didn't remember, but that makes no difference. He eventually understood what I meant. And while he didn't disclose anything specific, he let me know that it was something going on with his life, that he didn't know if he could do any better than he was already doing, and that he didn't know when or if it was going to go back to normal.
He's not doing anything wrong. He's being the perfect therapist. But I can't go through this again. I can't spend more months begging for his genuine presence.
I offered today to let him off the hook. I told him I thought that as long as I continued to see him, I was going to bug him about being present and genuine. And that maybe it was best if he just called me when he was feeling himself again.
I think next time I'm going to be stronger in that statement. I'm going to tell him to contact me when he feels he can be present and engaged again, because I just can't do this again.
Perhaps not coincidentally I told him recently that I worried about his falling apart again like he did after Katrina. But I think he misunderstood. What I meant was his difficulty engaging.
And if one of the possible scenarios causing his distress is true, it could well lead to him leaving the area. So why should I put myself through a repeat of that very upsetting and even traumatizing time only to be *terminated*?
I just can't do it again. And I won't.
Posted by Phillipa on May 6, 2008, at 12:26:07
In reply to I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't., posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 12:00:46
Dinah sounds like you are very upset. So he's now professional but he was more in touch with your feeling before after the storm? You say he fell apart after the storm and then was okay. Do you feel he may be leaving the area? Or have a depression issue? Or am I totally off base. Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 12:39:21
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't. » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on May 6, 2008, at 12:26:07
I don't know what's wrong. He didn't tell me, and I wouldn't ask him to reveal anything personal. I would never intrude on his privacy and I respect the boundaries.
But I know that after Katrina, his life was in turmoil and he quit being emotionally present in session and it drove me frantic. He started being present again when his life got better. And now something in his life is keeping him from being emotionally present again. And I just can't go through that again. It's demeaning and upsetting and really traumatizing.
I am upset. I don't want to leave him, and I don't want him to terminate me. And I wouldn't be doing that at all. Just stepping back is all. Not terminating.
Posted by raisinb on May 6, 2008, at 12:47:00
In reply to I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't., posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 12:00:46
Oh Dinah, I know exactly how you feel. I can't tell you how many times my therapist and I have gone around and around about this issue. It's so difficult because they *are* being perfect. You can't point to anything they've *said* or *done.* But you know you aren't getting the real person. And it hurts, badly, because you know what getting the real, passionately engaged person is like. And it sounds like that's what is healing to you (as it is to me), not all the technically perfect things that they are supposed to do.
I don't know what to tell you to do :( except to keep telling him. I think it's fine to say you can't come for awhile, unless that would hurt you more than coming when he isn't fully there would. Explain to him exactly how it feels to get the professional rather than the person. Explain how much it hurts (I had some success explaining this to my therapist yesterday). She wouldn't listen to attacks or demands, but she did respond to my explanations of how her demeanor affected me (I think--we will see).
As for him terminating you, it sounds from your post like that is unlikely? So even though it is a horrible thought, can you just see if that becomes more likely and deal with it when the time comes?
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 12:59:05
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't » Dinah, posted by raisinb on May 6, 2008, at 12:47:00
Yes, that's it exactly.
He says that he knew he couldn't keep anything from me. But the last few sessions, I was so upset in session that it didn't start to niggle until I left. But once it did, I understood what was going on.
The bad/good thing is that he does understand how I feel. He understands and he empathizes, and he'd like to give me what I need. He even refuses to say that he's currently giving me all I'm entitled to. That a perfect therapist is all I have a right to expect. He says I have a right to expect him to be engaged. He just doesn't know if he can do it.
I don't know if anything can hurt worse than going there and having him not be present. At constantly reaching out to hit that wall. I would never leave him, but I think I am going to have to talk to him next time and tell him that no matter how much I care about him, I'm just going to have to take a break for a while. Until I can either bear the shell of his real self or until he can be real.
I'd rather have real and flawed and even grumpy and crabby and angry than that smiling expectant face. I'd rather he told me to shut up about my piddling little problems than to have him politely inquire into them.
As for his leaving.... He usually isn't averse to telling me briefly what's going on to keep him from being at his best. The fact that he's not makes me think it's something really private, like marital issues. And marital issues are the thing that will most likely cause him to leave the area, since he's long said his wife is what keeps him here because she doesn't want to leave. Yeah, I guess at this point it's a long shot. But it does influence my decision of how much of myself I'm willing to invest in another trough of our relationship.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on May 6, 2008, at 15:15:26
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't » raisinb, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 12:59:05
Dinah, presence is the most important thing that therapists do for us. all other stuff is just icing on the cake. to be there to listen to someone's narrative is crucial. I hope he will be THERE, in all senses of the word.
I wish you were here, too.
maybe another time...
-Ll
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 16:37:52
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't » Dinah, posted by llurpsienoodle on May 6, 2008, at 15:15:26
I wish I were there too. :(
I have my husband's approval to go to San Francisco next year, if the pattern of APA meeting/babblefest continues. (He has a solo trip he wants to take. Hah.)
I feel a sort of peace about the therapy issue. I know what I'm going to say Friday and I'm going to stick to it. I'm going to be totally nonaccusing and express my caring and fondness and my willingness to continue when he feels like he can be present. But I'm going to be absolutely firm that continuing to see a therapist who isn't really present is not an option. Been there, done that. Not doing it again. Nope.
I doubt there's a person alive who cares about their therapist more than I care about him. But I'm not doing that again.
Thanks, llurpsie.
Posted by seldomseen on May 6, 2008, at 18:34:39
In reply to I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't., posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 12:00:46
Oh Dinah, I'm so very very sorry this is happening. I do know what you are talking about. There is a huge difference between a perfect therapist and a genuine therapist.
I love it when I laugh with my therapist. Occasionally, he'll pop off something really funny. I think those moments are more healing than the insights he offers sometimes. I certainly remember them more.
It's not fair that this got dropped in your lap. My thoughts are with you as you progress through this.
Seldom
Posted by backseatdriver on May 6, 2008, at 19:26:48
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't. » Dinah, posted by seldomseen on May 6, 2008, at 18:34:39
Best therapist I ever had told me: BELIEVE IN LOVE.
I think, if you read him the riot act, in whatever way makes you most comfortable, you can, you should and you WILL get what you need.
My fingers are crossed for you, my thoughts and hopes are with you.
Posted by backseatdriver on May 6, 2008, at 19:27:52
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't. » seldomseen, posted by backseatdriver on May 6, 2008, at 19:26:48
Posted by rskontos on May 6, 2008, at 20:13:13
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't » llurpsienoodle, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 16:37:52
presence look like. Dinah I am so sorry about your therapist checking out. But something in your post made me realize something. Maybe I have never had mine's presence. Can you and Llurpsie, or raisin or someone explain presence better so my muddled mind might grasp it?
rsk
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 20:21:39
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't. » Dinah, posted by seldomseen on May 6, 2008, at 18:34:39
Some guilt is forcing its way past the flashbacks of post-Katrina. I swear, except maybe for huddling over my computer in the hotel thinking that New Orleans would never again be habitable, my biggest trauma was effectively losing him for so long without actually losing him. We spent days in bumper to bumper traffic with low gas, a whole day searching shelters for my inlaws, the death of my inlaws within a few months from the stress and my feelings of guilt and responsibility about that, all the devastation around here. All that and other than the first few days, my therapist's lack of connection for so very long is my most distressing memory.
But still. If I care about him is it fair for me to dump more stress in his lap when he's apparently overstressed? Is it fair of me to flee when I know he'll find that upsetting? I know it's my therapy, and I pay him and everything, but I still care about him.
I still think I'm going to have to do it, but now I feel really guilty and uncaring about it.
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 20:24:18
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't. » seldomseen, posted by backseatdriver on May 6, 2008, at 19:26:48
If he can, he will. But last time it took him over a year to pull himself together. I think maybe he doesn't handle stress well. And one of the ways he copes is to put up shields. :(
I can use all the crossed fingers I can get. Thank you.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on May 6, 2008, at 20:30:24
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does...., posted by rskontos on May 6, 2008, at 20:13:13
> presence look like. Dinah I am so sorry about your therapist checking out. But something in your post made me realize something. Maybe I have never had mine's presence. Can you and Llurpsie, or raisin or someone explain presence better so my muddled mind might grasp it?
>
> rskllurpsie describes presence
"the feeling that an emotion is not contained within one, but that it is shared, between more than one 'present' persons. There is a shared experience, shared memories, shared life. A present person is able to share a piece of his consciousness with you, and you with him"
That's some of my musings, anyway.
-Ll
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 20:44:23
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does...., posted by rskontos on May 6, 2008, at 20:13:13
Well, I can't. :) I'm lousy at explaining.
I see things differently I think. I used to keep my eyes closed all through sessions because I could "see" him better that way.
I've got two ideas about it. One is the space between us. When we're both engaged, it's like when Voldemort's wand and Harry's wand cast spells at the same time, and a golden web of energy was created around them. When we're both engaged, the space between is is full of warmth and energy.
But the other explanation, which feels more right in this case, is that usually I can feel my therapist as open and receptive with a firm core. I can sort of psychicly feel way inside him and feel his reactions as easily as if he had neon signs on his forehead. When he's like this, there's a warm attentive exterior, but if I probe more deeply, there's nothing there. Just a wall. I can only go a little way in and I hit a wall.
I can't really explain it well. When I know someone well, I can startle them by being able to pick up their moods nearly instantly. (My son does this too.) Usually I'm like a tuning fork tuning into my therapist's every passing emotion. But not when he's like this. He's just gone. A smiling attentive fake therapist. :(
My therapist thinks this is very schizotypal of me. But he also admits that I'm pretty much always right about his moods, even if I guess wrong at what's causing them. How can it be a sign of a disorder if I'm *right*?
Posted by sunnydays on May 6, 2008, at 21:18:09
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does.... » rskontos, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 20:44:23
I know kind of what you're talking about I think, Dinah. When my T was really upset after one of his patients committed suicide, he felt very distant to me in my sessions. He was still saying all the right things, but *he* himself wasn't fully there. And it killed me. He said that I probably felt it more than his other clients who hadn't been seeing him as long, and I imagine it's the same with you and your therapist. I would encourage you to stick it out for a couple more weeks and see if this might be a short term stressor for him. And maybe politely inquire about some of the possibilities. You seem to me to be making a lot of assumptions, and while you know your T very well, it might be better just to ask instead of guessing. You could preface it with, "You don't have to answer if this is at all too personal" or something, too.
But mostly, I'm sorry. It's hard when they're not all there.
sunnydays
Posted by LadyBug on May 6, 2008, at 21:57:30
In reply to I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't., posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 12:00:46
I can understand you not wanting to go through this or anything remotely close to what you went through with Katrina. Do you dare ask him what it is that is bothering him? Or would he even tell you? I think you are wise to stand your ground with him. This is your work, your buck, your time, your heart and soul. I say stick with what you are thinking!
You have worked with him for so long, I think you have a right to know what it going on and I also think you need to do what you think is best.
I would have to put up a fight with you to decide who cares about their T the most as I think I do. Right now, I'm not so sure.
When I feel threatened by someone about to hurt me I withdraw!!!! I think it will help me and I know it doesn't. But it's what I do to try to protect my heart. Don't feel, don't love and no one can hurt me.
I hope you can feel some peace after you see him on Friday.
I am crossing my fingers and my toes for you and I'll continue to think about you and wish you the BEST outcome to how you are feeling. It has to be good, I'm thinking the same thoughts for myself.
So much work, it has to turn out well!!!!
I'm thinking about you!
LadyBug
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 22:37:12
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does.... » Dinah, posted by sunnydays on May 6, 2008, at 21:18:09
Well, we did discuss it pretty thoroughly today.
Now I'm in the same position he was in. He said he didn't know how much he should tell me, and I'm not sure how much I should say here since it's not my stuff. And he apparently decided he shouldn't tell me what's going on, because he didn't. In the past he's been pretty open about telling me a brief summary of what might affect our sessions.
He did say it wasn't something that would clear up in a few sessions. That it was a long term problem.
He said he was doing his best to keep his stuff out of the therapy room, but that he should have known that wouldn't work with me.
Then he got stuck on whether he should tell me or not, and missed my point that I wasn't trying to be intrusive. I wasn't asking him to spill anything he'd rather not spill. But I was asking him to be genuine with me *in the moment*.
I learned enough that my guesses aren't wild ones. The only thing I might be leaping to unfounded conclusions about is that it is marital, because that's my worst case scenario, and I tend to leap to worst case scenarios.
I suppose he should at least answer what impact this may have on long term prospects of continuing therapy, and be honest that that aspect of it might influence how willing I might be to live through the frustration and loss again. Although honestly, I'm not feeling that willing right now.
I don't need to know what's going on with him. It might be nice not to worry that it means termination.
The trouble is that he's scrupulously honest. And the answer to that question will probably be that he doesn't know. That it might mean termination, but that he doesn't know. That's his answer to almost any question of that sort.
I know I'm feeling extra vulnerable because of not so distant past experience. But I think my fears about this aspect of what's going on are pretty well grounded in reality. Both of past experience and of what he said about it not being a short term problem.
He said he doesn't want me to quit over it, and I believe him. And he says he'll do his best, and I believe him.
I just don't know if that's good enough.
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 22:41:02
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't » Dinah, posted by LadyBug on May 6, 2008, at 21:57:30
I think I'm already having some peace about it. I don't blame myself for wanting what I want from him. And I don't blame him if he doesn't feel he can provide it.
I don't want to quit. I won't quit. But I think maybe I should tell him that if I feel like I don't need what I think I need, I'll call him. And if he finds that he thinks he can provide what I need, he should call me. No hard feelings on my part, certainly.
The very second he can provide me with more good than harm, I'm willing to resume.
Assuming I go through with it. As I said, I'm feeling guilty already.
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 22:46:10
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does.... » sunnydays, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 22:37:12
I suppose I should say that I pretty much put him on the spot today and he doesn't usually flounder on stuff like that. He was planning to go with brazen denial all the way. But when I crossed my arms and said I didn't *need* Therapist X and I only needed X the Therapist, and when I started crying, and when he realized his good show wasn't working, he started trying to talk to me about it. But since he had deluded himself into thinking I wouldn't notice, he didn't know what to say.
He really was wonderful about it in a way. He acknowledged that there was a difference to me, that his attempts to keep his personal stuff out of the room may have backfired with me, that I did deserve him to be as present as I was used to him being, etc. etc.
It's impossible to be angry with him. He's trying.
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 23:27:47
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does...., posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 22:46:10
At least partly because of his heavily mysterious manner.
And partly because I'm so afraid that it will happen again.
And I guess I'm angry that he can't manage to keep a stable life. If I can manage it, why can't he? He really doesn't seem to be able to. And it affects me and my therapy.
And I guess I'm scared because I fear that this will finally be the end.
I don't really want him to tell me the specifics. I understand his wanting to keep his stuff not only out of the therapy room for clients sake. But I also understand wanting to protect himself. If he's already in pain, he won't want that invaded by my fears and my pain. I am pretty sure he lied to me years ago when he got married. There was a congratulatory card on his desk signed by all his coworkers and he said it was for his birthday. It seemed an odd card for a birthday, and when he got married several months later, I realized he must have been protecting his happiness from my fears about how it might affect me. I understood that. I respected that. I can understand that even if he wasn't afraid it would be bad for me to know, that he wouldn't want me to know.
I guess I should be prepared to take a leave from therapy if that's best for me, but to not absolutely assume it will be necessary until I talk to him more.
I'm going to try to be reasonable.
I get so sick of being reasonable. And I get so sick of his making my being reasonable necessary.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on May 6, 2008, at 23:37:29
In reply to I guess I'm panicking, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 23:27:47
Dinah,
I'm sorry you're feeling so bad. Sometimes the pressure to "be reasonable" can be crushing.Be nice to yourself?
-Ll
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 1:56:41
In reply to Re: I guess I'm panicking » Dinah, posted by llurpsienoodle on May 6, 2008, at 23:37:29
Yes.
I dunno. I think I'm going to try to forget the whole thing and start fresh. Sometimes a poor memory isn't half bad.
Posted by raisinb on May 7, 2008, at 11:24:56
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't » raisinb, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 12:59:05
I wish they would realize that the reason we're there is because of them--not what they do or how well their responses match a model of empathetic practice.
I once told my therapist in a letter, "I stay because of you." I don't know if she understood what I meant. She's always trying to figure out our relationship intellectually, as if it is a problem to be solved. I wish I could explain in a way to make her understand. Or maybe she does understand, just can't do it all the time. Or won't.
Anyway, I feel ya :(
Posted by raisinb on May 7, 2008, at 11:26:53
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't. » Dinah, posted by seldomseen on May 6, 2008, at 18:34:39
LLurpsie, I love your definition. In fact, since this is an issue my T and I struggle with constantly, I'm taking it in to show her.
One of the fondest memories I have about my therapist was a time she yelled at me. She gave me the old "what for" in no uncertain terms. I remember this more fondly than all the technically supportive things she's said over the years.
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