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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Racer on December 8, 2005, at 16:55:07
I'm having a really hard time with this, and nothing seems to be getting me past it. Yesterday something very raw -- though very old -- came up, and it brought up again the comments from my T about how amazing it was that I survived. She's said it before, and it's bothered me before.
Anyway, I don't know how to ask what I want help with. It has to do with that whole victim thing, about how pathetic I feel when someoen says that it's so amazing that I survived these things. (Maybe because in part I *didn't* survive? Or just that I must be doing something to cause these things to happen to me, which makes me awfully pathetic. I don't know.)
This was from high school, when I was being tormented by other students. It was terrible, as those things are. In my favorite teacher's classroom, things got out of hand, and he took me into the hallway -- where he told me that he just couldn't control the class with me in it, and I'd have to leave. Just writing those bare facts is bringing tears to my eyes, and I have both a sadness and an impotent rage -- very much surpressed -- going on behind the pain.
Now, I'm an adult now, and I know that the people around me failed me; they were supposed to protect me, in some way, and they didn't. They didn't really even make an effort to protect me. I know that that part wasn't my fault. But there's a very big part that's got all that judgemental stuff going on about how it's wrong for me to expect other people to step in and protect me, that it's my responsibility and all the rest of that [expletive deleted -- think misspelt fish species]. I also know that being picked on really isn't the same as being pathetic or worthless. And I even know some of the problems -- like, I have this huge need for approval, but too much independence to fit in (bad combination in high school) -- but I still feel as though I should have somehow been able to fight all my own battles, without help, etc.
But every time I hear my T say something about me surviving, and how amazingly strong I must have been, I just collapse -- and feel weak, and pathetic, and all sorts of other things. None of them good.
Can anyone relate? Or help me work out what the problem is? Or where my answer might be found?
Or just tell me that only the best women feel this pathetic? lol
Posted by Racer on December 8, 2005, at 16:55:07
In reply to Rough again, again with the Survivor stuff, posted by Racer on December 8, 2005, at 13:34:33
Posted by gardenergirl on December 8, 2005, at 17:22:14
In reply to Rough again, again with the Survivor stuff, posted by Racer on December 8, 2005, at 13:34:33
Oh my, a forehead flick to that teacher of yours! How dare he lay the blame for his ineptness on you!!!!
Grrrrrrrr! Grrrrrrrrrrr! Grrrrrrrrr!
As far as the breaking down when you are called a survivor and strong, hmmm, I'm not sure. What comes to mind is that maybe you're just darned TIRED of being strong and surviving. You're right, you were supposed to be protected when you were a child. It really stinks and gets really old having to do this for yourself your whole life. You deserve a break.
(Oh lord, that stupid MacDonald's jingle written by Barry Manilow just entered my brain...Ear thwack to me! Thwack thwack! Out d*mned song. Out!)
Take care,
gg
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2005, at 17:45:52
In reply to Rough again, again with the Survivor stuff, posted by Racer on December 8, 2005, at 13:34:33
I can relate. :(
Except that I have absolutely no trouble being almost more furious with the teachers than I was at the students. How were they supposed to learn what was and wasn't appropriate if it wasn't "explained" to them? Aside from simple human kindness, which was apparently rationed in my middle school. I could have used Dr. Bob and his civility rules back then.
I'm rather amazed that I (and they) survived, even if I did get a bit broken in the process.
Maybe you're reliving some of how you felt back then? My predominant feeling at the time was utter and complete powerlessness.
Posted by Tamar on December 8, 2005, at 18:00:14
In reply to Rough again, again with the Survivor stuff, posted by Racer on December 8, 2005, at 13:34:33
> I'm having a really hard time with this, and nothing seems to be getting me past it. Yesterday something very raw -- though very old -- came up, and it brought up again the comments from my T about how amazing it was that I survived. She's said it before, and it's bothered me before.
Maybe because it takes all your effort just to survive, when what you really want to do is thrive?
> Anyway, I don't know how to ask what I want help with. It has to do with that whole victim thing, about how pathetic I feel when someoen says that it's so amazing that I survived these things. (Maybe because in part I *didn't* survive? Or just that I must be doing something to cause these things to happen to me, which makes me awfully pathetic. I don't know.)
You don’t cause things to happen to you. If people behave badly towards you, they are fully responsible for their bad behaviour.
> This was from high school, when I was being tormented by other students. It was terrible, as those things are. In my favorite teacher's classroom, things got out of hand, and he took me into the hallway -- where he told me that he just couldn't control the class with me in it, and I'd have to leave. Just writing those bare facts is bringing tears to my eyes, and I have both a sadness and an impotent rage -- very much surpressed -- going on behind the pain.
Frankly I’m stunned. What a terrible thing to happen. What an abandonment. I’m so very sorry.
> Now, I'm an adult now, and I know that the people around me failed me; they were supposed to protect me, in some way, and they didn't. They didn't really even make an effort to protect me. I know that that part wasn't my fault. But there's a very big part that's got all that judgemental stuff going on about how it's wrong for me to expect other people to step in and protect me, that it's my responsibility and all the rest of that [expletive deleted -- think misspelt fish species]. I also know that being picked on really isn't the same as being pathetic or worthless. And I even know some of the problems -- like, I have this huge need for approval, but too much independence to fit in (bad combination in high school) -- but I still feel as though I should have somehow been able to fight all my own battles, without help, etc.
Me too! Me too! I totally relate to the need for approval on the one hand and the independence and (in my case) refusal to fit in on the other hand.
> But every time I hear my T say something about me surviving, and how amazingly strong I must have been, I just collapse -- and feel weak, and pathetic, and all sorts of other things. None of them good.Maybe you’d like to be rescued? Maybe you feel tired of being responsible for your survival and you want someone to step in? Or maybe you don’t believe you were strong and you think you should have done better than ‘mere’ survival; you should have surmounted your difficulties within a few short weeks and been prom queen or something, like in the movies? Nothing wrong with any of those wishes… but of course it takes a lot longer in real life than it takes in the movies.
> Can anyone relate? Or help me work out what the problem is? Or where my answer might be found?
I can relate. I’m not sure if I have answers… If I ever do, I’ll share!
> Or just tell me that only the best women feel this pathetic? lolNow that’s certainly true. Women with a strong sense of morality and justice often feel particularly pathetic, even though they’re often the kindest people. There should be more women like you in the world. But ideally you’d feel competent and capable when you consider what it took for you to survive in a disempowering environment with no one to fight on your side…
(((((Racer)))))
Posted by chemist on December 8, 2005, at 18:45:53
In reply to Rough again, again with the Survivor stuff, posted by Racer on December 8, 2005, at 13:34:33
hello there racer...it's true: only the best women feel the way you do...feel better! yours, chemist
Posted by sleepygirl on December 8, 2005, at 19:06:51
In reply to Rough again, again with the Survivor stuff, posted by Racer on December 8, 2005, at 13:34:33
Hey Racer,
I'd really like to either hug you or beat someone up for you. :-)But what you say does strike a chord with me, because I feel like I have "survived" despite the odds. I do however bear the scars, and I feel a lot of loss, and a lot of sadness.
I'm not that tough, I did what I could, the only things I could, and I didn't chose my reality - but I have hated myself for it anyway.
I hate myself a lot because I didn't know better than I did, because I WAS affected, and I am often afraid people will find out about it too, and about how "pathetic" I am, and I'm angry because I had to handle it alone.That's just my reaction (for whatever it's worth)
I hope you get some good therapy work out of it.
Posted by Emily Elizabeth on December 8, 2005, at 23:19:08
In reply to Rough again, again with the Survivor stuff, posted by Racer on December 8, 2005, at 13:34:33
Wow, many people had very insightful replies. I thought that I'd just add what I associated to. One of the things that I personally struggle with is a deep, very hard to shake, sense of inner "badness." When those feelings of badness are stirred up, it is often very hard to accept support and kind words. In fact, it feels like, "If you really knew me, you would know how bad I am and not say kind things. The fact that you are saying kind things means that you don't really know me."
In your case, I was thinking that telling you that you are a survivor is difficult for part of you to understand--the (subconscious?) part that wants to say, "But I deserved it! It was my fault!"
Healing early pain is a long and painful process. Be kind to yourself.
Best,
EE
Posted by cubic_me on December 9, 2005, at 7:21:04
In reply to Re: Rough again, again with the Survivor stuff, posted by Emily Elizabeth on December 8, 2005, at 23:19:08
I can really relate to what you are saying Racer (as I'm sure a lot of others can), even though my circumstances were different to yours. I was so angry with one teacher (also a favourite teacher), it's the first time I can remember being angry.
I have a hard time thinking that what happened to me was enough to cause me problems now., but different people have different experiences. I hope you can work through this and come out the other side having dealth with the emotions surrounding it.
Posted by fairywings on December 9, 2005, at 9:22:31
In reply to Rough again, again with the Survivor stuff, posted by Racer on December 8, 2005, at 13:34:33
I'd guess some of the best women feel this way, and unfortunately some of the women with the most struggles I'd guess.
School can be such a terrible place for so many kids, and the teachers inadequacies can make it so much worse. I'm sorry your teacher was such a worm he couldn't control the kids who were causing you so much pain.
My daughter goes to a school where some of the teachers turn the other way not to see prejudice, some participate in it. Maybe most of the time it gets stopped, but I'm sure there are particular kids who are repeatedly hurt.
I admitted to my T that I have a huge need to feel protected, I don't feel protected, and I never have. I'm sure I have a rescue fantasy of one degree or another, and I'm sure he saw it, but didn't say anything. Maybe he thinks I don't know. Do want to feel protected by someone now? Have you mentioned it to your T? Have you told your T it's too difficult when they say you're a survivor?
(((hugs)))
fw
Posted by AuntieMel on December 9, 2005, at 10:46:31
In reply to Rough again, again with the Survivor stuff, posted by Racer on December 8, 2005, at 13:34:33
Funny. I used to feel a lot of the same things.
"But wait! I didn't survive, I'm damaged, can't you see!"
mixed with
"I really want to be as strong as you think I was and I feel like I'll let you down if I don't act that way!!!! I feel like such a loser!!"
I had a need (emotional and otherwise) to play the strong Cat Ballou they'll-never-see-me-cry-part all my life. It's really hard to let that facade drop and admit I'm human, even though I know I'm paying this guy a whole lot of money just for that reason. In a lot of ways I identify with the facade and don't even want to admit to myself I'm human.
Posted by AuntieMel on December 9, 2005, at 10:47:58
In reply to Rough again, again with the Survivor stuff, posted by Racer on December 8, 2005, at 13:34:33
Lately I've noticed that when my therapist says things like that he actually has a look of admiration in his eyes.
But my pride wants to slough it off as no big deal.
Posted by Racer on December 10, 2005, at 2:02:29
In reply to Re: Rough again, again with the Survivor stuff, posted by AuntieMel on December 9, 2005, at 10:46:31
I think you're on to something Auntie Mel. I know that I don't feel all that strong, I do feel as though if I had been strong enough, these things wouldn't have happened to me, and that I shouldn't have let myself be hurt.
Fairywings has something, too: I want to be protected. I am sick to death of having to be the only one that I can count on, because half the time I can't count on me.
Here's something that's come up for me AGAIN: I'm still not at all over that [misspelt fish name again] that happened last year at that agency, and I want to tell them what they did to me. And I want someone else to step in, and to say -- professional to professional -- "Guys, you done a bad thing to this broad -- here are the details, what the [very warm climate] were you thinking?" I find myself thinking of what I would have to get across to them, like about the time I was sent away when I arrived for an appointment:
"Gee, Dr EyeCandy, remember that time? When I called to make that appointment, I asked the guy at the appointment desk to check with you that it was OK to come in sooner since you stopped the last medication. Either he didn't check with you, in which case you punished me for something he failed to do -- or he did check with you, and you set me up. I told him to check with you, because I was already scared to death. How do you think I felt when I was turned away, when the receptionist said that you told her to tell me WHEN I SHOWED UP, RATHER THAN CALLING ME TO CANCEL? Not only did you devastate me by having me turned away, you made sure it was done publicly. Did you get a lot out of that? Did it make you feel better?"
I still have nightmares about that place, and that doctor. The most recent shows, though, that it's getting better: I don't remember all of it, but I do remember telling him, "There's no need to get into a p**s*ng contest -- I'll concede right now that your penis is bigger than mine is."
I think some of my discomfort is for feeling so weak, so ashamed that I had to survive anything at all. And some is that I *must* be to blame, since that's what everyone told me anyway. (Even those people at that agency. My T does tell me, "Oh, that sounds like what those people did to you -- no wonder you reacted, they repeated yet another trauma." That part, at least, helps. It helps me understand why I reacted so strongly to that whole mess.)
I'm tired. I'm feverish. I'm feeling poorly. GG told me I sounded puny -- I love that term, somehow. I'm gonna go pull the quilt over me on the sofa, and start another episode of "American Gothic." You can even say that I'm going to go sleep with Gary Cole... YUMMY!
Posted by daisym on December 10, 2005, at 19:50:19
In reply to I think you're on to something (FW, too) » AuntieMel, posted by Racer on December 10, 2005, at 2:02:29
I think too that the need to do it right, to win approval gets in the way here. If we *did* survive that bad stuff, if we *are* strong, then what are we still doing in therapy and being a mess? How can we need help if we are *that* strong?
And if "they" notice we had inner strength, won't they expect to use that inner strength now, when we don't feel it? As much as I hate it when things are expected of me, I NEED to live up to the expectations of strength, greatness and independence.
Just some thoughts I had. I react exactly the same way.
Posted by B2chica on December 11, 2005, at 14:28:40
In reply to Rough again, again with the Survivor stuff, posted by Racer on December 8, 2005, at 13:34:33
"survive? survive what"
"i wish i hadn't"feelings
b2c.
Posted by AuntieMel on December 12, 2005, at 16:30:11
In reply to I think you're on to something (FW, too) » AuntieMel, posted by Racer on December 10, 2005, at 2:02:29
I remember reading what you were writing when all that <stool> was going on, reading it real time and thinking "how can she stand any more"
No way, no way at all are you to feel like any of that could possibly fall back on you. It was public medicine at its most inefficient, unfeeling worse. The people working for the county are probably not paid a whole heck of a lot - and are probably there because they couldn't get a real job.
I was mad as a wet hen reading it.
Right, you may not have the body parts to get into a <spraying> contest with them, but you will get better in spite of them - or maybe to spite them.
And then maybe you'll grow a pair and tell them what you really think. At least it is sure fun to fantasize about it.....
This is the end of the thread.
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