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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 18, 2005, at 18:44:14
Who wants to talk about attachment???
I have been reading about various attachment styles...
Lets see if I can remember...
Nope. Oh well...
I think my attachment to my mother was a little odd. I remember her as invasive, but I think there was more to it than that. She doesn't have a dx or anything (managed to avoid the mental health system) but my guess is that at the very least she is BPD with anxiety / depression. She had intense emotional states... And her interaction with me was driven from there. She would pull when she needed me, and push when she didn't.
Over time... I pulled away as hard as I could because all I knew was that she HURT me.
But to be fair... In memory... There were times where our moods were matched and those times we could get on fine.
I guess she started trying to induce those states in me.
My father said everything was fine until I started to develop a mind of my own. Preferences of my own.
I remember she used to insist on feeding me till I was well into school. Choosing my clothes for me the night before. Protest was pointless. :-(
Yukko.
I couldn't understand why why why she would act the way she did.
Because of her emotions.
I understand that now
:-(I know they have done studies on attachment style. And personality styles of infants. What would be interesting would be personality styles of infants, personality styles of parents and how those two evolve over time...
I think they did stuff with rats where there were anxious mothers and secure mothers. Take a litter from a secure mother and give those to an anxious mother. More would be anxious... Take a litter from an anxious mother and give those to a secure mother. More would be secure.
Most anxious were those biologically and environmentally anxious.
Most secure were those biologically and environmentally secure.
My mother and I are too much alike
And that is the hardest thing in the world for me to admit :-(
Posted by Dinah on August 18, 2005, at 20:35:58
In reply to Attachment, posted by alexandra_k on August 18, 2005, at 18:44:14
Funny. That's exactly what I say about my mother. That she was a wonderful mother really, until I started to have a mind of my own. She saw me as her arm or her leg. A part of her. And parts of her aren't allowed to have minds of their own.
I used to think she supported me fully in every thing I did. Then I realized she didn't support me exactly, she lived through me. She became a scoutmaster and I had to stay in scouts because she enjoyed the social contact it led to. And she would keep telling me and everyone else how much I loved the scouts. I hated the scouts.
She was the only mother who didn't drop me off for ballet and leave. She sat there in one of the two chairs while the class of twenty or so kids practiced.
I won't even mention the final travesty of (supposedly) my hobby that she basically destroyed for me by becoming part of a political infighting disaster.
She would buy me toys that she wanted me to have, often years too young for me, rather than what I wanted me to have. I saw her doing the same thing with my son. Buying him toys not only years too young, but girls toys sometimes. Now she buys me clothes from a store I have consistently said I hated. The saleswomen call her and talk to her, and make her feel important. So she is convinced that I love the clothes from this shop, even though I say otherwise. "I know you say you don't like clothes from this shop, but I knew you'd love this petite (I'm 5'7") outfit!"
She would inform me of my preferences. For years she led me in prayer for the brother or sister *I* supposedly desperately wanted. I of course wanted no such thing. She was the one who wanted another child.
I don't *think* she was borderline though. I kind of wonder if she's narcissistic. Mostly I think she's just nuts.
I don't think I'm like her, though. Not in that way. She longed for social contact, but being socially inept, had to use me and my hobbies to reach others in a way that they couldn't exclude her. I hate social contact. :) I indulge my son, but I rarely buy him things I want him to have rather than things he wants, except maybe books. But I think moms are supposed to do that...
Did it affect my attachment style? I'm not sure. We were very close when I was young. But did I always know on some level that we were only close as long as I was part of her? Was I never really able to attach, because I was never really able to be separate enough to form an attachment? If you aren't an "I" and "you" how can there be an attachment?
Posted by annierose on August 18, 2005, at 21:20:50
In reply to Re: Attachment » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 18, 2005, at 20:35:58
Interesting thread. Interesting how various attachments lead to the same end --- therapy --- confusion.
My mother had nothing to do with me. Reading Dinah's post, it reminded me (a little) how my mother interacted with my brother. My T reads my mother as being a part of my brother, that the two are one. (The HUGE difference is that Dinah didn't want to participate, wanted to be different, but not my brother). So as a child, I see my mom gave my brother loads attention, tons of "toys", anything he wanted. That type of attention hasn't gotten him anywhere in his adult life. In fact, he has married a woman exactly like my mother, and their children are faring poorly (in my humble opinion).
My grandmother loved me. I can say that without a doubt. For that, I am lucky. My parents say that they loved/love me. But they have no clue to who I am as a person. They have no desire to get to know me. That would take too much effort.
What does all this mean today? The fact that my children are attached to me (in a healthy way) speaks to the success of therapy. Once I could admit to myself the mistakes my parents made, admit to the love I never had from them, felt small doses of that pain little Annie must of felt (this is where it's hard for me) ... then I am free to make different choices for myself and my family.
Attachment. Lots to ponder.
Posted by Dinah on August 18, 2005, at 21:36:40
In reply to Re: Attachment, posted by annierose on August 18, 2005, at 21:20:50
Welllll... I wouldn't say that exactly. It was more that fate intervened and forced me to diverge my desires from my mother's and I was totally confused as to why she suddenly and without warning turned on me. It wasn't until years later that I realized what was going on.
She still loves me as much as she's capable of lovign anyone. She's just got some major problems. :(
Posted by annierose on August 18, 2005, at 21:51:56
In reply to Re: Attachment » annierose, posted by Dinah on August 18, 2005, at 21:36:40
Sorry, I didn't mean to jump to any conclusions. Your post just struck me, reminded me of similar conversations I had in therapy re: my mother.
I agree too that my mom loves me as much as she is capable. For me, it wasn't enough. Many strengths came from her weakness though. I am independent, confident in my decisions (except in regards to my kids --- I always seek advice when something comes up since I have zero frame of reference to rely on) and strong. But my weaknesses are too many to post :)
I do experience examples of when my daughter needs something from me and I get angry for no apparent reason. It's part of an internal struggle going on inside myself, giving to my daughter something I didn't get for myself. Luckily, I can usually recognize this and stop my silly selfish self.
I regress. Sorry.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 18, 2005, at 23:07:41
In reply to Attachment, posted by alexandra_k on August 18, 2005, at 18:44:14
Its hard to admit...
That she loved me.
Because then my hatred isn't so justified.She did a lot of things for me.
Taught me how to read as soon as was humanly possible
Spent a lot of time with me on that
Priorities were always a roof over our head
Food on the table
Adequate clothing
Books and stuff for schoolBut aside from that...
And I suppose I dwell on the bad
Because it justifies my hatred.I think...
We were just a bad match
Both emotionally intense
We brought out the worst in each other :-(I don't talk about this
Because I focus on how much I hate her
But I do see her from time to time
One time she grabbed me and said she was sorry for all the bad things she had done
I know she has no earthly idea of the things she has done to hurt me
She has no earthly idea
There is nothing I can say to make her understand
And even if I could
What good would come of it?
It would only hurt her.I said 'its okay'.
'I forgive you'.
And I figure...
Forgiveness is a process
And one day I hope to god I don't hate her so goddamned muchI don't ever want to inflict myself on another human being
The way I felt she inflicted herself on me
And when we are stressed
(As I am quite often)
We revert to what is in our history...
And so I don't think I'll ever be able to trust myself around kids.
Posted by daisym on August 19, 2005, at 0:50:30
In reply to Attachment, posted by alexandra_k on August 18, 2005, at 18:44:14
This is a hard one. I love my mom. I've never doubted that she loved me. She just didn't have time to be my mom, only my mentor. She is very proud of me, and tells me all the things I could be...I have so much potential. I guess working with little kids wasn't her idea of success for me.
I think one of the reasons my therapist has encouraged this deep attachment and dependency is that I was never allowed to express just the emotional parts of needing a mom. If I had a problem, I had to come up with the solution. Nothing could just be bad. Or sad. Or unsolvable.
I think this is why I get upset when we try to problem solve in therapy. It isn't that I think his suggestions are out of line, I just want him to let some things be unsolvable, at least for now. I rail against feeling my feelings, but it is exactly what I need and want to do in therapy, with my therapist. I shudder to think what my mother would think of how I act with my therapist.
I still think it is interesting that I always freak out about being abandoned just after I've told him something that deepens my attachment.
Posted by Suzy_A on August 19, 2005, at 2:47:15
In reply to Attachment, posted by alexandra_k on August 18, 2005, at 18:44:14
I've been lurking for awhile and this is my first post.
I really never formed a healthy attachment with my mom. She tells me that at a few months old I would lay awake in my crib but not cry to be picked up. As a toddler, she says that I was really cold towards her like not wanting her to touch me. I still have a hard time letting her touch me. She also was a really bad parent but she doesn't remember it. She has a different memory of our childhood that my brothers and I have. I still have not forgiven her for some of the things that she did but I can't discuss them with her without telling her what really happened and hurting her.
I was really afraid of my dad as a todler and then he moved out when I was 5 so there wasn't much of a chance to form an attachment with him.
As an adult, I have a really hard time forming attachments, and have formed very few. It never occured to me that it could be tied to the attachments that I had (or didn't have) with my parents.
Posted by All Done on August 19, 2005, at 3:19:57
In reply to Attachment, posted by alexandra_k on August 18, 2005, at 18:44:14
My mom pulls everyone around her and she pulls very hard. As soon as we're where she supposedly wants us, she pushes everyone away. She has no idea what she does to the people around her.
I'm so afraid I'm exactly like her. And what if I have no idea when I'm doing it, either?
And everything is always about her only. How was I supposed to attach to someone who really had no idea what I needed or wanted? She never bothered to learn. Now, I find myself craving that sort of attention, but I'm afraid to ask for anything.
How does it all get so twisted?
Posted by alexandra_k on August 19, 2005, at 18:39:05
In reply to Re: Attachment, posted by Suzy_A on August 19, 2005, at 2:47:15
Hiya Suzie, welcome to Babble :-)
Glad you decided to join us.Its hard to know about attachments...
Sometimes all we really know about them is what our parents tell us about them. If your mom says you were cold (not wanting to be touched) then that might be because you needed LESS contact than normal, or it might be because she needed MORE contact than normal. So... A problem only arises when there is a mismatch, a conflict of needs.
I think different people / theorists / clinicians differ with respect to how important first attachments are. Some theorists like to trace everything back to there... And others consider it to be fairly much irrelevant.I dunno.
But when I think back...
I think I understand a little more about my present self...
Trouble is...
I'm not sure what that means about getting better
:-(
Posted by alexandra_k on August 19, 2005, at 18:44:47
In reply to Re: Attachment » alexandra_k, posted by All Done on August 19, 2005, at 3:19:57
> My mom pulls everyone around her and she pulls very hard. As soon as we're where she supposedly wants us, she pushes everyone away. She has no idea what she does to the people around her.
yeah. my mother was like that too.
Except... I couldn't figure out a push-pull pattern. I never could figure out what mood she was going to be in. It was always considered to be my fault, but I couldn't understand what I had done.my emotions blow hot and cold :-(
I don't know why
I can't figure out a pattern
but i think i do the same
sometimes i pull because i need to feel close
and othertimes i push because i feel that people are too close, invasive
i don't understand why the change
i know it hurts other people
thats part of why i used to hide from them
because i didn't want to hurt them
but knew that if they got to know me...
it would be inevitable
> And everything is always about her only. How was I supposed to attach to someone who really had no idea what I needed or wanted? She never bothered to learn. Now, I find myself craving that sort of attention, but I'm afraid to ask for anything.
> How does it all get so twisted?i don't know.
i'm sorry :-(
Posted by alexandra_k on August 19, 2005, at 18:55:36
In reply to Re: Attachment » All Done, posted by alexandra_k on August 19, 2005, at 18:44:47
When she was trying to get inside me
Make me do stuff
I'd just go inside my head
And think about thingsAnd sometimes I'd go limp
And sometimes I'd just do whatever she wantedBut i think she hated that
Because i had someplace to go
Somewhere where she couldn't reach me
And so she thought she couldn't break usBut of course
she did
Posted by alexandra_k on August 19, 2005, at 18:56:43
In reply to Re: Attachment, posted by alexandra_k on August 19, 2005, at 18:55:36
and sometimes the door is there in the inside of your mind
and f*ck the world anyway
the world is one f*cked up place
Posted by Suzy_A on August 19, 2005, at 20:37:55
In reply to Re: Attachment » Suzy_A, posted by alexandra_k on August 19, 2005, at 18:39:05
>
> I dunno.
> But when I think back...
> I think I understand a little more about my present self...
> Trouble is...
> I'm not sure what that means about getting better
> :-(
>
>I feel the same way. By looking back, I can understand what is behind some of my problems but knowing why I do them doesn't fix them. To make things worse for me, my mom lives with me about half of the year so she is a constant reminder of the problems that I have with her.
BTW, not only did I not want my mom to touch me as a child, she has told me a story that indicates that I flaunted the fact that I didn't want her to touch me but would allow it from someone else.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 19, 2005, at 20:49:00
In reply to Re: Attachment » alexandra_k, posted by Suzy_A on August 19, 2005, at 20:37:55
> I feel the same way. By looking back, I can understand what is behind some of my problems but knowing why I do them doesn't fix them.
Yeah. Although I'm starting to have some thoughts... But I don't know. Change is painful I guess.
>To make things worse for me, my mom lives with me about half of the year so she is a constant reminder of the problems that I have with her.
Ugh.
> BTW, not only did I not want my mom to touch me as a child, she has told me a story that indicates that I flaunted the fact that I didn't want her to touch me but would allow it from someone else.Yeah... But hard to figure how much of that is your stuff and how much of that is her stuff...
If she was invasive and wanted to hold you etc when you didn't want to be held then I think over time you would withdraw more from her... And then if there was someone else who was more sensitive to leaving you be when you needed that then it would make sense that you might let them be closer to you.
I don't know.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 20, 2005, at 0:25:47
In reply to Re: Attachment » Suzy_A, posted by alexandra_k on August 19, 2005, at 20:49:00
I'm exhausted...
I don't know why but this week I've just had this compulsion to dig and dig and dig
Maybe because of being asked to keep that journal on my ruminations
It got me thinking about all kinds of stuff.
And I decide that I can't do it
But I guess I've fairly much done it on the boards...:-(
And now I feel like the walking wounded.
And enough of the self-pity.
Sorry peoples...I need to snap out of it.
But first...
Find something to give to my t...I don't want to
I've done enough hurting this week :-(
Posted by cricket on August 20, 2005, at 7:20:49
In reply to Re: Attachment, posted by alexandra_k on August 20, 2005, at 0:25:47
Yeah, me too.
I've been alternating between bouts of despair and anger.
The angry part is muttering curses under my breath, taking offense at the least jostle on the train, scowling at everyone. Then I get her under control and it feels like nothing. I don't care whether I ever see my therapist again, I don't care that my outside life gets worse and worse every year. I just want to crawl in a dark little hole and forget everything.
I need to find one of those theorists that believe early attachment is not so crucial. Otherwise I've failed. Failed the magical age test, failed every test that this T set up to determine if I'm worth his time.
Yes, time to snap out of it. I have a day to myself today. Just to read and journal. Usually that helps.
I'm so sorry we both seem to be in the same place Alex. There's got to be better days ahead.
When's your appointment? It seems like you've certainly tried to deal with enough issues on Babble this week to cull something for her.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 20, 2005, at 7:58:08
In reply to Re: Attachment » alexandra_k, posted by cricket on August 20, 2005, at 7:20:49
> I need to find one of those theorists that believe early attachment is not so crucial. Otherwise I've failed. Failed the magical age test, failed every test that this T set up to determine if I'm worth his time.
:-(
What I noticed...
(Sorry for probably triggering once again)
Is that despite what their 'mothers' did
Those little monkeys still held on
Attachment is very resistent to all kinds of sh*t
I don't know that they ever really managed to prevent it
Which isn't to say that those monkeys didn't have severe problems later in life
Despite their not being able to induce 'significant psychopathology' that was visible at the time.I don't know what Bowlby found...
I don't think its the be all and end all.
The CBT therapists I have seen weren't interested in it at all.
They figured that the problem is in the present
So the solution lies in the present too
There isn't any point in getting too caught up in what has happened in the past
Can't change the past.
No point purposely hauling it into the present.
I guess there is enough that manages to get there all by itself...
I don't know.But its not too late.
You talk to us.
You reach out for people contact.
You care about what people think of you.
You haven't managed to give up on people altogether.
So, I reckon there is a lot of hope
And IMO that 'critical age' b*llshit is pulling numbers out of the sky
Fact is we don't know
And people are massively resilient.> When's your appointment? It seems like you've certainly tried to deal with enough issues on Babble this week to cull something for her.
Monday. Yeah, I'll have to think of / find something.
Thanks.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 20, 2005, at 8:16:20
In reply to Re: Attachment » alexandra_k, posted by cricket on August 20, 2005, at 7:20:49
>Failed the magical age test, failed every test that this T set up to determine if I'm worth his time.
You might want to tell him about that????
It can be hard to know about therapy.
If you feel like running then is that because you are getting somewhere and it is a self-protective strategy that has outlived its usefulness...
Or is that because you are picking up that something is not right and you would be much better off with someone else.I dunno.
But it sounds like you need him to be a bit more nurturing.
And thats a hard one.
A hard one to ask for.
Sometimes... I wonder whether its something that can be asked for. Has to be freely given or not at all. If someone doesn't even NOTICE then there is not really anything one can do... But... I'm not sure that it does work like that. I don't know.I've been saying that a lot lately :-(
Its not good.
Its alright to say it occasionally
But if you say it too much
Its because you are losing your grip
Your understanding of the world
Its not making sense
I've been here before
:-(
I'm sorry.
And who wants to walk with me????
lol!
point taken...
Posted by fairywings on August 20, 2005, at 20:45:20
In reply to Attachment, posted by alexandra_k on August 18, 2005, at 18:44:14
This attachment thing is confusing to me. Is it just our mom that was crucial to our attachments? My mother was loving and devoted as far as everyone could see, and lots of times she was, but when I was young, she didn't ever stand up for me or validate my feelings, she'd withdraw her love, stuff like that. When I was a teen ager she had a weird attachment to me, needed me to need her because my dad was having an affair, she didn't want me to be strong and leave her. When I went to college and got married, there were times when it seemed she couldn't stand it that I was happy, and other times when she was happy for me. I couldn't even begin to diagnose her because for the most part she was pretty strong, but lashed out a lot, usually at me.
fw
Posted by alexandra_k on August 21, 2005, at 22:56:21
In reply to Re: Attachment » alexandra_k, posted by fairywings on August 20, 2005, at 20:45:20
> This attachment thing is confusing to me. Is it just our mom that was crucial to our attachments?
I dunno. I think most focus on mother - child attachments but there has been work done on other varieties of attachment too. I remember learning a bit about how the psychologists thought that traditional Maori culture was pathological because the whole whanau (family) would share the care of infants (including being breast fed by different people etc). They thought that was unhealthy but turns out it doesn't have to be. In fact... In some cases it can be more healthy as the infant gets to bond with someone who is more fitting than the birth mother may be. I think... That even though caretaking was officially a family affair infants would still form special bonds with one (or perhaps even two) other people. But the infants and carers would sort that out between them. It wasn't just a 'well, we are stuck with each other now' kind of thing...
And of course people who are adopted reattach to another.
And some are cared for by their fathers and their mothers return to work.
etc etc.
Turns out Bowlby is really important with respect to the notion of attachment. No time to read yet... dunno if I'll get to it. Might be worth a look but I think I'm getting the impression that he was more interested in deprivation rather than poorness of fit...
Posted by Damos on August 22, 2005, at 20:06:44
In reply to Attachment, posted by alexandra_k on August 18, 2005, at 18:44:14
I'm sure I've said stuff about me and my dad somewhere before. Well let's just say there's been an awful lot of time when I haven't exactly liked him a whole lot - okay downright hated him and blamed him for all kinds of stuff. The only thing I have been absolutely clear about my whole life is that I didn't, wasn't gonna grow up to be him. Each and every time I saw some of him in myself or my behaviour I'd crash and burn for a while. We've never been able to talk in any real way.
Well I had to go and see them on the weekend and I was already a bit wobbly for my own reasons, but I remembered reading bits of this thread and it struck me that no matter what I am or become, I will never be him. I may have a similar genetic make-up and some similar features and traits, but I will never be him. I have awareness of how things have unfolded between us, an acceptance that he did the best he could, that he was replaying his relationship with his father and the problems he had growing up. I am also aware of my depression and how being able to be open about it helps me and how none of that was possible for him. Of how much of himself he gave up to give us security and stability growing up. Of how babble helps me see and be and grow. How some of the best of me comes directly from him. I have the opportunity to say 'I don't know, I'm not strong enough, I don't understand, I need help', and to cry and be weak and pathetic which he didn't.
So I went, but this time I made a conscious choice to only take love and kindness with me, to let the rest go. To accept that even though I don't and won't like him all the time I will always love him and be bound to him 'causes he's my dad'. It made a difference. It was still stilted and awkward and we didn't have much to say to each other but I could see him better. I could see the softness and the kindness that I've heard about but never seen the possibility of till then. I could see that he wants to get across the gap too, before it's too late - like it was with his dad, he just doesn't know how. Whether he is aware of the impact stuff has had on me or not doesn't matter, nor does the fact that we may never be able to talk about the hard stuff or hug each other. What matters is my choice to forgive and to not carry all that hurt around with me so I can dip into it constantly and use it to stuff up the present as well. I've finally realised I can't change him or make the past okay, but that I can take responsibility for trying to make a space where the present can be better (for me if no-one else), where I can say to myself 'you might be pressing all my buttons, but I'm gonna love you anyway, whether you like it or not.'.
There's stuff about my mum too, but that can wait.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 23, 2005, at 2:07:30
In reply to Re: Attachment, posted by Damos on August 22, 2005, at 20:06:44
Oh Damos you are doing so well, I hope I can get there with my mother... maybe one day. it is hard. but what you say makes a lot of sense...
focusing on her bad qualities is only upsetting to me because i do resemble her a lot... but there are good qualities too. sometimes... sometimes they would shine through. not so much with me i guess but with other people.
and im different too. because i have a little help with trying to understand. and... though i tend to do this at times (eg with harry potter) she reads everything at such a rapid rate of knotts so none of it really sinks in. i have that tendancy too but i think ive learned to focus my attention a little more.
Posted by Damos on August 23, 2005, at 17:12:34
In reply to Re: Attachment, posted by alexandra_k on August 23, 2005, at 2:07:30
> Oh Damos you are doing so well, I hope I can get there with my mother... maybe one day. it is hard. but what you say makes a lot of sense...
Really I'm not. If it hadn't been for reading the posts on this thread I probably wouldn't have realised that I had to let go of some bad stuff to have space for there to be a chance of there being good stuff. Oh yeah, can I quote you regards my making a lot of sense, it'd be a first?
> focusing on her bad qualities is only upsetting to me because i do resemble her a lot... but there are good qualities too. sometimes... sometimes they would shine through. not so much with me i guess but with other people.That was something that struck me. I was always hearing from others that he was this and that, and I was like 'who is this bloke they see, I don't see that.' So I decided to try and see the possibility of those things.
> and im different too. because i have a little help with trying to understand. and... though i tend to do this at times (eg with harry potter) she reads everything at such a rapid rate of knotts so none of it really sinks in. i have that tendancy too but i think ive learned to focus my attention a little more.Yes, and you have the same things that I described. The awareness of the hurtful behaviour and the ability through that awareness to consciously choose not to repeat/replay it. You have more strength than you give yourself credit for. You are getting there, little by little. You did really well with the last p-doc thing, bit wobbly but overall okay and better than before. You've been having a pretty rough ride the last week or so, but you haven't crashed, you've held on and some more little bits of okayness made it through. I'm really proud of you.
Just think of it this way; if you're standing in a dark house with a torch, ,you can't light up every room or even every corner of one room at the same time.
This is the end of the thread.
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