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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 72. Go back in thread:
Posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 15:30:27
In reply to Re: I think I have some serious issues **trigger** » rainbowbrite, posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 15:28:22
I think I should really stay by myself. I think I should get a divorce and just stay by myself. I don't think I ever want any relationship with anybody. I have had enough.
Posted by anastasia56 on May 12, 2005, at 15:31:49
In reply to Re: I think I have some serious issues **trigger** » pinkeye, posted by rainbowbrite on May 12, 2005, at 15:13:53
the common thread in all your posts pinkeye is
you blaming yourself alot.No matter what the situation doesn't that seem lopsided? No one is ever that wrong or bad.
you couldn't have known how you would feel about going back to India when you made that promise years ago.
i echo everything everyone has said to you here. As my mother used to say "If everyone were jumping off the Empire State Building would you do it too?" Just because most families in India experience some violence towards wives does not make it right. Just because most wives in India feel it is their duty to follow their husbands directives, does not make it right. You are your own person with a right to a future that will make you happy.
ana
Posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 15:44:36
In reply to Re: I think I have some serious issues **trigger**, posted by anastasia56 on May 12, 2005, at 15:31:49
The thing is I think somehow I can fix it.. Somehow if I were better or somehow changed my attitude or somehow please my hsuband little more, maybe he would have been more affectionate towards me. Maybe he wouldn't have gotten into all that cult thing. Maybe he would have been more considerate towards me.
I really feel people kind of get what they deserve.. and if I am getting bad things in life, it is because I deserve it. Maybe it is what is taught in my religion.
And I felt guilty about liking my ex T also.. somehow I feel I don't deserve to be treated with respect, becuase I liked someone outside of marriage.
And even with my fahter, I alwasy thought somehow if I changed myself, he would like me or not scold me or not scold my mom.
My new T also says the same thing that you guys do.. that somehow I always manage to blame myself .. and she thinks it is a huge issue for me with my dad. My dad always used to say take responsibility and don't blame circumstances or others. And she thinks my problem with men is because of my getting really abused by my dad. She thinks what my dad is really serious - and that it has really damaged me.
Maybe I am just irrevocably damaged..
Posted by Dinah on May 12, 2005, at 16:02:56
In reply to Re: I think I have some serious issues **trigger** » anastasia56, posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 15:44:36
It would be nice if we had the power to control other people's reactions. Kids especially like to think that if they're good enough, they'll be treated better, because they have no real power to leave or to make things better, so their only power is the illusory power they give themselves.
But no one has that kind of power. Your husband thinks it's ok to hurt someone he supposedly loves when he gets frustrated. Maybe it's cultural, maybe he's just never had to learn differently.
You have no power over him.
You have power over your own life. You can decide what you want for yourself, and more importantly for the kids you might have. I wouldn't want any daughter of mine growing up thinking it's her destiny to be beaten, as long as it's not too "bad".
Most of us here are a bit broken. But it doesn't have to be irrevocable unless you choose it to be. If you throw up your hands and say nothing will ever change, guess what? Nothing will ever change.
It's totally up to you.
I always hate that.
Posted by PM80 on May 12, 2005, at 16:10:59
In reply to Re: I think I have some serious issues **trigger** » anastasia56, posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 15:44:36
STOP blaming yourself. You keep going in circles with the end and the beginning being that it is your fault somehow. Your feelings are just as valid as your father's or your husband's. Stop thinking that they are not. That is stinkin'-thinkin' as my T would say.
Try, just for the hell of it, to think about the facts without putting blame on anyone. Think about how you feel about things without worrying about whether that feeling is right or wrong. It simply is. Your feelings exist and it's okay. I'm not lying. You do not have to be able to explain your feelings or why you have them. Let yourself listen to you and don't feel bad about it. It is what is. Honestly, this helps me when I'm trying to figure out how I feel about things.
Posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 16:22:19
In reply to Re: I think I have some serious issues **trigger** » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2005, at 16:02:56
thank you.
I am not able to reply too much anymore. I just so hate myself..
I am no good. I was kidding myself when I wanted my ex T to like me.. no wonder he said there is no question of liking me.. he must have understood how crappy I really am.
I really don't feel like doing too much of anything anymore.. not even try to live well. I have got my first under performance review in this past 3 months. I have never gotten an under performance so far. My manager was asking me waht is wrong with me.. that I used to do things so well, and now I am just not doing anything.
I just want to go someplace where there is no one.. and I will live by myself. this is all too much for me.
Posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 16:23:05
In reply to Re: I think I have some serious issues **trigger** » pinkeye, posted by PM80 on May 12, 2005, at 16:10:59
Posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 16:24:39
In reply to Re: I think I have some serious issues **trigger** » pinkeye, posted by PM80 on May 12, 2005, at 16:10:59
thank you PM80. I am not so well now.. Not able to reply too much now. but thanks.
Posted by Dinah on May 12, 2005, at 16:29:51
In reply to Re: I think I have some serious issues **trigger** » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 16:22:19
I'm sorry, Pinkeye. I hate to be evaluated negatively at work. It just sends me reeling.
You're going through some rough times with some rough decisions. You aren't awful, you're overwhelmed.
Deep breaths now. One bad review does not a bad person make (thank heavens). It feels rotten, but it doesn't make you a rotten person.
Posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 16:35:40
In reply to Re: I think I have some serious issues **trigger** » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2005, at 16:29:51
yeah.. and I am not able to concentrate at work or learn things too much.
I have always had above expectation or meeting expectation. This was the first time they said I was not able to meet the regular expectations. It is not too bad, and anyway I am planning to resign after couple of months - to go back to India if I have to. Or will take up a travelling job. Anyway, this week is my fifth year in my company anniversary. And it feels bad to not be able to leave the company finally wiht good review.
Posted by JenStar on May 12, 2005, at 16:43:36
In reply to Re: I think I have some serious issues **trigger** » Tamar, posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 14:53:48
hi pinkeye,
I too am troubled that your husband hits you and pulls your hair. That is completey unacceptable, or should be, to you! You do NOT deserve that.Can I ask a personal question? Did you marry for love, or was it an arranged marriage? Was your husband respectful when you first got married?
Would it be possible to divorce and live here alone in the USA? It sounds like you're very far off from making a decision like that, but I was wondering from a legal residence standpoint if you could even do it.
Also, it doesn't mean that YOU'RE the immmature one if your husband beats you or treats you poorly. HE is the immature one, the one with the problem.
I'm thinking of you! take care of yourself.
JenStar
Posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 16:59:52
In reply to Re: I think I have some serious issues **trigger** » pinkeye, posted by JenStar on May 12, 2005, at 16:43:36
I think I feel so worthless, and not deserving.. and not good and cannot be loved or respected. I don't know why I feel that. But that is the way I feel.
I am realizing more and more.. I feel totally not worthy of being treated with respect, or loved. Atleast by men. With women, I am fine.
Somehow I think I behave like a child still with men.. somehow I think it is ok for them to kind of spank me or teach me, or things like that. I have felt that way towards most men in my life.. infact almost all of them.I can stay here if I want to. I do have a Green Card. but I think I am not capable of staying alone or finding someone again and remarrying. I mean, emotionally, I am way too weak to do all that.
Posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 17:04:21
In reply to Re: I think I have some serious issues **trigger** » JenStar, posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 16:59:52
How do you guys feel about yourselves? Do you like yourself? Do you think yourself as a good woman basically?
How do you guys relate to men in your life? Do you get beaten? Or kind of illtreated?
I find that in spite of trying so hard, I always end up getting not respected..or liked really and myabe there is some real issue with me.
My new Ts theory is that it was all my father's upbringing.. He kind of managed to treat me like a child for a long time, and treat me like a wife, and treat me like a pseudo adult and gave me kind of pseudo independance. He would always say you can do what you want, but I always knew that I had to do things the way he wanted it. And my husband is like that very much. He keeps saying that I have full freedom, but he won't tolerate even if I deviate slightly from what he wants.
Do you guys get to do what you want?
Posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 17:22:54
In reply to Can I ask you all something? **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 17:04:21
And what do you guys feel about being a woman? I have serious issues around it.. possibly caused by my father's confusing treatment of me for several years.. he treated me like a tom boy, like a child, like a wife, like a man.. and he has caused me so much of confusion.. he has said things like men won't like you if you are smart, and at the same time telling me men will like me if I am smart.
And in my culture it was not a common thing for woman to be career oriented and work and everything.. especially in my family circle and in my town. most of my cousins didn't finish their degrees and most of them got married by 20 or something to a guy their parents chose. I was always the odd one out.. I used to study pretty well, and was constantly teased by all my cousins. They used to say if I am so brainy, no guy will ever like me. And I had huge issues even to go to engineering college. lot of my relatives said who will ever marry you if you do engineering and study so well? And my cousins always told me I was like a man. because I was so geeky.
And to top it all, I was extremely fat when I was young - was about 200 pounds. and my paretns used to make me wear so loose clothes, and there was like no shape.. and many days, I never felt like an attractive person for several years. only after I came to college, I started realizing there were other girls who were like me.
My dad caused me so much of conflict in my sexuality.. and I feel to be a good woman means to not work, and to stay at home, and to listen to whatever your husband says (possibly influenced by my culture)..But I do work - in fact I am in one of the best companies in the world, and I have a very highly challenging career. But it adds a lot to the conflict of wehther I am a good woman or not. And my hsuband follows a cult, where they say good woman don't work. And it only adds to the conflict so very much.
And I think perhaps one of the reasons I put up so much with men is because I somehow feel like I am not a good woman basically. And I feel actually if I protest against my hsuband and leave him etc, or stand up to my rights, then I am not a woman kind of thing. But sometimes I jsut take too much, and become extremely angry at my husband.. but that is mostly if I lose complete control.
Do you guys understand what I am talking about? Can some of you shed some light into what you think?
Posted by Dinah on May 12, 2005, at 17:41:57
In reply to Can I ask you all something? **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 17:04:21
Well, we mainly come from Western culture where achievement is prized as much for women as for men.
I don't think of myself as a woman at all. But I do consider myself a good enough person. Moreover I think that all people deserve basic common decency and respect merely because they *are* human. They don't have to earn the basics.
So it has never occurred to me to be with anyone who didn't treat me with respect. It is such a basic requirement that I don't even think about it. I also insist upon it for my son from my husband. More than lack of abuse, I also insist that he treat him with the respect he deserves, regardless of his age.
Actually, while my husband has never ever raised a hand to either of us, I don't think he meets my standards on the issue of respect. So I keep insisting that both of us be treated respectfully, but I don't always get that. It doesn't keep me from thinking I deserve it.
So I separate the two topics. Everyone deserves basic respect, especially from those who love them.
As a separate issue, I have decent self respect and reasonably accurate self esteem. I acknowledge that I am good at some things, and not so good at others. I know I'm smart, and that I'm not attractive. Like most people in the universe I'm a bit of good and a bit of bad.
But I'm not sure I can personally understand how important it is for you to be seen as a good "woman". I tend to see things in a gender neutral way.
Posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 18:32:58
In reply to Re: Can I ask you all something? **trigger** » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 12, 2005, at 17:41:57
hmm.. I understand..
But I think it is very important for me to a good "woman" - even perhaps more than being a good person and treated with respect as a person. Possibly because that is what I lacked the most.
And I have this notion, that you have to earn respect. That becuase you are a human - you may not be given respect.. I had to earn it all the time as a child - if I didn't do well, I wouldn't get respect, and I would get scolded at. My fahter has pounded on me so many times again and again and again if I lack in something - if I didn't learn english, or if I didn't read news etc. I was constantly terrorized about soemthing or the other in my life always. And my mother was too. Perhaps it is all because of that. I know I am blaming my fahter too much tehse past few weeks, but I want to understand exactly what happened.. otherwise, I keep blaming myself for everything.
My T says it was possibly because of the constant abuse I had that I had grown very uncomfortable with the concept of being a woman. She says I just resisted it, because I was not comfortable with my dad treating me like a wife. She says I grew very uncomfortable with my body because of it..and that is why I have these very basic doubts. She says it is common for kids who are kind of abused to have these doubts.
Posted by anastasia56 on May 12, 2005, at 18:45:31
In reply to Re: Can I ask you all something? **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 18:33:47
can you expand on the part about how your father treated you like a wife?
Posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 19:07:36
In reply to Re: Can I ask you all something? **trigger** » pinkeye, posted by anastasia56 on May 12, 2005, at 18:45:31
please can I not get into that now? I don't want to tell it again if that is ok with you. I am trying to not think too much about all the details.
I have beaten it up in other threads already. It wasn't really all that bad now that I think of it. thankfully there was no explicit sexual abuse.. even though there was huge violation of boundaries I guess.
Posted by messadivoce on May 12, 2005, at 21:10:43
In reply to Can I ask you all something? **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 17:04:21
Growing up, I didn't feel like it was safe to be a woman. My T and I worked a lot on that, actually. I was a tomboy as a kid and a teen. My dad never really affirmed me as a woman, and made me feel dumb when I dressed too "girly" around him. When I went to college I still never felt comfortable dressing up really pretty. I wore a skirt to a session once with my T and I felt soooo self conscious. It became an issue in the session that we talked about.
My T helped me become more comfortable with my sexuality as a woman. I didn't feel like my sexuality threatened him like I felt it did my dad. He even told me once he thought I was an attractive person. I know he meant the whole package, including my personality, but he must have thought I wasn't bad looking. ;-) I feel much more confident in myself as a woman now. I enjoy getting dressed up more even though I still do love my jeans. :-)
As for the men in my life...my dad never really treated me with respect, even the respect you show a child. He never told me I looked nice. I always felt suspicious of men. Which made for some really interesting sessions with my male T. My fiance treats me with wonderful respect and love and consideration, and I love it! He thinks I look good no matter what I'm wearing, too, and will tell me I look nice.
I guess I consider myself a good *person* more than a good woman. But I like myself as a woman. I'm comfortable with that. But I'm not super girly or anything. It's just not me.
Posted by JenStar on May 12, 2005, at 23:25:22
In reply to Can I ask you all something? **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 17:04:21
Pinkeye, I'm sorry to hear that you don't like yourself right now. I hope that changes. I hope you can see the wonderfulness in youself! Because you ARE an awesome, interesting, smart, fun person. And you deserve a man who sees that in you and treats you with respect.
I believe you T could be right - after so many years of being treated like a "second class citizen" by your dad -- even though he loved you of a kind, in his own strange way -- you are no longer capable of thinking of yourself like a first class person that you are.
It might be something you need to work on - respecting yourself and demanding it from others, esp. your husband. However, if your husband is steeped in a culture and tradition that believes woman are inferior, there is little chance he will ever change. Either you need to accept him and that life (no!!!) or you need to change yourself, which might mean leaving him.
I know that right NOW you don't feel emotionally ready to do it. But maybe there is a reserve of strength in you. I mean, if you're sad and lonely in a bad relationship, you're kind of alone anyway, right? Wouldn't it be better to be free and able to start over? I don't know if your relationshipw ith your hubby is to that point, or if it's salvagable. But I DO know that you will need to take a stand for yourself and make sure that you get the respect you deserve. There could be any number of reasons why you are the way you are, but you have the choice to change if you want to. At least, that's what I believe!
In any case, I do like myself most of the time, although there are many things I wish I could improve or change. I love my husband dearly. He loves me, treats me kindly. We laugh and joke and share things together. He is supportive. I love him and feel lucky to have him.
I wish you all the best.
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on May 12, 2005, at 23:33:47
In reply to One more question for all of you **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 17:22:54
Pinkeye, it sounds like you are very conflicted. You're caught in two worlds -- one that demands that a woman serve a man, and be subservient to him; if she succeeds at being a good wife/caretaker/etc. then she is a "good woman." And then you're also here in the Western culture that says a good "person" is someone who is successful, has a good job, is smart, is attractive, etc. And you're torn, because you have a foot in either world. You're working at a good job (as you said) and are recognized for your achievements. And then you're married to a man who wants the subserviant wife, although he's probably also proud that you do so well, because that is valued here too. So it's hard for you to determine what is best.
But you're not happy being a servant. Being a "good woman" to ME means that you're a strong woman, a powerful woman who knows her mind and gets respect from people. She's a woman who is kind and nice and friendly, but doesn't get trampled upon. She's attractive in spirit regardless of her physical looks. It means being a good mother, if you're a mother; a good sister or daughter; a good wife. It's a person who recognizes her femininity and uses it appropriately. Although defining "good wife" is going to be different to everyone!
I think a good woman is a good person. It does NOT mean that you have to do everything your husband says, or everything that the alpha males in your family say. It does NOT mean being meek.
But I understand that it is different in many parts of India. If you go back there, would it be even more difficult to be the strong independent woman?
JenSTar
Posted by Tamar on May 13, 2005, at 5:00:20
In reply to Can I ask you all something? **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 17:04:21
I don’t often think of myself as a woman. Sometimes I think of myself as being a bit like a child, and sometimes I think of myself as a person (gender neutral). I only think of myself as a woman when I’m thinking politically.
I think the question of what it means to be a woman, and particularly what it means to be a *good* woman, is very loaded. The idea of ‘woman’ is often very sexualized, and imagined only in relation to ‘man’. The words ‘man’ and ‘person’ are often interchangeable, whereas a woman is by definition not a man. It is the differences from men that make us women.
So to be a good person is quite gender neutral, whereas to be a good woman often means that one has to be good within particular gendered categories: specifically those categories that focus on the differences between women and men.
The most obvious category is sexual behaviour. For example, Western society tolerates more promiscuity from men than from women. Men are routinely characterized as red-blooded creatures who *need* sex and are always ready for it; women aren’t perceived as needing sex in the same way. In fact, if a woman behaves in a way that suggests she needs sex, she is often castigated. The most extreme example is prostitution. Prostitutes use sex to fulfil an economic need, rather than a sexual need, but are characterized as bad, wicked women because of their sexual promiscuity.
All this, in fact, bears no relation to reality. In fact, men do not need sex more than women, and many prostitutes are kind, compassionate people.
Being a good woman often means being unlike a man: being sexually restrained, and displaying other characteristics that are considered to be feminine: meekness, gentleness, agreeableness, and so on. Displays of qualities that are considered masculine are discouraged in women (aggressiveness, competitiveness, ambition).
It’s subtle, but it’s there. And I don’t like it much. I would rather be a good person than a good woman. I think it’s very difficult for men to respect women as long as they expect us to be fundamentally unlike them. And if they don’t respect us, it’s harder for us to respect ourselves.
Sorry, this turned into a rant. I imagine many people will disagree with me, and that’s OK; it’s just an opinion. I guess I just wanted to say that being a good woman doesn’t necessarily lead to happiness, whereas being a good person is its own reward.
Posted by sunny10 on May 13, 2005, at 8:26:34
In reply to Re: Can I ask you all something? **trigger** » pinkeye, posted by Tamar on May 13, 2005, at 5:00:20
okay (deep breath in for me)...
No, I don't respect myself as much as I should. I was raised inconsistently, like you. One minute I was told that I need to study hard and do well in school and be successful; the next minute I was told that men don't like smart women. The way you wrote your post really hit home for me.
And I do feel that when I am depressed, I put myself down more, and I treat myself badly. And I think that on a primal level, my SO responded to that and started to view me as somehow less than him and started treating me accordingly. Instead of dealing with his own issues and anger, he started taking them out on me- much the same way I take my angers and frustrations out on myself.
But, when I am not depressed, I am strong and refuse to be treated that way. And I was no longer depressed when my SO strangled me in that hotel room. He took things WAY too far- violence is MUCH different than yelling (mostly in that it is concrete proof of disrespect). Now we will go to anger management, pinkeye. I need to learn to be more assertive and speak up when I am angry- not stuff it all inside until I become depressed and start treating myself badly. And he needs to learn to express his anger in acceptable ways. Violence is not an acceptable way. Neither is putting someone else down (berating them, treating them like a second class citizen, et cetera).
And at the same time, I am going back into therapy for myself to learn to treat myself better and not present a doormat to the world for all and sundry to walk upon whenever they feel like it.
So, yes, I understand you when you say that part of your marital issues are how you feel about yourself and how you present yourself to your husband. BUT, you do not have the power to go into your husband's brain, send brainwaves to his arms and fists, in order for them to hurt you. Only HE has that power. And it is a power of primates; sorry if I am going to speak poorly of your Indian town, but it is NEVER okay for men to regress to primative thinking. The human race is too evolved to allow that type of regression. It is a profanity.
Sorry I couldn't get online last night- I tried, but with dial-up, and going through my company's servers, I couldn't get into the separate posts... it kept crashing my laptop.
I have presented a somewhat different point of view from the others now, though.
Can you see that it's still not okay for your husband to hurt you?
My experience with my SO has been of short duration- I nipped it in the bud by leaving our shared house and demanding therapy if there is to be a future for us.
Yours has been of much longer duration and your husband is a cult follower, my SO is not. Your husband's cult allows (probably expects) this type of violent behavior. In my opinion, unless your husband leaves this cult and enters therapy with you, you need to leave him.
Your very life may depend upon it. And then it won't matter that you haven't figured out what you want in life because you won't have one anymore. Yes, you may feel young and immature. But you have many years in front of you to grow up and grow wise IF you give yourself the chance.
I fear that for you to stay with him will remove your chance to grow and become your own person.
That is my opinion. But I think you know this. Even when you mention that you don't think you'd go back to India if it was your own father dying, you mention that there is something inside you that knows it would be inherently wrong to do that. You DO know the answer. You are afraid. And that is okay. Everyone has to do things they are afraid of. Be brave for yourself. No one else can do it for you- although a shelter can help you if you need time to get yourself back on your feet, financially, before you can live alone.
Will you talk to your T about all of this? I know that all of our different posts have scared you and confused you. Can you print them all and go through them with your T? Let T help you figure it all out, okay?
Praying for you,
sunny10
Posted by B2chica on May 13, 2005, at 10:27:09
In reply to I think I have some serious issues **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 12, 2005, at 13:57:43
Let me ask you,
1. do you think that moving to india will make your husband treat you better?
2. would you have as much or more emotional support (family/friends) over there.
3. if you were to leave your husband, where would you be better off doing this, states or india?these questions came into my mind as i was reading your statement.
and no matter what you or others may tell you, i don't care if you provoked him to all get out- that still does not give him the right to hurt you in ANY way. what you described is most definately domestic violence and should not be tolerated.(family illness or no).please be safe and where you have the most emotional support.
b2c.
Posted by PM80 on May 13, 2005, at 11:59:28
In reply to ask yourself this..., posted by B2chica on May 13, 2005, at 10:27:09
I agree with everyone's sentiments here. So I'm not going to repeat them, but I do urge you to consider the number and intensity of this thread's posts. A lot of people are telling you the same thing and the same thing emphatically.
I'm going to tell you a few of the things I like about you.
You are concerned about being a good person.
You are intelligent.
You take the time to think about things.
You remained true to yourself and pursued a career, even when others didn't want you to.
You have the insight and integrity to consider what is right and wrong - you do not blindly follow a culture's rules.
You are aware that actions have consequences and you face them head-on.These certainly sound like qualities of an outstanding woman, even if she questions herself sometimes. You are more than you think. If you choose to take the risk of leaving your husband, you WILL be able to take care of yourself. You will not be lost in the end. When one door closes, another always opens.
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