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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Shortelise on March 1, 2005, at 13:23:19
This feels a little self-indulgent, but I need some comfort.
I feel like my T is not understanding me, that I'm not able to express, though I really want to, what I am feeling, how confused I am, and how this confusion manifests. He seems to be whizzing by me in another direction, but I wonder if he is being insightful and I am too - whatever - to recognize it. We've been in therapy together for six and a half years, and I think I should have some faith in his insights.
I feel so confused.
Also, I am frustrated because I don't feel like I have any real insight into myself, like I am bumbling around, lucky if I am able to recognize and apply anything I have learned in therapy.
It's easy to apply the things I've learned in therapy here, to read what others write and be insightful - but inside my own mind, things are not so clear.
I feel so awful. Like something old and useless. And I can't seem to let go of my anger at my mother. She continues to do her same old boosheet, and it hurts me and I am angry, though I do feel some compassion. My knee jerk reaction is always always to think about suicide, though it is a thought, not an intention, no plans, and my T knows. But I hate it, I hate that I think about it, I hate that it is in my lexicon. And that too is because my mother always talked about it as an option.
Argh.
ShortE
Posted by Aphrodite on March 1, 2005, at 13:54:22
In reply to Needing comfort, posted by Shortelise on March 1, 2005, at 13:23:19
I'm not sure how to comfort you, only to say that I understand what you are saying completely. I don't know that it necessarily matters how long you've been with your T -- both of you grow and change and he may not always "get it." So as my T says, tell him 100 times in a 100 ways until he does.
I was struck by what you said about suicide and how it relates to your mother. My mother would fly off the handle and attempt to do us all in along with herself. It is a learned response for me because that is how she dealt with any kind of upset. I go to suicidal ideation too, no matter the trigger. I don't know how to erase it. I've tried explaining it to my T as a twisted way of comforting myself when I am in despair. Is that true for you too? No matter the reason and no matter if you have a plan or not, it's still a scary place to be. I think the only answer is to learn to be compassionate toward ourselves instead of destructive. A very, very hard lesson.
Please keep reaching out to your T until you are understood. It's hard to have that objective insight about yourself; you are too close and vested and entangled. You need your T to help you with it all.
Posted by Shortelise on March 1, 2005, at 14:18:52
In reply to Re: Needing comfort » Shortelise, posted by Aphrodite on March 1, 2005, at 13:54:22
Thanks Aphrodite.
Yes, it is a sort of comfort to think of suicide. My mother taught me that.I remember her saying that when she was feeling bad she would think about how she could kill herself if things didn't get better. She normalized it for me. Thanks Mom. I just HATE this.
I feel responsible that my T doesn't get me, doesn't understand how I am feeling. It's my fault, I am just too stupid to have evolved as I should have up until now, or I would be able to say the things I need to say.
And I feel so sad that we are supposed to be terminating, and I am still so bloody nuts. I feel so sorry for myself. It's like, ok, here I am after this many years of therapy, I am seeing my T once every two weeks with the expectation that I will see him even less frequently as soon as I feel it would be ok, and I'm this pathetic mess. It's not about termination, I am not worrying about that because I know it won't happen until I am ready. I just feel awful and want to feel better, think I should feel better, but I don't.
Double argh.
ShortE
Posted by TamaraJ on March 1, 2005, at 14:43:59
In reply to Re: Needing comfort » Aphrodite, posted by Shortelise on March 1, 2005, at 14:18:52
((((Shortelise))))
You are human, and like all humans we struggle with emotions that can leave us questioning ourselves. But, you are certainly not stupid. Nor are you old or useless or self-indulgent. It's normal to want to gain greater understanding of ourselves, our emotions and our triggers, and either come to terms with them or let go of them. Perhaps your current T isn't able to give you what you need at this point in your therapy. Perhaps you have evolved to a certain point, and he/she is not sufficiently equipped to carry you over the hump to the next evolution. You shouldn't be too hard on yourself. It took years for you to develop a certain way of thinking and behaving. It is not unreasonable to think that it can take many years to master a change in thinking and behaviour.
Strength to you. Take good care.
Tamara
Posted by Shortelise on March 1, 2005, at 15:01:15
In reply to Re: Needing comfort » Shortelise, posted by TamaraJ on March 1, 2005, at 14:43:59
Thanks Tamara.
I do hope this T can see me through.
ShortE
Posted by Aphrodite on March 1, 2005, at 15:02:15
In reply to Re: Needing comfort » Aphrodite, posted by Shortelise on March 1, 2005, at 14:18:52
I'm sorry if you have already explained this, but why are you "supposed" to be terminating? Doesn't sound like you want to.
Posted by Shortelise on March 1, 2005, at 15:10:48
In reply to Re: Needing comfort » Shortelise, posted by Aphrodite on March 1, 2005, at 15:02:15
because I was feeling much better, and at times I do feel a lot better, and it seemed like it was time. I've worked through a lot, no longer have debilitating work anxiety. That seems separate from this ... maybe I am depressed. Again.
I keep having an image of breaking through a glass window with my fist. It's a self-destructive image. But I wonder if it isn't also an image of breaking though.
I don't want to stay in therapy forever. I want to get better and feel better.
ShortE
Posted by pinkeye on March 1, 2005, at 15:23:19
In reply to Re: Needing comfort » Aphrodite, posted by Shortelise on March 1, 2005, at 15:10:48
You don't have to get out of therapy ever - if it helps you, why don't you just keep it for a lifetime? That is what I am planning to do myself - maybe go for a session once in a month or so or even once in two weeks if you feel that is what you need for yourself.
You don't have to be ashamed of needing therapy for a lifetime - after all, it is just a heart to heart talk which if we were living in a more interwined society, we would have got from others. Now because of all this loneliness that we put all of us in - in the name of individualism - some of us are praying a price.
IT is a very basic human need to connect so deeply to another human being, and thankfully there is now a way of getting that need fully met by paying some amount to a professional. Feel free to depend on therapy as much as you need - and don't ever be ashamed of that.
And suicide is not an option. I believe you can create a meaningful life with some effort, and as long as you feel even a moment of happiness in your days, you should give yourself the chance to live - who knows, maybe one year down the line, there might be a miracle and you might feel completely fine. Trust in that and take care of yourself now.
Posted by TamaraJ on March 1, 2005, at 15:24:52
In reply to Re: Needing comfort » Aphrodite, posted by Shortelise on March 1, 2005, at 15:10:48
I'll just put this out there, and I apologize in advance if it is a sore spot and sounds nonsensical. Have you been able to confront your mother in any way, even if it is just at this point writing a letter saying all the things you want to say and expressing your anger towards her that you may not send? The block you are experiencing could be the result of pent up anger towards your mother (sorry if that's a duh statement). Unleashing that anger, whether verbally or in writing, could result in a break-through. Perhaps your T, if he/she hasn't already done so, could initiate a role play with you to give you an opportunity to release some of that anger. I don't know.
Tamara
Posted by Shortelise on March 1, 2005, at 18:13:10
In reply to Re: Needing comfort » Shortelise, posted by TamaraJ on March 1, 2005, at 15:24:52
Tamara, I am so lucky. When I talked to my mother last week and she did some of her awful stuff, I got off the phone and went to my husband, told him I needed to yell. We talked for about an hour, and I ranted much of the time, sometimes shouting, about how I feel, what I feel, and why I feel this way.
I cannot confront my mother because she is emotionally incapable of facing herself. She is very fragile emotionally. She can't face the truth, has never been able to, but is completely unaware of it. It would be utterly devastating to her emotionally, and it would be cruel. She's also 73 years old. She is not going to change now. The help I might get from talking with her about these things would be negated by her devastation. I know this from experience.
How I wish I could, though. It's all I can do at times not to shout at her. And I am so afraid of being like her.
Thanks Tamara.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on March 1, 2005, at 18:22:06
In reply to Re: Needing comfort » Shortelise, posted by pinkeye on March 1, 2005, at 15:23:19
Pink, I don't want to stay in therapy forever. I want to feel better and move on, I want relationships with my husband, friends, cats, family - and not need a therapist.
I do agree that we are spearated in too many ways from too many people. As infants, our mothers work, as children, we move, our friends move, things change around us with a rapidity only known in disrupted societies before us.
I am grateful for my T, and I would love to keep him, tuck him nicely into my life and visit him whenever I like. But that's not to be - I don't want it and he doesn't see it as an option. But you're right, I do feel ashmaed of me need for what he provides.
All of my life, almost fifty years, for as much of it as I can remember, I have always thought about suicide, and have only really attempted it once, but I guess I didn't take enough meds to do the job as I woke up the next day. And that was years and years ago. It's not that I think I will kill myself, I don't think I ever would - I just wish that it would never occur to me. Ever.
Thanks, Pink. I appreciate your thoughfulness so much.
ShortE
Posted by pinkeye on March 1, 2005, at 18:57:37
In reply to Re: Needing comfort » pinkeye, posted by Shortelise on March 1, 2005, at 18:22:06
Somehow I can't think of anything too wrong with going to therapy for a lifetime. Agreed it might be better to be on your own fully, but I would rather take a crutch and walk staight rather than try to walk by myself and keep falling. The ultimate goal is to be well and happy and of course have a real life relationship with husband, friends etc. But I don't believe therapy is taking that away from you - I believe therapy is only helping you substitute what little thing is missing in real life. And real life is never perfect for any of us, so why not substitute it?
Especially if are in a position where you could afford therapy easiy.
Posted by Dinah on March 1, 2005, at 20:15:54
In reply to Needing comfort, posted by Shortelise on March 1, 2005, at 13:23:19
Sometimes those thoughts are just daydreams to me, a thought of possible escape. The more you fight those thoughts, the stronger they're likely to be and the more power they'll have on you.
Can you just accept them in yourself? My therapist has even started doing that with me. Not if I'm clearly in distress of course, and certainly not if the thoughts move into urges. But other times, he'll just note that the thoughts seem to bring comfort to me. Nonjudgmentally. I think that's a part of DBT training isn't it?
Your mother was wrong to talk that way in front of you. But sometimes mothers do their best, and their best isn't all that good. I've got a mother who was both great and horrible. I've managed to emotionally divorce her, but I think I've lost a lot that was good about me when I learned to do that.
I'm sorry you're feeling rotten right now. There seems to an epidemic of that lately. And it's not at all self indulgent to ask for what you need.
Posted by littleone on March 1, 2005, at 20:53:21
In reply to Needing comfort, posted by Shortelise on March 1, 2005, at 13:23:19
You and your T will click. Therapy's full of ups and downs and it sounds like you're in a down. But you've got so much history together, you won't just keep missing each other forever. It just takes perserverence.
> It's easy to apply the things I've learned in therapy here, to read what others write and be insightful - but inside my own mind, things are not so clear.
It's funny you say this, I was actually just thinking this exact thing earlier this morning. Falls had posted something saying I was smart (looking around, pointing at chest, who me?) and it was just like you wrote above.
Sometimes I can write things to think about to other people, but in my own mind, things are just so muddled and basically just too close to home. I was thinking maybe I should post an issue then reply to myself as though it was someone else's issue. Except, that would be like talking to yourself, only worse I think :)
> I feel so awful. Like something old and useless.
Aw, does it help to know that I think you're sweet and helpful?
> My knee jerk reaction is always always to think about suicide, though it is a thought, not an intention, no plans, and my T knows.
Someone else mentioned not long ago (and I'll probably get this a bit wrong) how once s appears on your list of options, it is never removed from your list. It will always be one possible solution to your problems. I think this is such a sad concept.
Hope things improve for you soon.
Posted by Speaker on March 1, 2005, at 21:08:40
In reply to Re: Needing comfort » Shortelise, posted by Dinah on March 1, 2005, at 20:15:54
Posted by Shortelise on March 2, 2005, at 0:55:36
In reply to Re: Needing comfort » Shortelise, posted by Dinah on March 1, 2005, at 20:15:54
I guess I have to learn to accept the suicide thoughts. I don't feel like they get stronger, but they are always there in times of self loathing.
I guess I really need to talk with my shrink about it.
My mother was great about some things, too - I had a very unusual childhood in a good way. But I would love to be able to divorce myself from her emotional caca without having to compartmentalize. I don't know how and am hopefully learning this with my T.
Maybe you will grow back into the good things from your mother. Wouldn't that be nice? I mean, when ugly stuff from my mother tries to slither out of me, I get to yellin' and stompin' on it. Maybe when the good things slither ... er ... express themselves, you might recognize them as things you love about yourself and let them be?
It's very intellectual to think about it, write about it like this. It's not as if these things happen with a label, and if I'm not sure, I look it up in the ShortE manual. Shite. Wouldn't that be nice.
Is it spring that's making some of us feel this way.
Thanks Dinah.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on March 2, 2005, at 1:01:49
In reply to Re: Needing comfort » Shortelise, posted by littleone on March 1, 2005, at 20:53:21
I think that may be right, that once suicide is on one's list of possiblities, it never comes off.
I am so tired, I don't want to have to persevere with my T, I just want to be understood and helped. It will pass, I know it will pass, but seeing him every two weeks ... sigh. I know others feel this way, and I'm sure that we are not a lone in the world. I'm just so tired.
Thanks, littlone.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on March 2, 2005, at 1:02:48
In reply to (((((Shortelise))))) (nm), posted by Speaker on March 1, 2005, at 21:08:40
Posted by daisym on March 2, 2005, at 1:50:02
In reply to Re: Needing comfort » littleone, posted by Shortelise on March 2, 2005, at 1:01:49
Being tired can effect your thinking, your mood and your ability to cope. I know you already know this. You do sound depressed again. Perhaps it is short lived and will pass but keep an eye on it. Any anniversaries to think about around this time?
I'm the one who said that once suicide got on my list of "options" it has remained. It is weird for me to say that I understand the thoughts and the difference between thinking about it and intent. I'm horrified myself that these thoughts occur to me. Don't be too hard on yourself about this.
My therapist tells me often that I can't be my own therapist. Especially when I'm reading and researching. So if your personal insights get muddled sometimes, don't worry. There is a reason it is called your "unconscious". Even with as much work as you've done, human beings are complex creatures. I read somewhere that the more in touch with yourself you are, the better and more sophisticated your unconscious is at hiding things from you.
I'm sorry you are feeling rotten. I'm glad you reached out to us. I wish I had the magic answer for you.
All I have is a hug. ((((ShortE))))
Posted by Shortelise on March 2, 2005, at 12:11:06
In reply to Re: Needing comfort » Shortelise, posted by daisym on March 2, 2005, at 1:50:02
Thanks Daisy.
The idea that mu unconscious is still trying to outsmart me does make me feel better.
SOmetimes it feels like my mood will never stabalize, that I'll always ride this up and down thing. I'm not bi-polar, it's not so very intense. But it's tiring.
Thanks again. I have to consider anniversaries.
ShortE
Posted by gardenergirl on March 3, 2005, at 0:21:48
In reply to Re: Needing comfort » daisym, posted by Shortelise on March 2, 2005, at 12:11:06
Posted by littleone on March 3, 2005, at 14:48:18
In reply to Re: Needing comfort » Shortelise, posted by daisym on March 2, 2005, at 1:50:02
> I'm the one who said that once suicide got on my list of "options" it has remained.
Daisy, sorry I couldn't credit you with this. I simply could not recall who said it and where. But it was obviously very insightful because it really stuck with me. Thanks for that.
This is the end of the thread.
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