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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by mair on January 28, 2005, at 20:32:19
In reply to Re: Well, I suppose I did quit, posted by Susan47 on January 28, 2005, at 19:55:12
No Susan, Dinah has been working with this same therapist for about 10 years.
Mair
Posted by Dinah on January 28, 2005, at 20:39:40
In reply to Re: Well, I suppose I did quit » Susan47, posted by mair on January 28, 2005, at 20:32:19
In fact he hadn't understood anything I've said for the past two days. He had some vague awareness I was upset with him, but no idea why. He hadn't caught on at all that I had quit, although I thought I had said it in plain English, and he was bewildered why I was wondering if he would take me back.
He wants me to come in and explain it to him.
I got awfully scared a while after I quit, so I suppose I'll go see him.
What happened doesn't matter. What matters is that I don't lose him. I'm such a worm.
Posted by Susan47 on January 28, 2005, at 21:19:09
In reply to He hadn't noticed, posted by Dinah on January 28, 2005, at 20:39:40
Oh lordy Dinah, it sounds like he plain wasn't listening.
Posted by Susan47 on January 28, 2005, at 21:19:35
In reply to He hadn't noticed, posted by Dinah on January 28, 2005, at 20:39:40
I hope I'm wrong, keep alert, Dinah. Or not, if I'm wrong about that too.
Posted by Shortelise on January 28, 2005, at 21:21:09
In reply to He hadn't noticed, posted by Dinah on January 28, 2005, at 20:39:40
YOU ARE NOT A WORM. YOU ARE A HUMAN BEING, A VERY HUMAN BEING.
Sorry that I'm yelling. It's just that you really are not a worm.
Hugs ShortE
Posted by mair on January 28, 2005, at 21:39:17
In reply to He hadn't noticed, posted by Dinah on January 28, 2005, at 20:39:40
Tell him to pay more attention. Although it's always tough for me to know whether my T just doesn't "get" me when she should, or whether she doesn't "get" me because i'm communicating so poorly and think she should be a mind reader.
Dinah - you are not a worm, but you need to have a little more trust in him and a little more regard for yourself to realize that he feels a real sense of commitment to you.
Unless I was misunderstanding her, my T I thought told me once that she would view my quitting as a part of the process and not as an irrevocable decision. I used to worry that if I quit, or took a break she'd never take me back. Of course she also told me yesterday that I should feel free to express any negative sentiment about her I felt including that I wanted to kill her. Righttt - like I'd ever say that even if I felt it.
Please keep us posted and please please be a bit kinder to yourself.
Mair
Posted by fallsfall on January 28, 2005, at 21:49:38
In reply to He hadn't noticed, posted by Dinah on January 28, 2005, at 20:39:40
Yes, go see him.
Think of it as an educational opportunity for you. You got a chance to "quit" and figure out how you would feel if you did that, without actually upsetting him.
Why is it that you wanted to quit?
I hate it when they know that something is up, but they don't admit that they haven't a clue what we are talking about. How often do they do that (not have a clue what we are talking about)? Do we just think they understand because they say "Uh huh" so convincingly?
But then again, they will sometimes come up with a comment that is *so* dead on. So sometimes they must be understanding...
You can't have forever therapy if you quit, you know...
Love,
Falls.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 29, 2005, at 1:23:24
In reply to He hadn't noticed, posted by Dinah on January 28, 2005, at 20:39:40
Well phew, I'm glad when you said he hadn't noticed! I mean I would have been horrified if he had heard you quit and just kind of said 'oh well, goodbye then' and let you walk out of there like that and that was that.
But how on earth did he miss that one?
Did he just assume that you weren't going to feel the same way the next day, or didn't he hear you or something?He had 'some vague awareness' you were upset with him. Well Jeepers, guys eh?
Oh Dinah. I am not meaning to make light of this. You scaired the hell out of me given what you have said about ending therapy with this t before. Really. I am so very glad that you are alive and telling us about what is going on.
Maybe your therapy has been so intense recently that he is feeling a bit drained?
I don't know.
I am so glad you are ok.
(Well I know you are not ok but I think you get what I mean).
Posted by Poet on January 29, 2005, at 1:32:10
In reply to He hadn't noticed, posted by Dinah on January 28, 2005, at 20:39:40
Hi Dinah,
You're not a worm. You're not worming your way in or out of a situation.
I think you're right that what happened doesn't matter. Maybe what matters is that he doesn't seem to want to loose you or he wouldn't want you to come in and talk to him.
How he missed that you quit, I don't know, I thought in therapy it was the clients who didn't listen to the therapist.
Let us know if you decide to go talk to him.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on January 29, 2005, at 7:27:46
In reply to Re: He hadn't noticed » Dinah, posted by Poet on January 29, 2005, at 1:32:10
It's that emotional lag time. We both knew that we had disagreed Thursday, but I didn't realize how angry I was until after the session. I think I had taken a nap in the car after session and called him after that to explain why I was angry then dozed some more. When I woke up I felt ok and went to work.
He never called me back about that because I hadn't asked him to call me back and he never calls back unless I ask him to. But apparently he really didn't understand anything I was saying. Yesterday just built up from that, but again I didn't quit until after napping a few minutes in the car. Actually I dozed during session too. I don't seem to be able to stay awake for long at all lately. I thought I was pretty clear about cancelling then, but he missed it entirely.
I guess the root of the problem was that he was laughing at me for something I thought was important. Usually I sort of like it when he laughs at me, but this time it seemed unkind given how strongly I felt.
The worm part was because more and more I'm feeling trapped, angry, and frustrated in my life because my pathological need for stability leaves me with very few real choices.
My therapist said something about my job the other day that sounded like it had promise. But when he repeated it yesterday it was the same old CBT cr*p repackaged. Positive affirmations, negative self talk, stuff like that. I guess he took the effort to not mention those words the other day. It just left me feeling hopeless. And more trapped than ever because a normal person could just walk away from their job and find a new one. And I can't. That's not the only area in my life, but one. My therapist is another.
He probably didn't hear me say I quit because he knows I can't. And the truth is I can't, all I did was scare myself.
That's why I think I'm a spineless mealworm just reacting to what's going on around me and too afraid to move. Perhaps my old shell-less skinless slug writhing in the heat but unable to get off the sidewalk is a better analogy.
Posted by mair on January 29, 2005, at 8:23:32
In reply to My fault I guess, posted by Dinah on January 29, 2005, at 7:27:46
Come on, Dinah, you know the work issue isn't easy. You have a job of convenience; it works for you in lots of ways. It provides you with the flexibility to give more time to your son and the additional income to make sure you can pay for therapy. Problematically, it also continually provides more stress than you can handle and constantly undermines your self esteem. Plus, since it makes you feel like you can't do anything well or quickly enough, and that you're a constant disappointment to the people you work with, it makes it impossible to imagine yourself actually getting another job. When you feel so awful about yourself, how are you supposed to sell your skills to another employer, or hustle jobs as a free-lancer? When you're having such a hard time just getting by, how are you supposed to take on a new responsibility, and attack a new job with any energy? Add to all that, the layer that you're actually very capable doing what you do and you work in a place with high standards where the professionals are viewed as competent. Do you really want to end up at a place where your colleagues wouldn't measure up to your own high standarts? PLUS, you get to deal with the added burden of sometimes feeling that you are merely tolerated because of your father (in my case, my husband).
AND sometimes worst of all, how do you live with the fact that you jeopardize your mental health by staying in such a toxic work environment? I sometimes reason that I must be some slug who's comfortable being depressed and really doesn't want to get well because if I had the true will to get better, I'd just quit my job. Mental Health h*ll is a bad enough place to be, but worst when you think you keep yourself there because you won't quit your job. I often wonder how it will change my life when I am able to leave my job. Will it made as much difference as I think it will? Will I suddenly no longer need therapy because I've been transformed into this totally non-depressed person?
Does any of this sound familiar?
I've often wondered whether I might find the energy to deal with a new job capably if I was in a better environment BUT isn't that a huge risk? Other people I know who left firms to start their own practices claim that being happier made all the difference in the world to their productivity. How can you be sure? What if you quit what you have because it makes you feel awful, and then discover that you've given up the one sinecure you need and have. If I took the same attitude and energy level into a new job that I bring to my current one, it would be a disaster. So then what? How do you replace the income you've lost by quitting job #1 and not being able to handle job #2? It's no small wonder that you feel frustrated and trapped. You are trapped in a way, at least for awhile.
So I know why you feel spineless, but please do acknowledge that for some of us, toxic work environments are a very complicated matter; not easily solved by simply leaving, even if we had the energy to.
Mair (who thinks she's often in the same boat with you)
Posted by Dinah on January 29, 2005, at 9:42:25
In reply to Re: My fault I guess » Dinah, posted by mair on January 29, 2005, at 8:23:32
Ah Mair, you're good for me. I wish the people around me understood the issue at a gut level. My therapist intellectually understands it, but thinks the job is good for me (because it pays his fee perhaps) and stays annoyingly positive about it.
It seems so unAmerican almost to feel trapped. It's pounded into us at such an early age that we have so many choices. I see other people making choices and being happier for it. Our office manager (who had about the same reaction to the job as I do) quit years ago and seems like a whole new person.
My therapist wants me to come up with a list of actions that will help enforce the belief that I am capable at what I do. It really made me want to punch him. I remembered just why I hated CBT so. Right now the only goal I think I have a shot at meeting is to not fall asleep while actually driving. :(
Posted by mair on January 29, 2005, at 10:26:31
In reply to Re: My fault I guess » mair, posted by Dinah on January 29, 2005, at 9:42:25
Maybe the list of actions is not to make you feel better about your current job as much as to make you feel capable enough to find another?
My T knows I'd be better off not working where I am, but she knows it's complicated also and I think we've talked about it enough for her to understand my choices are limited. She also now understands how difficult it is to control my schedule, work flow etc. I'm sure she's disappointed to figure out that there isn't that much she can do for me in this area other than be supportive and try to counter my forays into extreme distortions about my worth and job competency.
I think she's doubly disappointed that it took us years to get me to a place where I could successfully negotiate a raise with my colleagues. And it's produced none of the hoped for benefits. I'm not suffused with good feelings that I finally crossed such a tough hurdle and it hasn't done a thing for my self esteem - if anything it almost places more pressure on me to produce.
Maybe once I pull myself out of my current morass, I'll look at things differently. I'm not quite ready to abandon all hope. {-;
Mair
Posted by 64bowtie on January 29, 2005, at 11:06:03
In reply to My fault I guess, posted by Dinah on January 29, 2005, at 7:27:46
(((Dinah))),
>
> The worm part was because more and more I'm feeling trapped, angry, and frustrated in my life because my pathological need for stability leaves me with very few real choices.
>
> That's why I think I'm a spineless mealworm just reacting to what's going on around me and too afraid to move. Perhaps my old shell-less skinless slug writhing in the heat but unable to get off the sidewalk is a better analogy.>
><<< I hear you acting responsibly for your failures as you see them. That's OK with me if you see that as a worthwhile stategy guarantee yourself "a life" out of all of this. But I expect not.
I don't hear anyone at Babble, especially me even under my breath, accuse you of ever being a spineless anything. We all, to a person, report that we recogize and appreciate your power (ability to make a 'differnce') and strength (ability to withstand the 'whatever'). So, even through all your openness, and seemingly fearless vulnerability we all find attractive about you, you are keeping a secret from us! ...or we are just getting it all wrong!
That said, I for one, don't see you as a particularly vein person, but we don't get to see or understand outside of your openness. What you think of yourself is mostly vailed in your mind. So, (direct question), are you a vein person, hiding your vanity from us all? I suspect not but still I have a need to ask.
You are not a worm of any family or phylum I know of. Begging the question: "Do you think your lifew S H O U L D be better than it is? If so, are you certain it is NOT your vanity telling you that someone else you know has a better life than you, so only a 'spineless worm' would put up with the miserable life you have? Really! Who says your life is so bad? Your 'reallity check' or is it your 'vanity' talking?
These kinds of protests that our lives are 'BAD' and must be changed, seldom accomplish anything but more strife! This is vailed complaining, and you know what my standard line is with complainers; "I hear and understand your complaint. Now, what do you want?"
I'm always only a couple of paces away, right by your side!
Rod
Posted by Dinah on January 29, 2005, at 12:39:37
In reply to Re: My fault I guess » Dinah, posted by mair on January 29, 2005, at 10:26:31
You're lucky. It sounds as if she's got more realistic ideas than my therapist. He keeps pushing suggestions that would work great if there were a hundred people in my department instead of the three or so we have.
I think he mainly gets frustrated that he can't be of more help as well. Although he also got annoyed when I told him how unhelpful that CBT stuff was.
I keep telling my company to quit giving me my yearly increases, but they won't. I feel like a fraud. Especially since I take full advantage of the benefits.
Posted by Dinah on January 29, 2005, at 12:55:29
In reply to (((Dinah))), My fault I guess......?, posted by 64bowtie on January 29, 2005, at 11:06:03
I don't think my life is terrible, or that I deserve a better life. I have a great life, and I'm very fortunate.
What I wish for myself is to have the guts to leave situations that, however attractive they are in some ways, are bad for my health or my integrity or in some cases, my wallet. To have the guts to do what I know is right for me. But I don't, and knowing it's right doesn't make it something I can do. Ergo spineless.
I am complaining, but not about externals. I'm complaining about internals. I would, of course, prefer changing them. But if I could do that I wouldn't be complaining about my inability to change the things in my life I should change, which is the heart of what I'm complaining about.
Yes, I should. Now what?
Posted by antigua on January 29, 2005, at 14:19:32
In reply to He hadn't noticed, posted by Dinah on January 28, 2005, at 20:39:40
I'm kind of worried about the sleeping episodes. I know you often sleep after the sessions, but is there something else to this, this particular time? Did another part of you quit therapy and he didn't take it seriously?
Maybe you're testing him again to see if you can trust him when you need him so much right now.
Maybe you could ask him to back off on the work stuff now while you're trying to keep yourself together. I believe that you WILL change the work enivornment when you're really able to. You don't need anything else to make yourself worse right now.
Give your son an extra hug. Try to have faith that you have forever therapy as long as you
need it.
best,
antigua
Posted by Dinah on January 29, 2005, at 14:51:21
In reply to Re: He hadn't noticed » Dinah, posted by antigua on January 29, 2005, at 14:19:32
I think there may have been some testing in the subtext of what happened. I wasn't thinking it consciously. Consciously I just got mad and acted out. But subconsciously I may have been asking if he cared enough about me to mind if I quit, or if he'd be relieved and let it pass. I guess his not even noticing leaves that question unanswered. :) It makes particular sense that I was testing him within the context of the topic of the argument.
The sleeping thing. Well the neurologist thinks it's narcolepsy. I see it more as a very imperfect and poorly tuned circuit system. If this system registers that my arousal level and distress is too high, I blank out or fall asleep. Right now the switch seems to be sticking. It's flipping at lower and lower levels of arousal and failing to reset.
I figure (or maybe hope) that it's stress related and that eventually it'll start working more efficiently. Of course, I don't expect the stress to abate for months. And the more I sleep the longer it'll take for the stress to go away.
I don't know what to do about it though. Cutting down on carbohydrates didn't stop the problem, and neither did taking Provigil regularly.
It's a mighty powerful system. I wish I had it under my control. :)
Actually, in retrospect, falling asleep in session was sort of funny. I dozed off the way I do, and when I finally woke up, about five minutes later, I guess, he asked what I had been thinking about. He had mistaken it for being deep in thought!! When I told him what happened he said that he was flattered that I would feel comfortable enough with him to fall asleep. lol. I answered that I could sleep for free at home and could he please wake me up next time?
Posted by gardenergirl on January 29, 2005, at 20:25:09
In reply to Sleeping » antigua, posted by Dinah on January 29, 2005, at 14:51:21
Dinah,
It sounds like therapy is just as intense as life is right now. I'm sorry that his attempts to help are falling flat. Perhaps the CBT stuff will help on some level if you are also getting what you need. What do you think you want from him instead of CBT stuff? How can he help right now?(I suppose noticing your being distressed enough to quit might be a start...)
gg
Posted by sunny10 on January 31, 2005, at 10:51:57
In reply to Sleeping » antigua, posted by Dinah on January 29, 2005, at 14:51:21
you said, "I answered that I could sleep for free at home and could he please wake me up next time?"
Great to know you still have complete control over your sense of humor, anyway- good for you.
By the way, although said in humor, this statement PROVES that you are not spineless. That statement was self-promoting no matter how cute it was. (Also shows me that you have great communication skills!)
As far as quitting the job goes, I don't see that there is ever any one "right" way to go on that one. The only thing that came to mind when I was reading your thread was when I was going through similar work & family & emotional bad times, my T always told me to remember one thing, "no matter where you go, there YOU are". She said that if I worked on one problem at a time, the outcome would be less stress in more than one facet of my life. And of course, she added, that unless I worked through my issues, I wouldn't be any happier somewhere else (be it workplace, physical locale, relationships- either starting one/ending one, whichever).
I am only just starting to deal with my inner issues rather than run from them- so I guess I'm starting to believe it a little bit.
Hope that helps a tiny bit. And I hope that T works with you on this "maybe narcolepsy" issue with you. It reminds me of when my son was an infant- overstimulation (stress) made him fall asleep no matter how noisy/bright it was when he was sleeping, so I definitely agree when you say it might be more stress-related than narcoleptic.
Big ((((((((((((((((((((((DINAH))))))))))))))))))'s,
Sunny10
Posted by judy1 on January 31, 2005, at 12:27:06
In reply to Re: My fault I guess » Dinah, posted by mair on January 29, 2005, at 8:23:32
as someone who has been in a 'toxic' work environment and finally crashed and burned- I do understand how difficult it is to summon the courage to leave job#1 to go to job#2. I wish I could tell you I was able to do it, but honestly it wasn't until I broke down and it was done for me. I don't have any magic words to encourage you to improve your environment, but I would hope that you and Dinah never get to the point that I did. I've been reminded recently how very short life is with the loss of my brother, and how we need to allow ourselves to enjoy our time on earth. I can tell you that after my 'break' and leaving that awful, awful job- I felt like a huge weight was removed from me. did my depression leave? actually, yes- but not until I had severed all ties with my job. I was so traumatized that I left all my personal belongings there- photos, books, plants- I refused to answer the phone when my ex-boss called (and he was a good guy) and finally did get a package with some of my belongings. I am fortunate that I don't have to work, that I'm able to get by with social security and my husband's health benefits (medicare is okay in my state since you can get an HMO instead with prescription benefits) and that I get to spend my unreliable energy with my children. I have learned not to expect much from therps, when I have truly needed the support it was never enough from them and I now realize I was unrealistic in what they can provide. all this is a learning experience and one I have survived. I know that you and Dinah will survive too, and I hope that your journey will not be as traumatizing as mine was- but I do hope you can reach the peace I have found.
take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on January 31, 2005, at 12:32:12
In reply to Sleeping » antigua, posted by Dinah on January 29, 2005, at 14:51:21
do you think you may be dissociating (instead of sleeping)? I ask because it is what I do under great stress, and it may appear that I'm sleeping. have you ever had an EEG done in this state?
take care, judy
Posted by fallsfall on January 31, 2005, at 12:50:47
In reply to Re: My fault I guess » mair, posted by judy1 on January 31, 2005, at 12:27:06
Hi Judy,
I am on SSDI and about to sign up for Medicare. Does Medicare pay for your therapy (or has it in the past)? If so, could you respond on my thread above http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20050122/msgs/447601.html ?
Thanks,
Falls.
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 9:24:00
In reply to Re: Sleeping » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on January 29, 2005, at 20:25:09
I talked to him about the CBT yesterday. I told him the key was not to mention any of the CBT words like negative self talk or positive affirmations. Especially positive affirmations. I turn off instantly when I hear those words, and may in fact miss the bit of value they may contain.
I especially hate positive affirmations. He won't let me make them reasonable and believable, so that saying them just sets off an echo of derisive snorts and eye rolling.
He says that he, like me, has trouble finding alternate words sometimes. :) Sweet of him to personalize it like that. I like that about him. I told him he managed it the first day, that I had confidence he could do it again.
As far as not noticing. It's not like him. I think I've been difficult to understand lately. He told me yesterday that he didn't remember laughing at what I had said the other day (prompting my quitting), but that if he had, it was probably in stress or anxiety. Which means I've been stressing him and making him anxious lately. :( He's also mentioned a few times that he has been having trouble understanding what I'm saying.
I don't *feel* like I've suddenly lost the ability to be articulate, but that's certainly been the feedback I've been getting. (Just see admin. lol.)
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 9:39:31
In reply to Re: Sleeping » Dinah, posted by sunny10 on January 31, 2005, at 10:51:57
lol. I see myself as being not terribly assertive, but sooner or later I'm going to have to adjust my self-concept through sheer weight of evidence. :)
I'm very grateful though to feel like I can be that honest with him.
My work problems are pretty straightforward in one way at least. It's objectively a high stress job that generally people either thrive on or crash and burn early and leave. I didn't do either. My love of working with my Daddy sort of prevented the normal course of the job from flowing. But with my health problems, and brain chemistry, it's objectively a bad job for me. The stress and deadlines are bad for other people who have diabetes as well. (Part of my problems with my boss are due to his diabetes and the resulting mood changes that come from stress and sugar level on his side.) The necessary irregular work and sleep cycles are objectively bad for both my migraines and my brain chemistry, which is a tad bipolarish. Late nights provoke strong mood changes, and I think it's purely biological.
I don't have any illusions that I'll be happier elsewhere, perhaps even less happy because life changes are huge stressors for me and tend to provoke enormous flareups of my depression and/or anxiety disorders. I've never had another job. I am used to these people and don't consider dealing with them overly stressful the way getting to know people I haven't known since childhood would be. So changing jobs would also be bad for me.
Straightforward. But straightforward in both directions. :)
It astonishes me that my neurologist doesn't get the connection between overstimulation and sleep. Unless that's a normal part of narcolepsy too, which it doesn't seem to be. Maybe I'm not explaining myself well to him, especially since English isn't his first language. I tend to use idiosyncratic language patterns and that may be difficult for him especially. However, I'd have been unable to work at all the last few months without Provigil, so his beliefs are to my benefit. My psychiatrist wouldn't have prescribed Provigil to me in a million years.
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