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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by thewrite1 on August 23, 2004, at 14:18:25
I'm at a strange place in therapy. I feel like I'm not getting what I need, but I don't know. Maybe I'm just asking too much? I spoke with my T about a misunderstanding that happened long ago (I posted about it in Worst T moments thread), and it didn't go all that well. I don't really feel any better about it than before. I think I wanted her to say she was sorry for the tone she took with me during said misunderstanding, but she didn't. She never apoligizes for anything. I'm sure she's trying to get me to understand that other people are not responsible for our feelings or something. I realize that, but I also think if we all went around acting however with no regard for anyone else's feelings, that would be bad. She said I'm sensitive. Duh. I took that to be a bad thing and she said it wasn't and bah, I guess it was just a bad session.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 17:14:14
In reply to not getting what I need/asking too much, posted by thewrite1 on August 23, 2004, at 14:18:25
Some, but I'll bet not all, therapists give this impression. Mine did too. He never apologized for anything, everything was supposed to be a reflection of myself. At times it was infuriating. I think these therapists try really hard to be a blank slate, and the reason it doesn't work is (a) some of us really *are* hypervigilant, and (b) no one is a blank slate. It's an act. It *has* to be an act, but sometimes the real person comes through; the therapist's challenge, I think, is knowing when the real self has snuck through and affected the patient/therapist relationship. I think when the therapist is confronted by a client about this when it occurs, he or she has a responsibility to face it honestly, or trust breaks down. I really didn't like it when my therapist refused to be introspective. You did the right thing in talking to your therapist about this, write1. Hopefully she'll see how she's messing with your mind by being dishonest about it. But that's only my opinion and I'm known to be wrong quite often ...
Posted by thewrite1 on August 23, 2004, at 22:34:08
In reply to Some therapists » thewrite1, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 17:14:14
Yes, yes, yes. It's like EVERYTHING is transference or at least has something to do with something that happened before. I would like to scream at her sometimes, but I know she just be like, "so who else has done that to you in your life?" It really does make me crazy.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 23:24:21
In reply to Re: Some therapists » Susan47, posted by thewrite1 on August 23, 2004, at 22:34:08
Write1, I've just been thinking (ahem) while reading our posts here (I mean this thought *has* occurred to me before but I put it away and now I need to take it out again) but what if we were to go into therapy saying to ourselves, (and really believing it) "The therapist's stuff is his or her stuff; there will be times when our stuff overlaps, and when it does we will need to talk about that." That sounds like a really good therapist/client agreement to me. I like it and I'm going to take it with me. Any therapist who doesn't agree isn't mine.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 23:28:21
In reply to Re: Some therapists, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 23:24:21
If I do therapy again; I wouldn't mind *being* a therapist. Ever wonder why male therapists look even younger than their other-profession counterparts????
Does it have something to do with constant attention from others? Ew, now I'm mean, no?
Posted by shortelise on August 24, 2004, at 0:47:11
In reply to Re: Some therapists, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 23:28:21
imagine Being The Therapist.
You sit in a room acutely observed by nutcases all day long.
They accuse you of all sorts of nasty stuff.
Half the time they hate you, half the time they love you.
They tell you horror stories.
They remember your license plate number if they saw you in your car one time.
You can't wear sandals because they stare at your toes.
You can't wear shorts in the hottest weather because they'll stare at your knees.
Heaven forbid you should look like dirt because of a bad night - they'll be convinced, one after another, all day, that you hate them and wish they were dead.
I'd way rather be on this side of the room.
If I were in therapy with a person who could not humble herself to apologize, I'd have real trouble with that T. It's been an essential part of therapy for me; we've been able to discuss wrongs we have each done to the other, and both have made apologies. Like any other relationship, I think it's important to talk about the things that go badly, and "make up".
I think if it were me, I'd go back with an apology of my own: T, I am sorry if last time I badly approached the subject of the contretemps we had a few months ago. I did not mean to (whatever). It's just that I very much need you to understand how that event affected me, and I feel that if you did understand, you would apologize. I feel disrespected.
What I would need to know is if her refusal to apologoze was about me or about her. Is there some therapeutic reason for her pride on this point? Is she trying to teach you some therapeutic lesson here? Could you ask her these things?
Of course, I would weep through most of that little speech, but hey, I'm a psychiatric patient. :-)
ShortE
Posted by lookdownfish on August 24, 2004, at 7:04:46
In reply to ew?, posted by shortelise on August 24, 2004, at 0:47:11
Posted by Susan47 on August 24, 2004, at 10:43:09
In reply to ew?, posted by shortelise on August 24, 2004, at 0:47:11
That was beautiful. Exactly how I've imagined it must be for a T, LOL and weep. I love the one about your license plate, that was too funny. Those poor people, if that's true. Gosh, I wonder if that's why my ex-T keeps his head down in public. Ew. Poor guy. Yuck. Okay, gross really. No wonder he has a passive, I-never-saw-you-don't-look-at-me-either face. I would not like that for myself. No way.
Posted by JenStar on August 24, 2004, at 11:22:34
In reply to ew?, posted by shortelise on August 24, 2004, at 0:47:11
cool post, shortelise! It gave me lots to think about. I like the way you were able to imagine being in a T's shoes and empathize with the difficulties they must face.
I agree that an appropriate apology should be given if needed. Perhaps some T's are under-confident or feel that giving an apology would be tantamount to giving up control or showing weakness?
I remember in the movie U571 (bear with me, this will get back to therapy!) the captain told his right hand man never to show signs of fear or indecision; it won't make the men like you better, it will just let them know you're not capable and in-charge.
Maybe a T feels the same way -- that they ALWAYS have to have the answers, that short term an apology will be well-accepted but long-term it would be seen as a weakness?
Still, though, I see it as a sign of strength. I too wouldn't want to see a T who was unable to ever 'give' a bit.
JenStar
Posted by Susan47 on August 24, 2004, at 11:24:31
In reply to Re: ew? » shortelise, posted by JenStar on August 24, 2004, at 11:22:34
Thanks so much for posting today: you're giving me some much-needed perspective. You guys are great.
Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2004, at 20:03:07
In reply to Re: ew? » shortelise, posted by JenStar on August 24, 2004, at 11:22:34
One of my therapist's best qualities, and one of the reasons I stuck it out with him, is that he's completely capable of saying "I screwed up. Let's see how we can fix this." I couldn't have a therapist who couldn't do that. I do it myself, and I expect at least that much from him.
But I've certainly seen mental health professionals who seem to have a constitutional inability to admit to error.
Posted by tabitha on August 25, 2004, at 1:32:15
In reply to Re: ew?, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2004, at 20:03:07
Mine is one of those never-admit-error types. Once after I'd quit therapy for 2 months, she referred to herself as "less than perfect". That's the closest I've gotten.
I don't understand it either. Maybe it's part of her whole nobody-is-right-or-wrong-we-just-have-different-perspectives thing. Like she thinks it's bad for my mental health to think in terms of right and wrong anyway, so she's certainly not going to call herself wrong.
So, since I can't totally give up right/wrong thinking, I end up with a choice between being wrong myself or being contantly angry that she's wrong and won't admit it. No wonder therapy feels so awful lately.
Posted by Dinah on August 25, 2004, at 9:09:23
In reply to Re: ew?, posted by tabitha on August 25, 2004, at 1:32:15
:(
But perhaps she has many other fine and useful qualities? I think that would be a deal breaker with me, but I would have thought my therapist's career instability and frequent trips away would be a deal breaker too. I would have never started with him if I knew - that's for sure. I guess it's harder to leave than it is never to start, and I don't suppose they'll include "never will admit to being wrong" in that little sheet they give you when you meet them.
Posted by Susan47 on August 25, 2004, at 11:17:34
In reply to Re: ew? » tabitha, posted by Dinah on August 25, 2004, at 9:09:23
Maybe we're expected to not look up to them as much as we do? My therapist would say things like, "I don't know everything". In general, he had no qualms about saying he was human; when it came to specifics, though, he was quiet as a mouse. I saw manipulation in that and didn't like it one bit. I know it affected my therapy, because I started being less honest too, I started hiding more stuff.
Posted by DaisyM on August 25, 2004, at 12:10:31
In reply to not getting what I need/asking too much, posted by thewrite1 on August 23, 2004, at 14:18:25
I think sometimes what we want is to be gratified (that we are right) and made feel warm and fuzzy and our Therapist's job is to make us explore why we feel what we feel and why we want what we want. I remember telling my Therapist about a really bad day, that I was upset, etc. He wanted to know why such and such made me feel that way. I sort of yelled at him that "da** it! I don't want to "explore it." I just want you to be sympathetic and make me feel better." He stopped and said, "OK, such and such is just being a Bit**." I was shocked and then laughed and laughed. Then, of course, we had to talk about what I needed and wanted from him and what he thought his job was.
I think you might need to have the same conversation. I like the suggestion of being brutally honest about wanting an apology from her and asking why she doesn't feel the need to give one. She might be surprised by how intensely you are being effected by this. When I get to these places, I always remember what FallsFall told me: "If your response feels extreme or maybe out of proportion to the event (this WAS months ago), you need to look at what is being triggered." Everything isn't transference. But transference is heavily studied because it DOES happen...and by definition we don't often see it for what it is.That said, I don't think you can ask too much from your Therapist. Because it is their job to hold the therapeutic frame tight and say "no" when they need to, but not be upset with you for honestly asking or expressing anything. I know it is so upsetting when you feel like there is a rift in your relationship. But fixing it will be worth it.
Posted by thewrite1 on August 25, 2004, at 14:36:15
In reply to ew?, posted by shortelise on August 24, 2004, at 0:47:11
Yes I can imagine what it must be like to be a T. Mine seems very much unaffected by everything, and I also understand that. If she took all our problems home with her, then she'd never get any sleep.
She does acknowledge my feelings. "I understand that was hurtful to you" or "I hear how that has affected you."I really do feel that she's trying to teach me something here. I say I'm sorry if the wind blows too hard. I feel like EVERYTHING is my fault, so maybe by not apologizing she's trying to get me to stop doing it so much?
I don't know I could guess about it all day. I think you guys are right. I will bring this up at our next session. Thanks so much for all your input.
Posted by Susan47 on August 25, 2004, at 14:38:39
In reply to Re: not getting what I need/asking too much » thewrite1, posted by DaisyM on August 25, 2004, at 12:10:31
I like your perspective. Where are you write1, what do you think about all this?
Posted by Susan47 on August 25, 2004, at 14:42:31
In reply to Re: ew? » shortelise, posted by thewrite1 on August 25, 2004, at 14:36:15
I agree with you write1 and I'm also wondering if therapists are trying to be role models for us sometimes. So if you're the kind of person who's always apologizing then maybe she makes a point of not doing that. I don't know, just a thought. I suppose if a therapist went around apologizing about everything all day long then that would hurt his/her self-esteem too. You know what it's like to hear your own voice saying negative things about yourself, don't we all? Hmm.
Posted by Susan47 on August 25, 2004, at 14:45:28
In reply to Ah we posted simultaneously, posted by Susan47 on August 25, 2004, at 14:42:31
No I think I'm wrong. Why would an apology to a client be a negative thing?
Posted by thewrite1 on August 25, 2004, at 14:45:53
In reply to Re: write1 » DaisyM, posted by Susan47 on August 25, 2004, at 14:38:39
Sorry. I have a six month old, so sometimes it takes me awhile to get back to a thread...
Posted by Susan47 on August 25, 2004, at 17:43:58
In reply to Re: write1 » Susan47, posted by thewrite1 on August 25, 2004, at 14:45:53
Six month-olds are so cute.
Posted by shortelise on August 26, 2004, at 0:21:56
In reply to Re: write1 » Susan47, posted by thewrite1 on August 25, 2004, at 14:45:53
T's do something that might be called modeling in some kinds of therapy. They try to teach us ways of being and reacting by being and reacting that way.
BUT BUT BUT - this is not what all T's do! If a T is a jerk, that does not mean we should be jerks, it means that T is a jerk. ANd veryone has bad days - that's where it is so important that we talk about things.
Write1, that your T said she can understand why you might have felt that way/been affected that way - that's empathy. And it is wonderful to get empathy, isn't it? But I agree that to bring it up again could be helpful. If it were me, I'd have to! I would absolutely have to UNDERSTAND why my therapist did not feel it necessary to apologize.
But you know, as I think about it, I wonder if my T has actually apologized ever ... I know he has for sure said things like "it was not my intention to hurt you" or "I was wrong to have said that" or "I said something last time I shouldn't have" - along those lines.
I wonder if "I'm sorry" is cheap words. That's bad grammar, but you maybe get what I mean.
Hmm... Now I wonder. I am going to have to ask him about this.
ShortE
Posted by Susan47 on August 26, 2004, at 9:23:22
In reply to Re: write1, posted by shortelise on August 26, 2004, at 0:21:56
Hi Shortelise, I think "I'm sorry" is cheap words. My exT has said it to me and it certainly doesn't sound sincere coming from him.
This is the end of the thread.
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