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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DaisyM on July 1, 2004, at 21:35:18
I've been isolating myself and working hard to deal with all the memories that have been coming up. I've even skipped work, which is rare for me. My Therapist has encouraged me to try to enlist my husband's help by explaining to him more of what is going on with me. We don't talk much about what goes on in therapy - he has his own load to deal with. So, an opening presented itself last night and I told him that I'm a wreck because I'm trying not only to deal with all the challenges now, but I'm finding I need to sort through the past as well, to make sense of things. My husband completely disagreed, said he could see no real reason to "stir it up inside you" since it was so very old and didn't matter anymore. His wise words: "Lots of people have bad childhoods, let it go. And if this is what therapy is doing for you, let that go too." UMMM...no.
So in discussing it today, IN THERAPY, I tried to honestly assess what the benefits were for sorting through all of this, the real question being, do I have a choice? Should I put away these memories of abuse and violence and neglect, and "just" deal with my here and now life? (My Therapist, btw, is very clear that he thinks stuffing it all away is a very bad idea and an old coping mechanism. But he said he is willing to hear an argument around whether it is a "choice" or not.)
So the writing assignment is to reflect on the choice of talking about the past in therapy. Is there a benefit to this? I know whole books have been written about this question and whole theraputic orientations argue it. But individual stories always help me the best. So, anyone willing to share their views? I want to think about it some more before I share mine.
Posted by shadows721 on July 1, 2004, at 22:27:57
In reply to Homework - A tough one., posted by DaisyM on July 1, 2004, at 21:35:18
Daisy,
I am speaking from my own experience. I don't know how long you have been in tx for this. In the earlier years, I tried to get my hubby and family as supporters. That went really sour. I am not saying your's can't be of support for you later on. I am just saying that mine never worked out like I needed. I found out that NOBODY understands or can understand what I went through as a kid and how much it has shaped me today.
I have been told the gammit. "Read the Bible, Shadows." "Are you sure you are remembering this right, Shadows?" "You must forgive and forget, Shadows". "Your living too much in the past, Shadows". "You need to put this in the past and move on, Shadows". "You need to give this over to God, Shadows". "Oh, he couldn't have done that. YOU WERE only a baby." "Why didn't you tell?" "Where were your parents." "We watched you, this couldn't have happened." "Why didn't he do that to me?" "You think your childhood was bad, I saw X on tv today."
After all those comments, I kept the abuse memories to myself and my T. This is what I had to do to protect my own sanity. Of course, I would have loved for this to be different. Family of abuse are usually in heavy denial any way. Mom and Dad were good parents. The siblings weren't abused either. Yes, your all perfect family.
Those comments were truly sending me into a rage. I knew my flashbacks were the truth! I could hear that lying abuser's voice ringing true today. "Go ahead and tell, Shadows. No one is going to believe you anyway. Ha ha ha ha ha" In away, he was right. This is the thing. It's not they don't want to believe you. They don't want to believe adults do things to children like this. However, everytime I asked any question to the family of something they owned or did over 30 years ago. It was validated. "How can you remember that?" As the years went on, stories of what he did to adults and children starting popping up and my mother and the others starting really taking me more seriously.
I find your supporters are fellow survivors and therapists. To me, they are the only ones that truly understand. At times, I had to be hospitalized for I was overwhelmed with memories. I had one T in the hospital want me to tell my mother what my father did. That experience was devestating. My mother refused to believe it. As the years went on, she gradually excepted it.
As far as putting it behind you thing, I feel it is definately apart of who I am today. It shaped how I see others, how I react, how I think of myself, to name a few. There's not a way to put that away. To believe that would be believing the abusers voice when confronted, "It didn't happen." I believe people can stuff it down, drown in drugs/alcohol, starve it, eat it, cut it, keep busy, hide in a belief system, and run from it, but that works temporarily.
This is your hx. You are a survivor. This is a process that is going to continue. We can't stop flashbacks. We can't stop remembering. This is a condition that has been set in motion. It can't really be put back down permanantly. It will just pop right back up. It usually pops up when we aren't expecting it anyway.
Now, I think. To heck with what anyone thinks, NO ONE was there for me then. But, I will sure heck be there for me today. I will honor me by respecting myself and allowing this past to present itself however my mind chooses.
Posted by karen_kay on July 1, 2004, at 22:49:08
In reply to Homework - A tough one., posted by DaisyM on July 1, 2004, at 21:35:18
daisy dear,
if i hadn't talked about my childhood, i'd still be terrified to shower, afraid of leaving my house, have the feeling that something is coming to get me, be so nervous i couldn't vacuum without staring at a mirror (again, to make sure something is coming to get me), not be a year away from school and most importantly, i never would have made peace with the past!!!!
should you do it? yes, as you can handle it. don't try to dredge up things that you aren't ready to yet (and they have a way of telling you when they NEED to get out). don't try to sit around for hours and think about things. but, don't ignore the things that you need to settle in your mind, or one day you may turn into what i was... a nervous wreck...
one good thing i realized is learn from the past, talk about it as it affects your life now.. it didn't help me to talk about it, just to talk about it. it helped me to talk about it as it affected my everyday life right now. know that what happened in the past happened then, and by noticing your behavior now, you can change how you feel now. you can't change how you felt then, but you don't have to live your life in fear, anger, shame or guilt right now. the past is the past, but it also plays a very important role in your future. this i learned firsthand. and that's one of the most important lessons i've ever learned.
Posted by gardenergirl on July 1, 2004, at 23:41:09
In reply to Homework - A tough one., posted by DaisyM on July 1, 2004, at 21:35:18
Daisy,
My supervisor and I would have long talks about this. He is very CBT, and I am very NOT CBT. He wants to focus on what's going on now, and how to correct/handle it. I feel like that is like learning how to put on a bandaid or use a device to compensate if your joints are too painful. What I like about working through past hurts and issues is that I would much rather heal the wound or the underlying cause of the pain, rather than learning what to do to make it feel better in the short term. Because IMO, it's going to keep coming back. What if you run out of bandaids?gg
Posted by partlycloudy on July 2, 2004, at 6:56:02
In reply to Homework - A tough one., posted by DaisyM on July 1, 2004, at 21:35:18
My EMDR therapist and I talked about this, as the process I'm going through with her is all about looking at the past and the emotional reaction you have to it, and becoming able to process those feelings, incorporate them into yourself, and be able to go forward without being "haunted". I said I couldn't understand how some people can compartmentalize their minds; be really saddened or angry about one thing, but not have it affect the other areas of their life.
To my mind, when something is haunting me, it ripples throughout my whole being. It affects my sleep, my digestive process, causes excrutiating headaches. The T said that when she hears about people who say they can compartmentalize or "not think" about something, it sends up a red flag to her.
Your writing homework is a difficult but very helpful exercise. Don't try to make it flow or have a beginning or an end. The important thing is to get it out.
As other posters have said, I have stopped trying to enlist the support of my family. They did not have the same experiences as I did, and are frankly befuddled by what I'm going through. I was exasperated by trying to explain my memories, what I was going through then and now, and it made me feel worse that they weren't able to understand. So I just keep it to me, my T's, and Babble.
You know we're always here for you.
Posted by fallsfall on July 2, 2004, at 7:19:32
In reply to Homework - A tough one., posted by DaisyM on July 1, 2004, at 21:35:18
I'll try to come back and post more about this later, but here are my immediate thoughts.
I spent 8 1/2 years in CBT. We talked about the past a little and I tried to intellectually understand how it was effecting the way I think, react and behave now. But this wasn't enough. It simply wasn't enough.
I'm with Gardenergirl - you can put bandaids (and tourniquets) on. And, don't get me wrong, I think that it is essential to do this and to know how to do this and to know when to do this. I *needed* those first aid skills. But sometimes you are hurt so badly that the school nurse can't fix it with a bandaid and some Tylenol. Sometimes you have to go to the hospital and have a surgeon cut you open. The surgeon is going to hurt you more than the school nurse, I will grant you that. But if you *don't* get the *real* problem addressed, it will make you sick and incapacitated for the rest of your (shortened) life. Sorry to be so blunt - I am hurting this morning - I feel like my surgeon has caused arterial bleeding... You *DO* HAVE the choice to not go to the surgeon, but (for me and for you, specifically) I don't think that is a wise choice.
People who say "Just leave it in the past" have indigestion. They *CAN* leave it in the past. They have discomfort come up now and then, but it isn't something they can't tolerate, and it goes away and they have long periods of feeling just fine. Some of us (I believe that you and I fit into this category) have bleeding ulcers or cancer in our stomachs. The *quality* of the pain is different, and the danger to our ability to *live* is different from those with indigestion. They have never experienced what we have. Their solution works fine for them, because their problem is different.
I would love to just pretend that life was fine and have it be so. But I have an appointment with my surgeon in an hour. Let's hope he has some clamps handy - I'm having a hard time telling my heart to stop pumping blood out of the wound, I really need his help.
Posted by gardenergirl on July 2, 2004, at 8:49:07
In reply to Re: Homework - A tough one. » DaisyM, posted by fallsfall on July 2, 2004, at 7:19:32
Posted by daisym on July 2, 2004, at 18:36:34
In reply to Homework - A tough one., posted by DaisyM on July 1, 2004, at 21:35:18
Thank you for the thoughtful replies and your own experiences. My thoughts after reading all:
First Question: Can you choose to ignore your personal history? My immediate answer is "yes" I did it for a very long time. I recognized uncomfortable feelings whenever anyone mentioned csa, talk shows, trainings, etc. But my reaction to those feelings was typically a deep breath and then anger at whomever was talking about it. I always thought, "put it away. Get over it. I did." I also thought I had developed into the highly competent person "inspite of" what happened, not "because of." Again, choosing to move up and beyond. So, yes, I think you can choose to ignore it.
But the better question is: "Can you choose to not let it affect you?" Here I would have to say no. After a year of therapy, I can now see how many choices I've made, things done and not done, were directly the result of my childhood. It's not all bad of course. I'm strong in so many ways. But the shut down of feelings, with the major exception being my children, means I missed a lot too. And certainly these overwhelming feelings of anxiety, the bad dreams and the intrusive memories are affecting me.
Does going back into the past make it "worse?" Sometimes. But I guess I agree with the Band-Aid analogy. You can help a wound heal with a Band-Aid. If it isn't too deep, doesn't get infected and if your immune system is working correctly. But if all those things aren't in place, one wound can lead to the whole body getting sick. I think that is what happened with me. My child developed anxiety, I became distraught about trying to help him, that wound wouldn't heal so I had to look at the underlying system to see what needed to be "fixed" so all of me could heal. I guess I just didn't expect to find out what bad shape my psychological immune system was in. Sometimes I don't think I have enough Band-Aids at home. I have, in fact, asked my therapist for therapy-Novocain, aspirin for therapy-hangovers and psychological Band-Aids. (Last time I asked for the Band-Aid he ripped off a small piece of paper, wrote on it and handed it to me. It was his phone number. Such a smart a**! ) I think the biggest benefit of connecting the past to the present is that I can predict better how I'm likely to react to something or someone. I am starting to realize that there are distinct ego states that have their own needs and wants. I don't know how to sort this out yet, or give everyone in my head what they want, but at least I have a language for the struggle.
But the ultimate goal of this exercise was for me to decide if continuing to work on these really old feelings was worth the present day disruption. I'm still phrasing like I have a choice, aren't I? I guess that is why my therapist wanted me to look at the question first, "Do you have a choice?" I'm realizing that the choice is in HOW I work on this stuff. In order to feel better, I can see that I need to work on it. I need to allow it to surface so that I don't keep getting broadsided by it and then share it so I'm not so alone in it.
I think what is shifting for me is whom I choose to share it with. For whatever reason, the need for real-life support has been strong this past month. I WANTED to share this with a close friend, and to make my husband understand just how distressing it is and how lonely I feel sometimes trying to deal with it. Neither of those attempts turned out the way I had hoped. But neither were complete catastrophes either. I don't feel so alone now. But, I think I have some work to do around what this sudden need was about (I've got my bet on the old "it's too much for my therapist" fear...but there could be other reasons.)
I'm ready to pull back for a while. I'm not saying I'm "done" looking at the past stuff, (besides it intrudes at will). But I think I will take some of the advice given here and limit sharing to my therapist and Babble friends.
Posted by pinkeye on July 6, 2004, at 17:13:45
In reply to Re: Homework - A tough one., posted by daisym on July 2, 2004, at 18:36:34
I think the right answer is a good amount of doing both.
I don't think you will be able to evolve into a full blown personality without addressing all the unresolved issues of the past.
At the same time, too much dwelling on the past and trying to heal each and every hurt in the past will not do you good as well.
The key is a right combination of both. Addressing the past, reliving some of the most hurtful experiences and being able to get comfort now, and then after sufficient amount of venting, being able to let go and focussing on the present.
A wise therapist should be able to guide you through both of it. He should be able to help you with the past and then teach you the techniques on how to cope up with the present and move on.
Pinkeye.
Posted by B2chica on July 7, 2004, at 10:53:21
In reply to Re: Homework - A tough one., posted by shadows721 on July 1, 2004, at 22:27:57
>>I have been told the gammit. "Read the Bible, Shadows." "Are you sure you are remembering this right, Shadows?"... "We watched you, this couldn't have happened." "You think your childhood was bad, I saw X on tv today."
Although slightly different experiences for me, EVERYTHING you say above is EXACTLY what i imagine people saying to me if i ever talk.
-it's my nightmare said aloud.>>As far as putting it behind you thing, I feel it is definately apart of who I am today...can stuff it down, drown in drugs/alcohol, starve it, eat it, cut it, keep busy, hide in a belief system, and run from it, but that works temporarily.
-YEP! maybe right about this temp thing but it is working for me (sort of) right now...that's ok right? My T is trying to get me to stop cutting and keeps talking about it but he thought that what i talked about friday was my (1)issue. HA-i've got many, many more and i am NOT ready to STOP!!!!
>>We can't stop flashbacks. We can't stop remembering. This is a condition that has been set in motion. It can't really be put back down permanantly. It will just pop right back up. It usually pops up when we aren't expecting it anyway.SHadows, i read this and you have me in tears. PLEASE tell me it's not true. I'm fighting these damn visuals that make me cringe and literally close my eyes and push back cuz i want to get away from them...i've done this infront of a few people now and i cover with excuses but PLEASE...i've GOT TO STOP THESE memory visuals crap things!!!
> Now, I think. To heck with what anyone thinks, NO ONE was there for me then. But, I will sure heck be there for me today.D@mn Straight!!!!!!
b2c.
Posted by shadows721 on July 7, 2004, at 19:08:48
In reply to please shadows.....no more flashbacks. » shadows721, posted by B2chica on July 7, 2004, at 10:53:21
B2,
I have been there and I still have problems. I go to sleep hearing that ***'s voice. GEES! Now, I just don't tell everything I remember to my family. I used to, but I learned my lesson the hard way.
It seems the more you run from the memories, the more force they have. I was once told that my memories and flashbacks were to come up only in therapy. HA! I've never had that happen.
My little people (the littles that give memories) work like in a 24/7 Santa Shop. They present themselves like presents anywhere and everywhere but, they NEVER come up in T.
B2, I have read that it helps to write down these things in a journal and close the journal on it. I have read nice children's books before bed. I have literally had to treat myself like a child before bed and it does help.
Check list includes:
Night light
Blanket
Sloothing music
stuffed animal
real living furry animal
medications
children books
journal
flashlight (just in case lights go off :)Creativity does help too. Painting, coloring, exericising, eating right is part of the course.
Has your T worked with you on containment and safe place work? It's part of this trauma work too. There no way but to go through it, but you can have some tools to help it lesson the load.
Posted by B2chica on July 8, 2004, at 11:41:30
In reply to Re: please shadows.....no more flashbacks., posted by shadows721 on July 7, 2004, at 19:08:48
Shadows, i'm SO sorry you learned this hard lesson. My heart TRULY goes out to you.
>>It seems the more you run from the memories, the more force they have. I was once told that my memories and flashbacks were to come up only in therapy. HA! I've never had that happen.
-mine mostly occur during the day, sometimes later at night but mostly during the day. this s@cks cuz i could be at work or at home around people and it happens so fast with no warning that i usually cringe and "push back" (don't know how else to describe that) usually if someone's around i just say "this bug about flew in my eye!" (usually works) i laugh abit to, to lighten the mood. Believe me i've had YEARS of practice covering up my REAL feelings so it's no prob for me to cover this up.
although i'm still pretty new to this i've also NEVER had them come up during T session. infact normally the new ones come out late that night After my session. (during my normal stupid delayed breakdown.)
>>B2, I have read that it helps to write down these things in a journal and close the journal on it.this sounds like it would work but i could NEVER write these down as i would NEVER want proof that any of this EVER happened. Until this year most of this i didn't even remember. and i have a husband that does not respect my privacy and i could NEVER risk ANYONE reading it...EVER.
> Check list includes:
> Night light
> Blanket
> Sloothing music
> stuffed animal
> real living furry animal
> medications
> children books
> journal
> flashlight (just in case lights go off :)>>Has your T worked with you on containment and safe place work?
No, but i finally mentioned these "flashbacks just yesterday morning to him. He asked if they were from what we've already talked about or other stuff. and i froze up and couldn't answer.(i didn't want to lie, but i didn't want to admit it either). so i think he thought all my stuff was out and he's just now realized i have more. So maybe i'll take what you've said with me next week and ask him "containment" or anything that can help control these things. I HATE THEM, i am So Utterly disgusted by some of the pictures that they make me sick to my stomach. that inside i'm screaming "NO!!! i'm making that up, i've NEVER seen that! That Wasn't ME!.. Not True, not true, not true!
thank you for the checklist. It seems that i've had this weird waves of fear and sometimes i lay down on my bed and i literally can't move, i'm afraid to move! so maybe i can have some of this stuff to help with that feeling of fear too?
Thanks for the advice Shadows.
b2c.
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