![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 38. Go back in thread:
Posted by 64bowtie on May 9, 2004, at 14:49:21
In reply to Re: Re: Bellyaching etal, posted by finelinebob on May 9, 2004, at 14:25:59
>
> ;^)
>
>
> If you ask me, irrationality is more natural than rationality. So, perhaps irrational pains and fears are more natural and more real than rational ones. But that's just me.
>
> flb<<< Natural no, common yes.
\:^) Rod
ps:(not meant to irritate)
Posted by finelinebob on May 9, 2004, at 14:58:23
In reply to Re: Re: Re: » finelinebob, posted by 64bowtie on May 9, 2004, at 14:49:21
Posted by Racer on May 9, 2004, at 15:20:24
In reply to Re: Re: Bellyaching etal, posted by finelinebob on May 9, 2004, at 14:25:59
>
> I think there's a Cult of Rationality out there that is the root of the problem. The cultural ghosts of BF Skinner and Behaviorism are still too strong. People should act rationally, and irrational behavior is to be shunned and feared.
>
> Yeah, right.
>
You know, that fits right in with a couple of recent debate-style conversations I had recently, with two different scientists. One is a particle physist, and we were talking about Rationality versus Human Nature. Specifically, we were talking about science education, and the problems there are reaching girls, but the general is probably the more interesting issue. Sure, we're rational animals, we can reason, but we're also Mammals, Vertebrates, and more and more we try to avoid that part of our nature. Watch the animals around you: they don't behave rationally, they act on their instincts. Guess what? We, human beings, have instincts, too. Those instincts are evolutionary artifacts that may no longer be adaptive for us in our concrete jungles, but they are no less real. Pain avoidance, for example, makes really good sense when the world around us is such a painful, dangerous place as the early savannas. These days, though, aside from a few sliced thumbs when the carrot rolls or a really nasty paper cut, the pain we experience tends to be more psychological, or emotional, or social, than physical -- but it is no less real. We really do a disservice to our unique place in the wider world by denying our animal natures, that which links us to our hominid forebears, because it is part of what makes us human. We are *not* pure mind, Pure Reason is a concept that has very little to do with reality.There's a new organization for science education, modeled after the Boy Scouts, that has proposed gender segregation in their programs. Gee, everyone is up in arms: "That's 'Separate But Equal' and it's unconstitutional! It's *wrong*!" In the conversations I've had about this group, every woman over 35 has said it's a GREAT thing to have girls learning science away from boys. The Politically Correct crowd, though, say that it shouldn't be a problem to teach science to girls and boys together, because we should be able to get past the sex roles and just learn. OK, great idea, great abstraction, but in the Real World, there's a hell of a lot of pressure on adolescent girls when boys are around. It Just Is. That's the problem with trying to live in The World As It Should Be. Really simple: maybe it's the way it should be, but it ain't the way it is.
The other conversation was with an oncologist at the National Cancer Institute. It was about medical care, and whether Patient Care was a priority for appropriate medical care. We never did agree on it... But we were split on the same lines: It Shouldn't Matter if the patient feels rapport with the doctor, since the drugs do the work. It Shouldn't Matter But It Does.
> I remember rather clearly being upset about what some other kids were saying to me. Can't remember what they said, but I remember what my dad said: "Just because someone calls you a 'rat-tailed baby babboon', it doesn't mean that you are one." Well, I'm sorry dad, but the way MY mind works, yes it does. A rational response doesn't take away the pain.
>Similar experiences, including the invalidation, and I'd say that it hurt more that way, when there was no one to turn to who understood. (It was always me having to understand -- and I do and did understand, but you know what? They lied to me: To understand all is not to forgive all, it's just that all that pain and anger gets turned in on me instead of being directed in the appropriate direction and processed. Guess where that leads?)
> If you ask me, irrationality is more natural than rationality. So, perhaps irrational pains and fears are more natural and more real than rational ones. But that's just me.
>
> flbYou know, you've really got something there -- and it's something I'd love to take up, but haven't the energy right now to express myself. I may try again later, if I can. I think, though, that "rational" is an artificial construct that does us a lot more harm than good. Sometimes it's just a case of finding the basis for the seemingly irrational. (Like a horse I had who couldn't be tied: found out years later someone had tied her badly to a log, she got scared and pulled back -- and the log chased her! Of course the feeling of being trapped would stay with her, even if there was no immediately apparent reason or rationality behind it. You have to look for the basis of the response, before you say it's irrational.)
Thank you very much for bringing up some really interesting ideas, and doing so with so many fewer words than it takes me ;-D
Posted by finelinebob on May 9, 2004, at 15:59:35
In reply to Re: Re: Bellyaching etal, posted by Racer on May 9, 2004, at 15:20:24
> Thank you very much for bringing up some really interesting ideas, and doing so with so many fewer words than it takes me ;-D
What?! Me, concise?!
In a past life (prior to 09/2000), I was an educational psychologist and science educator, so the gender issue with teaching science is very familiar. Valerie Lee at Michigan has done some studies showing through both statistical analyses of large data sets and more ethnographic studies of particular classrooms that (1) there is a great deal of evidence supporting the idea that girls learn science better in single-sex classrooms, and (2) a lot of that has to do with how boys take over discussions of scientific topics and how teachers, male and female, support this behavior of shutting off girls and encouraging the boys without realizing it.
I don't know if I'd call rationality an "artificial" construct, but it certainly is a cultural construct. In fact, it may be the defining construct of "Western" culture: Cogito ergo sum. The mind is separate from the body. The mind is rational, the body isn't. Thoughts are of the rational mind, emotions are of the animal brain. Rene Descartes may have caused more damage wrestling with his "evil demon" than the rest of our demons combined.
Oops ... sorry, you've got me Hermeneutics all hot and bothered! If you folks want to experience pain, just try reading Heidegger and Habermas! OUCH! If someone ever suggests trying to be philosophical about your pain, reading Gadamer is NOT what they mean!
flb
Posted by 64bowtie on May 9, 2004, at 16:32:49
In reply to Re: Bellyaching philosophically, posted by finelinebob on May 9, 2004, at 15:59:35
Cogito ergo sum. (Rene Descartes)
...and Damasio has a current best seller called,
"Descartes Error", discussing your tenet.Czek it out
Rod
Posted by spoc on May 9, 2004, at 18:41:20
In reply to Re: Re: Bellyaching etal, posted by Racer on May 9, 2004, at 15:20:24
> ...That's the problem with trying to live in The World As It Should Be. Really simple: maybe it's the way it should be, but it ain't the way it is. <
---
*** Yes, and I think most people CAN regurgitate or guess what the "right" and ideal way to feel about and proceed on things is. So apparently with the kinds of issues at hand here, knowing how it Should Be, or being taught how to guess right about how it Should Be, doesn't in itself translate into improvement or action. This isn't the same as saying "...and therefore we are absolved of responsibility." It's just saying that maybe promoting awareness of a very ideal World as it Should Be (and Us as we Should Be) as a step in the healing/moving on process doesn't have impact where it counts. And assumes things that can't be assumed about what things are like for all others.----
> ...I think, though, that "rational" is an artificial construct that does us a lot more harm than good. Sometimes it's just a case of finding the basis for the seemingly irrational. (Like a horse I had who couldn't be tied: found out years later someone had tied her badly to a log, she got scared and pulled back -- and the log chased her! Of course the feeling of being trapped would stay with her, even if there was no immediately apparent reason or rationality behind it. You have to look for the basis of the response, before you say it's irrational.)<---
*** And the "basis of the response" can also be that it FEELS different -- and IS different -- to be in various people's brains. It may be easy to assume that everyone else has the same amount of chemical balance, energy, clarity, etc. available to them each day when they open their eyes. And that all of those who overcome great obstacles to be consistently happy people did so all by choice and determination; and all those who seemed to have it all (or certainly nothing to complain about) who have still managed to be unhappy are also doing so by choice. People deserve much credit for their hard-won victories, but I doubt that in all cases either result is due only to choosing to take responsibility for their own happiness.That everyone is born with the same tools and abilty to choose happiness would also almost seem to imply that there is no such thing as an inborn component of personality. Someone who is going to need to adopt a whole different personality that is not their nature will face different things than someone for whom these ideal philosophies come rather naturally. Which isn't to say they shouldn't try, but the purveyor of positive thinking may not really know what that particular challenge feels like, and how long it may take to change. OR, what constitutes a great improvement already for that person.
So for whatever reason, people may be surprised what it would feel like to wake up with and go through the day, or life, with someone else's brain. And I don't just mean because of what they are thinking or obsessing about and choosing to focus on. There are organic differences, that some of those who are able to consistently embrace positivity and momentum have not experienced and can't speak for. They may *think* they would make all the same choices and do all the same things, but how can they *know* that? This should at least be considered in formulating a philosophy that is supposed to fit all, and be justified in making blanket unflattering inferences about those who don't fit it.
And again, this doesn't absolve anyone from taking responsibility for at least improving what they need to, and hopefully intending to continue doing so. But maybe extreme idealism with its implicit comments on character won't take them further and may take them in reverse. I doubt it is as simple as happiness being nothing but a choice; that all people regardless of individual makeup (historical, medical, emotional, etc.) are equally capable of choosing it; and that the failure to do so could only reflect immaturity and weakness.
---
> Thank you very much for bringing up some really interesting ideas, and doing so with so many fewer words than it takes me ;-D---
*** Now of course that is something I've noticed and like about you Racer! ;- )
Posted by Racer on May 9, 2004, at 19:09:24
In reply to Re: Re: Bellyaching etal » Racer, posted by spoc on May 9, 2004, at 18:41:20
I couldn't tell if you were agreeing or disagreeing with me, or if you had noticed that I type too much and didn't like it? Oh, well...
You did say so many things, though, that I absolutely agree with, and am glad you were here to state them so much more clearly than I could have done. Thank you.
We are all different, and we do experience life and its incidences differently, and thank goodness for that! Imagine, the whole world just like me? We'd never speak, never leave the house, and type like banshees! {{shudder}} That's why it was so wounding to hear so many times that I couldn't be hurt badly enough to cry as a kid. You know? How could anyone else know what it felt like? And, considering how it felt to me, think how frightening the world must be, if this wasn't enough to cry about? (Remember, my mother was the one who doesn't believe in disease or medicine or wounds that don't involve arterial gushers...) We are different, and all deserve respect for those differences. And yes: our traumas do not absolve us from trying. What road that trying takes is up to the individual, and for some people, I think choosing to be professional patients or professional victims may be valid choices for a time. {{shrug}} Whatever, right?
Wow! Whatever happened to the 70s? Remember those slogans like "Different strokes for different folks?" Maybe I'm dating myself, maybe I'm just having a flashback, but there was value to those ideas. Just not to the shag carpeting on the walls, 'K?
(My imaginary motto: "Doing Good does not absolve you from the responsibility of doing it Well.")
Posted by spoc on May 9, 2004, at 19:37:41
In reply to LOL! Thanks -- I think... » spoc, posted by Racer on May 9, 2004, at 19:09:24
***Racer, agreed! So I guess we win then. Whew, glad THAT'S settled! Ha ha. It's destined to be one of those agree-to-disagree things between many, and I will now state as you did that my energy to say much more is questionable. But I had to say something. Note to potential responders: any observations such as "That is all fine if one prefers to instead choose to remain unhappy, or to be stuck in the past" would be missing the entire point of my last post, but I may have to let it go by me and hope someone else takes it up.
-----
> I couldn't tell if you were agreeing or disagreeing with me, or if you had noticed that I type too much and didn't like it? Oh, well.. <----
***I was agreeing. And, as far as your statement about making your points more or less the 'long way,' I was relating to the time and care you take in expressing yourself. For I can rarely do it any other way myself, even when I *really* want to, or when I am giving myself a headache! :- D
> You did say so many things, though, that I absolutely agree with, and am glad you were here to state them so much more clearly than I could have done. Thank you.
>
> We are all different, and we do experience life and its incidences differently, and thank goodness for that! Imagine, the whole world just like me? We'd never speak, never leave the house, and type like banshees! {{shudder}} That's why it was so wounding to hear so many times that I couldn't be hurt badly enough to cry as a kid. You know? How could anyone else know what it felt like? And, considering how it felt to me, think how frightening the world must be, if this wasn't enough to cry about? (Remember, my mother was the one who doesn't believe in disease or medicine or wounds that don't involve arterial gushers...) We are different, and all deserve respect for those differences. And yes: our traumas do not absolve us from trying. What road that trying takes is up to the individual, and for some people, I think choosing to be professional patients or professional victims may be valid choices for a time. {{shrug}} Whatever, right?
>
> Wow! Whatever happened to the 70s? Remember those slogans like "Different strokes for different folks?" Maybe I'm dating myself, maybe I'm just having a flashback, but there was value to those ideas. Just not to the shag carpeting on the walls, 'K?
>
> (My imaginary motto: "Doing Good does not absolve you from the responsibility of doing it Well.")
Posted by Angela2 on May 9, 2004, at 19:48:01
In reply to I wonder, what.....?, posted by 64bowtie on May 9, 2004, at 0:35:55
Here are my thoughts on your post...
Emotional pain and physical pain are the same metaphorically, because with emotional pain, it is our heart that is supposed to be hurt and in pain.
Emotional pain can bring on physical pain. When someone goes through a bad breakup they may vomit up everything they eat. Or when someone is embarrassed or mad or something they may cut themselves. I wonder why. Is this how these two "pains" are connected? Does one always lead to the other? I don't know...I gotta go take a bath. Sorry I can't get into it deeper.
Posted by Racer on May 10, 2004, at 0:21:34
In reply to Re: LOL! Thanks -- I think... » Racer, posted by spoc on May 9, 2004, at 19:37:41
But, hate to tell you this -- I type 'em as fast as I think 'em, and as fast as I would say them in conversation. That's how come I often get so wordy...
But, again, I'm glad I agree with someone who has such good things to say.
Posted by 64bowtie on May 10, 2004, at 12:49:47
In reply to Re: Re: Bellyaching etal » Racer, posted by spoc on May 9, 2004, at 18:41:20
> ---
> *** Yes, ~~~ people CAN regurgitate or guess what the "right" and ideal way to "f_e_e_l" about and proceed on things is.
> (from your response to Racer)<<<PROBLEM......
Please consider the crisis we are all in, that because of time and timing and poor guidance, we are all left making decisions from our gut; from our feelings. We can't properly evaluate "rightness" from feelings. Feelings are too ephemoral and fleeting to be trusted doing that task by themselves, alone. Armed with knowledge and understanding, we can allie our feelings to thinking, and tackle "anything". This is an adult skill children are not wired for.CRISIS......
An alagory of the crisis I refer to is seen most easily in public. On occasion I ride the busses in San Francisco. I witness the lowest-common-denominator of parenting at times. Parents will "unthinkingly" lash out in violence at their children. It takes no thinking or logic to brutalize another person. If they employed caring and options in this circumstance, the children would have a better chance of seeing the true differences between "rightness" and "wrongness".Yes, I was a child and yes, I am a parent. Please don't waste any time defending the actions of anyone who "problem solves" with violence and coercion. If you don't get my message, I apologise for my cautious wordiness.
SUGGESTION......
I suggest we all discipline ourselves to attach two things to decisions from now on. At first, without discipline, some will find it impossible. Some still think that de-nial (denial) is the "unthinkable", because its only a river in Egypt, so they will find this impossible, also.From now on we attach a two item czeklist to our decisions. Attach a component of caring and a component of options to to improve each of our decisions. The "caring" elegantly satisfies the feeling aspects of healthy decision making. Options cannot be arrived at by feelings alone, so therein "options" elegantly add the logic, or thinking, component to the decision process.
UN-THINKING.......
When we ask a person, "What do you think?" How many times do they respond, "Well, I feel ~~~ "...? See what I mean? Try this out for awhile. To me its scarey!FREEDOM and PERSONAL POWER......
...and this is exactly how people give up their "personal power". Freedom comes with personal power attached (ala Anthony Robbins). We cannot be free-talking, free-reasoning, and free-working from our feelings alone. Sure, its our oldest habit. For some of us, so is dysfunction. Is there a better way?SOLUTION......
Add "caring" and "options" to all of our decisions and see where that takes us. Turn it into a "wait-and-see" process (another adult practice not well understood by children). Do it because we are adults, and adults "can"!Rod
Posted by spoc on May 10, 2004, at 16:13:46
In reply to Re: Re: Re: That's it! » spoc, posted by 64bowtie on May 10, 2004, at 12:49:47
> Yes, I was a child and yes, I am a parent. Please don't waste any time defending the actions of anyone who "problem solves" with violence and coercion. If you don't get my message, I apologise for my cautious wordiness.
---
***Rod, this could in no way have been in response to anything I said or prompted by anything I said. I do not want things posted in a response purporting to be to me, that makes it appear that I must have somehow been advocating or excusing such a thing. In fact, my post addressed nothing of that nature or even that general subject whatsoever, and I find it misleading for you to post such a thing as though it is in response to some actual opinion I expressed.In general here, I think we have gone off on two completely different subjects (and the above was most certainly never one of them regardless). In my post I only addressed your initial statement that in all cases, people are somehow choosing to hold onto their pain and get stuck. I did so by noting that there are also chemical and organic differences between people's brains. Meaning that pace and definition of improvement will vary, although of course no one is excused from the responsibility to do something. But, that using a standard of improvement that sees anything falling short of some black and white standard (to be reached while not using meds either) as childlike "bellyaching" isn't warranted.
I did not and do not advocate shirking one's own responsibility in changing; constantly seeking pleasure and avoiding pain; or adopting a permanent "victim mentality." My gut reaction is always that people should be self-aware and look at themselves first. I am also familiar with and not arguing against the tenets of motivational speakers. What I noted was only the above, which is based on accepted research rather than opinion. Biological differences are one reason why one size doesn't fit all; and why electing to be sane or stable enough to simply choose this ideal is not in fact a simple, equally-available option, which could expediently be embraced by all.
Because, you asked. "What is the reason, (is)there more than one reason?" If you mean now that it was actually a rhetorical question only, that means discussion shouldn't follow, as the conclusion was predetermined. But regardless of that, this is an age-old subject that in the situation at hand needs to be left at "agree to disagree." Please. In advance I will respect that you may not even agree that there are sometimes biological components, but either way, please respect that I don't wish to debate it.
Posted by 64bowtie on May 11, 2004, at 11:37:59
In reply to Re: we're apparently talkin about different things, posted by spoc on May 10, 2004, at 16:13:46
I also request that you do not respond to any of my posts in the future, if we can't debate.......
...and I love a good debate. Sad...
Rod
Posted by spoc on May 11, 2004, at 12:08:42
In reply to I'm glad we agree » spoc, posted by Racer on May 10, 2004, at 0:21:34
Racer (er al), I have been trying to herd this into one location, so towards that objective, please also see the following link to a post I made to another related discussion you're in. And, the link contained in *it* to another thread on this same subject! : )
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040503/msgs/345722.html
Posted by firenrain on May 11, 2004, at 21:15:05
In reply to Re: I'm glad we agree » Racer, posted by spoc on May 11, 2004, at 12:08:42
This conversation sounds terribly close to the old "I have bad days too. I just pull mysef up by my bootstraps...". People with multiple sclerosis have pins and needles type pain quite often but because we can prove the MS through MRI we don't question if their unmeasurable pain is real or to what degree it is, as it would differ with each patient. Question... before medical science could prove hypothiroid condition, do you think those women were discribed as just lazy? Here is my reply... Thank God every day that you just cannot relate to the emotional pain many of us speak of. You are quite fortunate. It's so much like the man who believes that his bad day is the same as someone elses severe depression. No offence but that seems like it is simply ones ego attempting to reinforce that one is stronger (or better) than another.
Posted by 64bowtie on May 11, 2004, at 21:38:57
In reply to Re:ROD, JUST THANK GOD YOU DON'T GET IT!, posted by firenrain on May 11, 2004, at 21:15:05
> This conversation sounds terribly close to the old "I have bad days too. I just pull mysef up by my bootstraps...".
>
> Thank God every day that you just cannot relate to the emotional pain many of us speak of.
><<< Your post implies that I am bragging about having a past full to the brim with dysfunction, that NYAH, NYAH, NUH, NYAH, NYAH, I don't have any, anymore. Puh-leeease.
Please consider first that I don't have any time to dream up what you are accusing me of. I did, however, ask for everyones' opinion about their pain. Did you answer my request yet? You may. I invite you, specifically. I need to know. What is your pain like?
If no one can get well, why try? I got well, and you can, toooo. I may not be good at telling my story about how I did it. I hope you do get well, if you want to, and do a better job than me telling how you did it. Sound good?
Rod
Posted by firenrain on May 12, 2004, at 0:45:51
In reply to Are you sure...? » firenrain, posted by 64bowtie on May 11, 2004, at 21:38:57
> > This conversation sounds terribly close to the old "I have bad days too. I just pull mysef up by my bootstraps...".
> >
> > Thank God every day that you just cannot relate to the emotional pain many of us speak of.
> >
>
> <<< Your post implies that I am bragging about having a past full to the brim with dysfunction, that NYAH, NYAH, NUH, NYAH, NYAH, I don't have any, anymore. Puh-leeease.
>
> Please consider first that I don't have any time to dream up what you are accusing me of. I did, however, ask for everyones' opinion about their pain. Did you answer my request yet? You may. I invite you, specifically. I need to know. What is your pain like?
>
> If no one can get well, why try? I got well, and you can, toooo. I may not be good at telling my story about how I did it. I hope you do get well, if you want to, and do a better job than me telling how you did it. Sound good?
>
> Rod
>Sorry for the spiteful tone in my last post. I do realize that you have asked a question in your first post , but you also ask where and how the pain occurs, implying that you do not know how it feels... When you asked "If I want to get well" it hit an even deeper nerve... So here's my attempt to answer your question. I went for 5 years without antidep I too thought I was well. My denial continued until I was in a catatonic psychosis. I just wished that someone could get in my head for one day when I am so deeply depressed. My biggest fear is that I am not trying hard enough or that I have somehow brought this on myself. The self loathing chatter is saying things like, "Just make yourself get up, your not ill you are just sorry & worthless". Then the logic goes like this, "you are not an asset any where, you are just a waste of space, simply a liability to your family, must they watch you lie around pathetically, you bring no joy. If you really loved them you would just shoot yourself so that they can get on with their life, sure it may hurt them for a little bit but then they could have the rest of their lives without this humiliating burden". The insanity of my logic (at those times)is that this would be the most selfless act. That is such a brief and dim view of the chatter in my brain, yet on the outside I appear blank all movement seems slow & difficult. Just to shower was too much. Here's the thing... as a child I remember my mother being in a similar state. The general unspoken beliefe in our home was that she was just weak... if she would just try harder... I resented her for this. So when it happened to me I loathed myself I felt I would rather be dead than live like that. To describe the pain I would say it is like wearing dark glasses and all around is bleak, a feeling of impending doom, afraid to go out or work because everyone can see how messed up you are. My body feels heavy sluggish, I fel as though my brain cannot wake up, at times I feel like I am watching mysef and I am as disgusted as I feel those around me must be. I feel so alone, I am taken back at how bizzare I feel I am. I used to have a strong desire to burn myself it seemed to almost calm me. Was it because I was whipped as a child and so after I was "bad" the pain was like an attonement? Was it a way to show how much I hurt? Was it because the build up to the pain and after the burn (3rd degree)released endorphins similar to an orgasm to relieve anxiety? I believe all three. (Like, is it nature or nurture). I questioned spirituality like is this demons? & Why isn't my faith strong enough...Then usually after a hospitalization and a year or so on meds I tend to think that I overcame this illness...Follwed by several years without meds and the cycle continues...I desperately need to believe this is an illness that I did not cause, because if I don't, I fear I wll not feel worthy of life in my darkest hours... Hope this answers your question.
Posted by 64bowtie on May 12, 2004, at 3:41:12
In reply to Re: Are you sure...?, posted by firenrain on May 12, 2004, at 0:45:51
> Sorry for the spiteful tone in my last post. I do realize that you have asked a question in your first post ,
<<< thanks, I mean that, thanks.> but you also ask where and how the pain occurs, implying that you do not know how it feels...
<<< I know pain, it was a rhetorical (mistake, apparently) question.> When you asked "If I want to get well" it hit an even deeper nerve...
<<< this question is not rhetorical... Do you want to get well?> So here's my attempt to answer your question. I went for 5 years without antidep I too thought I was well. My denial continued until I was in a catatonic psychosis. I just wished that someone could get in my head for one day when I am so deeply depressed. My biggest fear is that I am not trying hard enough or that I have somehow brought this on myself.
<<< I wish it were different for you.> The self loathing chatter is saying things
<<< When I learned to suspend my beliefs until I could decide which beliefs were really mine and which ones were induced by someone else from the outside, I started hearing only one voice; me, mine! No social blackmail, no voices.Rod
Posted by TexasChic on May 12, 2004, at 16:59:01
In reply to Re: Re: Bellyaching etal » finelinebob, posted by 64bowtie on May 9, 2004, at 13:41:17
> My contention is that therapists are being trained to help overcome the wrong stuff, which is why the word "cure" is such a dirty word. Also, ever wonder why therapy just seems like "the same old stuff, just a different day!"...???
I think my therapist does do what you are saying most don't do. When I first went to her, she had me purchase a workbook on anxieties and phobias. I actually had homework! It was very enlightening too. I was able to figure out why I had the feelings I did, and decide that I was going to change my perspective in order to be a happier person.
We have made much progress in my stepping back and seeing my actions for what they are, why I behave that way, and how to change them if they make me unhappy. I'm not really explaining this very well but, its kind of like you've talked about stepping outside yourself and examining yourself honestly. Like recently, I just realized that the reason people disappoint me so often is because I set standards that are impossible for them to reach. By realizing that and *accepting* it, now I'll be able (hopefully) to set more reasonable standards, which in turn means I won't be as upset with people, which means I'll feel better.
Is this what you're talking about Rod?
Posted by Angel Girl on May 12, 2004, at 19:40:16
In reply to Re: Are you sure...?, posted by firenrain on May 12, 2004, at 0:45:51
firerain
I haven't followed this thread from the beginning but I just wanted to respond to your last comments. I feel you pain. I live your pain. You're not alone. I hope you don't mind my intrusion in your conversation.
Angel Girl
Posted by firenrain on May 13, 2004, at 7:59:00
In reply to Re: Are you sure...? » firenrain, posted by Angel Girl on May 12, 2004, at 19:40:16
Thanks angelgirl...Rod, I must be brief gotta go to wk. I understand about what you are saying about questioning what is my own beliefs as opposed to the "brainwashing" type beliefs I was taught growing up, and hearing one voice. Here is the danger that I have found after many yrs of thpy and many books read. When I am "well" I feel I am objective and insightful, however I am having to come to grips with the fact that their is a problem at times with the wireing in my brain that no amount of thrpy can change. It is only at those "ill" times that my capacity to be objective leaves me. I now know why certain traits were developed in my character and I feel that I bearly resemble the person and thought patterns of myself 10 years ago. When I am clear minded (I am getting there) I am introspective. At times I simply cannot. I could be a loud advocate for mental illness for everyone at "well" times. Although Rod, (as much as I hate to post this here) the more I read the more I realize how complicated it all is. Mental illness is all a hypothasis, one diagnosis has shades of another, medical science cannot tell us exactly how any of the meds work it's all an educated guess. You're right you never hear of anyone being healed. I spoke with a reserch Dr. Psy at stanford specialty bipolar he said they really know very little about the human brain. It makes me wonder if we were ment to know. I do believe spirituality plays a big roll in it all. O.K. so this was not so brief... gotta go... look forward to hearing more of your thoughts.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 14, 2004, at 8:33:26
In reply to Re:ROD, JUST THANK GOD YOU DON'T GET IT!, posted by firenrain on May 11, 2004, at 21:15:05
> Thank God every day that you just cannot relate to the emotional pain many of us speak of... No offence but that seems like it is simply ones ego attempting to reinforce that one is stronger (or better) than another.
Please don't jump to conclusions about others or post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posting something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by firenrain on May 14, 2004, at 11:11:03
In reply to Re: please be civil » firenrain, posted by Dr. Bob on May 14, 2004, at 8:33:26
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 14, 2004, at 23:16:02
In reply to Please be clear.... » finelinebob, posted by 64bowtie on May 9, 2004, at 4:24:28
> the cantancorousness of Larry-Hoover and Zen-Hussey
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 14, 2004, at 23:17:46
In reply to Re: Sorry. I will not do it again (nm) » Dr. Bob, posted by firenrain on May 14, 2004, at 11:11:03
This is the end of the thread.
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