![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tabitha on May 3, 2004, at 22:16:46
I'm so sick of being upset by sessions. Once again having trouble with the group vs individual sessions. In the individual sessions, sometimes I complain about the group or the group members. For a long time she'd just tell me I was disorting or projecting. So I kept swallowing that, and assumed she probably sees them more clearly than I do, and I did get some evidence she was right in some cases, and I learned to re-phrase my complaints to avoid that response (much like Babble.. please be civil.. etc).
Now lately I get a new unhelpful response. Now when I complain about group, she turns my complaint back onto me. Like whatever I'm complaining about, if it's about another group member, she'll point out how I do the same thing. Or if I say I want something from the group that I'm not getting (this is a new area of complaint for me), she'll point out how I don't give that thing to the other group members. Well that really doesn't feel good, and I end up mad at her, and ashamed of whatever it is she's pointed out.
The message I'm getting, and I know she'll tell me this is a distortion, is that the group is all just fine and wonderful, therefore anything I don't like is my fault, it's my problem, and besides I'm not seeing it clearly anyway. Oh, and the new thing, the latest thing, is that I'm not giving enough to the group, so I can't expect to get anything from them. I've just been so PO'd about this all week. I don't want to go to group, and I don't want to go to my next individual session. I just want to not show up ever again. It's so irritating to have to go pay her fee to tell her how mad at her I am, and then have her tell me that whatever upset me is all my own distortion anyway.
And this does mirror a pattern in my relationships. I start out with zero expectations, and things go OK. Then at some point I start letting myself want things from the relationship. I think they're reasonable things to want, but I don't get them, and I get my feelings hurt, and I sometimes just withdraw from the relationship, or sometimes voice it and get into a power struggle that never has a good resolution. I've started to believe people give as much as they're willing to give, and asking for something different doesn't really have much effect. So here I am with the group, I've gotten to the point where I actually want things from them. I at least thought it would be OK to voice that I want these things, even though I don't get them. I didn't expect that voicing my wants would mean I'd get these things, but I thought at least it was OK to have the feelings, and to voice them. Instead, I'm hearing that I'm wrong for wanting those things, and I don't deserve those things, and I should just stuff down my needs and my complaints and give more to others. That can't be right, can it? That's not the healthy relationship recipe that therapists are supposed to hand out.
I can already see where this will go. She'll say oh, I didn't give you that message, who gave you that message? And I'll say, gee, I guess it's my mom. Just once I'd like to be right, and not get another humbling experience of how I distort things and don't see clearly, and if I'm mad at my therapist or the group it's always my own issues. Ya know?
/End rant.
Posted by Racer on May 4, 2004, at 0:35:41
In reply to More Therapy Junk -- Rant, posted by tabitha on May 3, 2004, at 22:16:46
You're right, you know...
Seriously, I don't know anything at all about solving the problem, but I can tell you that something is wrong and it ain't you. I can also tell you -- this information is no longer classified -- that I have very similar issues. Nope, can't tell you anything about solving them, but I gots 'em.
One thing that I notice, though, in your post is that you're having both sides of a conversation about it. You've already told yourself what your therapist will say, so you don't have to bring it up with her in the first place -- since you already know what she'll say. That might not be the best possible answer, although it is one right answer. (Not a positive, getting better, learning answer, but I already told you you're right, so I don't want to sound inconsistent...)
Here's a specific example from my therapy: I kept hearing, when I said that I was afraid I was hopeless or that I thought my life was hopeless. My (former) therapist would say, "oh, there's always hope!" Guess what? She was trying to offer hope, a nice rope for me to hang on to. Guess what else? Just made me feel as if I was wrong, and no one was listening to me. I included that in a list of fears that I told my new therapist about, complete with that explanation and the suggestion that maybe validating that feeling was the first step, before trying to convince me I was wrong. Maybe -- shock horror -- even helping direct me to finding that sense of hope on my own, rather than just stating The Fact that there's always hope in every possible situation? What a concept! We'll see how that works out, I guess, but at least I was able to verbalize it. That is a start.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that you're not wrong to be upset by this pattern, and it does sound as if you're not getting the validation you need. Sure, you probably should be giving in order to receive, but you know what? There is no rule that says everything in life is a equal trade, and not everyone needs the same thing. I take my mother shopping because she doesn't have a car. Should she rent a car to come and take me shopping in return? (NO! We don't want Mother driving, 'K?) Have you tried to talk to your therapist about feeling so invalidated? Not about a specific situation, but just in general terms? About feeling as if she's dismissing your REAL distress about the group, that you're feeling yourself withdraw from discussing your feelings with her, and that it's interfering with your ability to progress in therapy? It might be worth it. Hard, but worth it.
Good luck to you. And do report back. If you can do it, I wanna know how -- you can be my inspiration!
Posted by tabitha on May 4, 2004, at 1:03:00
In reply to Um... » tabitha, posted by Racer on May 4, 2004, at 0:35:41
I didn't mean I won't talk to her about it.. I'm just feeling cynical about how the discussions go. It's always more issues for me to work on.
I have talked with her about how I don't feel supported anymore. I complained about not getting validation for my feelings. She says she won't validate distortions. That's when I learned to preface it all with some weasel-words like 'I'm noticing I'm having feelings about Joe, and I'm thinking he's such-and-such, and I realize I could be distorting, but...'. When I do that at least I don't get what I perceive to be a harsh counter-attack. I'll even sometimes get 'well I can understand why you'd feel that way if that's how you took it'.
Even last session, I pointed out how I was feeling like every time I complain about group, she turns it against me. She does her usual, listens, nothing changes. I usually get with the program (her program) eventually, but I'm really resisting right now. My rational part tells me she's not really handling this dual role very well with me.
It's just such a surprise. I've been seeing her 10 years, and before I started the group, when I'd gripe about people, I'd feel supported by what she said, although she didn't exactly buy all my perceptions. I'd sometimes get my feathers ruffled a bit, when she seemed to be extending compassion to them, but it was never like now, where I end up feeling attacked and shamed, and thinking it might be better to keep quiet. I think I keep trying, expecting to get the old response, and not getting it. Isn't that some definition of insanity?
Plus it makes me think she was playing me when she was being supportive before. Like it was just the easiest route then, to give me the benefit of the doubt, and give support, but now her loyalty is to the group, not to me. Makes me feel like I'm in a creepy cult.
I am curious about your experience.. did you go through the same thing with a group? Or did you have similar experience in individual?
Posted by Speaker on May 4, 2004, at 6:49:40
In reply to Re: Um... » Racer, posted by tabitha on May 4, 2004, at 1:03:00
Tabitha,
I'm sorry your going through this! Your T's response is hurtful and not helpful at this point. I would ask her how she sees she is helping you? If its always pointing out your distortions I would say you are on top of that yourself at this point (if indeed they are distorted). I would ask if her reasoning for getting you into group was so she could just point a finger at you. I would turn it around and make her tell you why she is treating you this way. I sure don't see the benefit in it.
Posted by justyourlaugh on May 4, 2004, at 7:16:22
In reply to Re: Um... » Racer, posted by tabitha on May 4, 2004, at 1:03:00
i feel really upset you are not being allowed to express yourself.
if you "feel" good or bad about something it is valid.
you can not be responsible for the way you feel.
only the way you respond to them.
if i was your "t" i would be exporing and celebrating your feelings, looking for ways to turn the negative into positive outcomes..
not push them back into their ulcer..
come lay on my couch for a little rant..
:)
jyl
Posted by Aphrodite on May 4, 2004, at 7:35:57
In reply to More Therapy Junk -- Rant, posted by tabitha on May 3, 2004, at 22:16:46
I know that therapists like to "go deep" on our every comment and reaction, but I would be interested when she tells you "I didn't give that message; who did?" if you said, "Maybe things are simple and obvious here. Have you considered it wasn't my parents but maybe YOU? Have you considered that maybe you're wrong?" Sometimes it is that black and white, and it sounds like she needs to take some responsibility.
I guess my greatest concern is that you are spending your individual sessions talking about group. While that could be very helpful, I'm sure you would want some of your individual time to sort out family, work, friends, etc., and she is making that difficult, so your individual session is becoming group session #2.
You sound frustrated and rightly so. I hope you will tell her directly without putting blame on yourself in your preface. Sometimes, it isn't our fault completely after all, and this is one of those times.
Posted by mair on May 4, 2004, at 8:05:18
In reply to More Therapy Junk -- Rant, posted by tabitha on May 3, 2004, at 22:16:46
I sometimes think therapists fall back on the projection/transference explanation too easily. Sometimes it is them and not our parents.
I think you've done a wonderful job of describing what's bothering you in your 2 posts. Although I almost never recommend this to anyone since I probably couldn't do this myself, I think you should print these 2 posts and give them to her at your next session.
Maybe you're saying all of this to her anyway, and she doesn't need the posts to understand what's going on, but I think you've conveyed the anger and the hurt well, and maybe she should see it on paper.
Mair
Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2004, at 8:22:34
In reply to Re: Um... » Racer, posted by tabitha on May 4, 2004, at 1:03:00
I have brought some pretty clear distortions over time to my therapist. Ones that I presented enough of both sides that he could see it was a distortion. Ones that occurred between us that he could see was a distortion.
He accepted that I was presenting *my* truth. He might have presented other ways of looking at things, pointed out to me some idiosyncratic reactions, but while still making me feel validated. It's a fine line they walk, but they're trained to do it. :) OK, what he does is pretty transparent, but still he does do it.
I've felt several times since you started group that your therapist now had two clients she was juggling in your individual sessions. You and the group as a whole. But I hesitate to mention it, because generally she'll come up with some reason why her view of things is not only correct but important to you to learn. Which could be completely true.
Do you feel that her approach has helped you assimilate better in group? And has it helped you, Tabitha, as an individual, in the rest of your life? (Which is more important, I suppose, since therapy may be pleasant but it's only a couple of hours a week of our entire lives).
Posted by tabitha on May 4, 2004, at 11:22:11
In reply to Re: Um... » tabitha, posted by Dinah on May 4, 2004, at 8:22:34
Maybe it is time to print out some of my posts. I do talk about all this with her, but maybe I'm not really getting across how put down I feel sometimes.
At one point she said she'd take me out of the group, since it was interfering with our individual relationship. I was afraid of that, because, difficult as it is, I had a lot of hopes pinned on this group experience. Maybe I've been holding in my feelings a bit out of fear she'd evict me from group.
Yes, it's exactly like there are 2 clients now, and I keep feeling she favors group over me. It's reminding me of my brief and horrid experience with couple's counseling (different therapist).
We do spend a lot of my individual sessions processing group. I try to go over my other life issues before starting on group. It does need processing somewhere. If I just went into group with my reactions, I'd probably be too harsh and blaming and end up getting the counterattacks from them instead of her. So she knocks the stuffing out of me first. This doesn't sound good at all does it? I know it isn't her intent to make me feel put down and silenced and made to be wrong, but it keeps happening.
Posted by Racer on May 4, 2004, at 11:34:25
In reply to Re: Um..., posted by tabitha on May 4, 2004, at 11:22:11
Maybe it would be better to be counterattacked in group than in individual? Honestly -- the relationship with your therapist has to be so intimate in order for it to work, so you feel the need to adjust yourself and hold back, which makes it even harder for it to work. Maybe if you let it out in group, you can get through it because the counterattacks are so much more diffuse?
Besides, if the people in the group are getting so far under your skin, maybe it won't be so frightening to feel as if you might lose their respect? Just a thought...
Posted by tabitha on May 5, 2004, at 0:06:35
In reply to Maybe... » tabitha, posted by Racer on May 4, 2004, at 11:34:25
Well, I dragged myself to group, although all day I was fantasizing cancelling or not showing up, and I did tell them about my gripes with her. They said the same thing Racer said-- try talking to them instead of her. So I went over one thing, but this time I wasn't really mad at any of them anyway, it was all at her response to what I'd told her in individual just talking over the group, so it was a little weird. She kept trying to keep me off the topic of her and me, and said we'd 'clean that up' in individual. But I ended up feeling really supported by the group, and more connected with them than ever. So now I've got all my bad feelings directed at her, and the group is golden.
Maybe this is some kind of therapy adolescence-- I'm bonding with my peers and rejecting the parent.
Posted by Dinah on May 5, 2004, at 9:27:20
In reply to Re: update..., posted by tabitha on May 5, 2004, at 0:06:35
Chuckle.
She ought to be happy! It encourages group bonding. :)
Posted by Racer on May 5, 2004, at 14:17:58
In reply to Re: update..., posted by tabitha on May 5, 2004, at 0:06:35
Posted by tabitha on May 5, 2004, at 23:17:50
In reply to Glad something I said was helpful (nm) » tabitha, posted by Racer on May 5, 2004, at 14:17:58
It's just recycling. I'm still mad at the therapist, then I thought over some of the response in the group, and got mad at one of the group members-- the one I had problems with for so long, until the therapist successfully brainwashed me out of all my ideas about her. Well she's bugging me again.
I'm exhausted from all this stuff going around in my head, and from thinking about quitting the group and/or quitting therapy. I just can't believe anything that generates this much anger and upset can be good.
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2004, at 9:22:08
In reply to Re: Now more anger.., posted by tabitha on May 5, 2004, at 23:17:50
((((Tabitha))))
FWIW, when I first came to Babble, I was in constant pain. Anger and upset seemed to come with the territory. My husband wanted me to stop Babbling entirely. My therapist put me on forced Babble breaks. It was one long crisis after another. I just wasn't used to interacting with others. The quintissential loner.
But in the end, I think I grew more than I would have in years of therapy without Babble. It brought out issues that wouldn't have been brought out in one on one therapy. It made me see things in myself that I considered virtues maybe weren't virtues at all.
Of course, the main difference was that I had a therapist who had no connection to Babble and absolutely no investment in it. Of course, Babble is different from group because, since I brought in posts, he was able to see all sides of the interaction without being involved. I guess in group, if a therapist isn't there they can't see more than the client's point of view.
It's a hard call. And harder because being in the group is destabilizing an important supportive relationship in your life. Have you talked about this with your therapist? Not the individual interactions in the group, but the effect that group is having on your life. Your fear that you are losing her in the way you used to have her?
Posted by fallsfall on May 6, 2004, at 12:40:55
In reply to Re: Now more anger.. » tabitha, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2004, at 9:22:08
Tabitha,
I have not been keeping up with all of the threads, and I didn't read this one until just now.
As I read your two initial posts I just kept shaking my head in agreement. Your situation seems so familiar to me. Being angry at my therapist. Having him tell me I'm distorting. Seeing that he might be making some sense. Being even angrier. Feeling unsupported. Feeling attacked. Wanting to leave. Wishing that he would be nice to me for just ONE session. Frustration. Not knowing how to "fix" things.
I think that my experience and yours have some real similarities. Tell me if you don't agree.
It is so frustrating, so agonizing...
But recently, two important things have happened for me.
The first is that I now believe that he is right - that I do perpetuate my depression, that my depression is more palatable than something else. I even know what the something else is. And I have told him. If we look back in the Babble archives, I think that we will find that in July or August of last year (I saw him for the first time June 16, and started with him on July 2) or at least some time very early on he told me that I was a "permanent patient". I was incensed. I remember talking to Dinah about it, and she was madder than I was. How could he say that I wasn't trying to get better? He was right, and he has known it all along. Since figuring out why I perpetuate my depression I have started feeling better. I just removed a years worth of dog hair from the couch the dogs sleep on when I'm out of the house. I have ambition for the first time in years.
The second thing is that I am starting to look to the future, to what could be, to what I can do, to what I WANT to do. What a change from seeing only what I couldn't do, what I wasn't.
I have been through hell for the last 4 months or so. I have a friend who went to Australia at the beginning of February, and I know that I've been so miserable that I couldn't even email her about what was happening. He is unrelenting. He is calm (almost all the time). At least half the time I can't see how he could possibly care - the other half of the time I'm amazed that he can care so much.
But he has been right.
And I'll probably be in the middle of pain again by next week, but I *HAVE* to say that I am making significant progress. I wouldn't have said that a month ago - I would only have talked about the pain.
Your therapist has impressed me, as have you. You ARE open to learning, to seeing that what you believe isn't working, to trying something new. She HAS proved right in the past about important things.
You have learned a lot in group. Most of it painfully, but still you have learned a lot. I think it is a valuable experience for you, and I think that talking about group during your individual sessions is completely appropriate. When I was in group it was often the topic of my individual sessions, too.
I understand your frustration (again, ask me next week). I think you should stick it out, and do your very best to be totally honest with her about how you are feeling. I accused my therapist of scheduling a special session because he wanted to yell at me - not because he was concerned about me. He listened, and told me that I was wrong. I felt like a complete jerk, but I do believe him now - and he doesn't see me as a jerk, he sees that I had something to learn.
Through most of this pain, my friends agreed with me that he was being unreasonable and cruel. I don't understand why, but I do believe now that he was being effective.
Utter and complete openness and honesty. *I* think you are getting someplace (of course, what do I know??).
My best wishes,
Falls.
Posted by spoc on May 7, 2004, at 16:44:06
In reply to On the other hand, posted by fallsfall on May 6, 2004, at 12:40:55
> As I read your two initial posts I just kept shaking my head in agreement. Your situation seems so familiar to me. Being angry at my therapist. Having him tell me I'm distorting. Seeing that he might be making some sense. Being even angrier. Feeling unsupported. Feeling attacked. Wanting to leave. Wishing that he would be nice to me for just ONE session. Frustration. Not knowing how to "fix" things.>
---
I think is the kind of thing I don't get about choosing a therapist most likely to be effective for oneself. I am pretty inexperienced in it all, and am not seeing a T now, but plan to someday. A recent short-lived experience looked as if it would end up falling along the lines of what you describe, which I also decided could be good. But in that case it ended up feeling "unsafe" coming from what was in fact a stranger, right out of the gate. I never sensed a a period of trust-building, during which he was getting to know me as a unique new case.Anyway, where does such a 'tough love' approach fit in with the theories of Ts who strongly encourage clients to need them, learn to trust with them, and get much of the warmth and compassion missing in their lives from them? If the client has ended up with a T who takes one approach, and they are uncomfortable or dissatisfied beyond 'normal' and expected levels of that, should they expect to be told (or at least have it conceded) that the other approach may be better for them? When one feels miserable for a long time, how do they know if wanting to leave is just running from something they shouldn't; or if in fact they should be running?
It's easy to guess at which personality types and types of issues would fare better with a tougher approach, and which with a gentler and more supportive/compassionate approach. But once there, I'm guessing most Ts would maintain that their approach is likely to be most effective in the long run. Sorry, this is broad and probing and there probably is no answer, beyond going with one's gut and hoping it can still be trusted! But thanks if anyone has any insights on this. :- )
(Oh and Tabitha, I wanted to say that I could relate to some of the things you have been saying about group(s), but feel like I should hold off indefinitely on certain types of subjects, as I'm not sure how I come across in writing sometimes.)
Posted by fallsfall on May 7, 2004, at 21:33:39
In reply to Re: On the other hand, posted by spoc on May 7, 2004, at 16:44:06
> I think is the kind of thing I don't get about choosing a therapist most likely to be effective for oneself. I am pretty inexperienced in it all, and am not seeing a T now, but plan to someday. A recent short-lived experience looked as if it would end up falling along the lines of what you describe, which I also decided could be good. But in that case it ended up feeling "unsafe" coming from what was in fact a stranger, right out of the gate. I never sensed a a period of trust-building, during which he was getting to know me as a unique new case.
>
***My therapist and I spent a couple of months (twice a week) doing "history". My first sessions were dealing with leaving my old therapist, then we spent a long time talking about various aspects of my life (mostly past). By the time that we had finished that I had a strong sense that he cared - that he wanted to do what was right for me. There also were a couple of times when he was "warm and fuzzy" - but not all the time.So by the time he started with the harder stuff, I did feel like he was skilled and that he cared.
> Anyway, where does such a 'tough love' approach fit in with the theories of Ts who strongly encourage clients to need them, learn to trust with them, and get much of the warmth and compassion missing in their lives from them? If the client has ended up with a T who takes one approach, and they are uncomfortable or dissatisfied beyond 'normal' and expected levels of that, should they expect to be told (or at least have it conceded) that the other approach may be better for them? When one feels miserable for a long time, how do they know if wanting to leave is just running from something they shouldn't; or if in fact they should be running?
>
***I think some of it depends on what the background of the client is. I don't have a lot of trust issues - if anything I trust too much. I am also dependent whether or not he is warm (in fact, one reason I chose him was that he was a little more aloof and I hoped that it would help me keep a healthier distance). I would think that he would need to treat me differently if I was coming from a different background.***The other thing is that just because he challenges me and upsets me on a regular basis doesn't mean that I don't feel nurtured by him. His nurturing is more that I have no doubt that he is making choices in my best interest, than that he will hold me, or even provide a lot of sympathy. The fact that he pushes me hard is evidence that he DOES want what is best for me - I would be angry if I thought that we were wasting time because he was trying to be "nice" to me.
***It is very true that not every therapy style works for every client. The qualities I look for in a therapist are not very different from qualities I would look for in a mate or a friend. If you "interview" a therapist and they make you uncomfortable in the interview, then they probably aren't a good match for you.
> It's easy to guess at which personality types and types of issues would fare better with a tougher approach, and which with a gentler and more supportive/compassionate approach. But once there, I'm guessing most Ts would maintain that their approach is likely to be most effective in the long run. Sorry, this is broad and probing and there probably is no answer, beyond going with one's gut and hoping it can still be trusted! But thanks if anyone has any insights on this. :- )
***I think it is important to interview at least 3 therapists before choosing one. This gives you a chance to see how different styles come across. It was pretty clear to me which therapists I would like, which ones would be effective, and which ones just didn't fit with me at all.
Posted by antigua on May 8, 2004, at 11:29:02
In reply to Re: On the other hand, posted by spoc on May 7, 2004, at 16:44:06
Which types of issues do you think would be easier to handle with the tough love approach? I'm just interested in your thoughts.
antigua
Posted by spoc on May 8, 2004, at 14:55:00
In reply to Re: On the other hand » spoc, posted by antigua on May 8, 2004, at 11:29:02
> Which types of issues do you think would be easier to handle with the tough love approach? I'm just interested in your thoughts.
> antigua----
Hi antigua,Preliminary note: I assume that many/most times when someone picks a T, the various selection criteria don't end up being based on anything like the following. And that whatever "demeanor" the T ends up displaying can also just be a matter of chance. In other words, the below is not at all related to any assumptions about why anyone here is seeing the kind of T they are.
But ok, from logic (and maybe too many movies or something), I'm guessing that the kind of issues that do best with "tough love" are ones wherein the client really has worked against themself by confining themself to people who tend to coddle them and "enable" them not to change. Or, people whose inaction really is mostly due to feeling that the specific hand they were dealt in life excuses them from responsibility. Or justifies getting stuck at blaming others. Or who use drama or other devices to put a halt to any pressure or accountability applied to them.
In those cases I can see calling in someone who accepts no excuses; cuts little slack; confronts and wears down behaviors and thought processes that end up in continued stalling; and who purposely avoids giving any more sympathy/empathy than necessary, so as not to reward or encourage certain behaviors and excuses.
And at the other end of the spectrum, I place the kind of therapy approach that uses exceptional warmth and nurturing; and encourages the client to give in to the healing power of that; and to believe that it can also be transferred to people in their real life. And here, my oversimplification assumes that the people who would do best with this would be those who were clearly deprived of having their emotional and/or physical needs met for much of their lives, and may have had little control/choice in it (whether neglect, abuse, tragedy, bad health, isolation, etc. etc.). And as a result, they may not feel they deserve to ever have those needs met, or may be afraid to ask or try; or can't see or trust the opportunity even if it does present itself.
It seems that if a client's traumas and experiences have had the effect of leading them to expect to be treated harshly, betrayed, or not seen/heard/cared about, a T would at least initially need to build a lot of trust and safety before getting "tough," if ever. Otherwise the person would be likely to perceive even well-intentioned "sternness" as the same void or rejection as always, and probably due their own un-likeability or unworthiness.
Does that make any sense? Of course, most clients surely don't fit neatly into *either* extreme. And ideally, the approach of most Ts would be somewhere in between too. Maybe in reality they usually are. I just jumped in here in relation to the "tougher" approach -- and its ultimate benefits following the prolonged period of seemingly pointless discomfort. The last time I undertook therapy I had not wanted a lot of emphasis on nurturing and even said that, although not asking for or accepting help and love are actually problems of mine. But with an exceptionally cool/abrupt character, I'd have to feel some type of connection or suitability from the start (which fallsfall clarified that she did in her case).
But in my recent attempt, there was no connection, beyond my thinking he was handsome with a comforting, kind face; which hypnotized me initially. And, having noted that he was involved in some industry and academic things (which I later heard can actually work *against* their likelihood of being well-versed in the bedside manner, human interaction aspect...another subject...). So, I just have to choose differently next time. The main thing was that this last "T" was a pdoc whose method turned out to be classic analysis (albeit 'only' twice a week) -- and I hadn't known that. And realize now that it was just not the right method for me (or his in particular wasn't).
So when I talk about the "tough" vs. "nurturing" approaches above, in my case I guess what I'm actually comparing is analysis vs. other kinds of psychotherapy (maybe that means in my simplified examples, I think clients falling within the first category would do better with psychoanalysts??). It's not surprising that analysis can end up not having a warm fuzzy component -- BUT I had not known that that was what I was in!! And that's probably why it felt empty, disturbing and confusing. I had *thought* I was in a place where this person would help me help myself feel better, dig out of a depression, and start setting little goals. I was/am in a bad way and could have used some "stabilizing." But that is not how his method proceeds; it's not about in-the-moment help and shoring-up. So, up until this all came out months later, I had thought it was just *me* who elicited such a cold front and lack of interaction and feedback. But actually I just wasn't even in the right ballpark for me.
(Standing disclaimer: This is NOT to speak for what methods of therapy work best for others, nor to imply that any kinds of therapy always fit some mold and are good or bad ideas.) :- )
Posted by Dinah on May 8, 2004, at 21:26:20
In reply to Re: On the other hand » antigua, posted by spoc on May 8, 2004, at 14:55:00
The trouble is that the type of person you describe as benefiting most from "tough love" therapy is also the type of person who is mostly likely to walk out in a huff with a therapist who tried that. You can't have good therapy if you don't have a client to work with. :)
An overly nurturing therapist might scare half to death a client who hasn't had much experience with nurturing, as well.
This was actually the sort of thing I was talking about on my thread about therapist fit.
I suspect that the people who do best with "direct, no nonsense" therapists are those who are a bit analytical and think of therapist as a teacher of skills, or who pride themselves on the same qualities and like it in others.
I always walk out on them.
But I don't like overly nurturing therapists either. They scare me.
I also kind of wonder if there isn't a geographic/cultural component, although I don't like to stereotype. East coast, west coast, south, north. I wonder if it makes a difference as to preferred style?
Posted by spoc on May 9, 2004, at 13:44:25
In reply to Re: On the other hand » spoc, posted by Dinah on May 8, 2004, at 21:26:20
> I suspect that the people who do best with "direct, no nonsense" therapists are those who are a bit analytical and think of therapist as a teacher of skills, or who pride themselves on the same qualities and like it in others.
>
> I always walk out on them.
>
> An overly nurturing therapist might scare half to death a client who hasn't had much experience with nurturing, as well.
>
> I don't like overly nurturing therapists either. They scare me. <----
<<<<<< I see what you mean about possibly being overwhelmed by too much nurturing. I can be very uncomfortable with that, even coming from those I know well. I guess what I would have considered the right amount of nurturing for me would just be a foundation that people become who they are for many reasons, including chemical and environmental influences; that it isn't ALL due to choice or poor character.Because I tend to feel like I chose everything about how I am, including to be depressed, lethargic, inconsistent, obsessive compulsive, etc. And, to believe that I've proven conclusively by now that I am not going to fix it, so time's up -- as a matter of honor and realism, not emotion. Have you ever seen the movie "G'night Mother" with Sissy Spacek and Anne Bancroft (don't, if you haven't)? Different issues, but that's the kind of 'no nonsense' thinking I tend towards.
Anyway, I would have thought I could relate well on the direct, no-nonsense therapy level. But my experience with it didn't pan out that way. I had wanted our approach on how I should proceed to be no-nonsense in the sense that we would spend more time with goal-setting and figuring out what works for me than with me being "validated" over any past miseries. But it ended up feeling like what was nonsense was me. Following are some examples I could really use feedback on.
When I came to him, I told him that BY FAR the biggest problem and phobia I have developed as a ramification of my problems is my stark terror of getting a new job. I've worked at home for most of the last eight years, and desperately need to get a different job for financial, structural and isolation-reducing reasons. But this will be likely to put me back in an office environment, which has always been a huge problem for me due to my insecurity, OCD, insomnia, frequently not feeling well, and inability to face people on many days.
And for whatever reason, I have never even come close to identifying what it is I would be good at in a career. All of the above, and the havoc it's wreaked in all kinds of other aspects of my life, was THE reason I finally sought help. It was no small fear or annoyance we were talking about addressing here, but the crisis of my lifetime (I don't have marriage or kids or the other things that may fulfill people, instead of or in addition to a career). And overall, for most of the last 1.5 years I had begun living like a shut-in, and had lost interest in absolutely everything.
Examples of the no-nonsense in this doc's therapy, which ensued after very little time spent on getting to know me and my history/tendencies:
After about three weeks I came in one day and said I was feeling so encouraged just by the fact that I had finally committed to therapy and things might get better, that I had ACTUALLY considered going to an art museum one day instead of just getting on the Internet and laying around in my pajamas. Sounds pathetic, but for me it was one of those baby steps, the fact that I had actually felt INTEREST in something -- and a healthy, mind-nurturing thing at that -- had felt like progress, and I presented it that way.
He said: Wouldn't it be better to use that enthusiasm to start looking for another job?
Is it just me, or was that a little premature to suggest to someone who is even having trouble leaving the house and grooming? And who came to you to help overcome a life-long phobia, that for eight years straight now has absolutely festered due to working at home?
Then, he asked me, "Let's clarify something. DO you *have* to work?"
I immediately said "OF COURSE!" taking not only financial well-being into consideration but also emotional. Then, being one to look at questions from all sides and address the literal interpretation as well, I added "...now, if you mean will I end up living under a BRIDGE if I don't work, no. My family would want to help, but I have NEVER thought of that as a viable option." That is EXACTLY how I put it, and exactly how I felt about it.
He said: "Manipulation is a skill you can put to good use, you know."
Also, I had told him that in past office jobs I've sometimes had humiliating problems with completely breaking down when trying to confront or clear up any matter, even of a pretty routine nature. I'd have anxiety attacks and hyperventilate, shake, cry/gasp, forget what I was going to say.
So, he asked me what I thought it would take to make me feel comfortable in a job. I said, "I often jump into ill-suited or menial jobs due to not knowing what I am good at, which exacerbates my insecurities and being intimidated by strong, assertive people. And then, I am not even good at the menial job I can't stand. So. I think I could hold my head up more consistently and not take everything so personally if I was actually doing something I knew I was good at, and could instead focus on knowing I was making a contribution, despite my shortcomings."
That is what I believe in my heart, and is it not also pretty much just common sense? I was leading into what I thought could be a very productive and achieveable goal, which would be for us to determine that some kind of career testing would be a logical next step.
But he said: "You can't walk in and start at the top, you know."
I thought that was just useless, and was just more hunting only for negatives, and ones that weren't even there. I had never made any statements to indicate that I was interested in power, luxury or notoriety, because all of those things pretty much repel me. Nor, to indicate that I had a big ego and didn't think I should have to be bothered with working myself up through the ranks like other humans. If he was going to say anything at all, it wouldn't have been inappropriate for it to be along the lines of trying to have faith that maybe you'll find you are capable of accomplishing more than you think you are, or may have interests you didn't know you did.
That last one was pretty much the final straw. I saw it all as signs that he had put me in some particular box early on, that I knew did not fit. But I let him get me to keep coming back for weeks just to disagree about whether his was the best approach for me. Like I mentioned, I hadn't even known I was in analysis rather than some "regular" kind of talk therapy.
I told him that by no means had I EVER wanted to avoid looking at possible negatives (and I was excellent at suggesting them myself), but where exactly had his originated from? No answer at all. Tell me a single positive thing you have ever balanced the negative out with (because other than these comments, there was virtual silence from him at all times)? "Uh... I've laughed at your sense of humor sometimes, haven't I?" Tell me a single suggestion you've ever made, or even validation you've given to my own suggestions or perceptions of what my needs and problems are? "I'll have to think about it and tell you next time." (I did ask again with every next time, but that would again turn into "I'll answer you next time." (It was actually then that he also admitted his memory for detail wasn't very good!)
Finally after weeks of no direct answers, he said he had merely been trying out a variety of possibilities, but that none of them had ended up fitting. I asked where the "variety" was, I saw only one theme. No answer. And I also asked why he hadn't told me weeks ago -- when I first starting getting upset and first started asking him to explain any comments I didn't understand -- that the obvious roads he had gone down hadn't "seemed to fit." The answer? "What's important here is WHY IT MATTERS TO YOU what I think." (Uh, because I've made a huge emotional and financial investment in your guidance maybe??? Who *should* get the feedback from you if not me, my parents or your racquetball partner?? No, btw, I never actually spoke that way!)
Sorry, I didn't mean to get into all that. But I would really like to hear any opinions on whether it was just me, or if this kind of thing would offend just about anyone (for whom it wasn't accurate). I feel much worse now than when I went in, and it's not the "healthy" kind of feeling bad. Credentialed "experts" hold a lot of emotional power over the down and out and vulnerable.
-----
> This was actually the sort of thing I was talking about on my thread about therapist fit. <----
<<<<<< I'm glad you mentioned that -- I will go read it. I often forget that it could help me a lot to read the Psych board, even though I am not currently in therapy. Even *especially* because I'm not, but need to!-----
> I also kind of wonder if there isn't a geographic/cultural component, although I don't like to stereotype. East coast, west coast, south, north. I wonder if it makes a difference as to preferred style? <-----
<<<<< That *is* interesting; I've never thought about it before either. It does seem logical that those would be factors sometimes...Oh, btw, happy Mother's Day to all applicable Babblers! :- )
Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2004, at 17:46:55
In reply to Re: On the other hand... would this bother you?, posted by spoc on May 9, 2004, at 13:44:25
I wouldn't have lasted nearly as long as you did. But, you know, his approach doesn't sound much like classic psychoanalysis at all. It was very judgemental. In fact he seems an awful like biofeedback guy (a psychologist I saw *very* briefly for biofeedback). And he was CBT. But he started out by making rude assumptions about my therapist and then by the next session about me.
You did better than I did. I lasted three sessions.
I don't know. I suspect the idea that this sort of therapist has is to be provocative. To initiate change by causing anger. And they've only got that one tool. All they've got is a hammer. Be provocative, get them angry, and cause them to look at their lives. They lack flexibility. So clients like you and I and most of the known civilized world are not likely to respond to their provocation kindly. They probably have immense turnover, but see it as proving their assumption that most people really don't want to change.
When in reality, a good therapist has a lot of tools at his or her disposal. A good therapist knows when and with whom provocation will yield good results. And uses it sparingly and only when it will yield good results. Even a supportive therapy can slowly and gently lead a client to change. And there are therapies in between.
I wouldn't give up on therapy yet. You just got a bad therapist. No flexibility.
Posted by lonelygirl on May 9, 2004, at 19:22:02
In reply to Re: On the other hand... would this bother you?, posted by spoc on May 9, 2004, at 13:44:25
Wow, spoc, this guy really sounds remarkably unhelpful. I don't know if the problem was the fact that he was trying to do analysis or if he just didn't know what the heck he was doing. I am kind of jumping to conclusions here, but it looks like he wasn’t even listening to you! I do have to say I admire you for confronting him about his “approach.” Looks like he basically admitted that he’s rather incompetent.
All of those things definitely would have bothered me. I am a very pessimistic, cynical person, so for me to mention anything positive (like how you thought about going to a museum) sort of feels like going out on a limb to me. To be shot down like that would not only fail to inspire me to use my energy to find a new job, but would probably destroy the positive thought altogether.
As for the comments about manipulation and starting at the top, those just look like indications that he wasn’t even listening to you, but whatever he thought you were saying, the way he put it was needlessly rude and unsupportive. I think it is very discouraging when a supposed “expert” is unable to help you. Kind of makes you feel hopeless, doesn’t it?
I’m sorry to see that you had such a bad experience. I guess I’d be kind of a hypocrite to suggest that you try again, but there really are some good ones out there. I think you would like my psychologist… Ok, I think EVERYONE would like him, because he’s awesome :). Seriously, though, I think that he has a good mix of supportiveness and practicality. He’s very kind and encouraging, but not “overly nurturing.” He has a very rational, logical approach to things (which seems like exactly what you’re looking for), but he’s not mean and unfeeling. His orientation is CBT, so perhaps if you decide to look for someone else, you should consider looking for someone who does CBT.
Posted by spoc on May 9, 2004, at 20:27:21
In reply to Re: On the other hand... would this bother you? » spoc, posted by lonelygirl on May 9, 2004, at 19:22:02
Thanks guys, very helpful insights. I'm glad I was specific about some instances instead of just making somewhat broad references to what wasn't working. And I do apologize for continuing to sporadically crab about this pdoc. I don't even know if he practices a lot of talk therapy in general, or may do much of his business in those short med-prescribing time bytes. I really never asked him anything beforehand, thinking being all fresh and naive would be better!!
But honestly, I don't intend to not try again, and underneath it all this really isn't my opinion of therapy or therapists even now. I only lasted as long as I did due to deference to his presumed expertise, but should have listened to my gut (it's probably amazing how often I say the same things over and over, assuming people don't remember, but maybe they do!). I was writing recently about another situational influence I've had lately that is leading to more anger than I used to have, and I think this episode added to it, because I felt like I was being told to let go of the few remaining things I thought I deserved to feel good about (like some things about my character).
So I hope to sing another tune here someday, and will try again! Thanks. :- D
This is the end of the thread.
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