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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 35 to 59 of 59. Go back in thread:
Posted by crushedout on February 6, 2004, at 16:06:18
In reply to Re: disclaimer re judging her » crushedout, posted by terrics on February 6, 2004, at 16:00:23
nope, nobody jumped into laps. yep, we're both female. she's married to a man.
> Hi, I think you both seem to be handling this attraction well. Nobody jumped into anyone's lap; or did they? It is really difficult to be in such an intimate relationship with someone you are attracted to. A really wonderful part of therapy is the intimacy, the feeling of trust and security. Try not to lose that, as in my opinion it is MUCH MORE important than the sexual part. I have been through something similar, but am settled into a non-sexual but very intimate relationship with my T. [I have a personal question which of course you do not have to answer.] Are you both female? p.s. I think the intimacy lasts and the sex fades over time. terrics
Posted by crushedout on February 6, 2004, at 16:57:35
In reply to Re: I got my wish » crushedout, posted by Fallen4myT on February 6, 2004, at 13:11:11
This made me feel so much better. I worry that it means I'll keep hoping and keep getting depressed when my hopes get dashed (by things she says). I have to be careful.
One of the things I'm hoping her admission will help me with is opening up to her even more than I already have. Like about my fantasies about her, etc., to begin with. So, here's my question: Do I share with her this dim hope that we actually can be lovers maybe possibly one day? I dunno. I think it will be hard for me to do, because I'll want to protect one last little shred of my fantasy from being destroyed, but maybe that's the very reason I should do it. But then that kind of means we're wrong, Fallen, to want to hang onto this hope. I dunno. I need it so bad. It keeps me alive.
What do you think? Should I talk to her about it, or just cherish it?
> Anytime, and I really mean it. I may be crusified by others for my view on it but hey, you didn't ever think she would say she was attracted I bet..and she was soooo :) hope is there and we both know there HAS to be a net so we know to look and be open for others but hey I love that hope and need it too :) And for what it's worth I have written off things only to have them come true. BEST to stay safe in its a dim hope as we said but come on...there IS hope and I for one and happy for you..Wish I could ASK my T and get that answer in words not just deeds
>
> > Thank you so much, Fallen, for saying this. In the way that you did. Of course, there is always that tiny hope, because nothing is impossible, right? Anything can happen in this crazy world. And it's not even impossible that if it did happen, it wouldn't be a disaster. Although these are very unlikely outcomes, so you're right that I need to stay open to other things, and not let that hope override everything else. But if it keeps me going, why give it up entirely? I see no point. Even if she *says* it can never happen, that doesn't mean it can't. Someday, a long way down the road. If we both still want it at that point.
> >
> > Like I said, this is getting far-fetched, but the point is it's not impossible. Anyway, thanks. It's good not to lose hope, as long as it's kept in perspective.
> >
> >
> > > Oh and I wanted to add though it may be dim. I think there is still a tiny bit of hope even with her..maybe. Don't give up on it , give it time, work the therapy part of it and keep your eyes and heart open to other loving people
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Fallen4myT on February 6, 2004, at 17:13:37
In reply to question » Fallen4myT, posted by crushedout on February 6, 2004, at 16:57:35
Yo Crushed,
My opinion is to keep it inside..not cause it might not come true but you MAY spook her as it is too soon and she is working on her own issues on this..like her looking at what she feels. Being she is married she may be scared INSIDE hey she IS human T or not on the female attraction deal...so why tip her off while shes looking inside herself? I say lay in wait. For instance, I am married and have been before if the one woman I had an affair with had pushed me I would have ran...but she was smart and held back cause she was gay and must have known I was scared of my own feelings...so years went by as friends WITH attraction and then wham it all happened and was GOOD so give her time...Also its not JUST the girl thing its her job and so much..she needs time. Hope rocks and you got it but must have patience and respect her space..I MEAN she admitted she is attracted to you that was a huge step one :)
Posted by crushedout on February 6, 2004, at 17:21:19
In reply to Re: question, posted by Fallen4myT on February 6, 2004, at 17:13:37
Hmm, I definitely don't think the whole lesbian thing scares her at all. The married thing and therapist thing, yes, I could see that. She wouldn't want to even think about any possibility that could screw those up right now maybe, so yeah, it could scare her.But it scares me to keep this hope inside, too. For my therapy. So I dunno. It's more important that I get better than that I keep her interested in me for some dim possibility way down the line, ya know? I guess maybe I'm answering my own question but I'm really undecided. I kind of see it from both angles. I'm just wondering if the two angles are a devil on one shoulder (no offense, but that would kind of be you -- don't get me wrong: i LOVE this devil!) and an angel on the other.
> Yo Crushed,
> My opinion is to keep it inside..not cause it might not come true but you MAY spook her as it is too soon and she is working on her own issues on this..like her looking at what she feels. Being she is married she may be scared INSIDE hey she IS human T or not on the female attraction deal...so why tip her off while shes looking inside herself? I say lay in wait. For instance, I am married and have been before if the one woman I had an affair with had pushed me I would have ran...but she was smart and held back cause she was gay and must have known I was scared of my own feelings...so years went by as friends WITH attraction and then wham it all happened and was GOOD so give her time...Also its not JUST the girl thing its her job and so much..she needs time. Hope rocks and you got it but must have patience and respect her space..I MEAN she admitted she is attracted to you that was a huge step one :)
Posted by Fallen4myT on February 6, 2004, at 17:39:39
In reply to Re: question » Fallen4myT, posted by crushedout on February 6, 2004, at 17:21:19
HAHAH no offense on the devil deal :) I am not like a lot of people in that I want what I want when I want it and at all cost. So to me THIS IS JUST ON ME ..If my T ever made a move..I would go for it and seek another therapist and not regret or be damaged by it cause I see T's as very very human.
SO maybe you are thinking in a smarter way to deal with it (intellectual) than a feeling way ..(hehe Devil ). You're in no huge rush on this or is it eating you alive? See I kinda think if you say ANY TINY HOPE she has no option but to say none even if there is or will be some...but maybe that's just me and the way I think.
Posted by gardenergirl on February 6, 2004, at 20:39:21
In reply to Re: I got my wish, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 22:32:33
> I'm thrilled because she's my ideal woman, and she's so cool, and beautiful, and successful, and older, and she's attracted to ME. I don't take that for granted. It's very exciting.
Crushed,
I admire you for dealing with something so intense and for so long! I don't have much to add because it looks like you are getting a variety of opinions. It's just that the above line struck a chord in me. If you are into reading about therapy, you might want to read some of Kohut's works, particularly about idealizing transference. This is a phenonenon that makes perfect sense based on developmental needs. It may give you additional insight into your feelings.I wish you the best of luck in dealing with this. I'm sure that whatever direction your therapy goes, it will continue to take courage and honesty, as all therapy does.
Take care,
gg
Posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 10:38:54
In reply to Re: I got my wish » crushedout, posted by gardenergirl on February 6, 2004, at 20:39:21
I'm very aware that I idealize her in many ways, but isn't also possible that she's my ideal woman, just in reality? I think that's at least partially the case. She has many of the qualities I've always looked for in a lover.It just makes me feel bad when it all gets chalked up to transference.
> > I'm thrilled because she's my ideal woman, and she's so cool, and beautiful, and successful, and older, and she's attracted to ME. I don't take that for granted. It's very exciting.
>
> Crushed,
> I admire you for dealing with something so intense and for so long! I don't have much to add because it looks like you are getting a variety of opinions. It's just that the above line struck a chord in me. If you are into reading about therapy, you might want to read some of Kohut's works, particularly about idealizing transference. This is a phenonenon that makes perfect sense based on developmental needs. It may give you additional insight into your feelings.
>
> I wish you the best of luck in dealing with this. I'm sure that whatever direction your therapy goes, it will continue to take courage and honesty, as all therapy does.
>
> Take care,
>
> gg
Posted by gardenergirl on February 7, 2004, at 13:01:54
In reply to Re: I got my wish » gardenergirl, posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 10:38:54
I'm sorry my suggestion made you feel bad, and it is certainly credible that she is your ideal woman. But transference is a real thing. The feelings are real. If, and I'm just saying *if* your feelings are part of a transference, that does not make them any less real or true. It just means that your feelings are useful therapeutically.
Just something to think about. I'm *not* saying this definitely applies to you. It's just another way (of many)to look at your situation. Only you and you T can figure out what is true for you.
Kohut viewed idealizing as one part of a normal human developmental need. Children idealize their parents or some significant adult other out of a need to develop a healthy self-esteem. "Mommy and Daddy are perfect, and they love me, so I must be perfect as well." What needs to happen, and didn't really happen enough for me, I might add, is that the parents provide something called mirroring. This involves the parents reflecting the childs feelings back to him. "Yes dear, I agree that is good. You are good" is the message. The child needs to hear that in order to develop a healthy self-esteem. If the child does not get enough mirroring (similar to validation), then the adult continues to look for idealized objects for self-esteem, because they were not given what they need to feel good about themselves internally (for whatever reason) as a child.
I just wanted to clarify what I meant by an idealizing transference. *If* this is what is going on with you, it does not make your needs and feelings any less real or valid. I just think they *could* be used to tell you more about yourself.
Feel free to tell me to jump in the lake,
gg
Posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 13:11:30
In reply to Re: I got my wish » crushedout, posted by gardenergirl on February 7, 2004, at 13:01:54
please don't jump in the lake (at least not unless it's warm out and you feel like taking a swim). that was interesting, and potentially very useful to me.but but but i just want to say: i know transference is real. i just don't think that's all that's going on here. i think part of it is chemistry, and genuine mutual like/love and attraction, that would occur were we to meet anywhere else in the world. that's my point. and for some reason i feel it's very important.
i know there's transference going on also, and i also know that that part is powerful and real and useful to my therapy. i just don't like it getting all chalked up to that. why? that's an interesting question. why does that bother me. i have to think about it.
> I'm sorry my suggestion made you feel bad, and it is certainly credible that she is your ideal woman. But transference is a real thing. The feelings are real. If, and I'm just saying *if* your feelings are part of a transference, that does not make them any less real or true. It just means that your feelings are useful therapeutically.
>
> Just something to think about. I'm *not* saying this definitely applies to you. It's just another way (of many)to look at your situation. Only you and you T can figure out what is true for you.
>
> Kohut viewed idealizing as one part of a normal human developmental need. Children idealize their parents or some significant adult other out of a need to develop a healthy self-esteem. "Mommy and Daddy are perfect, and they love me, so I must be perfect as well." What needs to happen, and didn't really happen enough for me, I might add, is that the parents provide something called mirroring. This involves the parents reflecting the childs feelings back to him. "Yes dear, I agree that is good. You are good" is the message. The child needs to hear that in order to develop a healthy self-esteem. If the child does not get enough mirroring (similar to validation), then the adult continues to look for idealized objects for self-esteem, because they were not given what they need to feel good about themselves internally (for whatever reason) as a child.
>
> I just wanted to clarify what I meant by an idealizing transference. *If* this is what is going on with you, it does not make your needs and feelings any less real or valid. I just think they *could* be used to tell you more about yourself.
>
> Feel free to tell me to jump in the lake,
> gg
Posted by Fallen4myT on February 7, 2004, at 13:36:06
In reply to Re: I got my wish » crushedout, posted by gardenergirl on February 6, 2004, at 20:39:21
For what it is worth not ALL therapists and areas in psychology agree on exactly what transferance is and some totally discount it. Ya know, sometimes a cigar is justa cigar and my T has told me straight up just cause youre a client does NOT make it transferance. Time will tell for you I bet its both.
Posted by Rigby on February 7, 2004, at 18:16:24
In reply to Re: I got my wish » gardenergirl, posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 10:38:54
I think that whether it's your therapist or the girl next door, when we develop intense crushes for people, or even "fall in love" we're acting *somewhat* upon transference. Don't most of us have huge needs and urges from our past that need filling?
I think the "trap" that I learned about, and this is by being with the woman I idealized (older, gorgeous, brilliant, a well respected M.D.!) is that, yeah, you're in this "state" of arousal around "getting" this person (the chase), then being with them (yummy!!) and then, after a while, years even, you really begin to have a look at what you've "got." Luckily, in my case, the woman I lusted after is wonderful; but it's not like I'm in the same "state" I was before about her. I had to go have sex with another woman to get me there again--and again and again. It's a difficult pattern.
I believe the crushed state is similar to a wonderful, wonderful drug. But once you do "get" the person, in time, it wears off and if you don't go deeper to figure out what's up you'll leave her or maybe go out on her to get that high again.
Love and lust are fabulous things. For me, learning that they can also mask some demons has been difficult. Very difficult.Put another way, if all you can think about is her, pretty much, how getting her is the only thing you can focus on then, how if you can't have her you'll die, etc., well, I'd call that a distraction--a pleasant one but possibly something to examine in terms of running away from some stuff (I plead very guilty as charged on this one.)
I think actually by confronting the "can we ever be lovers" question is a good thing. Because the sooner you know it's out of the question, the sooner you will have to re-focus the therapy onto you--kicking, screaming, whaling, totally ticked off you can't get what you want--but it'll be back on *you.* Whether it be the pain of disappointment or other pain in your life but in either case, the focus goes back to you and not to her and how you can "get" her. This is assuming your therapist is skilled and has some backbone.I've "gotten" most of the women I've wanted. And nearly got my therapist too. But when she caught herself in it she called it off and, I think by doing so, I grew. Not finished growing, by a long shot, but not getting what you want when you almost always do, through tried and true methods is a really, really tough experience but in a lot of ways unbelievably beneficial.
Having said all this, I don't think you can learn much about matters of the heart from batting them around on a message board. The heart wants what it wants. You can only learn by going out there and living and loving--getting your heart broken and feeling it soar.
Posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 18:29:37
In reply to I Think Life's Full of Transference, posted by Rigby on February 7, 2004, at 18:16:24
that's all i'm saying. certain things are chemistry, and just regular old meeting someone cool that's not like *anybody* else.i don't think my crush is distracting me from painful stuff. i really don't. i'm sure you don't believe me. but i'm facing all kinds of painful stuff i never could before. if anything, the crush is just making it more bearable, by being more painful than the other stuff. so, it's weird. i *used* to get crushes like that, but this one's different.
Posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 18:35:33
In reply to I Think Life's Full of Transference, posted by Rigby on February 7, 2004, at 18:16:24
The problem with this is she will of course say we can't and I won't believe her. Because she can't really know for sure. That's the beauty of life. Anything can happen. So, actually, I have to give her more credit: she probably will admit that anything's possible. And I will still have this hope. (So I guess that means it's safe for me to bring it up, actually.) And I really don't think that's a bad thing. I think this hope is a really good thing, as long as I keep it in perspective. Maybe she can help me to do that.> I think actually by confronting the "can we ever be lovers" question is a good thing. Because the sooner you know it's out of the question, the sooner you will have to re-focus the therapy onto you--kicking, screaming, whaling, totally ticked off you can't get what you want--but it'll be back on *you.* Whether it be the pain of disappointment or other pain in your life but in either case, the focus goes back to you and not to her and how you can "get" her. This is assuming your therapist is skilled and has some backbone.
Posted by Rigby on February 7, 2004, at 18:50:42
In reply to can we ever be lovers » Rigby, posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 18:35:33
This sounds like a good strategy. You seem to have it all pretty well mapped out, actually! So, best of luck with all this. I'm hoping for the best for you!
Posted by Dinah on February 7, 2004, at 21:08:36
In reply to can we ever be lovers » Rigby, posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 18:35:33
If you really love her, wouldn't you want what was best for her? Would possibly ending her career and possibly losing her family be a good thing for the woman you love?
Posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 21:14:48
In reply to Re: can we ever be lovers » crushedout, posted by Dinah on February 7, 2004, at 21:08:36
> If you really love her, wouldn't you want what was best for her? Would possibly ending her career and possibly losing her family be a good thing for the woman you love?
>Oh, yes, it would have to be what's best for her. If this fantasy were to come true, I'm imagining it a long way down the road (at least two years after she stopped being my T, so it wouldn't be an ethical violation), and my assumption is that things would not have worked out with her husband. I'm not saying that I expect her to get a divorce, but that would probably be a condition for my fantasy coming true. And keep in mind that this is only a dim hope. I was actually imagining this ten years down the road, when I'm 42 and she's 53. It's really just a fantasy, Dinah, but not an impossible one is what I'm saying.
Posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 21:22:11
In reply to Re: can we ever be lovers » crushedout, posted by Dinah on February 7, 2004, at 21:08:36
An addendum: Don't get me wrong. If she asked me to make out with her tomorrow, I wouldn't hesitate. I'm no saint (nor do I think it's my responsibility to protect her career or her marriage were she to make that choice). But that's not what I'm thinking of when I talk about my hope that someday we could be lovers.
Posted by Dinah on February 7, 2004, at 21:29:21
In reply to don't get me wrong » Dinah, posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 21:22:11
>
> An addendum: Don't get me wrong. If she asked me to make out with her tomorrow, I wouldn't hesitate. I'm no saint (nor do I think it's my responsibility to protect her career or her marriage were she to make that choice). But that's not what I'm thinking of when I talk about my hope that someday we could be lovers.Hmmmm... Then I'll say no more. But I wonder. What do you consider your responsibility to be?
Posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 21:38:45
In reply to Re: don't get me wrong, posted by Dinah on February 7, 2004, at 21:29:21
> Hmmmm... Then I'll say no more. But I wonder. What do you consider your responsibility to be?What do you mean? I'm responsible for taking care of myself (I didn't say I was good at it, just respsible for it -- nor did I say I was willing to fulfill that responsibility all the time) and not intentionally hurting others if I can help it. (Sometimes you have to intentionally hurt others in order to take care of yourself -- for example, ending a relationship with someone because it's making you unhappy. You're intentionally hurting them, but you can't help it.)
To take another example, though, I would never consider myself responsible the hurt my T's husband might experience if she were to sleep with me, since that is between the two of them, and for all I know they don't believe in monogamy (I don't, but that's irrelevant). But I can't, for example, put a hit on him because he's in my way. Nor could I force her to sleep with me. That would be very bad.
Does that answer your question?
Posted by Dinah on February 7, 2004, at 21:43:58
In reply to Re: don't get me wrong » Dinah, posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 21:38:45
Posted by Fallen4myT on February 7, 2004, at 21:44:58
In reply to Re: don't get me wrong » Dinah, posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 21:38:45
I don't know but I think each person is responsible for their OWN behaviour and actions. To cheat on or leave my husband is up to me not to the object of my affection unless I was mentally unable to make a decision or a child thats JMO
A question I am intrested in is...what do you want to do from here Crushed? Ask her and then ??? If she sez no hope? If she sez dim hope? I am just curious and you do not have to answer
Posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 21:53:09
In reply to Re: don't get me wrong, posted by Fallen4myT on February 7, 2004, at 21:44:58
Yes, I totally agree with you. I think each person is responsible for him or herself, unless you are being directly destructive to another.I'm not going to do anything, really, from here, other than work on my therapy. There's no way I'm going to ask her to be my lover. I know she would say no. I may talk about the dim hope, but not as a question to her. Just as something that I need to hang onto, as part of who I am.
She said she's going to start sharing more of her self with me, disclosing more about herself, as a way for me to learn to see her as less perfect, more human, and perhaps idealize her less. This sounds great to me (I'm sure it sounds sketchy to many of you), but I think it will be tricky for a couple reasons. She's worried about me losing respect for her. I'm worried about falling more deeply in love. But either way, it's exciting. (Well, I guess if I lose respect for her, that's not very exciting.)
> I don't know but I think each person is responsible for their OWN behaviour and actions. To cheat on or leave my husband is up to me not to the object of my affection unless I was mentally unable to make a decision or a child thats JMO
> A question I am intrested in is...what do you want to do from here Crushed? Ask her and then ??? If she sez no hope? If she sez dim hope? I am just curious and you do not have to answer
>
Posted by Fallen4myT on February 7, 2004, at 22:03:58
In reply to Re: don't get me wrong » Fallen4myT, posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 21:53:09
Sounds like a good plan to me anyhow. I know so much about my T some say mine tells me toooo much stuff that would make some blush and so on. It doesnt make me feel any different on him as I know he is human and some stuff he tells me I know he is like all thinking its good about him but I am not into the same thing...and thats cool cause I like a person who is their OWN person if I was looking for a carbon copy of me....man I would be bored :D
Posted by Crooked Heart on February 8, 2004, at 3:43:46
In reply to I Think Life's Full of Transference, posted by Rigby on February 7, 2004, at 18:16:24
Just to say thanks for that post, Rigby. There was so much that was wise in it.
I think you've partly disproved your own last point though : -- one big lesson I'm learning from this board is that there are such honest different ways of looking at the same thing.
Thanks again.
Posted by Rigby on February 8, 2004, at 20:06:53
In reply to Re: I Think Life's Full of Transference » Rigby, posted by Crooked Heart on February 8, 2004, at 3:43:46
nm
This is the end of the thread.
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