![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fallsfall on February 3, 2004, at 20:58:29
Gardener Girl asks if I am "someone who researches things in order to understand more about whatever the topic is?"
Yeah. That is me. I have to understand everything. I think there are a couple of reasons (probably none of them are actually positive...).
I find I read Psychology books obsessively when I'm feeling unsure in therapy. I think that if I understand all the Psychology stuff that I'll be able to either fix it myself, or tell my therapist exactly the things he needs to know to help me. I have come to the conclusion that I read Psych books when I am losing faith in my therapist. (I know I'm in trouble when I have 10 or more books out of the University library at a time)
I'm also finding that my therapist's approval is crucial to my self-esteem (actually, I don't have self-esteem - I am only as good as other people think I am). So I try to be as knowledgable as I can be to show them how smart I am and how hard I'm working. They keep telling me that doing all this reading isn't necessarily a good thing, but somehow I still believe that it will catapult me into their "most impressive patients" list.
I think I've done similar "research" work on other topics in the past, and it actually has helped my life be more successful. But, somehow, psychology is just SOOOO foreign to me that even though I read and read and read, I still just don't seem to get it. I can talk about it, and I usually know what behaviors are more successful in therapy (for other people). But I haven't a clue, for myself, about what I'm supposed to be doing.
I can't count the number of times I've said in therapy "I don't know what you want me to do. Just tell me what to do, please?" But somehow, they never tell me what to do. So I keep guessing and looking for subtle clues that say whether I guessed right or not.
My current therapist has perfected the blank slate look, and I think that I am now panicking because I can't tell whether what I'm doing is good or not, and he won't tell me. So even things that are pretty clearly good seem unclear to me and I oscillate between thinking they are good and thinking they are horrid (just a little splitting mixed in here, too). I think he is withholding clues about what is good or bad because he wants me to be forced to decide for myself. I can't decide for myself because I don't know what the criteria are. I can make decisions about computer programs or washing machines or which kind of dog fits with me the best because I can list the criteria and determine which attributes make something a better choice. I can weigh different attributes (does it matter more how heavy it is, or how fast it is?). So essentially, I can come up with an algebraic expression that I can plug all of the attributes of the different washing machines into to determine which one is best for me.
For some reason, with Psychology, I can't figure out WHAT the attributes are, never mind how to weigh them. I can't even figure out what the final result should be.
Why is it that I can know as much about a topic as I do about Psychology, and I can (maybe too easily) tell everyone else what THEY should do - but I am so very, very lost when it comes to me?
P.S. Gardenergirl - thank you for that question. It helped me to make this issue more concrete in my mind. Those are the questions that will make you a valuable therapist.
Posted by badhaircut on February 3, 2004, at 21:53:27
In reply to Research, posted by fallsfall on February 3, 2004, at 20:58:29
fallsfall,
Your whole post resonated with me. So much that I don't even know what to say. Except thanks for writing it.
-bhc
Posted by Dinah on February 3, 2004, at 22:23:09
In reply to Research, posted by fallsfall on February 3, 2004, at 20:58:29
I have researched extensively from day one. At first I concentrated on basic therapist techniques. Because if he was going to manipulate me, by gum I was going to understand how. In fact, just last session he applied a technique that I had read about. And he did it so beautifully that I was torn between being impressed and actually listening. I wanted to put him up for a positive reframing of intentions award.
Then I started in on trying to find out what was wrong with me. I had already done significant research when that whole schizotypal thing came up, and that sent me off on a quest to discover what was wrong with me. Including recreating the MMPI, complete with scoring protocols, on a spreadsheet.
I now think I pretty well have what's wrong with me pegged down, so I study different techniques that were designed to work with what's wrong with me.
At first it was a deep dark secret. When my husband came with me to a few sessions, I told him he could tell my therapist anything but my choice in reading materials.
But eventually it grew impossible to hide. I was able to use this board as a cover for my activities. "I read about this so I did some research." And then I started talking about ideas and therapies that he had never heard of.
So the other day, when talking about something the EMDR lady said, he said he wouldn't have used that terminology with a layperson. I was torn. On the one hand, I had been offended by the terminology. On the other - a layperson??!!!!!
I don't know that I need my therapist's approval, and he's not really forthcoming with it. He'll tell me I did good work if I'm really visibly upset and he wants to encourage me not to retreat. In other words, only if he has a purpose to do it.
My concern is that he not be angry with me. If he's not angry with me, I'm fine.
By the way, that was in our marriage ceremony. We had told the officiant a little about ourselves. And my husband and I are both people who research everything before we do it. So before we sell a house, we go buy all the house selling books and learn all about it. Apparently it struck the guy, because that was in the sermon part of the marriage. :)
Posted by gardenergirl on February 3, 2004, at 22:31:13
In reply to Research, posted by fallsfall on February 3, 2004, at 20:58:29
Wow, you are welcome for the question, and I thank you for the kind words. Today's a red-letter day! (I never understood where that came from, but I like to use it.)
In some ways I am like you in that I tend never to take things on blind faith. I always want to know why something is or how something works. This is good when you are making decisions or in school, as it increases the value of learning.
But in therapy, this is somewhat problematic. Part of therapy invovles letting go of control of the process and trusting (yikes, I originally typed "trysting" Can you say "transference"?) the T and the process to get you where you need to go. Boy, that is SO hard! Especially for well-read people. My T had to remind me more than once, in a gentle way mind you, that HE was the T and I was the client. I was also trying too hard to figure out what I was supposed to say and where things were going. I was also trying to interpret things myself (oocupational hazard, I guess).
But anyway, once I gave in and let go and began to trust the process, things moved along better. I stopped worrying if I was saying or doing the "right" or "wrong" thing and I trusted Bear to guide me as needed if I got off track. He does this quite unobtrusively. In fact, even though I know how psychodynamic therapy is supposed to work, it still felt almost "magical" to me when I noticed I was behaving differently (and more adaptively) in situations bound to cause me anxiety. He and I never talk about behavioral stuff except in the context of me griping or bringing issues up. So how did I manage to "act" better? I believe it is through developing insight into my defenses and issues, learning to accept that I am a certain way, and by accepting that I developed a paternal transference with him and that is OKAY.
I feel like I've come a long way, but in the moment to moment sessions, I can't really pinpoint any "right" or "wrong" responses or actions. It really feels like magic, which goes against all of my analytical needs.
So I guess I am not really just going on blind faith with Bear, as I do know how things are supposed to work based on my training and education. But I've allowed him to lead the way and allowed myself to take risks without worrying about being right or wrong.
I don't mean to imply here that you are similar, but I have a client who, I think, tends to censor herself out of a similar desire to give the "right" responses. She is quite sensitive to being judged and evaluated in many different contexts. I think it would be a sign of real progress if she started to free associate more and censored less. Even when I try to suggest that maybe she experiences me as evaluating her or judging her, she tends to give the "right" response by saying, "but you are not supposed to do that." She cannot suggest to me that perhaps she experiences me as critical as well. She knows rationally (I hope) that I am not critical of her. If she feels it in her gut, she doesn't want to admit it, because that would not be rational. Does that make sense?
Fallsfall, I bet you are a challenging (in a good way) and gratifying client to work with due to your research and interest in the process. Perhaps you could talk with your T about these issues? It may help to relieve some of your concerns about "right" and "wrong" responses. I tend to believe there are no right or wrong, there simply ARE responses.
Take care,
gg
Posted by alexandra_k on February 4, 2004, at 3:09:31
In reply to Re: Research » fallsfall, posted by gardenergirl on February 3, 2004, at 22:31:13
Wow ((((((guys))))).
I haven't had this discussion with anyone before but I have also done the whole research thing in trying to figure out what is wrong with me and what I need to get better. I didn't know anybody else did this.... But, sure, of course they do!
I got so mad with people assuming that I wanted someone to just come along and rescue me (perils of BPD diagnosis) - and in reading that this is a 'typical' symptom I am careful to emphasise that I am positvely doing all I can to help myself. (just need a little help sometimes people.. I can read the book but unfortunately I can't be my own therapist.). This has helped improve my relationship with clinicians immensely to emphasise this.
So I read to try to understand what is wrong. I'll admit that sometimes this helps as when I relate to stuff, and sometimes it hurts as when theorists assume stuff. Also reading about therapies is a mixed blessing but it is beautiful when you read about a technique and grimice 'that'll never work on me' and then someone does it so beautifully you find yourself 'falling for it' even though you 'know better'.
I used to wonder whether I was getting a little bit obsessive with the research... it was interfering with my studies and so I figured that the best thing for me to do was to integrate it and write on philosophy of psychology / psychopathology. Have written stuff and am hoping for publications this year (touch wood). Hopefully I can do something useful with respect to re-conceptualising disorders in a way that will reduce stigma and help clinicians feel empowered to help... Also the theorietical basis of treatments (often quite dodgey..) hopefully I can use my experiences and hurts to help others and help the system improve rather than just running it down..
Posted by gardenergirl on February 4, 2004, at 6:45:37
In reply to Re: Research, posted by alexandra_k on February 4, 2004, at 3:09:31
Oh, I am so impressed! What a great idea to integrate your reading like that. If only there was a way to integrate time on PB... Good luck with this. I know how important and exciting pubs are, so I wish you only the best. And it sounds like your ideas may really add to the clinical knowlege.
I too have had the experience of thinking, "well that's nice and dandy, but that won't work for me" and then discovering myself right into the middle of it. Can you believe I thought I would never experience transference? I don't know why I thought this. I don't know if I thougth I was too informed, too sophisticated, didn't need it, too aware of the process, whatever. Imagine my surprise when I found myself wanting to call my T after I passed my clincal competency exam. Holy paternal transference, batman! What a liberating and humbling experience.
Take care,
gg
Posted by Penny on February 4, 2004, at 8:35:22
In reply to Research, posted by fallsfall on February 3, 2004, at 20:58:29
Falls,
I too am a researcher. In fact, it's become almost a running joke of sorts with my therapist - I'll be telling her an anecdote about something and say, "so I started reading as much as I could about the subject" and she'll just nod knowingly. Or say, "I wouldn't expect anything else." I think she understands because I think she's a researcher too. She doesn't discourage me one bit, but my former T wasn't as keen on it - I think she worried that I researched too much.
I, personally, don't believe you can ever know too much about a subject you are interested in. Because no matter how much you know, there will always be more to learn. But that's just my opinion.
> Why is it that I can know as much about a topic as I do about Psychology, and I can (maybe too easily) tell everyone else what THEY should do - but I am so very, very lost when it comes to me?
I totally understand - it's because, IMO, things like psychological treatments, theories and methods usually follow the saying "Easier said than done" to a tee. It's the reason so many therapists are in therapy! Just because they have a degree that allows them to dish out advice and guidance to their patients doesn't mean they can always apply those methods to themselves. Our view of others is usually much clearer than our view of ourselves. Because we are the only ones in our heads, and we have to add in our own emotions to the equation, which can skew things (though is sometimes helpful).
Another thing is that we are usually too hard on ourselves. Speaking for myself, I would never expect from others the kind of perfection I strive for in myself - and the fact that I am no where near attaining perfection makes me dislike myself and my efforts that much more. But I can look at the things that you are doing in therapy, the hard, good work you are doing, and Dinah's courage in trying EMDR, and GG's attaining her Ph.D. and striving to become a wonderful therapist, and KK's willingness to always ask questions and examine her motives for the choices she makes, and so on, and I can applaud all of you for those things. But I cannot, will not, give myself credit for anything that I might consider 'good' in someone else. Ever. If you do it - that's fantastic! If I do it - well, why didn't I do it sooner?
But, I must say, you are clearly a stronger person than I am, because I don't think I could deal with the 'blank slate' response from my therapist. And because it seems to me that you are working far harder in therapy than I ever have...
And I'm learning so much from you, Falls. I always do.
(((fallsfall)))
P
Posted by fallsfall on February 4, 2004, at 9:12:06
In reply to Re: Research » fallsfall, posted by badhaircut on February 3, 2004, at 21:53:27
It is nice to know that we aren't alone. Now we just have to figure out how to FIX it!
Posted by fallsfall on February 4, 2004, at 9:21:15
In reply to Re: Research » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on February 3, 2004, at 22:23:09
"So the other day, when talking about something the EMDR lady said, he said he wouldn't have used that terminology with a layperson. I was torn. On the one hand, I had been offended by the terminology. On the other - a layperson??!!!!!"
That is funny. What a double edged sword.
Do you think that researching has helped at all in your progress? Do you know WHY you do it (other than it being a standard behavior for you - do you do it MORE for psychology than for other things?)
My approval need is clearly an "issue". If he is mad at me, I'm bad and very distressed. If I can't tell what he thinks, I'm extremely anxious - I HAVE to know.
Thanks for helping me feel less weird...
Posted by Racer on February 4, 2004, at 9:53:57
In reply to Research, posted by fallsfall on February 3, 2004, at 20:58:29
Oh, dear, I've been there and done that. It's a frustrating landscape to live in.
Here's a suggestion that sounds entirely stupid, but actually did a lot to help me. Go out and take a class on animal behavior. Take some riding lessons, find a dog training class at the SPCA, find out if your local zoo has any classes, do something that allows you to spend some time observing or working with animals.
OK, that sounds so far out that I've got to give a little explanation. Psychology is filled with abstractions, ideas, thoughts, observations about emotions, etc. It's an intellectually construct that acts as a bridge between emotional reality and Reality. It's about explaining thinking patterns and emotional patterns. Working with animals, you can't use words, you have to watch body language, you have to deal with emotions on a sub-verbal level, and you have to use behavior as a key to what's going on inside. Sometimes, you can learn a lot about people from working with animals. God knows I've learned a lot about myself, and my mother, and my aunt, and my husband, all from animals who've never spoken a single word to me. A lot of that knowledge, some of which I can't put into words, has done me a lot of good in dealing with T issues, and with the individuals directly.
One example: my mother and I have one of those suboptimal relationships -- although it's a lot better now, finally -- and for a few years we were at each others' throats pretty regularly. Not good, since I played taxi service for her once a week, every week. Then I started working with a mare who was a real pain in the you know where -- so bad I never wanted to ride again, because she just got under my skin so badly. One day, when she was afraid of the entire world, and irritated with me, and generally making me wish Mom had sent me to piano lessons instead of riding, I lost my temper. Now, in over 20 years of riding, I'd never once lost my temper at a horse. It's usually counter productive. Anyway, that little mare jumped one too many times, and I spanked her. Not abuse, mind you, but one good smack with a riding whip (doesn't damage, just a good sting). All of a sudden, she relaxed!!! She seemed to say, "Ah, she's going to stop me from being in charge!" After that, we had a few other minor issues, but she was a great mare from that day forward.
What did I learn? I learned that sometimes, you have to project a strength that you may not feel, and by doing so, the scary monster may get scared off. I use the same basic principle with my mother, too, frequently, and it works. When my mother gets into one of her prehysteric ruts, I turn on the In Charge routine, and it calms her down and eases the strain. Often, it's just too scary for my mother to be In Charge, and she goes into her own rut. When I going into Boss mode, she gets a chance to relax again, and let go of the fears. As a result of all this, my mother and I are getting along, expressing our love for one another better, and enjoying the time we spend together. All this resulted from learning from a horse.
So, the suggestion stands. Go out and do some direct animal stuff. (As for the books, I've got several shelves worth of child development, psychology, philosophy of psychology, etc. They've done a lot less good than the beasts. Dogs, cats, horses, those I've worked with directly. Chimpanzees I've only read about. still, more useful than any of the psych books.)
Posted by fallsfall on February 4, 2004, at 10:09:49
In reply to Re: Research » fallsfall, posted by gardenergirl on February 3, 2004, at 22:31:13
I read this post last night. I know that it is intended to be a hopeful post - "It will be OK, you *can* do it, and good things will happen". But all I got was terror. It is a little less frightening this morning - but not much.
>
> But in therapy, this is somewhat problematic. Part of therapy invovles letting go of control of the process and trusting (yikes, I originally typed "trysting" Can you say "transference"?) the T and the process to get you where you need to go. Boy, that is SO hard! Especially for well-read people. My T had to remind me more than once, in a gentle way mind you, that HE was the T and I was the client. I was also trying too hard to figure out what I was supposed to say and where things were going. I was also trying to interpret things myself (oocupational hazard, I guess).<<< I am getting better at letting myself truly respond to what he is saying in therapy. I used to plan and practice the whole session in advance. These days I rarely even bring a list of things to talk about. Just one idea.
>
> But anyway, once I gave in and let go and began to trust the process, things moved along better. I stopped worrying if I was saying or doing the "right" or "wrong" thing and I trusted Bear to guide me as needed if I got off track. He does this quite unobtrusively. In fact, even though I know how psychodynamic therapy is supposed to work, it still felt almost "magical" to me when I noticed I was behaving differently (and more adaptively) in situations bound to cause me anxiety. He and I never talk about behavioral stuff except in the context of me griping or bringing issues up. So how did I manage to "act" better? I believe it is through developing insight into my defenses and issues, learning to accept that I am a certain way, and by accepting that I developed a paternal transference with him and that is OKAY.<<< The problem is that I am not capable of being spontaneous (in therapy or anywhere else). I can't grasp that things don't have to be either "right" or "wrong". I can't fathom how something just "is". So, in my view, what I say HAS to be either right or wrong - helpful to therapy or not helpful to therapy. If I say things that are not helpful to therapy, then therapy will fail and I will never feel better. That is my agony.
<<< I see what you are saying to do, but - literally - I don't know how to do that. How can I tell myself that whatever I say/do is OK when my life hangs in the balance?
>
> I feel like I've come a long way, but in the moment to moment sessions, I can't really pinpoint any "right" or "wrong" responses or actions. It really feels like magic, which goes against all of my analytical needs.
><<< I do know that the truth is always more right than even a half truth. I try to be completely honest. But I think that I do have an agenda, and I am compelled to be sure that the agenda is right and that I follow it (and don't just ramble around - though I'm really trying to allow a little rambling). How am I supposed to decide what to talk about first? At a minimum, *I* have to make a decision on that. Perhaps after that I can let things wander. But we have to start somewhere.
> So I guess I am not really just going on blind faith with Bear, as I do know how things are supposed to work based on my training and education. But I've allowed him to lead the way and allowed myself to take risks without worrying about being right or wrong.
<<< I do tell the truth, even if I don't like it, or think he won't like it. Is that what you mean about taking risks?
>
> I don't mean to imply here that you are similar, but I have a client who, I think, tends to censor herself out of a similar desire to give the "right" responses. She is quite sensitive to being judged and evaluated in many different contexts. I think it would be a sign of real progress if she started to free associate more and censored less. Even when I try to suggest that maybe she experiences me as evaluating her or judging her, she tends to give the "right" response by saying, "but you are not supposed to do that." She cannot suggest to me that perhaps she experiences me as critical as well. She knows rationally (I hope) that I am not critical of her. If she feels it in her gut, she doesn't want to admit it, because that would not be rational. Does that make sense?<<< I am sensitive to being judged. I really think that my therapist defines my "goodness". If he thinks I'm good, then I am. If he thinks I'm bad, then I am. If I thought that he was being critical of me, then I would conclude that I was doing the wrong thing and the solution would be for me to do the right thing so he wouldn't be critical.
>
> Fallsfall, I bet you are a challenging (in a good way) and gratifying client to work with due to your research and interest in the process. Perhaps you could talk with your T about these issues? It may help to relieve some of your concerns about "right" and "wrong" responses. I tend to believe there are no right or wrong, there simply ARE responses.<<< We do talk about this. The need to be "good" and the fact (yes, fact) that my goodness is evaluated by him are deeply entrenched. Very deeply entrenched.
>
> Take care,
>
> gg
><<<Thank you so much Gardnergirl. My fears are becoming a little clearer. Perhaps that is the first step.
Posted by fallsfall on February 4, 2004, at 10:17:58
In reply to Re: Research, posted by alexandra_k on February 4, 2004, at 3:09:31
I try to let people know which parts of the diagnosis apply to me and which parts don't, as well. I hope that this will help to avoid them putting me in a BPD box and treating the box in a standard way. It also can help to start discussions about details of how I do act and feel (for instance, if my therapist disagrees with me that a particular symptom doesn't apply to me...). So I guess that I hope it will help communication.
Unfortunately, I can be very stubborn, and sometimes I read something and draw conclusions (that might not be correct) - and my therapist has a really hard time getting me to see any other viewpoints. I do really respect his intellegence, knowledge, and insight - so I try to listen to what he says. But sometimes that is easier than other times.
Good luck on your publication!!! I'm glad you could figure out a way to get more milage out of your research.
Posted by fallsfall on February 4, 2004, at 10:34:57
In reply to Re: Research » fallsfall, posted by Penny on February 4, 2004, at 8:35:22
> I, personally, don't believe you can ever know too much about a subject you are interested in. Because no matter how much you know, there will always be more to learn. But that's just my opinion.
<<< But it may be true that knowing some things can reduce your flexibility (or increase my stubbornness). Or send you off in useless directions. I just know that it makes me feel calmer to read, to know more. Probably calmer because I feel I have more control if I know more. But what GG told me is that I have to give UP control. So knowing more could be not helpful.
> Our view of others is usually much clearer than our view of ourselves. Because we are the only ones in our heads, and we have to add in our own emotions to the equation, which can skew things (though is sometimes helpful).
Hey, speak for yourself. I have perfect control over the few emotions that I have! 8^)
>
> Another thing is that we are usually too hard on ourselves.<<< Maybe because the results of our own lives matter so much to us than the results of other people's lives. If they screw up, it doesn't matter as much to us, as if we screw up.
>
> But, I must say, you are clearly a stronger person than I am, because I don't think I could deal with the 'blank slate' response from my therapist. And because it seems to me that you are working far harder in therapy than I ever have...<<< Who says I am "dealing" with the blank slate response. I'm going nuts here.
>
> And I'm learning so much from you, Falls. I always do.
>
> (((fallsfall)))
>
> P
<<< Thanks, Penny. Your posts help.
Posted by fallsfall on February 4, 2004, at 10:43:33
In reply to Suggestion from left field » fallsfall, posted by Racer on February 4, 2004, at 9:53:57
What a great idea. I can see how you can get a clearer understanding because you *don't* have the words.
I happen to have two Cocker Spaniels. They are really sweet. I took them to obedience school 2 1/2 years ago, but never did all the practice that I needed to do with them. So I know *how* to train them, but I haven't done it. I am quite depressed these days and they are getting bored because I just sit at the computer all day and don't take them for walks etc. I have an invisible fence, and when I first introduced it to them (2 1/2 years ago) they were terrified. One was afraid to go down the steps, he was so scared of the fence. I eventually stopped traumatizing them by not putting on their collars - they weren't going anywhere anyway. Well, over time they have become more adventuresome and I had to go retrieve one who was being social with a neighbor walking her dog - I had to go out in my bathrobe (20 degrees outside)... So I've been letting them in the back yard on long leashes. But now they are REALLY getting bored.
I could kill 2 birds with 1 stone if I introduced the fence again and worked on things like "come" and "stay".
See? Thanks! That is something I can DO.
Posted by pegasus on February 4, 2004, at 11:02:05
In reply to Research, posted by fallsfall on February 3, 2004, at 20:58:29
What a great thread! I'm also a researcher. I think a lot of my research into therapy came about for the reasons that you all have described so clearly: wanting to understand what was expected, what the heck he was trying to do, etc. GG, I appreciate your comments about how it might work better to let go of some of that wanting to be in control. Although, it's *hard* and I'm also really afraid of that.
For me the research also served the purpose of making me feel like I was still working on therapy, even when I wasn't in session. My T was never really big on giving homework, and I'd feel so disconnected from the process and from him in between sessions. So I kind of made up my own homework. When I was reading about therapy, I felt closer to my therapist, and more active about the whole thing. It gave me more to work with than the few pieces that would come from each session. In that sense, I think it was very very helpful.
-p
Posted by fallsfall on February 4, 2004, at 11:23:44
In reply to Re: Research, posted by pegasus on February 4, 2004, at 11:02:05
Research does help me feel closer between sessions.
But, I also have a problem overdoing it. I'm not working fulltime (I do have a 10 hour a week job at the local library). My fulltime task is therapy. If I understand people correctly, my fulltime task should be life, not therapy. But I feel like I don't have a life unless therapy works (and maybe until therapy works)... Sigh.
Posted by Racer on February 4, 2004, at 11:55:23
In reply to Re: Suggestion from left field » Racer, posted by fallsfall on February 4, 2004, at 10:43:33
Keep me updated, and I'll be your cheerleader.
When you get more ambitious, you might look into obedience trials. Even if you never actually show, watching practices can teach you a lot. For that matter, watching the obedience trials on TV (Animal Planet shows them sometimes) can help, too. Watch the interactions between dog and handler carefully, pay attention to where their attentions are focussed, keep your eyes open to what happens when they're not on course, but just interacting together in the background. Animal Planet has a lot of good shows about training, too, that can give you a good perspective on non-verbal communication. You know, the Good Dog U shows, training and behavior shows. Even some of the vet shows.
Good luck, and keep us posted. Maybe I'll get famous for UNventing (that is, inventing something that already exists) a new form of therapy, then I'll go on all the talk shows and tell everyone, "well, it was this chick called fallsfall on a bulletin board who really got me started on this..."
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2004, at 12:00:13
In reply to Re: Research, posted by pegasus on February 4, 2004, at 11:02:05
> When I was reading about therapy, I felt closer to my therapist, and more active about the whole thing. It gave me more to work with than the few pieces that would come from each session. In that sense, I think it was very very helpful.
>
> -pOooh, so true!!! I think that's one of the big (but largely unacknowledged) reasons I do it. Anything to stay connected to my secure base.
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2004, at 12:03:28
In reply to Rah rah sis boom bah! » fallsfall, posted by Racer on February 4, 2004, at 11:55:23
Obedience is a ton of fun, too. I've trained hmmm.... five or six dogs in obedience, but only got a title on one. I think I'm not very good at it. :) Or rather I think I get nervous at shows, the dog picks up on it, and acts up. But I have a lot of fun training them. With Harry, I never even tried to show him though I did the work up to the beginning of the Intermediate level. I was too afraid of him being hurt by another dog on the long sit and down.
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2004, at 12:13:56
In reply to Re: Research » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on February 4, 2004, at 9:21:15
> "So the other day, when talking about something the EMDR lady said, he said he wouldn't have used that terminology with a layperson. I was torn. On the one hand, I had been offended by the terminology. On the other - a layperson??!!!!!"
>
> That is funny. What a double edged sword.:-)
>
> Do you think that researching has helped at all in your progress?It has helped a ton. I'd have never gotten anywhere if I had relied just on my therapist. He hasn't experienced the things I experience, but when I read books from people who have, or when I read the occasional author like Linehan or Levenkron who seem to really "get it" even if they haven't experienced it, it helps me understand myself sooo much better. And understanding why I do the things I do helps me feel better, and may even help me change the behaviors. Some of my biggest breakthroughs came after reading "Skin Game" or "Cutting Levenkron" or Linehan or "The Myth of Sanity" where I really had an ah-hah experience. And sometimes I feel closer to my therapist after reading Yalom (and farther away after reading some insensitive jerk therapist).
> Do you know WHY you do it (other than it being a standard behavior for you - do you do it MORE for psychology than for other things?)
It helps the anxiety to have some idea of what is going on. Forging blindly ahead is not really an option for someone with an anxiety disorder. Getting the lay of the land is a necessity. I do it more for psychology just because I also genuinely enjoy the topic.
>
> My approval need is clearly an "issue". If he is mad at me, I'm bad and very distressed. If I can't tell what he thinks, I'm extremely anxious - I HAVE to know.
>
If he's angry with me I fear he'll abandon me, even if I know he won't. Of course, my therapist is transparent at least as far as what's going on between us.> Thanks for helping me feel less weird...
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2004, at 12:14:21
In reply to Re: Research, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2004, at 12:13:56
Posted by Karen_kay on February 4, 2004, at 16:36:38
In reply to Research, posted by fallsfall on February 3, 2004, at 20:58:29
I just had a chance to read your post and I must tell you.....
I will NOT answer Bubba's questions unless I know why he asks them. If I can't figure it out on my own (ie. self esteem booster, relationship problem solving, ect.) I will tell him, "What are you trying to accomplish by asking this question?" And he used to get frustrated. Now, he simply gives me a hint.
For example.... Once he asked me, "How could you be a better wife for me?" And I was stumped... lost in my own transference, crush, ect. I couldn't figure out if he was trying to build my self esteem or trying to aid in losing the transference. So I simply refused to answer the question, as I wasn't sure how he wanted me to answer (and that's the key. I WANT/ NEED to please him. We'll get to that in a second. Also I don't want to be manipulated.) So I said, "I'm not answering until you tell me where this question is heading, what you hope to accomplish with it." He said, "Hint. Self esteem booster." So, I told him about my house keeping abilities, ect...
So, are you doing this because you have a need to please????
Or, are you doing this because you fear not being in control?
*I think that the motivation behind your behavior is what's important. (Now, I haven't had a chance to read the others posts, so maybe this is old news. If so, reporter, scratch this from the record please) Ask yourself why is it so important that you know..
Are you afraid of being inferior?
Ask yourself some hard questions and bring them to your next session....
Posted by gardenergirl on February 4, 2004, at 17:44:32
In reply to Re: Research » fallsfall, posted by Karen_kay on February 4, 2004, at 16:36:38
Reading everyone's posts about research, I think I jumped the gun a bit with my response earlier. I was thinking of my own difficulty in giving up control, and I did not mean to suggest (or perhaps state outright?) that reading about psych. and/or therapy is bad for therapy. I think it is really helpful and creates a bit of "shorthand" when the client is knowledgeable, especially about their diagnosis.
I was mostly just reacting from my own experience. So is this Babble transference (or counter-transference)? ; )
Take care all!
gg
Posted by alexandra_k on February 4, 2004, at 19:27:38
In reply to Research, posted by fallsfall on February 3, 2004, at 20:58:29
Hmm. Maybe I (for one) do have a problem with giving up control. I want to know why they are doing what they are doing and asking what they are asking.. not because I want to know what the 'right thing' to say is, but because I don't know where it is headed and I want us to be on the same wavelength as much as possible. I want to understand the question properly so I can give a coherent and relevant answer (like I am being graded on my attempt).
When I was doing DBT I was told off a lot about being in 'rational mind' all the time - at which point I would launch into a criticism as to the utility of lying to patients about hypothesised 'parts of ones brain' that there is no empirical basis for. (take it as a metaphor alex, sheesh...). I do have a tendency to be over analytic and question and switch into critique mode which I guess I use as a defence.
It is hard for me to give up being analytic and just trust. I know that there is probably a middle ground here... humour tends to help. I am learning to laugh at myself.
Posted by fallsfall on February 4, 2004, at 21:07:18
In reply to Re: Research, posted by gardenergirl on February 4, 2004, at 17:44:32
Actually, I thought that you were right on.
Control is a big issue for me, too.
I think you are right about needing to give up control. I just honestly don't know how to do that.
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