![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by naiad on December 30, 2003, at 9:41:57
In reply to Re: I'm lost » DaisyM, posted by fallsfall on December 30, 2003, at 8:36:15
Dependency has its plusses and minuses. One of the minuses is that it reinforces my passive tendencies. Once I told my T that when he says "we need to stop now" sometimes I feel like responding "I don't think so!" Just expressing the desire for some bit of control somehow made me feel less dependent. Don't know if this makes sense to you, but it worked for me.
I agree with fallsfall about journaling. I usually need to wait for a day or so after a session before the feelings and thoughts can merge into a coherent reflection about the session. But, boy do I ever worry about my journals being read by someone else. I guard them carefully!
For me, the plus side of dependency is that I am learning to trust my T. If I thought I could do this on my own (being independent) I would be exactly where I have been for most of my life. I need to learn to listen to myself and feel compassion for myself but am convinced that I need someone to help me. For now, I am dependent on him.
Take care
Posted by Rigby on December 30, 2003, at 10:09:48
In reply to I'm lost, posted by DaisyM on December 29, 2003, at 22:35:38
Hi Daisy,
I used to feel very, very dependent upon my therapist. The only thing that seemed to feel worse than the dependency was the anger towards her (and her whole profession) for encouraging it.
To this day I still question if it's necessarily such a great thing for the client to become so dependent. I can't see any downside for the therapist: heck, they get a steady paying client who they can justify is getting better by "opening up" but we, if we don't feel better get *nothing* but a dependency upon someone who will not and can not be anything to us outside of this room that we rent for X number of dollars an hour.
In terms of feeling less dependent, that happened with me--I'm not sure how but it was a painful journey. I just felt awful for about a year and a half, tried to quit a number of times and then, well, just eventually felt okay sort of making my peace with this practioner in the office that helps me. Yeah, she cares about me I'm sure but I think there's boundaries there. I finally realized that I don't know her, truly do not know her enough to know whether or not I care about her or would even like her outside her office--I simply do not know how she conducts her life or what she's like so I truly do not know.
I do think the process of having a skilled listener is helpful--they can tease out patterns, analyze dreams and actions you take--it can be helpful. But the whole dependency/transference thing which I feel is something I no longer am in at the moment, well, I wonder about that. Maybe it's because my therapist really did cross boundaries that I wonder about the helpfulness of getting that intense with the therapist.
I suppose being aware of your discomfort with this dependency might be a good thing--a good issue to work through; chances are if you're uncomfortable with it you'll work through it--consciously or not you're brain and heart just won't want to stay there.
> I truly don't get this dependency thing. I don't want to need my Therapist but when we have really intense sessions (like today) I just don't want to talk to anyone else about the after-effects. I think I need therapy to process therapy! But, I know this isn't healthy either. I keep thinking I should figure this out better.
>
> To make matters worse, he's gone now until next Monday - but available by phone. I feel sort of abandoned, I can't help it, even though I *rationally* know it is a Holiday weekend. :(
>
> I don't know whether I feel worse about the content of today's session or about the fact that he's gone.
>
> I need suggestions, survival stories, and chocolate. In any order.
> -D
Posted by pegasus on December 30, 2003, at 13:00:56
In reply to Re: I'm lost, posted by Rigby on December 30, 2003, at 10:09:48
> I used to feel very, very dependent upon my therapist. The only thing that seemed to feel worse than the dependency was the anger towards her (and her whole profession) for encouraging it.
>
Boy can I relate. I think because of this dependency, therapy has a definite cruel streak to it. I tried explaining this to my therapist, and it always comes back to me having some issue with being close. Couldn't it just be that the dependency that therapy necessarily sets up is an unavoidable negative side effect. It sounds like most of you struggle with this also. How could it come down to our individual issues like my therapist tries to frame it?> To this day I still question if it's necessarily such a great thing for the client to become so dependent. I can't see any downside for the therapist: heck, they get a steady paying client who they can justify is getting better by "opening up" but we, if we don't feel better get *nothing* but a dependency upon someone who will not and can not be anything to us outside of this room that we rent for X number of dollars an hour. >
Oh, man, I *know*. You said it just right. That's how I feel a lot of the time. I'm going to print this post and show it to my new therapist, and maybe we'll be able to deal with it in a more up front way than I did with my last T.
Also, I am so encouraged by hearing that you eventually got to a place that felt less dependent. I sometimes think that's my main goal in therapy. I was always hoping that eventually the dependency would abate, and then I'd be willing to think about termination on my own (that word is another pet peeve of mine - it's what you say when you fire someone). Too bad my stupid T decided to move away right in the middle of everything.
- p
Posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 14:31:46
In reply to Re: I'm lost, posted by naiad on December 30, 2003, at 9:41:57
<<<<But, boy do I ever worry about my journals being read by someone else. I guard them carefully!
>>>I have an electronic journal on my computer so I have it locked with a password. I type so much faster than I write. sometimes I print pages to take with me but these I guard...
<<<<For me, the plus side of dependency is that I am learning to trust my T. If I thought I could do this on my own (being independent) I would be exactly where I have been for most of my life. I need to learn to listen to myself and feel compassion for myself but am convinced that I need someone to help me. For now, I am dependent on him.
This is me exactly. It is, in fact, a therapy goal. We went over this yesterday, again, about being in touch with my needs and then "allowing" them. This includes needing him and being OK with that.
*sigh* It helps to know I'm not alone. I need more chocolate.
Posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 14:37:19
In reply to Re: I'm lost, posted by Rigby on December 30, 2003, at 10:09:48
<<<I suppose being aware of your discomfort with this dependency might be a good thing--a good issue to work through; chances are if you're uncomfortable with it you'll work through it--consciously or not you're brain and heart just won't want to stay there.
It is one of the MAIN issues we are working on. But trust/dependency is pretty hard for me. I know there is a middle ground, sometimes I think I'm there, then things get so intense and personal and scary...I'm back to needing to check to make sure he is OK and handling all of this and not bailing on me. That is the "need" for me.
I'm glad you found the middle ground. Do you have a map?
Posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 14:45:50
In reply to Re: I'm lost » DaisyM, posted by Poet on December 30, 2003, at 9:17:19
Thanks for the feedback and ideas. I'll try them. I'm hiding in my office with my Rod Stewart American Songbook tape getting absolutely nothing done. I've written and written. I feel like a soap opera.
The irony of some of this is that my journal entry for Saturday wondered if I was ready to cut back to once a week again...then life got up-ended. Well, at least that question is answered for now.
I'm really, really, really ready to get off this emotional roller-coaster. I don't know if it is my life or therapy. Or both. And I don't know what to do about it.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 30, 2003, at 15:23:38
In reply to Re: I'm lost: Fallsfall, Karen, Poet, posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 14:45:50
Daisy,
Hi Sweetie! I know that at times things seems overwhelming, almost unbearable. But in regards to therapy, look at what you have accomplished. Where were you before you started? And look at your progress now. Your therapist told you before that sometimes you move forward and sometimes you move slightly back. It takes time. When you have a rough session, you leave feeling at odds. You're hurt, distraught and vulnerable. It happens to all of us. Your therapist knew this, I suspect that's why he told you to call him if you need to.
Even though the process hurts, don't give up on it. Think not only of the good you'll be doing for yourself, but also for your family. You're worth it. Hang in there hun!
Posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 17:24:50
In reply to I'm lost, posted by DaisyM on December 29, 2003, at 22:35:38
Ok, so I'm sitting here trying to feel better about all of this and my Therapist calls..."just checking in." I was so surprised. We talked about yesterday (see I DO need therapy for therapy) and possible strategies for the rest of this week. He made it clear that he didn't think I "needed" him to make it through...just that he knew what he had encouraged me to do was hard and he wanted to make sure I was OK, whether I had decided to follow through or not.
So, it is still a long way until Monday but I feel better. And lucky to have the support. Both from here and from him.
Thanks.
Posted by Dinah on December 30, 2003, at 19:47:44
In reply to Now I'm a little less lost, posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 17:24:50
Wow. I'm impressed. I'm not sure that my therapist has ever initiated a phone call. Even when I left his office a quivering wreck.
I'm glad he was able to help you. Maybe he was trying to show you how very ok it was to call him if you need him. Do you think that you will feel freer to call him now that he initiated a call to you?
Posted by fallsfall on December 30, 2003, at 19:52:41
In reply to Now I'm a little less lost, posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 17:24:50
I'm so glad that he called you.
Please feel that you can call him if you need him. Clearly he knows that you are in a rough place, and equally clearly, he wants to be there to help. Don't be a martyr - we love you *because* you are human.
Posted by Poet on December 30, 2003, at 19:57:22
In reply to Now I'm a little less lost, posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 17:24:50
Daisy
Definitely some psychic sending and receiving of messages between the two of you. If you feel lost again, try to remember that he called to check in and that he'll be there for you on Monday. He really seems to care about you, which is fantastic.
Poet
Posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 21:58:00
In reply to Re: Now I'm a little less lost » DaisyM, posted by Poet on December 30, 2003, at 19:57:22
Thanks for the really nice messages and support. I'll keep reading them about calling if I need to. I wish he had email, I'm so much better at writing down what I want to say. He says that is why he doesn't have it...he wants the personal connection.
Dinah -- I'm impressed that he called too...you don't think he reads Babble, do you? Nah...
Falls -- being allowed to be *human* is new for me so you have no idea how touched I am by that statement and I promise, no martyr's here.
Poet -- Psychic could be good, right? Hopefully not too intrusive though. It is weird to think someone might be worried about me, that is typically my role to play.
Now I have to deal with the content of the session, which will require courage on my part. At least I know I have support.
Thanks all!
-D
Posted by Kalamatianos on December 31, 2003, at 0:40:24
In reply to Re: I'm lost ... but not so far away... » Kalamatianos, posted by Elle2021 on December 30, 2003, at 5:32:59
Please accept that you could have gone several different ways, and the way you did is that you accept your T as earning their position of authority over you. Tells me you are responsible for your troubles and are not worried about your safety even though you are concerned about your progress. The notion of being "enough" seems to baffle you. I guess I'm asking something toooo abstract. There will be internal conflictedness until you are certain about "enough".
OBTW, its good to see you are back...
Posted by Kalamatianos on December 31, 2003, at 1:30:05
In reply to Re: I'm lost ... but not so far away... » Kalamatianos, posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 1:17:31
Note: I'm asking you to make a picture in which you act out the fantasy of ordering them around. I do this anytime I am confused about what might happen to me. I get to sorta see the future. You telling me what you see is safe; ordering your T around *for-real* ain't gonna work, ya' know.
Also, not seeing yourself as "enough" can leave you internally conflicted in most situations. This is not bad nor good; just is. Trust me that I was so glad to first hear someone speak about "enough" and then wake up one day 10 years later and say, "A-hah! I am 'enough', at least for today". It's a great feeling! I've never looked back!
"Selfish" as a label, when you are willing to go out of your way to help, is counter-intuitive. The implication is that you are still obligated to the attitudes and beliefs of someone else instead of your own. I only hear my own voice in my mind now, since I suspended all opinions long enough to sort out which ones are mine and which ones belong to someone else. They were the sources of those many voices in my head.
People just assume that we are obligated for life, except, then I wouldn't have my own life. I would be living for who ever was demanding that I stay obligated.
Note: Obligations are always one-way. My plans, goals, and personal contracts, are all two-way. They also allow for optional results.
Obligations are someone telling me how they want the results from me, with no wishy-washy optional outcomes. Life doesn't work that way. Life might throw me a curve before the end of a project, so I need options available in order to keep making progress. I couldn't feel good about asserting my needs until I felt "enough".
Mark my words: if you detect someone is a control freak, they are internally conflicted and have strong feelings of not being "enough". They substitute loudness for cooperation; they seem angry but are usually only loud. This translates into authority by those held obligated to them. Know anybody like this?
Posted by fallsfall on December 31, 2003, at 8:24:15
In reply to Thanks -you guys are the best!, posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 21:58:00
Daisy,
I have been known to write something out, change it until I like it and then pick up the phone and read it over the phone...
Wishing you peace.
Posted by DaisyM on December 31, 2003, at 12:30:31
In reply to Re: I'm lost ... but not so far away... » DaisyM, posted by Kalamatianos on December 31, 2003, at 1:30:05
Sometimes being a control freak is creating a sense of safety for yourself, whether you realize this or not.
I think part of what I am working on is seperating responsibilities from obligations. I am so good at being responsible to everyone but myself. As in, "take care of yourself" to me *feels* like something I don't know how to do and will fail at. This is most likely because I've let *me* get lost...who I am and what I really want, because I am so responsible. I know that is a muddled explanations and until I know who I am how will I know when I am enough??
Is color a factor in all of this or in your question? What does this mean?
Posted by DaisyM on December 31, 2003, at 20:06:18
In reply to Re: Thanks -you guys are the best! » DaisyM, posted by fallsfall on December 31, 2003, at 8:24:15
That is a great idea, don't know why I had the two so completely disconnected.
My Therapist suggested the same thing you did for coping, write journal entries like I'm talking/writing directly to him...it might even be more freeing. I asked him what happens when he then "forgets" about something that I *thought* I told him...but only actually wrote down. He said he covers well, not to worry, and besides, people get mad at him all the time for stuff he did in their dreams so he is use to this kind of disconnect. LOL
My "homework" is really hard. I need to have a conversation with someone about how their plans are going to affect me -- and why I'm so freaked out about the changes that are coming. I don't want to take the wind out of their sail...so I've just been supportive and haven't said much about my concerns. I think my Therapist is going to kill me soon though if I don't speak up -- on Monday he said I needed to recognize that I was being retraumatized again, and he was going to "make" me write 1,000 times: My needs count too. Then he backs off and acknowledges how hard this is for me.
*sigh* *SIGH* I think I'll practice what I need to say by writing it down. Then I'm gonna color.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 31, 2003, at 20:26:16
In reply to Re: Thanks -you guys are the best! » fallsfall, posted by DaisyM on December 31, 2003, at 20:06:18
Daisy,
I'm glad he called you! That's so great. How did that make you feel? Didn't it make you feel wonderful to know that when you were feeling very bad, he picked up the phone just to "check in?" It seems you have a wonderful therapist. And it seems he has an even more wonderful client!I think it will help you to write down your conversations and feelings in a journal. But I think it may help even more to write down your needs and wants as well. I think that you've put yourself on hold much too long. You don't have to vocalize what you'd like. Just write it down. The things you'd never actually say out loud. Just to get it out. Your needs are very important.
It sounds like you're feeling much better. I'm happy to hear it. It makes me sad when you're sad :( I hope you have a nice New Year's Eve and a very happy New Year!!!
Karen
Posted by fallsfall on December 31, 2003, at 21:24:36
In reply to Re: Thanks -you guys are the best! » fallsfall, posted by DaisyM on December 31, 2003, at 20:06:18
I have been coloring tonight with my good crayons (they smell wonderful). I have a big coloring book with pictures of teddy bears doing fun things (the one I am doing now has them sledding down a hill).
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 14:47:09
In reply to Re: Thanks -you guys are the best! » fallsfall, posted by DaisyM on December 31, 2003, at 20:06:18
I usually journal either by posts on this board or by letters to my therapist. I guess I feel more comfortable in a conversational format than a more inner directed one.
And I often get mad at my therapist (and other people) for what he did in my dreams! And I get mad at him for what other people's therapsits do! I always know and introduce it that way, saying I know it's silly, but it sometimes opens up really interesting topics.
Posted by Kalamatianos on January 2, 2004, at 0:40:30
In reply to Re: I'm lost ... but not so far away... » Kalamatianos, posted by DaisyM on December 31, 2003, at 12:30:31
Dear DaisyM,
Thank yourself for hanging in there. I hear a for-real breakthrough.>>>Sometimes being a control freak is creating a sense of safety for yourself, whether you realize this or not.
<<<That's it! A control freak is seeking stable security in the midst of (perceived) chaos. The illusion is an expectation of safety. They are the problem instead of a healthy part of the solution. They blame all the chaos on someone else, never taking responsibility for the problems they might be causing.
Anyone you know under 15 who acts this way is not responsible for their poor performance. Those over 15 who are assumed responsible and still act as controlling manipulators, are not acting responsibly and cause terrible outcomes for all they come in contact with. They are holding onto behavior as grown-ups that worked when they were children and life was simple, but now is harmful to themselves and others, so doesn't work for them as grown-ups. I'm not implying that controlling children are OK. I'm pointing out that controlling children that hold on to their destructive behavior, are very messy grown-ups.
Narcissism is the next level worse and very difficult to overcome in one lifetime. Sociopath seems to be the worst I have encountered. (e.g.) G. Gordon Liddy who single-handedly took down the Nixon administration by hatching and implementing the Watergate Hotel break-in scheme causing Richard Nixon's total ruin. Nixon and all his Cabinet and staff became pawns; expendable.
>>>I think part of what I am working on is separating responsibilities from obligations.
<<<You are connecting some very important dots. Responsibility for adults serves to replace the childhood notions of obligation. If it were legal, I'd give you a great big hug right now! You're starting to picture what I had to do to get where I'm at. This is so exciting for me to see this happening for you.
>>>I've let *me* get lost...who I am and what I really want, because I am so responsible.
<<<Can I get your permission to tweak this idea ever so slightly? Change the last word to "OBLIGATED". Now, read it again, please.
Next, please never lose sight of the detail that as an adult, "what you do or think" is never "who you are". You (and no one else either) can take away from you "who you are". Habits, both good and bad, are examples of "what you do".
(mucho importante)=> If you change your habits, you don't change "WHO YOU ARE"!! (please repeat that 10 times....lol)
>>>...color...
<<<NLP has developed some data, which combined with the newest stuff from the neuro science folks, implies black and white memories are frozen-in-time childhood experiences. There is a huge and fuzzy boundary, and then clear bright color implies memories annotated and accepted into the brain as adults.
David Peck and "The Peck Protocol" attempted to encourage the updating of those black and white memories. I have yet to hear of an adult reporting a black and white memory not being the source of unresolved and troubling childhood trauma.
David's premise was simply that these memories are black and white, and thus distorted. Do you accept that since you see in color, that if you have any memory that you retain as black and white, your retained images can be assumed to be distortions?
Since adults store visual images as pictures for quick recall, David would have the subject report how that black and white picture felt. Next, he would ask them to pull up a known image that evoked happy feelings and notice that this image was in color. He would then have the subject hold on to those happy feelings and go back and look at the picture of the trauma, and see if the picture didn't start to have some color in it.
9 out of 10 got it the first time. They started seeing color in the image and continued to report that the ill feelings surrounding the original image were melting away, as the black and white image got more color.
This may sound like only some cheap parlor game, but I have witnessed molestation victims turn the corner for the very first time and start to accept themselves for who they are today. They let go of the trauma and start living a life as an adult, no longer a grown-up with a damaged childhood. Once the picture starts getting color, they report no longer seeing a purpose in reliving the hurt and the misery.
It's awesome (and humbling) for me, really.
Please hang in there. It took me 15 years to iron out my kinks. Now I see miracles happen in months instead of years. Take note when I say there is more to all this than first meets the eye.
Posted by DaisyM on January 2, 2004, at 17:44:14
In reply to Thank yourself for hanging in there(long) » DaisyM, posted by Kalamatianos on January 2, 2004, at 0:40:30
I appreciate the encouragement and thanks for the color explanations. I'll have to think about that because my memories are clearly in color, like watching a movie but are still, at this point, mostly devoid of feeling.
As far as responsibilities and obligations, those are hard to seperate, aren't they? I get what you are saying about who you are, but what if you have been so "obligated" so long that you really "don't" know who you are? Without the obligations, I mean. And how do you recognize when readily accepted responsibilities begin turned into obligations?
I've been thinking about your concept of "enough" a lot the past few days. I'm beginning to hypothesize that there is a flip side to "not enough." I think you can be "too much" which can eventually become overwhelming. And once overwhelmed, there is a domino effect that results in complete collapse of your inner vision of yourself. That is when the "chuck it all and run" impulses come out. The other part of being "too much" is that you rely solely on yourself for inner emotional support...you don't "need" anyone else, nor will you allow anyone truly in.
You are content to be (emotionally) on this deserted island because you feel safe and you are surviving. Then, reserves go low or you get too many hits at the same time and the island alone in the middle of the storm is flooded and sinking. I think this is true for those of us who NEVER had self-esteem problems, who were confident in their abilities and who managed a fair amount of *success* however you wish to define that.
To have your vision of yourself dismantled propels you into crisis -- midlife or otherwise-- and you must then work your way back. Only back from an island is difficult, if not impossible. Especially if the storm is still raging.
So task #1 for me is to tie myself to a coconut tree so *I* don't get blown away in this storm I call my life and then figure out how to get off the island and navigate where I want to go. My Therapist has supplied the rope and is currently holding the umbrella, compass and the map. I want him to go get a helicopter!
Posted by Kalamatianos on January 3, 2004, at 12:41:25
In reply to Re: Thank yourself for hanging in there(long) » Kalamatianos, posted by DaisyM on January 2, 2004, at 17:44:14
<<<"devoid of feeling"
>>>...is appropriate for retrospectives. The hypothesis is that if a memory is evocative, it probably contains unresolved conflict. "The Objective View" teaches us to take in information and process it before attaching a value to the memory of the perception. Value in this case is a specific emotion; a feeling. Since you can't get excited about the memories, they just are. (objectively, hypothetically).
<<<...responsibilities turn into obligations
>>>Obligations come first. All throughout our childhoods, we remain obligated to our parents and guardians. This serves to keep us alive. Its also easier for parents to have the one-way-street nature of obligation as a management tool for their parenting job. With obligation comes "The Tyranny of the Shoulds" and don'ts, approval instead of true love, expectations instead of plans and goals, and avoidance of the new and the unknown.
All of this works fine into adolescence when parents don't know the next step; emancipation. By emancipating, I don't mean emotional severance and abandonment. Robert Subby from Minnesota wrote about this in the 80's. It means instead, a welcoming ritual of the former-child into adulthood. American aboriginals would send the 14 year old out into the wilderness with a collection of survival tools and instructions to return about a year with the spring thaw. If he made it, he was declared a "Brave" and no longer a youngster in the tribe.
So the ancients got it right, and we seem to have lost our way in the last 50 years. Perhaps the desperation of the great depression and the young men being absent during WWII lulled a generation into forgetting this natural process and its purpose.
DaisyM, if you were not instructed by your parents that adulthood is a whole different thing than childhood, adulthood can be the notion of being overwhelmed. e.g.: expectations are one-way like obligations. As a child, there was only one outcome expected for a promised event. I had the expectation that the event would happen because the parents I was obligated to said it was going to happen. This worked fine for me as a child, but gets in my way as an adult. Anytime I get excited by an expectation, my complicated adult life seems to change things on me, and I end up disappointed and despondent and feel a failure.
In my business life I have plans goals and personal (handshake) contracts. If the initial vision vaporizes, I always have optional paths toward optional results. So why can't I morph that over into my private life? I found the answer in 1988. I found that I could do this once I declared myself no longer a child obligated to my family of origin. I was 41 and declaring myself belatedly emancipated in front 15 friends and acquaintances, thanks largely to Robert Subby's book.
Thank god I wasn't required to be responsible, in the adult sense, as a child. I already had problems with self respect and self esteem. Boy, how close do I feel I was to being a casualty of my own childhood!!!
Posted by DaisyM on January 3, 2004, at 17:21:36
In reply to Devoid of feeling » DaisyM, posted by Kalamatianos on January 3, 2004, at 12:41:25
<<<if you were not instructed by your parents that adulthood is a whole different thing than childhood, adulthood can be the notion of being overwhelmed. e.g.: expectations are one-way like obligations.
In my life, adulthood WAS my childhood. By Age 11, I was taking care of the entire household, cooking, shopping, cleaning and laundry and I watched my baby sister after school. The only thing I didn't do was pay the bills. I did earn money babysitting for neighbors. I was the most responsible "kid" you ever met. And I, of course, had really high grades. My 2 brothers did the yard work. And I didn't complain, because we all "had responsibilities."
So now, everything feels like my responsibility. I will keep thinking about the difference between obligations and true responsibilities. As in, who are you responsible to and for? Your kids? You spouse? Your employees? Your self?
Food for thought,for sure.
Posted by Dinah on January 3, 2004, at 18:11:44
In reply to Re: Devoid of feeling » Kalamatianos, posted by DaisyM on January 3, 2004, at 17:21:36
Hi Daisy,
Sounds like your childhood was a lot like mine. I went the other direction though, and became more irresponsible with age. I think I've even forgotten all the things I used to be really good at cooking. :)
This is the end of the thread.
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