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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 33. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DaisyM on December 29, 2003, at 22:35:38
I truly don't get this dependency thing. I don't want to need my Therapist but when we have really intense sessions (like today) I just don't want to talk to anyone else about the after-effects. I think I need therapy to process therapy! But, I know this isn't healthy either. I keep thinking I should figure this out better.
To make matters worse, he's gone now until next Monday - but available by phone. I feel sort of abandoned, I can't help it, even though I *rationally* know it is a Holiday weekend. :(
I don't know whether I feel worse about the content of today's session or about the fact that he's gone.
I need suggestions, survival stories, and chocolate. In any order.
-D
Posted by Kalamatianos on December 30, 2003, at 0:18:38
In reply to I'm lost, posted by DaisyM on December 29, 2003, at 22:35:38
Boy, can I relate! ...to the chocolate part...lol
The operant word is *need*. I've been heard saying, "I neeeeeeed Chocolate!" (followed by heavy panting and a frantic look on my face).Sounds like you feel that *obligation to your "primary dependency object" syndrome*... Picture how your T would look if you were *enough* instead of *needy*.
Also, could you report back another picture? Picture yourself in a room with your T, ordering them around like a butler or maid.
Does this picture evoke anger or fright?
Now, is that picture in color or black and white? How you see this picture will indicate the level of obligation. [NLP]
Posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 1:17:31
In reply to Re: I'm lost ... but not so far away... » DaisyM, posted by Kalamatianos on December 30, 2003, at 0:18:38
Ok -- picture actual invokes a smile...made me laugh as he would probably ask me why I "needed" to order him around! :) Definately in color.
However, not that I've ever had a maid or a butler but I see myself as one of those people who would consistently emphasize equality and always *ask* politely for what I wanted. That is if I didn't insist on getting it myself. And then pay them anyway. LOL.
I don't know how to see myself as "enough" for my Therapist especially since he spent 1/2 of the session today trying to convince me that "my needs count too" and I needed to not see them as "selfish" (my term) but as healthy. He wants me to speak up about something and not just make the best of it. Which I would do easily if it was about anything other than me. *sigh*
Can I ask the butler to go get mochas? I think it is going to be a long night.
Posted by Elle2021 on December 30, 2003, at 5:32:59
In reply to Re: I'm lost ... but not so far away... » DaisyM, posted by Kalamatianos on December 30, 2003, at 0:18:38
> Sounds like you feel that *obligation to your "primary dependency object" syndrome*... Picture how your T would look if you were *enough* instead of *needy*.If I could feel like enough, instead of needy, that would be wonderful.
>
> Also, could you report back another picture? Picture yourself in a room with your T, ordering them around like a butler or maid.
> Does this picture evoke anger or fright?Evokes giggles in me! I can just see myself, "Dr., get up right now and clear your schedule until you know what my schedule looks like, so you can book appointments around me."
> Now, is that picture in color or black and white? How you see this picture will indicate the level of obligation. [NLP]It's in color. What does it mean when it's in color?
Elle
>
>
Posted by fallsfall on December 30, 2003, at 8:36:15
In reply to I'm lost, posted by DaisyM on December 29, 2003, at 22:35:38
I can't even see me in a room with him able to order him around. I couldn't do the ordering. I'm not sure that he couldn't do the obeying.
See, Daisy? I'm worse off than you...
I often can't talk to anyone after a session for some number of hours (4, 6, 8). I need to let the session rumble around in my brain so I can finish processing it. I do, however, often try to summarize the session (sometimes on Babble, sometimes privately to friends, sometimes in journalling) - I think that helps it to solidify for me.
The day after a session is the day that I will need him most. I seem able to calm down from there.
Try journalling TO him (like a letter, but more personal). This will let you get your feelings and ideas out. Saying "I want to see *you*" or "I know that *you* want me to..." always helped me to feel more connected. This also has helped me get past certain ideas (they are now on paper, so I don't have to keep them in my head). You can also read the journalling before your next session so you won't forget anything.
It is always hard to balance my need and his right to have a vacation. I firmly believe in his right to have time off, so I try to understand that he has needs too - and this (one) time his needs come before mine. Being "able" to call him has plusses and minuses - I would never want to call him on vacation, being able to gives me temptation that I have to keep fighting off - but knowing that he was willing to talk to me felt warm and fuzzy.
I certainly am no one to tell you how to reduce dependency... But my current therapist is better than my last one at not being so seductive (in a dependency way) than my last one. He is a little removed, which helps me not fall headfirst down the dependency hole. But his blank slate has cracked enough so that I know that he truly cares - it is almost like he hides his caring, but it bleeds through often enough for me to feel safe and held. So far, this seems to work for me. (My other option for a therapist was so warm and enveloping. It would have been lovely to wallow in her caring, but I think I would have disappeared into dependency forever.)
Chocolate (QUALITY chocolate), ice cream, swings, color with crayons, lots of little kid things (maybe when I'm doing little kid things feeling dependent doesn't feel so wrong?). Journal, post, mark the days off on the calendar, calculate the hours.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 30, 2003, at 9:15:20
In reply to I'm lost, posted by DaisyM on December 29, 2003, at 22:35:38
> I truly don't get this dependency thing.
<<<Me neither!!! What do they want??
I don't want to need my Therapist but when we have really intense sessions (like today) I just don't want to talk to anyone else about the after-effects.
<<<I think I am similar to you. I don't want to need my therapist. But, that's why I'm not getting as much done as I'd like. And that's why I find him less than supportive. And that's why I don't open up like he'd like me to. I should tell him this, but he is the therapist and he should pickup on this if he is as good as he thinks he is, RIGHT? And he knows that I have a habit of becoming needy (who, me??) and maybe that's why he doesn't return my phone calls?? Or maybe he's lazy, or worthless? Or doesn't check his messages? Or hates me? Or doesn't think I'm important? Damn it, I feel like he's my stupid boyfriend, only I could care less if my boyfriend doesn't call back.
I think I need therapy to process therapy! But, I know this isn't healthy either. I keep thinking I should figure this out better.<<<Personally, I think I tend to annoy my therapist because I overanalyze our sessions. And I only try to figure out the stupid things we talk about. I'll go into great detail about "the long pause", or the "funny look you gave me" when I said I prefer cashews to pistashios and I can talk about this type of analysis for another whole session. Maybe this is why he doesn't call me back. In fact, I don't think I'd call me back either. While I tend to have some fun sessions and he does get to see the real me (he actually said I seem to be the type of person he'd hang out with in "real life" [is that a compliment?]) I'm not getting anywhere in therapy. But, then again, I am the Queen of Denial and Distraction :)
<<<Try journaling what your session was aobut and your feelings around that session. Then have fun conversations like these in your mind. The kind that most people don't actually have with their therapists. Try not to think aoubt things too much when he's not readily available to you.
>
> To make matters worse, he's gone now until next Monday - but available by phone. I feel sort of abandoned, I can't help it, even though I *rationally* know it is a Holiday weekend. :(
<<<Try to hold on to him by having conversations with himin our head. And feel free to call in an emergency.
> I don't know whether I feel worse about the content of today's session or about the fact that he's gone.I'd say both equally.
> I need suggestions, survival stories, and chocolate. In any order.
<<<I use pacifiers still and I still suck my thumb. It works. I look silly, but it helps. It started whem my dentist jumped my butt because my back teeth were wore down from grinding them so much. And you can only smoke so much and chew so much gum, sugarless, of course.
Posted by Poet on December 30, 2003, at 9:17:19
In reply to I'm lost, posted by DaisyM on December 29, 2003, at 22:35:38
Hi Daisy,
Godiva chocolate, lots of it.
I think writing down what you're feeling is a good idea. I've wrote long letters and then as Dear Abby suggests destroyed them. I'm not courageous enough to let my therapist read them.
Do you have any pets? Then you can order your therapist to clean up after them. I can see mine picking cat hair off my sweaters. :-)
Poet
Posted by Karen_kay on December 30, 2003, at 9:31:41
In reply to Re: I'm lost » DaisyM, posted by Poet on December 30, 2003, at 9:17:19
I can see mine picking cat hair off my sweaters. :-)
>
> Poet<<<<Just a note on this, I was wearing black slacks at a session and I have a husky who sheds like he is going bald. Well, he had just gone for a ride in the car so his hair was everywhere! Well, when I got to the appointment, I didn't realize his hair was all over me and I didn't have a lint brush in my car :( (He's red and white so his hair was quite noticable and I kept petting my legs trying to remove it) I think my therapist either felt bad for me or became so annoyed that he reached into his drawer and handed me a lint brush. That was kinda sweet anyway. But, it still doesn't make up for him NOT RETURNING MY PHONE CALLS!!
Posted by naiad on December 30, 2003, at 9:41:57
In reply to Re: I'm lost » DaisyM, posted by fallsfall on December 30, 2003, at 8:36:15
Dependency has its plusses and minuses. One of the minuses is that it reinforces my passive tendencies. Once I told my T that when he says "we need to stop now" sometimes I feel like responding "I don't think so!" Just expressing the desire for some bit of control somehow made me feel less dependent. Don't know if this makes sense to you, but it worked for me.
I agree with fallsfall about journaling. I usually need to wait for a day or so after a session before the feelings and thoughts can merge into a coherent reflection about the session. But, boy do I ever worry about my journals being read by someone else. I guard them carefully!
For me, the plus side of dependency is that I am learning to trust my T. If I thought I could do this on my own (being independent) I would be exactly where I have been for most of my life. I need to learn to listen to myself and feel compassion for myself but am convinced that I need someone to help me. For now, I am dependent on him.
Take care
Posted by Rigby on December 30, 2003, at 10:09:48
In reply to I'm lost, posted by DaisyM on December 29, 2003, at 22:35:38
Hi Daisy,
I used to feel very, very dependent upon my therapist. The only thing that seemed to feel worse than the dependency was the anger towards her (and her whole profession) for encouraging it.
To this day I still question if it's necessarily such a great thing for the client to become so dependent. I can't see any downside for the therapist: heck, they get a steady paying client who they can justify is getting better by "opening up" but we, if we don't feel better get *nothing* but a dependency upon someone who will not and can not be anything to us outside of this room that we rent for X number of dollars an hour.
In terms of feeling less dependent, that happened with me--I'm not sure how but it was a painful journey. I just felt awful for about a year and a half, tried to quit a number of times and then, well, just eventually felt okay sort of making my peace with this practioner in the office that helps me. Yeah, she cares about me I'm sure but I think there's boundaries there. I finally realized that I don't know her, truly do not know her enough to know whether or not I care about her or would even like her outside her office--I simply do not know how she conducts her life or what she's like so I truly do not know.
I do think the process of having a skilled listener is helpful--they can tease out patterns, analyze dreams and actions you take--it can be helpful. But the whole dependency/transference thing which I feel is something I no longer am in at the moment, well, I wonder about that. Maybe it's because my therapist really did cross boundaries that I wonder about the helpfulness of getting that intense with the therapist.
I suppose being aware of your discomfort with this dependency might be a good thing--a good issue to work through; chances are if you're uncomfortable with it you'll work through it--consciously or not you're brain and heart just won't want to stay there.
> I truly don't get this dependency thing. I don't want to need my Therapist but when we have really intense sessions (like today) I just don't want to talk to anyone else about the after-effects. I think I need therapy to process therapy! But, I know this isn't healthy either. I keep thinking I should figure this out better.
>
> To make matters worse, he's gone now until next Monday - but available by phone. I feel sort of abandoned, I can't help it, even though I *rationally* know it is a Holiday weekend. :(
>
> I don't know whether I feel worse about the content of today's session or about the fact that he's gone.
>
> I need suggestions, survival stories, and chocolate. In any order.
> -D
Posted by pegasus on December 30, 2003, at 13:00:56
In reply to Re: I'm lost, posted by Rigby on December 30, 2003, at 10:09:48
> I used to feel very, very dependent upon my therapist. The only thing that seemed to feel worse than the dependency was the anger towards her (and her whole profession) for encouraging it.
>
Boy can I relate. I think because of this dependency, therapy has a definite cruel streak to it. I tried explaining this to my therapist, and it always comes back to me having some issue with being close. Couldn't it just be that the dependency that therapy necessarily sets up is an unavoidable negative side effect. It sounds like most of you struggle with this also. How could it come down to our individual issues like my therapist tries to frame it?> To this day I still question if it's necessarily such a great thing for the client to become so dependent. I can't see any downside for the therapist: heck, they get a steady paying client who they can justify is getting better by "opening up" but we, if we don't feel better get *nothing* but a dependency upon someone who will not and can not be anything to us outside of this room that we rent for X number of dollars an hour. >
Oh, man, I *know*. You said it just right. That's how I feel a lot of the time. I'm going to print this post and show it to my new therapist, and maybe we'll be able to deal with it in a more up front way than I did with my last T.
Also, I am so encouraged by hearing that you eventually got to a place that felt less dependent. I sometimes think that's my main goal in therapy. I was always hoping that eventually the dependency would abate, and then I'd be willing to think about termination on my own (that word is another pet peeve of mine - it's what you say when you fire someone). Too bad my stupid T decided to move away right in the middle of everything.
- p
Posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 14:31:46
In reply to Re: I'm lost, posted by naiad on December 30, 2003, at 9:41:57
<<<<But, boy do I ever worry about my journals being read by someone else. I guard them carefully!
>>>I have an electronic journal on my computer so I have it locked with a password. I type so much faster than I write. sometimes I print pages to take with me but these I guard...
<<<<For me, the plus side of dependency is that I am learning to trust my T. If I thought I could do this on my own (being independent) I would be exactly where I have been for most of my life. I need to learn to listen to myself and feel compassion for myself but am convinced that I need someone to help me. For now, I am dependent on him.
This is me exactly. It is, in fact, a therapy goal. We went over this yesterday, again, about being in touch with my needs and then "allowing" them. This includes needing him and being OK with that.
*sigh* It helps to know I'm not alone. I need more chocolate.
Posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 14:37:19
In reply to Re: I'm lost, posted by Rigby on December 30, 2003, at 10:09:48
<<<I suppose being aware of your discomfort with this dependency might be a good thing--a good issue to work through; chances are if you're uncomfortable with it you'll work through it--consciously or not you're brain and heart just won't want to stay there.
It is one of the MAIN issues we are working on. But trust/dependency is pretty hard for me. I know there is a middle ground, sometimes I think I'm there, then things get so intense and personal and scary...I'm back to needing to check to make sure he is OK and handling all of this and not bailing on me. That is the "need" for me.
I'm glad you found the middle ground. Do you have a map?
Posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 14:45:50
In reply to Re: I'm lost » DaisyM, posted by Poet on December 30, 2003, at 9:17:19
Thanks for the feedback and ideas. I'll try them. I'm hiding in my office with my Rod Stewart American Songbook tape getting absolutely nothing done. I've written and written. I feel like a soap opera.
The irony of some of this is that my journal entry for Saturday wondered if I was ready to cut back to once a week again...then life got up-ended. Well, at least that question is answered for now.
I'm really, really, really ready to get off this emotional roller-coaster. I don't know if it is my life or therapy. Or both. And I don't know what to do about it.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 30, 2003, at 15:23:38
In reply to Re: I'm lost: Fallsfall, Karen, Poet, posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 14:45:50
Daisy,
Hi Sweetie! I know that at times things seems overwhelming, almost unbearable. But in regards to therapy, look at what you have accomplished. Where were you before you started? And look at your progress now. Your therapist told you before that sometimes you move forward and sometimes you move slightly back. It takes time. When you have a rough session, you leave feeling at odds. You're hurt, distraught and vulnerable. It happens to all of us. Your therapist knew this, I suspect that's why he told you to call him if you need to.
Even though the process hurts, don't give up on it. Think not only of the good you'll be doing for yourself, but also for your family. You're worth it. Hang in there hun!
Posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 17:24:50
In reply to I'm lost, posted by DaisyM on December 29, 2003, at 22:35:38
Ok, so I'm sitting here trying to feel better about all of this and my Therapist calls..."just checking in." I was so surprised. We talked about yesterday (see I DO need therapy for therapy) and possible strategies for the rest of this week. He made it clear that he didn't think I "needed" him to make it through...just that he knew what he had encouraged me to do was hard and he wanted to make sure I was OK, whether I had decided to follow through or not.
So, it is still a long way until Monday but I feel better. And lucky to have the support. Both from here and from him.
Thanks.
Posted by Dinah on December 30, 2003, at 19:47:44
In reply to Now I'm a little less lost, posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 17:24:50
Wow. I'm impressed. I'm not sure that my therapist has ever initiated a phone call. Even when I left his office a quivering wreck.
I'm glad he was able to help you. Maybe he was trying to show you how very ok it was to call him if you need him. Do you think that you will feel freer to call him now that he initiated a call to you?
Posted by fallsfall on December 30, 2003, at 19:52:41
In reply to Now I'm a little less lost, posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 17:24:50
I'm so glad that he called you.
Please feel that you can call him if you need him. Clearly he knows that you are in a rough place, and equally clearly, he wants to be there to help. Don't be a martyr - we love you *because* you are human.
Posted by Poet on December 30, 2003, at 19:57:22
In reply to Now I'm a little less lost, posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 17:24:50
Daisy
Definitely some psychic sending and receiving of messages between the two of you. If you feel lost again, try to remember that he called to check in and that he'll be there for you on Monday. He really seems to care about you, which is fantastic.
Poet
Posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 21:58:00
In reply to Re: Now I'm a little less lost » DaisyM, posted by Poet on December 30, 2003, at 19:57:22
Thanks for the really nice messages and support. I'll keep reading them about calling if I need to. I wish he had email, I'm so much better at writing down what I want to say. He says that is why he doesn't have it...he wants the personal connection.
Dinah -- I'm impressed that he called too...you don't think he reads Babble, do you? Nah...
Falls -- being allowed to be *human* is new for me so you have no idea how touched I am by that statement and I promise, no martyr's here.
Poet -- Psychic could be good, right? Hopefully not too intrusive though. It is weird to think someone might be worried about me, that is typically my role to play.
Now I have to deal with the content of the session, which will require courage on my part. At least I know I have support.
Thanks all!
-D
Posted by Kalamatianos on December 31, 2003, at 0:40:24
In reply to Re: I'm lost ... but not so far away... » Kalamatianos, posted by Elle2021 on December 30, 2003, at 5:32:59
Please accept that you could have gone several different ways, and the way you did is that you accept your T as earning their position of authority over you. Tells me you are responsible for your troubles and are not worried about your safety even though you are concerned about your progress. The notion of being "enough" seems to baffle you. I guess I'm asking something toooo abstract. There will be internal conflictedness until you are certain about "enough".
OBTW, its good to see you are back...
Posted by Kalamatianos on December 31, 2003, at 1:30:05
In reply to Re: I'm lost ... but not so far away... » Kalamatianos, posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 1:17:31
Note: I'm asking you to make a picture in which you act out the fantasy of ordering them around. I do this anytime I am confused about what might happen to me. I get to sorta see the future. You telling me what you see is safe; ordering your T around *for-real* ain't gonna work, ya' know.
Also, not seeing yourself as "enough" can leave you internally conflicted in most situations. This is not bad nor good; just is. Trust me that I was so glad to first hear someone speak about "enough" and then wake up one day 10 years later and say, "A-hah! I am 'enough', at least for today". It's a great feeling! I've never looked back!
"Selfish" as a label, when you are willing to go out of your way to help, is counter-intuitive. The implication is that you are still obligated to the attitudes and beliefs of someone else instead of your own. I only hear my own voice in my mind now, since I suspended all opinions long enough to sort out which ones are mine and which ones belong to someone else. They were the sources of those many voices in my head.
People just assume that we are obligated for life, except, then I wouldn't have my own life. I would be living for who ever was demanding that I stay obligated.
Note: Obligations are always one-way. My plans, goals, and personal contracts, are all two-way. They also allow for optional results.
Obligations are someone telling me how they want the results from me, with no wishy-washy optional outcomes. Life doesn't work that way. Life might throw me a curve before the end of a project, so I need options available in order to keep making progress. I couldn't feel good about asserting my needs until I felt "enough".
Mark my words: if you detect someone is a control freak, they are internally conflicted and have strong feelings of not being "enough". They substitute loudness for cooperation; they seem angry but are usually only loud. This translates into authority by those held obligated to them. Know anybody like this?
Posted by fallsfall on December 31, 2003, at 8:24:15
In reply to Thanks -you guys are the best!, posted by DaisyM on December 30, 2003, at 21:58:00
Daisy,
I have been known to write something out, change it until I like it and then pick up the phone and read it over the phone...
Wishing you peace.
Posted by DaisyM on December 31, 2003, at 12:30:31
In reply to Re: I'm lost ... but not so far away... » DaisyM, posted by Kalamatianos on December 31, 2003, at 1:30:05
Sometimes being a control freak is creating a sense of safety for yourself, whether you realize this or not.
I think part of what I am working on is seperating responsibilities from obligations. I am so good at being responsible to everyone but myself. As in, "take care of yourself" to me *feels* like something I don't know how to do and will fail at. This is most likely because I've let *me* get lost...who I am and what I really want, because I am so responsible. I know that is a muddled explanations and until I know who I am how will I know when I am enough??
Is color a factor in all of this or in your question? What does this mean?
Posted by DaisyM on December 31, 2003, at 20:06:18
In reply to Re: Thanks -you guys are the best! » DaisyM, posted by fallsfall on December 31, 2003, at 8:24:15
That is a great idea, don't know why I had the two so completely disconnected.
My Therapist suggested the same thing you did for coping, write journal entries like I'm talking/writing directly to him...it might even be more freeing. I asked him what happens when he then "forgets" about something that I *thought* I told him...but only actually wrote down. He said he covers well, not to worry, and besides, people get mad at him all the time for stuff he did in their dreams so he is use to this kind of disconnect. LOL
My "homework" is really hard. I need to have a conversation with someone about how their plans are going to affect me -- and why I'm so freaked out about the changes that are coming. I don't want to take the wind out of their sail...so I've just been supportive and haven't said much about my concerns. I think my Therapist is going to kill me soon though if I don't speak up -- on Monday he said I needed to recognize that I was being retraumatized again, and he was going to "make" me write 1,000 times: My needs count too. Then he backs off and acknowledges how hard this is for me.
*sigh* *SIGH* I think I'll practice what I need to say by writing it down. Then I'm gonna color.
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